[amprecon]

I watched the Navy Seals III documentary on the Discovery Channel last weekend and team member Lanskey said, (not verbatum and to the effect) that he hears all the time about, 9mm this and 9mm that, and that the 9mm isn't an effective handgun cartridge. He then goes on to say, but when we put two rounds through the heart and two through the head, all that talk really doesn't matter.
I guess when your that good with shot placement, the caliber really doesn't matter. Especially if it doesn't kill you, I'm sure they could come up with a million plus other options and compromise on how to effect your death. If I were a target, I would just hope his gun worked rather than experience the "other options".

[10-Ring]

Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement! You hear it all the time & it makes alot of sense!

[Longbow]

Ditto! I belong to the same camp!

[blades67]

There have been instances of individuals being shot seven to 12 times with .45 ACP and having to be restrained on their way to the hospital for surgery, and living. This kind of thing doesn't sell magazines so it is downplayed. When it happens with a 9mm it gets played up and the 9mm is compared to the .45 ACP and that sells magazines.:rolleyes:

[Blueduck]

Navy Seals Condone 9mm

Alaskan Seals still prefer fish.

[larryw]

So next time I'm without one of my 45s, I'll feel very safe having a SEAL with his 9 at my side! :D

[Pendragon]

I didnt pick the .45 because of some fancy group and I dont disregard the 9mm because any other group likes it or hates it.

It's nice that they have an opinion...

[Ian11]

Perhaps its the fact we're not Navy Seals that we try to compensate with our .40, .357, 10mm, and .45's.

As much as I feel "comforted" with either my G23 or Colt 1911 I do feel like I overestimate their defensive potential. Maybe it is better that I get faster follow up shots with 9mm's?? I don't know. But I do enjoy shooting a more powerful cartridge at the range.

[stans]

It does not surprise me that the Navy Seals prefer the 9mm. They helped develop the 147 gr subsonic round for use in their sound suppressed 9mm weapons. Plus, the 9 is the standard NATO pistol round, so they can find it pretty much anywhere they go. Two rounds in the heart followed by two rounds in the head, yep, that will put a man down. Shot placement is the key factor in ending a confrontation.

[Tom C.]

Don't forget the minor issue of plausable deniability. We didn't do it!

[seeker_two]

It does not surprise me that the Navy Seals prefer the 9mm.

What surprises me is how they can get those big flippers of theirs in the trigger guard...:D

[El Tejon]

The STs want what? Go get it for them!

[chevrofreak]

I never was a 9mm guy, and I always see threads about the 9mm guys defending the cartridge. To me, if the cartridge is good, there is no need to defend it.

That, however, was before i bought my Glock 17. I now love the 9mm, and believe that it has adequate stopping power.

Another great thing I love about 9mm, is that it can penetrate body armor out to further distances than .45ACP can.

[Double Naught Spy]

I have seen that episode several times. The Seal doing the talking is something of an idiot in his defense of the 9 mm which he notes is often criticized. I believe the statement was something along the lines of a person won't be able to talk much about how ineffective the round is after a Navy Seal puts two rounds through your heart and one through your head.

That is an awfully cocky attitude. If the Seal spokesman in question was so darned good, then why would he waste all that ammo making multiple shots when he only needed the one shot to the head in the first place? Simple. The seals are human and can't always place the shots where they need to be or the shots won't penetrate due to body armor. Basically, he described the failure to stop drill where 2 center of chest shots fail to put down the bad guy and so you must transition to the head. If the seals were that darned good, they would not bother with the wasted shots to the 'heart' which may be enough of a delay to let the bad guy shoot back before the seal could transition to the head.

Don't get me wrong. I am not dissing the seals, only the cocky attitude of the seal spokesman and the things he said. I am well aware that seals are very well trained warriors.

[buzz_knox]

First off, it's SEAL, not seal. SEALs don't have as much blubber, aren't as cuddly, and work for peanuts, not fish.

Second, the reason for the triple tap is to make sure the target is down. Maybe he's wearing armor; maybe the round to the head bounces off the skull. But the probability of all three failing? Not likely. The triple tap is designed to minimize the possibility of those events while maximizing efficiency and movement.

[ojibweindian]

While in San Diego in the early 90's doing my bit for God and Country, I had the pleasure of hanging out with a few SEALs I met while working at NHSD, better known as Balboa.

Great guys, funnier than hell. Got to hear lots of good sea stories.

But one thing is for sure, they were not idiots.

[krept]

I think one center shot to the head or heart with a 9mm and it's pretty much curtains for anyone.

But if you can get two to the heart and one to the head, you are either really, really good or have a bad guy on low-wattage.

My feeling is that most of the time, the target isn't just presenting COM like a paper target. The situation very well might be a couple rounds being exchanged, one of them hits... the shootee scampers off to another defensive position or rolls around in agony until shooter finishes the job.

If getting a COM shot means losing hard cover, I'll take a wing or leg every time and wait for a better shot.

tactics--> shot placement --------------------------------------->caliber

[El Tejon]

I wouldn't call a SEAL an idiot, unless I had a 2 county head start. Maybe not even then.

We should call SEELs idiots.:D

[Longbow]

Double Naught Spy,
When I was in active duty in the Navy (I'm an HM), I had the oppurtunity to witness SEAL's live fire training. They do emphasize on speed and accuracy and I'm impressed w/ what I saw. I'm also an IPSC competitor and had seen those top shooters perform, so it takes so much for me to be impressed as far as fast and accurate shooting is concerned. With that said, I wouldn't call that SEAL operator on TV an idiot. I'm sure he got what it takes to do what he said he can.

On a side note,
I've seen an episode of Real TV where an officer shot a BG with a .45 cal. (he actually mentioned the cal.) in the stomach area after the BG tried to stab him and tried to get to his .45 cal pistol. The BG engage the officer in a struggle after being shot for a good 3 min. or so. The officer eventually managed to handcuff him (great show of restraint, IMO). Surprisingly when help arrived, the BG still managed to get up and walk to the ambulance.
After seing that show I become a believer in shot placement.
Yup, its true, even a .45 can fail! There's no majic bullet/caliber, shot placement is the key!

[OF]

Got to use your peanut joke twice now in one week, Buzz. :D

- Gabe

[buzz_knox]

It's been a slow week, so I take every opportunity I can get. ;)

[Destructo6]

I don't know, I've seen someone successfully use the Jedi Mind trick on one SEAL. It was difficult to suppress the laughter.

Here's a direct quote from the same SEAL on another occasion:
You people are weaker than my sister. And, you know, she's a girl!

I'll add another vote for shot placement being key, though.

[Kentucky Rifle]

Only TWO counties? I shudder to think about calling a SEAL an idiot, even two states away! These are very intelligent, very motivated, and VERY hard to kill guys. I believe the SEAL in question could do EXACTLY what he said with a 9MM. In under one second, too. No doubt in my mind at all.

KR

[Navy joe]

I have seen that episode several times. The Seal doing the talking is something of an idiot in his defense of the 9 mm which he notes is often criticized

Actually, everything that came out of that man's mouth was idiotic. He was so different than the SEALs I have known that I was beginning to wonder if he really was one. If he was, it's clear they left him in the arms room to do History channel shows while the real SEALs were out working. Total blowhard.

[ahenry]

That is an awfully cocky attitude. I’ve never met a SEAL that wasn’t cocky as Hell. Of course by and large they can back it up but it doesn’t change the fact that their attitude makes them unpleasant to deal with. I think there might be a SEAL or two floating around this board, and I mean no offense to them. I'm just stating my experience with SEALs.

[STEVE M]

I think people are comparing apples to oranges when they talk

about what SEAL's, DELTA, or HRT ect. uses. These guys not

only are highly trained BUT: they are going in as a group (against

hardened terrorists who operate in larger groups) with

explosives, gases, body armour, and sub-guns / assualt rifles,

and many other high-tech toys. There handgun needs are very

different than a lone civilian against 1-3 common criminals.

Also I have seen other episodes of the History Channels SEALS

and the sposkman was the same guy they had as a L.A. County

SWAT member. Don't know if this is the same guy though.

[Wilhelm]

On a side note,
I've seen an episode of Real TV where an officer shot a BG with a .45 cal. (he actually mentioned the cal.) in the stomach area after the BG tried to stab him and tried to get to his .45 cal pistol. The BG engage the officer in a struggle after being shot for a good 3 min. or so. The officer eventually managed to handcuff him (great show of restraint, IMO). Surprisingly when help arrived, the BG still managed to get up and walk to the ambulance.
After seing that show I become a believer in shot placement.
Yup, its true, even a .45 can fail! There's no majic bullet/caliber, shot placement is the key!





I saw the same show and that was the officers fault for not shooting that guy a 2nd and 3rd time. I was amazed at how the officer conducted himself in that situation.



Wilhelm

[seeker_two]

Do the SEALS still use the S&W .357's? They were pretty good w/ those...:cool:

[2xTap]

Well, I will say this, If you went to any of the Teams, be they Delta, Seals, Army SF, or what have you and ask a group of them what they would want instead of what it is they might be issued........you can pretty much bet the general consensus wouldn't specify a 9mm!

I myself personally, believe one of the greatest injustices inflicted upon our armed services was the adoption of the M9 Beretta.

2xTap

[Blueduck]

yet we have yet to lose a single war because of it;)

[Blackhawk]

I condone 9mm too. Placement is key with anything.

I've been shot at with 37mm, rockets, and small arms fire to no effect. They all had something in common. They missed.

Placement! :D

[isaidme]

I have not met a person yet that will let me shoot them with my 9mm

[Harold Mayo]

Keep in mind that they don't ever expect to use a handgun, either. If you have M14s, M16s, M4s, MP5s, etc. to choose from, then you ARE NOT going to use a handgun. Remember, folks...handguns are DEFENSIVE weapons. Despite the whole SOCOM pistol thing (which no one in the military seems to like) where the adminstrators specified a pistol for use as an offensive weapon, no one with any sense is going to take a pistol to a rifle fight when they have a choice in the matter.

For my 2 cents, I have seen very few special ops-type guys who were worth much with a handgun. If they were, it was mostly because they were gun guys to begin with and practiced on their own time and dime. When push comes to shove, you break out a long gun, not a crappy little handgun of ANY caliber.

[Double Naught Spy]

Well Buzz, I really am not too concerned about SEAL or seal. If the guy on the show was trying to be impressive awe-inspiring, he did not do it.

The 'triple tap' as you called it and that you say is to assure the target it down is fine, only it isn't a triple tap but a double COC and then a single to the head as was demonstrated in the show with a clear transition and delay in the shots between the chest and head.

I still think the guy was fairly idiotic as displayed by his attitude. His comments that you wont' put down they 9 mm round after a seal puts two rounds through your heart and one through your head is passive-aggressive blowhard crap. Instead of describing the drill in functional terms, like you did Buzz, the gun defends the 9 mm round with a threat. That is pure unnecessary crap. If the only way he can defend the round or explain its use is by saying that I, as the viewer, won't have much to say after he shoots me several times, well then I stand by my comments about the guy being an idiot. He may be very well trained, but as for public speaking he is an idiot.

Look at is this way, the guy is trying to defend the use of 9 mm ammo on targets. When he made the threat of saying that I, the viewer, won't be asking any questions after he shoots me simply shows that he is lacking. Let's face it, you shoot me or anyone else twice in the heart and once in the head with any number of calibers and I won't be asking any questions, but that does not mean the calibers are not very effective compared to others. So, the guy apparently is unable to articulate any sort of explanation other than one involving violence. In short, he failed to actually answer the question as to the 9 mm's effectiveness or substantiate whether it was more or less effective than any other round.

And once again, the three shot drill is designed to make sure the person is down, no doubt, but it is also designed to compensate for not being able to always hit the intended target, hence why two shots are to the heart area (to stop heart, cause bleeding out) and then one to the head if the heart shots didn't do the job and the reason there are two shots to the heart or COC is in case they head can't be hit. Part of the reasons shots to the head or to the heart may not work are because of body armor, deflection of the round by hard tissues, or inability of the round (9 mm, Hmm?) to penetrate adequately to the appropriate organs.

[trapshooter]

I've seen this show, and the segment in question, a few times. Has it occurred to anyone that we have not seen the entire quantity of video/film shot for this segment? Maybe they had asked the guy about the 'ineffective, weak, candy-***** 9mm' compared to the manly .45 ACP?

I'm not a huge fan of the 9mm. But I own one. I wouldn't want to get shot with one, any number of times. Or a .22LR, or a .380, or a .32....you get the idea.

Maybe this guy had been pressed a bit about the 'stupid military decision' to go with the 9mm? When on film, I would probably choose to at least support the decisions of my superiors, even if I didn't privately agree. How the heck do we know?

OTOH, maybe he is cocky. I'd be cocky too, if I could legitimately pin on a budweiser. Which I can't. I also know that I would not call anyone who could an idiot to his face, without a huge smile on my own, and even then I'd be careful. Of course, the errornet is different, and you can do stuff here that you would never do for real....

[Nero Steptoe]

SEALS don't "condone" 9mm's; they use them zealously.

Furthermore, "cocky" is considered a required attribute for SEALS. Per our old friend, Plato, "He who knows not, and knows not that he knows not is a fool. He who knows and knows not that he knows is the greatest fool of all."

[BHP9]

Here is a post that I picked up some time ago that proves that the .45 is not always superior in all situations. As a matter of fact I often wonder wether 1/10 of an inch in diameter is really all that superior when comparing the 9mm to the .45acp. As you will see this test is nothing new, it was conducted way back in 1948. I think that the low penetration factor of the .45 was a real concern to many of the worlds militaries and that the 9mm's higher velocity and penetration was a real plus when using the sub-machine guns. Interchangability between a pisol and sub-gun of the same caliber was also a factor. In other words why have a .45 cal. pistol (even if it was surmised to be slightly superior in a pistol) and a different caliber in a sub-gun when it wasknown that the 9mm was the superior sub-gun caliber in terms of flatter trajectory, superior penetration, and lower recoil and therefore more controllability.



Here is the 1948 test

I actually posted this in April of last year (and commented then that, although it really only constituted penetration testing - not "knock-down" or "stopping" power, I nevertheless found it most interesting!
Grant Rombough, Medicine Hat, Alberta

Here's the entire previous post:
I just HAD to respond to this thread by quoting a 1948 Springfield Armory report on some pentration tests they conducted using an Inglis HP, with a Colt .45 1911A1 as a sort of "control" pistol. The report is quoted below (verbatim) from pp. 178-9 of Clive Law's new book, "INGLIS DIAMOND: The Canadian High Power Pistol". Sorry about the resulting length of this post, but I trust many of you will find it absolutely fascinating. (Now I know that "penetration" does not equate with "stopping power", but I certainly found the comparative performance of the military .45 Ball ammo surprising!)
Here goes:

SPRINGFIELD ARMORY
RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT DIVISION
MEMORANDUM REPORT SA-MR 20-2100

L O Spaulding/lv

24 August 1948

SUBJECT:
Effective Penetration Range of 9mm Parabellum Ammunition.

OBJECT:
To determine the greatest range at which the subject ammunition will penetrate the M1 helmet.

SUMMARY:
M1 helmets were fired at using different 9mm ammunition to determine the greatest penetration range. A Canadian 9mm Parabellum ammunition having a velocity of 1250 f/s penetrated the M1 helmet at 130 yards, which was further than any of the other ammunition tested.

REFERENCE:
Project TS2-7875-2024 J O 7875-6160

MATERIAL:

1. Weapons
a. Browning FN 9mm Pistol, HP Inglis-Canada, Serial Number 8T2367
b. Colt Automatic Pistol, Cal .45, 1911A1, Serial Number 1651407

2. Ammunition
a. Special 9mm Parabellum cases and Cal .38 S&W Special Bullets (Metal clad, 158 grains) and loaded to a velocity of 850 f/s.
b. Winchester 9mm Parabellum, 116 grain bullet, Lot WRA22026, 1,150 f/s instrumental velocity at 53 feet.
c. Cartridges, Ball, 9mm M1, 116 grain bullet (Parabellum) (Code T2CAB) Lot DIL- 617 (Canadian) 1,250 f/s instrumental velocity at 53 feet.
d. Pistol Ball Cal .45 M1911, Lot E C S25250.

3. M1 Helmets

4. Outdoor range facilities

PROCEDURE:
An M1 helmet was placed on top of a stake, back of which a target was set up to facilitate aiming and to lend support to the helmet. The 9mm Canadian pistol was then fired from a muzzle and elbow rest at the helmet. In the event the helmet was pierced, it was moved away from the shooter 10 yards and the procedure repeated until failure to pierce the helmet resulted. This procedure was followed with the special 9mm ammunition and with the high and low velocity 9mm ammunition. A similar test was run using a Colt Cal .45.

RESULTS:
1. The special 9mm Parabellum case with a Cal 38 S&W bullet penetrated the M1 helmet at 50 yards, but not 60 yards.
2. The Winchester 9mm Parabellum (1,150 f/s velocity) penetrated the M1 helmet at 120 yards, but not at 130 yards.
3. The Canadian 9mm Parabellum (1,250 f/s velocity) penetrated the M1 helmet at 130 yards, but due to lack of longer range facilities was not fired beyond this point.
4. The Cal .45 ammunition penetrated the helmet at 30 yards, but not at 35 yards.

CONCLUSION:
It is concluded that the Canadian 9mm Parabellum ammunition with the 1250 f/s velocity, had a longer range penetration power than any of the other ammunition tested.

Prepared By: L O Spaulding, Ordnance Engineer
H F Hawthorne, Ordnance Engineer
E W Hopkins, Head Ordnance Engineer

:

[krept]

These may help explain the results... What is sectional density and why is it important? (http://www.chuckhawks.com/sd.htm)


What is the sectional density of my bullet? (http://www.realguns.com/calc/sectionaldensity)

Don't forget... diameter is one dimension. When we look at the area of a .45" circle vs. a .355" circle(area = pi x radius x radius)...

my math comes out to... the area of a circle with .45" = .159 sq. in and .355" circle = .099 sq. in.

Thus, a circle with a diameter of .45" will have a 60% greater surface area than a circle w/ dia of .355" (if my math is correct ;). Now even then, this is two dimensional and I guess you would have to bust out the calculus to compensate for the... er... ogive? to determine the true surface area. But my point is that you aren't just getting hit by the diameter but moreso the surface area of the bullet.

If your foot was 60% bigger, it would be significant. But these are bullets and they are handgun bullets at that. So the difference isn't really that significant in the relative magnitude of things.

Is 9mm good enough? Is .45 good enough? How about the new 5.7mm bullets? What if they penetrate more? I think the key here is to pick who you really feel has the credentials to be an "expert" and go with what they choose. Either that, or just get good with what ya got.

[krept]

BTW...

http://www.ramo.com/weapons/ammo.shtml

Weighing only half as much as a 9mm round and with 30% less recoil, the 5.7 x 28 mm enhances accuracy in both rapid aimed shots and full automatic fire. The projectile transfers nearly all of its energy to the target on impact, thus minimizing over-penetration and greatly reducing collateral risks. In contrast, a 9mm round loses only 30% of its energy on the primary target and often causes unintended damage. This round will penetrate modern fragmentation vests and helmets at ranges up to 200 meters.

Is this "better?"

[Sven]

My high school friend is a SEAL Instructor. Asked him what I should get for a handgun... he told me to get an H&K .45.

[NIB]

:scrutiny:

Why is it that it's always the ones who haven't been there, done that who always want to question or critique the policys and descisions of our Spec Ops personel.

:neener:

[Harold Mayo]

Why is it that it's always the ones who haven't been there, done that who always want to question or critique the policys and descisions of our Spec Ops personel.


'Cause it's a forum where people speak their minds? :D

Besides...the actual specials operations personnel don't have the final say in the weapons they carry. Although many people like to comment that "SEALs carry whatever they want", that just isn't the case. Like any governmentally-funded entity of any sort, it is normally people who ARE NOT on the front lines who make such decisions and the operators make due. Special operations personnel have more leeway than, say, a regular infantry grunt, but, in the end, if they are told to carry weapon x instead of weapon y, they will be carrying weapon x. Orders is orders...

An interesting side note that I didn't realize until I was talking to an active-duty SEAL a couple of years ago...not all SEALs keep in training for combatative stuff. I didn't realize that. He said that he had barely touched a weapon in nearly a year. His platoon had been doing some deep diving and underwater demolitions for most of the past year and he hadn't done anything but shoot some qualifications with an MP5.

[Onslaught]

I too have seen this special on TLC. The younger of the two SEALs who was interviewed was the kind of guy that the SEALs make fun of. He was "that guy". I guess he was a SEAL, but I'd be willing to bet he was a firearms instructor, or armourer, or some other administrative member of "the Teams".

I have met a couple of guys that said they were Navy SEALs. They told me all about it, and that's pretty much all they talked about. I do not know if I have ever met a Navy SEAL.

I have known several guys who said they were Rangers and one that was ex-Delta Force... I believe every one of them.

One thing that they all had in common... They didn't talk much, and when they did, they didn't talk about SOPMOD's and SOCOM's and "Mozambiques" (2 to the body, 1 to the head)... They talked about beer, girls, night clubs, music, and football. If you ask them enough questions, they may share a story, but it's not going to sound exciting and gung-ho... They were just matter-of-fact, almost boring stories... "they woke us up, we got on the plane, we didn't know if it was training or not, we flew for a really long time, we all decided this must be for real, then they told us, then we jumped, we landed, we surrounded Noriega's compound, then we came home."

:neener:

[ACP]

I'd have to agree with Krept and Steve, in as much as what SEALS do and what the average CCW holder experience are worlds apart. 9mm has its place, of course -- commonality with subgun, worldwide availability, high capacity magazines, etc. That's different than a mugger with a box cutter at three feet in an ATM vestibule. I'll stick with my .45 ACP and .357 Magnum. But if I was on a team with supressed weapons 500 miles from the border or pickup spot I wouldn't shun 9mm -- I'd give every round a big, fat kiss.

[Gordy Wesen]

I'd like the 9mm too if I could shoot sub-gun ammo through it.

[chevrofreak]

I'd like the 9mm too if I could shoot sub-gun ammo through it.

Glock 9mm's love sub-gun ammo.

[thaddeus]

The SEALs I have known were not cocky at all but very humble clean-cut guys with a hardcore training mentality, completely the opposite of their hollywood personnae. And that guy on that show did not act like the operators I have known, but more like a gun shop commando mouting off.

But never the less, I agree with him that the 9mm is very effective, and many of these guys probably like the capacity. Considering that guys that really walk the walk carry them, they must work. Who is more qualified to say than the Israelis that enter buses and planes to stop hell-bent terrorists wielding bombs and AK's, and they trust their lives and others' lives to the 9mm. Many of these guys enter with nothing more than a pistol. When do you need more stopping power than when you are facing a suicidal terrorist? You have to stop him NOW or everyone dies. If the 9mm did not work, they would pick something else.


That said, if I could find a 9mm platform I liked to carry, I would carry one, but I like the 1911 platform and the .45 fits it best.

[Gordy Wesen]

Thad, you hould check out Dawson Precision:
http://www3.mailordercentral.com/shootingstore/prodinfo.asp?number=STI80309
And I hear good things about Springfields Sub Compact XD.

[Double Naught Spy]

Trapshooter, you are right, I think. And for you others, of course the 9 mm has a definite purpose. I have no doubt about that and I have no doubt that it can be very effectively used.

The Seal in question could have bypassed all this cockiness crap and simply noted that while many folks have suggested the 9 mm to be a dinky round, it has proven to be very effective in CQB confrontations especially when used with with a shot set, such as placing two shots to the heart and one into the the head. With such an explanation, the guy would come off sounding learned, provided a good explanation, and no threat be made to the viewer. Instead, the guy never does a very good job of explaining why it is that the 9 mm is so useful to them.

The guy is supposedly on my side and so I don't much appreciate the threats because I might belittle this particular choice of caliber.

[thaddeus]

Gordy, wow, thanks for showing me that gun. I like it a lot. Do you know if they make the same slim gun but a little longer in muzzle and handle? I would liketo see one that has a 4 inch barrel and holds 8 rounds of 9mm.

[Serpico]

I held the elevator door for a SEAL back in 86 and he didn't even say "thank you"...I then asked him what floor and he told me to mind my own business, and that his floor was classified....he then knocked me out so I would not see where he got off...hit my twice in the chest and twice on the head....once on the chest would have sufficed....and I don't know what floor in the mall could have been classified...

[Beorn]

My father was a SEAL in Viet Nam. A Medic to be precise. He carried either a grease gun and a .45 or a m37 shotgun and a .45. But then again, this was the late 60s early 70s.

And my father,who has been for decades now a Presbyterian Minister, can pray for your body and soul, heal your body and soul, or send your body and soul to their next repast.

And THAT folks, is why I was a well behaved child...

[Minute_Of_Torso]

I was in the Navy but about as far away from being a SEAL as you could get . . . fat, lazy, nuclear engineer. I've only known one SEAL in my entire life and he retired long before I was in high school (one of the UDT's that got trained/transferred to SEAL). Anyway, he's as humble, gentle, and quiet as any man I've ever met. An ordained minister who makes SEAL duty (in some VERY HOT areas) sound like it was shore duty in Pearl Harbor . . . ho hum.

Anyway, I really don't think the issue with these hardcore guys is so much caliber. .45 v. 9mm - I'm sure each man has his own personal preference but I'm pretty sure that you could give a SEAL a sharp, pointy stick and he could kill me six times before I hit the ground (probably even do it without the stick), but I'm certainly not the standard training model of the bad guy.

Never been there, never done that but if they like 9mm (or not) I'm not going to argue with them. It's good enough for me and my family of three but that's a long way from HALO jumps and foreign shores.

[Drjones]

I got about halfway down the thread, and stopped in dismay that these points haven't been brought up:

1) Two shots in the head, and two in the heart will stop pretty much ANYONE no matter the caliber of your gun. The fact that the SEALs drop someone with up to four shots (or so this guy says) is NOT a selling point of the 9mm to me.

We all know it would only take one .45 to do someone in properly! :neener:

Seriously though, a .45 to the noggin'll do anyone in good.

2) Re: the officer who shot someone in the stomach, that seems to me to be VERY poor training for several reasons:

a) Stomach wounds take a LONG time to kill someone. They are excruciatingly painful, and a lot of blood loss is what causes the death, not sudden trauma like a head/heart shot. Was this guy absent during COM training?

b) He only shot him once. :banghead:

Of course I may be wrong....

[Triad]

Drjones, I've seen that video and I'd have to say he wasn't poorly trained. He did VERY WELL considering the situation.

[Justin]

Seriously though, a .45 to the noggin'll do anyone in good. Um, so will a 9. I don't think you get extra points for making them extra dead.;)


Honestly, if the 9mm were so ineffective I think it would have gone the way of the Dodo long ago...or been relegated to being a curio round. But that's just my opinion.

[twoblink]

As they say in the real estate business; the most important thing is: "Location Location Location!" I mean shot location :D

Whatever you are good with, is an effective tool. I personally hate the 9mm, but if the right hands (which means not mine) it's effective.

[chevrofreak]

Drjones, I've seen that video and I'd have to say he wasn't poorly trained. He did VERY WELL considering the situation.


i would have to agree. he was stuck between a car and the guard rail, with about 2 feet to maneuver, plus he was only using one hand IIRC

what amazed me is that the man who was shot didnt even bleed from the bullet hole.

[rebbryan]

"a) Stomach wounds take a LONG time to kill someone. They are excruciatingly painful, and a lot of blood loss is what causes the death, not sudden trauma like a head/heart shot. Was this guy absent during COM training? "

believe it or not the cops aren't trying to kill everyone
:what:

[Bainx]

Of course they do, they have no choice as individuals. The powers that be at the top choose what weapons are issued to their outfit.

Heck, if they were issued .22s, I suppose they would condone them also!

[Destructo6]

i would have to agree. he was stuck between a car and the guard rail, with about 2 feet to maneuver, plus he was only using one hand IIRC

what amazed me is that the man who was shot didnt even bleed from the bullet hole.
He got himself between the guard rail and car; it was a poor decision. You could hear the cop closest to the camera saying, "stop, hey, don't do that..." I can't fault him for popping the guy once he took a swipe at him with the knife.

The lack of blood amazed me, too. Not only was he not bleeding, but he didn't seem to be in a ton of pain. The cop was pretty sure he'd missed.

Saw another one over the weekend that was a liquor store shootout. One of the badguys was shot in the chest/ab at close range while his buddy shot the clerk. The BG with the gunshot wound leapt back over the counter, pulled up his shirt and had to look before exclaiming that he thought he was shot. Both BGs ran out the door and drove away. Shot BG died not long after. Liquor store clerk paralyzed.

[JShirley]

Honestly, if the 9mm were so ineffective I think it would have gone the way of the Dodo long ago...or been relegated to being a curio round.

Interesting to remember that many European police agencies thought .32 ACP was sufficient for years...and, heck- James Bond used one! We've all been chasing the wrong calibers! :scrutiny:

[jon1481]

wow