[yankytrash]

Been contemplating my next purchase of a cheapo 1911 series 70 lately. Kimbers and what-not are out of my pricerange, and I do all my own "smithing" (if that's what you wanna call it! :D ).

What's the deal about these Rock Island Armory 1911's? I've handled'm at gunshows, they seem to feel/fit fine. They seem to be milspec. They're cheap (~$260 - $300).

Why do 1911 fans hate'm? Are they unfixably inaccurate? Are they somehow dangerous? Do they not last long? What would be wrong with, say, purchasing a new RIA 1911 and fitting a new barrel/bushing to it, and perhaps a few stone strokes in the internals?

Any experiences with the RIA 1911's? The only answer I seem to get from 1911 guru's is, "They're crap." Which, unfortunately, leaves a lot of questions of mine unanswered.

[Detritus]

remebre something when looking at ANY item that has a pronounced "following"......

those that are called/considered by some to be "(insert item) Gurus" could in many (but not all) cases be more acurately called "oppinoinated, vocal, (insert item) Snobs".

just b/c "Mr. blank" (trying to pick a neutral name) who is always talking about his 1911s and what they'll do, how long he's owned, tinkered with, ect 1911s, and how much better the ones HE has are than some other brand, says something doesn't mean that there is anying behind his comments other than snobbery. or as has been said in a 1911forum thread here (http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=40243&goto=newpost) with regard to RIA, may have something to do with some folks not beleivng that a Fillipino company could make ANYTHING worth a damn.

remeber this... if the person answering does not, has not, and refuses to on basis of heresay, own an item you are requesting information on. IGNORE THAT PERSON'S COMMENTS, they are NOT based on experience. "a friend of a friend told me" and "everybody on this other board said.." don't hold water.

over the past year i have posted at various times and places trying to get information on another budget price 1911 (the Auto-ordnance/thompson) and the replies were 80% thirdhand info and "bluster and BS" and 20% real honest to goodness firsthand reveiws of the gun.

i won't buy any colt made after WW2 b/c every single Colt product i've owned made after 1945 has fallen to pieces in under a year (everything but the 1943 production 1911A1 that i gave to a former girlfriend for graduation from flight school) . does this mean colt is crap?? NO it just means MY luck with colt is poor. but then again Colt DID have the M-16 contract taken away over QC problems!! :barf:

my take is this......truth be known the likes of RIA, Charles Daly, (the other phillipines made guns), and Auto-Ordnance (american made) are the lines that allow you to pay for the gun without paying for the rollmark. even with Springfield Armory is guilty of "selling the name not the gun".

if not for my wife wanting a gun with 3-dot sights i'd be looking at buying either an A-O or one of the RIA guns.

sorry to be long winded, but i needed to say that. time for me to go hide from the flame throwers now...... :uhoh: :scrutiny:

[yankytrash]

Man, you know that's exactly what I was thinkin', and you know I'm going to buy the Rock Island anyway, regardless of heresay. I'm like you. You got a Century FAL that runs like a top, regardless of the heresay of Century QC? I do. I also had a Springfield 1911A1 (Milspec Operator?) that lasted all of 75 rounds before the first repairs were needed. Luckily, my pair of Norinco's kept me shooting that day (and still do).

Glad to hear someone say it out loud, thanks.;)

[SIC TRANSIT GLORIA MUNDI]

I own one. It functions reliably. Fit and finish also very good. No discernable difference in accuracy compared to other much-higher priced 1911s I have fired. I am very pleased with the value I received for the money (I paid $349 total plus $20 DROS). I would recommend one to anyone. Of course, sooner or later the numerous 1911 snobs will show up in this thread telling you anything that costs so much less than they paid for their ( insert brand name here) must be an unreliable piece of junk. You'll have to decide who to believe.

[makarov]

Most of the posts about them are actually very positive on the 1911 forum. For a few dollars more you could get a Dan Wesson Pointman Minor or Major or maybe the new Panther. They have better sights, so unless you really want a Mil-Spec you might check into them. RIA's are $350 plus shipping plus transfer right now. They are right on the borderline for me, I wish they were cheaper. As is, I will probably save up another few bucks and get a DW.

[Longbow]

If you are considering a DW, ' might as well get an STI Trojan. For a little bit more :D, it has an adj. sights, slimmer grips and nicer trigger pull than DW. But, if you wanna stay on budget, get an RIA or CD.
The CD with adj. sights (Bomar?) and other extras goes for $480. Fit and finish is good, actually a lot better than the older ones I've handled. Good luck!

[one-shot-one]

i bought a charles daly (ria clone) it wau the officers size (cs) modle and has a reverse barrle bushing. took it to the range and at shot # 48 the bushing cracked around its raidius, separated and sent the frount half + spring down range. now before the 1911 clan say i told you so i have had a full size colt with a regular bushing break off the legs and send the plug and spring down range the same way (don't know how many rounds had been though that gun). cd has my gun and it'll be at least 8 weeks to get it back. take it for what it (free advice) is worth, but i'll stick to my 9mm for self defense.

[Longbow]

one-shot-one,
That phenomenon is common amongst officer size guns (regardless of brand). That's why I never own one, I've seen alot of them breaking that way. It got something to do w/ the slide weight, I think its too light and too short of stroke, so battering is excessive. Stay with commander or full size ones. Well, at least CD is taking care of it. Good luck!

[noklue3]

Yankytrash:
I don't have an RIA, but I do have a Charles Daly EMS (commander size) and also a DanWesson Patriot Expert (full size) 1911. Both were great deals for the money. The Daly for under $400 has what I was looking for and has been a great pistol. Is it as well made as the Dan Wesson? No, but it cost half as much and well worth what I paid and I will keep it. As others have pointed out, there are alot of "snobs" out there who will criticize anything other then what THEY think is the "best and only". Get the RIA and enjoy it. Good luck.

Art

[Sean Smith]

I'm sure this will make me alot of friends :D , but I would strongly suggest avoiding buying the third world junk brands like RIA, Auto-Ordinance, Charles Daly, Armscor and so forth. Do some work? Sure. Are they all made of second-rate materials? Yes. Are they a good value? No. But they are cheap - not the same thing.

This isn't a question of snobbery, but rather a question of metalurgy and being anywhere near proper specs on any of the critical dimensions. I'm not telling you that you will be a chump if you don't spend $1,000 on a 1911. But I am telling you that the odds are against you if you think a RIA or Chucky D will be anything but a paperweight in the making.

You should either spring for a $450 Springfield Armory Mil-Spec, or just admit a 1911 is not in the cards and get a CZ-75B for about $350. At least that way, you will get a good gun for your money, and not just a cheap one.

To summarize: crummy metal, dimensions way out of spec, parts fitted monkey-style, inaccurate, unreliable and ugly to boot. What else do you want, a cookie?

If you HAVE to go low-rent, hunt down a used Norinco, at least the steel used in them is considered good.

[noklue3]

Sean:
Since alot of the Springfield parts come from Brazil, do you need to find another company to recommend??:D

Art

[Nightcrawler]

A lot of Springfield parts...the entire FRAME is made in Brazil. Brazil, while a developing nation, is still considered 3rd World.

Auto Ordnances are made in the United States, AFAIK. By Kahr, now.

Just out of curiosity, Sean, what do you base these statements on? If it's your opinion, just say so, if it's a fact, you need to prove it.

Espeically the "inaccurate" comment, and others. You've tested one of these pistols thoroughly?

Ugly? They look like every other 1911 to me. The Rock Island is a parkerized 1911 with GI sights and a spur hammer. I don't think that's ugly at all....

[Longbow]

Mr. Smith,
Auto Ordnance is made here in the U.S. and We are not considered third world last time I checked. Well..okay maybe some areas are!:D :D
I guess this is another expert advice from a non-owning patron!:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Sean Smith]

I knew alot of people would approve. :D

Own one? Hell no. But I don't need to own a Yugo to know they stink! :neener:

I should have said "third world quality" instead of just "third world." That would have been clearer. The problem isn't where they are made per se, but rather that the product stinks on all levels if you subject it to some scrutiny. And yeah, I have.

Ask a qualified pistolsmith what they think of those "wonderful values." The fact that most self-respecting pistolsmiths won't touch any of the above should be a hint... they don't want their name on anything that is prone to fail no matter what they do to it. Old Norincos are a notable exception... Wilson used to customize them, for instance. Hunt around and you can find one for cheap.

Lots of Yugos can make it to the corner liquor store. But that doesn't mean that it is smart to depend on one.

[Nightcrawler]

So you haven't actually tested a recent production version of one of these pistols then? Like Taurus, their quality has reportedly gone up in recent years.

So, everything you said was your OPINION, because you can't prove any of it. The OPINION of the gunsmith doesn't equal "proof", either.

So, you'd never buy one. Okay, thank you for your input. But I do believe the poster was looking for opinions of people that have actually used these pistols, not second hand information.

In any case, I wish somebody'd test a Rock Island. SWAT gave an Auto Ordnance 1911 a good review not too long ago; apparently the ownership of Kahr has done them good.

[Sean Smith]

Read my post closer. :rolleyes:

[Nightcrawler]

You say you've scrutinized them, but give no details. In what ways is the metallurgy inferior? Do parts crack or break? If there's a specific problem or problems that occur with usage, please tell people that are thinking about buying one. If it sucks, say how it sucks.

[yankytrash]

One of the reasons I'm leaning toward the "cheaper" (no matter which way you're looking at the term) is because of what I've experienced thus far.

I had an SA Milspec which was, well to say the least, junk. A standard ambi safety wouldn't drop in, the plunger tube flew off one day, and a new "milspec" plunger tube's pins were too wide apart to fit it back in. Oh, I made it fit anyway, and luckily a freind of mine wanted a Springfield frame for a project gun.

I can say it was accurate, but I had a rough time back at the range only having one GI mag that ran flawlessly through it, but 6 8rd Chip McCormicks that didn't get along with it (typical story you hear on the net about last round FTF, last round FTE, or slide not locking back).

The next experience with a "quality" 1911 isn't really my experience per sa, but I was close to the situation.

My stepfather, while I was growing up, had a Colt fullsize. I remember watching Three's Company on the couch in my underwear when my stepfather comes in the front door after popping off a few rounds in the front yard. In his hand are a slide and a frame, the end of the slide noticeably blackened. He opened the door to his library and chucked it in a corner without even taking a step in the threshold. The TV got turned to his news station, and not a word was spoken. I never saw that pistol again. Not sure what happened there, so maybe I'm speaking out of turn. I was too young to shoot the 45, so I didn't pursue the matter.


Meanwhile, I have two Norincos. Reportedly great metallurgy and finish, if you don't mind fitting a few replacement parts. I haven't had to fit one piece in either Norinco. I've added high-ride beavertails, two-piece guide rods, ambi safeties, magwell flares, grip screws and sleeves. Everything dropped right in, even a drop-in match barrel/bushing combo. Funny thing, supposedly the Norinco has oddball-sized grip screws. I replaced all my screw inserts on my first Norinco because of one I buggered up in a hasty reassembly one day and they went right in. My second Norinco was supposedly worked on by a real gunsmith, and two of the inserts were stripped.

Just goes to show how valuable some smith's advice can be, eh? Don't get me wrong, I'm not burnin' smiths, but please don't tell me to heed their advice. If I took their advice, I wouldn't even be working on my own pistols.

So that's where I'm coming from. My only experience with two "quality" 1911's and two "cheap" 1911's has probably been, well, a little different than most shooter's experiences, but it's making me the underdog fan regardless.

[nvcdl]

Seems like most of the 1911's come with suspect quality small parts nowadays, seems to me the frame/slide combo is the most important part of the purchase.

I recently purchased a Mil-Spec and sent it straight to the smith to have it worked on. I am replacing the barrel. slide stop, extractor, grips, bushing, trigger. sear, hammer, mainspring housing ,etc.. I'm going to try the factory sights but may end up replacing those also.

The Norincos had a good reputation and proabbly used superior metalugery, the PI guns don't have quite the same rep.

I have heard that the Century Arms import 1911 goes for $225 wholesale - that may be the way to go.

I would probably go for a Systema 1927 if I wanted a $300 1911.

[DAL]

I have an RIA full-size 1911 and, for its intended purpose, I am satisfied with it. What's its intended purpose? A fun gun, range gun, maybe an IDPA gun, but NOT a defense gun (it's too big to carry, at least for me).

After replacing the too-tiny sights, it has proven to be a decent shooter. This is my first, and possibly only, 1911, at least for a long while. I really like the ergonomics of 1911s in general, but I'll leave the role of self-defense gun to either my S&W 642 or my Glock 26.

As to the RIA's longevity, I haven't fired it enough to tell yet. But over the next couple of years, I plan to remedy that situation.
DAL

[Stainless Steel]

Detritus:

Check out the following link. Scroll down to
the article posted by 'jaredr'.

Thread from jaredr:
http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=39696

Tread about soft slides:
http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22959

There are many threads like this. Did you
bother to do a search before you bought?

Do I own one? NO! I do my homework before
buying what is basically a bomb that you hold
in your hand. If that makes me a snob, then
so be it.

Do I know what it is like to be bit by a
rattle snake. NO! Do I need first hand
experience to know that it's not a smart
thing to do? NO!

Stainless Steel.

http://home.mindspring.com/~colt45acp/nra1.gif

Edited to fix links.

[Henotter_Titiov]

Does 1911 grip size vary greatly across brands? I ask because my trigger finger is on the short side although I have fired an 'N' frame .357 S&W without difficulty, but I just can't tell from the photos, so I hoped perhaps someone could provide me with some expectation about the 1911 grip v an 'N' frame Smith? :scrutiny:

[fed_wif_a_sig]

I dont post much, but I do have to say alot of people do judge weapons hard when they cost less. In my life I have had the pleasure of owning 1911s worked over by Bill Wilson himslef and the fine folks at Nowlin. They shot great, but at the same time I have also owned pistols that others said were junk, just because they cost less.

Have we forgotten all the trash talking Glock got when they released the G-17? If we'd have had message boards then, wow how we forget.

I read a detailed report where a Rock Island was put up against a Kimber and a Wilson and you know what? It did the same thing they both did.

Also, when someone says they saved up the pennys for X amount, why do we insist on saying spend more for X. The Rock Island 1911s have held up fine for the folks in the Philippines for years, and having lived there for a long part of my life, they have made fantastic weapons for a price we cant touch. I still own a homemade air rifle that will put a 22cal pellet deep into a phone book, because it was all they were allowed to have.

When we all ran off to wheel guns, and double stacks, the PI stuck with the 1911 in mass and have been making them a long time. So I am not suprised and as soon as I can find on, will be buying their new tactical 5".

I'll go back into my cage.

Steve

[Cousin Mike]

...for something to start with, sure. Maybe to build off of and tinker with. I'm done with cheap 1911's though. Just my personal thing, I suppose. I bought an Auto Ordnance 1911 last year, and it works just as well as any $1,000+ 1911... I liked it too for a while, until someone put a custom 1911 in my hands and let me shoot that. The AO is not as nice to shoot as a higher-end 1911.

The features you pay for with the nicer production and/or custom guns are worth it in my opinion... but if you just want a 1911 that's reliable and reasonably accurate, I don't see anything wrong with the less-expensive stuff.. I just know from my own experience with GI 1911's that when it comes to my money, I'll save and buy a nicer one next time.

[SpiderJohn]

I am nearing 5000 rounds through mine, with no trouble whatsoever, no ftf's, ftf, or fte's. NO MODIFICATIONS TO INTERNALS. I changed the sights, but that is it. I use it as a carry gun all the time. I would not hesitate to recommend one. I figure I got my money's worth and then some.

[kir_kenix]

my little brother got a RAI 5" parkerized for his birthday this last year and he's modded it out to be a nicer shooter then most of the 1911's ive ever shot. they are all mil-spec and he replaced EVERYTHING (except the barrel...go figure) over the course of the last year. i really wish i had a picture of it, but all that you would be able to see different would be the ss skeletonized trigger/hammer, "gator"(i think) grips, and adjustable sights. it is a great shooter, but ill bet he has $950 in his $250 pistol...lol. i considered using one of these as a build-up-in-progress...but have never gotten around to it. i do remember that the trigger pull was pretty terrible when he first got it tho. ill bet it broke at 8.5# or so (seriously...it was that bad), but that was easily fixed by a careful disasembly and a serious deburring project. i have put pbly 1500-2000 rounds thru this pistol (tho most of them were post brownells shopping spree) and i must say i was seriously impressed. i wouldnt feel bad suggesting this as a build gun or a plain-jane-no-frills-no-options-gi-spec shooter.

[garymc]

I just got a RIA M1911-A1. I can't get the first shell to feed into it. The extractor looks like the problem. I guess I'll get to try out their limited lifetime warranty at my expense for the shipping. It looks real nice, though.

[TireFryer]

garymc:
get in contact with Ivan over @ RIA and he'll take care of this...whether over the phone or by having you ship the RIA back to them to resolve the issue. Top notch service...another reason i am contemplating getting their newly released 5" Tactical model! :evil:

[MD_Willington]

I occasionally shoot .45, so I have considered purchasing one. I also know I can get a hold of a representative through this forum or the 1911 forum and have any problems taken care of.

MD

[soutex50]

As a previously Colt only 1911 fan and experienced gunsmith, I took the Rock Island route and still ask myself how a gun that looks and feels and shoots so well only cost me $325. I have to remind myself I bought a gun "cheaply" not a "cheap" gun.
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p53/soutex50/new021.jpg
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p53/soutex50/new019.jpg

She'll be fine sleeping with my other 1911's.

[White Horseradish]

Sean, in the last thread on this subject I have asked you for some proof of what your are talking about. You have never provided any. I don't see you giving any here.

So, are you refusing to back up your statements with facts, or do you just not have any facts?