No guns in hospitals.


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kngflp
October 28, 2004, 11:25 PM
I took my grandmother to get a flu shot the other day and on the doors to the Dr.'s office, which is on hospital property, I noticed a large no guns sign. I remember carrying in a different hospital, Its possible I missed the sign though. What are hospitals so worried about?

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Dbl0Kevin
October 28, 2004, 11:31 PM
A good number of doctors seem to be liberal......you know liberals and guns. :barf:

Standing Wolf
October 28, 2004, 11:45 PM
What are hospitals so worried about?

Losing the illusion of control. I'm sure it's never occurred to most hospital administrators criminals merely ignore their signs.

tc300mag1
October 28, 2004, 11:46 PM
Cant say what there worried about but on back of my CCW it say no carry in hospitals along with other places i cant carry thought it was odd myself .. course doesnt say dr office

DigMe
October 28, 2004, 11:50 PM
I think it used to be illegal in Texas for some reason but now they have to post 30.06 signs just like everyone else if they want to legally keep guns out. The hospital that my wife often works at has some no guns sign out front but references some law that I'm sure is outdated...perhaps the one that used to keep out CHL guns. I ignore it.

brad cook

Chupacabra
October 29, 2004, 12:10 AM
Concealed is concealed.

:evil:

JL2152
October 29, 2004, 12:16 AM
Hospitals are one of those magic safe zones where no one ever commits a crime. Its a hospital after all criminals would thing twice wouldn't they?

NukemJim
October 29, 2004, 09:55 AM
Concealed is concealed.

Sorta-kinda hard to hide a gun when you are being Xrayed, Cat scanned, Nuclear Med imaged ( My personal favorite :) ) or what not.

NukemJim

SapperLeader
October 29, 2004, 10:29 AM
Last January my grandfather had a leg amputated due to diabetes and was hospitalized through the begining of March. Virginia doesnt forbid carry in hospitals, so there is no law against it. The hospital does have a very nice picture of a firearm with a line through it. I was escorting my 71 year old grandmother to visit her husband several times a week. She shuffles everywhere, and wears a obscene amount of expensive accessories, and carries cash. She screams out "
im defensless and a victim". Now, I like to look after my family, so do you think I followed Virginia Law, or the hospitals nice pictorial advice in regards to my carrying habits :). If its not illegal, concealed means concealed.

Hkmp5sd
October 29, 2004, 10:46 AM
It is not prohibited to carry a firearm in a hospital and the "no guns" signs don't mean anything.

tcsd1236
October 29, 2004, 10:47 AM
What are hospitals so worried about?
They wont even let me leave old gun magazines in the racks around the hospital here. Lasst time I did it, they detailed a woman to go around after me and scoop out the magzines. I ran into her as I was coming down from the top floor and she was emptying the rack by the elevator. Guess they want us to all be comatose reading year old copies of the Rotarian, which seems to be the only approved magazine based on whats in the racks.

Zrex
October 29, 2004, 11:07 AM
Digme -

The only places around Waco that I have seen the 30.06 signs are at the Scott & White clinic on Fish Pond and at National Bank in Hewitt. Have you seen any others?

Pilgrim
October 29, 2004, 11:57 AM
Hospitals are one of those magic safe zones where no one ever commits a crime. Its a hospital after all criminals would thin(k) twice wouldn't they?

Seeing that gang drive by shootings are such an inefficient way of eliminating competition, gang shooters have been known to go to the hospital to finish off the wounded. A "No Guns" sign is the hospital's way of protecting the wounded gang member.

Pilgrim

Lone_Gunman
October 29, 2004, 12:02 PM
A good number of doctors seem to be liberal......you know liberals and guns.

Doctors don't make the administrative rules of the hospital.

I doubt any doctor was asked about the policy before it was created.

Chut1st
October 29, 2004, 12:22 PM
Had a very interesting conversation with the security dept. of a local hospital a couple of weeks ago.

Took my wife there for 3 days of tests and did not see the requisite signs to ban firearms. TN law requires a sign at any entrance used by the general public. I decided as a courtesy to check with security to make sure I hadn't missed something. After all, every other hospital in this part of the state has the signs conspicuously posted. (Attn: BGs, most West TN hospitals are free-fire zones for you.)

Security told me that management doesn't want to give the impression that they are in a bad area and that the hospital's lawyer opined that if they make an announcement over the PA system periodically that guns are prohibited, that would meet the requirements. We both had a good laugh over that. Worse yet, the security people are not allowed to carry either as a function of their jobs or their own personal CCWs. If a situation arises necessitating the use of a firearm, they are instructed to call the local police.

Bottom line: ok to carry there, don't alarm the sheeple, and if anyone questions me, tell them that ____ said it was ok and check with them (protecting my source). Turns out as well that the security person and I are both big 10mm auto fans and will be getting together to shoot.

BTW, regarding liberal doctors, one of my best friends is a neurosurgeon, very conservative, loves guns and shooting and a real hot-shot rock and roll guitar player. So much for stereotypes.

Vermont Guy
October 29, 2004, 12:35 PM
"Any hospital accessible by the public" is a prohibited place in Missouri.

R.H. Lee
October 29, 2004, 12:38 PM
Losing the illusion of control. I'm sure it's never occurred to most hospital administrators criminals merely ignore their signs. Ain't that the truth. Most of them view themselves as monarchs of some 'magic kingdom', IMO.

sendec
October 29, 2004, 12:46 PM
I dont know where all these liberal doctors are, but not in the hospitals I've been to/in. Sometimes I think that there is an automatic assumption that advanced degree = liberal, and that hasnt been my experience.

Let me preface further by stating that I worked my way thru school in the security unit of a major metropolitan hospital and was assigned the night shift on weekends in the ED. I got into far more confrontations per hour worked there than I ever did later as a cop.

One issue with guns in hospitals is their security. There are just too many thefts of personal property that if a patient were to come in with a gun they would not be able to keep it secured, unless it was surrendered and put in a safe for safekeeping. We used to do this as a courtesy for cops who came in injured on duty. If they had to go to xray or the like we would either have one of their supervisors take the gun or secure it for them at security. Some hospitals have lockers just for this in the ED

Secondly, there are plenty of weapons and conflicts in hospitals as it is. People tend to be emotionally charged up. By banning weapons it gives the administration a tool for managing crisis. An agitated person with a gun who declines to settle can be asked to leave, or if it comes to it arrested for trespassing.

I dont agree with it but I understand why many hospitals are this way.

I am also a little leery of this cavalier "concealed is concealed" attitude. It is probably illegal and indicative of a lack of respect for A) the law and B) the rights of the grantor of a privilege. Most hospitals are private - you have no intrinsic "right" to be there. Purposefully ignoring a request of the host is elitist and just plain rude. If you dont like their rules, dont go. But then I dont pee in people's swimming pools either - the principle is the same.

Atticus
October 29, 2004, 02:02 PM
WARNING: tongue - in- cheek comment.

Have you had many interactions with the medical community lately? I have. I'm not sure I even trust myself with a gun around those folks.
If Osama had blown up an HMO or insurance comapny...he'd probably be ahead in the presidential polls about now.

S Roper
October 29, 2004, 02:04 PM
"Sorta-kinda hard to hide a gun when you are being Xrayed, Cat scanned, Nuclear Med imaged ( My personal favorite ) or what not."

Plus it could be rather dangerous in an MRI...

R.H. Lee
October 29, 2004, 02:07 PM
Have you had many interactions with the medical community lately? Why yes, I have, as I work for a hospital system. Never have I been involved with an industry as bollixed.

DigMe
October 29, 2004, 02:55 PM
Digme -

The only places around Waco that I have seen the 30.06 signs are at the Scott & White clinic on Fish Pond and at National Bank in Hewitt. Have you seen any others?




No, I haven't seen any 30.06 postings that I can recall around Waco. Hillcrest is definitely not posted 30.06 at the main entrance although as I mentioned they do have some outdated posting. I haven't used any other entrances there. I'll try to remember to let you know if I come across any others. Do the same for me.

Too bad Fish Pond clinic is posted...that's my clinic...although I haven't been there yet. I think S&W posts almost all of their buildings unfortunately. :rolleyes:

brad cook

Mrs. Armoredman
October 29, 2004, 04:24 PM
They have signs in the hospital I worked at. When I had to go and spend the night in the hospital in June of 2000 My hubby had a 32 cal in the small of his back and he slept on the father cot all night long. He said he back felt pretty good the next morning. It was nice to see him smile.

Just thought I would share.

Andrew Rothman
October 29, 2004, 07:07 PM
I am also a little leery of this cavalier "concealed is concealed" attitude. It is probably illegal
Yawn.

1. Illegal is one thing. Ignoring a stupid and ill-conceived policy is quite another. In most states, I think, it's just policy.

and indicative of a lack of respect for A) the law

See #1, above.

and B) the rights of the grantor of a privilege.

2. Self defense is a human right. Are you new here? :neener:

Most hospitals are private - you have no intrinsic "right" to be there.

3. Yeah, and with most of our health insurance (for those of us lucky enough to have it), we don't have any stinkin' choice which hospital we visit.
Purposefully ignoring a request of the host is elitist

4. Huh?

and just plain rude.

5. Nope. "Little white lies" are very valid means of smoothing social situations. Keeping your concealed weapon concealed in no way shows rudeness to your "host."

If you dont like their rules, dont go.

See #3, above.

But then I dont pee in people's swimming pools either - the principle is the same.

6. The principle is completely different. Peeing in a swimming pool actually has a detrimental effect on swimmers. Carrying concealed has no negative impact on your "host" -- and could have a very positive effect.

commygun
October 29, 2004, 07:25 PM
I think alot of it has to do with the risk management/CYA culture imposed
on hospitals by government regulatiions and accrediting agencies and
insurers. Hospitals spend a huge amount of time and money and generate
a ton of paperwork that has little or nothing to do with actual healthcare.
All bases must appear to be covered whether they actually are or not.

ssr
October 30, 2004, 12:55 AM
Most of those rules are made by administrators with little or no doctor input. Many hospitals and health care sites put actually zero thought into it, it's just a knee-jerk reaction that they think they have to do. As a doctor, my concern would be for some crazed patient looking to attack or kill me or just any doctor. As stated above, concealed means concealed. And that means very concealed.

roburado
October 30, 2004, 01:37 AM
Unfortunately, my situation in Michigan is that carrying a pistol in a hospital is illegal. Working in a hospital where people have been shot in the parking lots, it makes me a bit annoyed that I can't carry in the hospital. I may carry a gun to the parking lot and leave it in the car, but I can't bring the pistol inside the physical structure of the hospital. I imagine that you all can imagine that a criminal would probably not give me the time to go get my pistol out of the gun vault in my trunk before he shoots at me. I find it unfortunate that I can't have a pistol on me going to and from my vehicle. In the past year, there have been two shootings AFAIK. :cuss:

c_yeager
October 30, 2004, 05:13 AM
Most hospitals post just to cover their butts. They are (obviously) particularly large targets for lawsuits. So they post the sign so that they can say "hey look, we TRIED to keep you from getting shot" without really having to do anything. In most states (CHECK YOUR LAWS FOR YOUR LOCATION!!!!!) the signs are not legally binding in any way.

The worry of a hospital is that they will get an armed patient, load them up with a cocktail of mindbending medication, and having them go ape**** in the lobby. The patient could likely skate on the charge due to the afore mentioned drugs, and there is nothing that lawyers hate more than not having someone to blame, and hospitals do generally have pretty deep pockets. In that case the hospital would have a certain amount of culpability and the sign (in theory) helps to alleviate that.

kngflp
October 30, 2004, 01:16 PM
I live in memphis and hospitals are not one of the prohibited places, so in this instance if by some chance someone determined I was carrying all they could legally do would be to ask me to leave, right? It would just be tresspassing, right?

c_yeager
October 31, 2004, 03:19 AM
I live in memphis and hospitals are not one of the prohibited places, so in this instance if by some chance someone determined I was carrying all they could legally do would be to ask me to leave, right? It would just be tresspassing, right?

IF (and thats a big fat if) the laws are similar to Washington then yes that is the case. But, really do NOT relly on answers to legal questions obtained on the internet, you should call someone in your state (police chief, lawyer) who knows the actuall law just to be safe.

Mark in California
October 31, 2004, 05:20 AM
When I was in the hospital a few years ago they were not amused about the book I was reading on snipers.

I run a security firm and work in and around hospitals. They do not like anyone carrying guns. Were called out by the police and told to carry guns and take custody of a person who had attacked another with a axe. ER was bad enough, but after they figured out we were armed they were not going to allow us upstairs to the rooms. It was Police ordered, but I go us down graded to un-armed. THEN THEY HAD TO PUT OUR WEAPONS IN A LOCKED BOX. NURSES WERE HANDLING LOADED BECAUSE WE COULD NOT GO INTO THE MED ROOM. THE WEIRDEST FEELING IN THE WORLD IS HANDING OFF OR RECEIVING YOUR LOADED WEAPON FROM SOME STRANGER.

From my point of view, if CCW, don't ask don't say.

El Rojo
October 31, 2004, 08:38 PM
I am also a little leery of this cavalier "concealed is concealed" attitude. It is probably illegal and indicative of a lack of respect for A) the law and B) the rights of the grantor of a privilege. Most hospitals are private - you have no intrinsic "right" to be there. Purposefully ignoring a request of the host is elitist and just plain rude. If you dont like their rules, dont go. But then I dont pee in people's swimming pools either - the principle is the same.I disagree Sendec. Self defense should not be a "privilege" that anyone private or public should be able to regulate. Sure we have laws and many people feel comfortable relying on others to provide their personal security.

Some of us don't. My rule is if there is a metal detector, I won't carry. If there isn't a metal detector, then I carry. I really don't care what other people think about my carrying a gun, I don't carry a gun as a social status or for their approval. I do it for my personal safety. And concealed does means concealed. Think of how many sheeple in the PRK have absolutely no clue that this young, red-bearded man has a legally concealed Glock in his wasteband. Think about how many of them would have convulsions if they found out I was carrying. The only way they will ever find out is if I tell them or if we are about to die. So concealed does mean concealed. What they don't know will not hurt them, but it could save their lives.

XLMiguel
October 31, 2004, 10:43 PM
Fairfax Hospital has a "No Guns" sign, Arlington Hospital doesn't. I'm of the 'concealed means concealed school myself . . . .

Fairfax has [unarmed] security behind a glass divider in the ER, it serves 'the public', is a trauma center, etc. I've been there for the 'dinner show' on a Friday night, and I sorta understand why they don't want armed people in he waiting area. It can be kind of a zoo, and the 'customers' don't necessarily agree with the staffs' priorities, know'whuddamean? When I was in for a ruptured quadreflex, based on the service I received, both in the ER, and later as a surgical patient, I was quite ready to shoot somebody [several somebodies], so I guess I understand where they're coming from. Never again.

Arlington also has an ER, but doesn't have half the traffic as Fairfax nor as much 'lowest common denominator' clientele. Different county, YMMV.

Vermont Guy
October 31, 2004, 10:54 PM
A lesson for the medical profession is the story of Ignaz Semmeiweis.

http://www.np.edu.sg/~dept-bio/ssm/news/apr_jun99/ignaz.htm

Ryan in the House
November 1, 2004, 03:09 AM
Last January my grandfather had a leg amputated due to diabetes and was hospitalized through the begining of March. Virginia doesnt forbid carry in hospitals, so there is no law against it. The hospital does have a very nice picture of a firearm with a line through it. I was escorting my 71 year old grandmother to visit her husband several times a week. She shuffles everywhere, and wears a obscene amount of expensive accessories, and carries cash. She screams out "
im defensless and a victim". Now, I like to look after my family, so do you think I followed Virginia Law, or the hospitals nice pictorial advice in regards to my carrying habits . If its not illegal, concealed means concealed.

I recently moved from Virginia to Maryland. Quite a difference. I am sure there are harsher gun restrictions here in MD. I think the handgun purchase age in VA is 18, where as it's 21 here in Maryland.

http://www.nraila.org/images/rtcmaplg.jpg

MD is one of the "Right Restricted" states. DAMN!

I really miss Virginia...

XLMiguel
November 1, 2004, 10:12 AM
Ryan -
Handgun purchsers must be 21 in VA. I believe that's the law nation-wide. MD's gun laws suck, regardless.

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