[Mastrogiacomo]

My father just bought his first rifle today, a Remington 700 ADL .223. I'd love one myself and I'd install a scope on it. Trouble is both he and I know nothing about the calibers. I know the .223 is a cheap load which is why I suggested it to him to save money on ammo. What are the other inexpensive ammo rounds -- that won't rip your arm off at the range?

[Cortland]

If you're new to firearms and want a rifle that's inexpensive to shoot, you can't do any better than a .22 Long Rifle rimfire. In fact, I'd venture to say there's no greater confluence of value and fun in a rifle than a Ruger 10/22.

As far as centerfire rifle goes, you won't get any cheaper than .223 unless you go to 7.62x39 (not exactly common in bolt action rifles) or a pistol caliber.

[Mastrogiacomo]

I'm planning on getting the Marlin 39A at some point but my father thinks the .22 is a waste. I'd try get a .223 too but maybe another caliber in addition to this -- a .308 -- I don't know.

[Cortland]

Why is the .22 a waste? A lot of new shooters develop a caliber-related machismo that really has no justification in the context of target shooting and marksmanship.

.308 is certainly an option. Have you taken a look at calibers for which there's a surplus market? Maybe 7.62x54R and a milsurp Mosin Nagant?

[Mastrogiacomo]

I don't feel the .22 is a waste which is why I'm planning on getting the 39A golden. I think he feels it is because it's a caliber with no punch. He wants "a real gun."

[redneck]

What kind of shooting do you want to do with it? If your just punching paper, you should get the .22 rimfire before anything else. It can be amazingly accurate out to 50 yards, and with the right gun and ammo even out to 100 yards. Develop the basics with it and if you get bored on the bench at 50 yards, try shooting offhand.
A .223 is great but if your just hitting targets there's no need for that "punch" unless your getting out past 100 yards. And if your completely new to rifles, you will probably be quite happy shooting a rimfire in close and being able to shoot 100 rounds for less than a dollar :D

[Vern Humphrey]

I've got about 33 guns -- and of these, nearly a third are .22s. I have .22 target rifles, .22 hunting rifles, .22 "youth model" rifles to teach kids, .22 pistols, .22 revolvers, and on and on.

A .22 is a gun to learn marksmanship on. A .22 is a great hunting gun -- you'll kill a lot more squirrels than deer and elk. A .22 is a fine target rifle or pistol for formal target competition. And a .22 is both cheap and fun to shoot.

[ojibweindian]

As far as a cheap centerfire that won't "rip your arm off", the .223 is the best thing going. Other "cheap" centerfire rifle cartridges, like the 8mm mauser and the 7.62x54 will have significantly more recoil.

You could go for .308 in a heavy barrel target rifle. Lots of surplus .308 out there and the weight of the rifle will reduce the level of felt recoil.

[mustanger98]

Here's my thoughts.

What are the other inexpensive ammo rounds -- that won't rip your arm off at the range?

CZ makes a 7.62x39mm-chambered bolt action rifle. IIRC, it has a set trigger- push the trigger forward and it sets the sear, then just lightly squeeze to touch it off.:) You can get all kind of surplus 7.62x39 ammo real cheap. Wolf's cheap too. Especially if you buy 1Krd cases.

...but my father thinks the .22 is a waste.

Well, I shoot .22 as much as anything and sometimes more. I've never thought it was a waste. And Bart Skelton recently wrote in his monthly collumn (in Guns&Ammo) that "real men shoot .22s." He based that on it being good practice- makes you better with your high-powered stuff.

I know you said Marlin 39A Golden. I was just thinking of Marlin's and Savage's bolt action .22s too- I've been kinda plotting my sillouette rifle around one of those.

I'd try get a .223 too but maybe another caliber in addition to this -- a .308 -- I don't know.

.223 is a decent caliber if you're punching paper. USMC goes to 500m with the M16 last I knew. A .308 isn't a bad choice either- you can get surplus 7.62x51mm (aka 7.62NATO) cheap and I've heard Aussie's good as is Port and Hirt.

For a .223 or .308, I'm leaning in the direction of Savage's M11GL. It has sights on the barrel, and I'm thinking of mounting an aperture rear sight.

I don't feel the .22 is a waste which is why I'm planning on getting the 39A golden. I think he feels it is because it's a caliber with no punch. He wants "a real gun."

I don't know that it has "no punch". Nobody in their right mind wants to get hit with one. The way I grew up, if it fires a bullet, it must be a "real gun". Oh, and I read about a club out in California where they shoot their .22s in matches where the course of fire extends out to 400yds and suprises most folks.

And you don't have to have an expensive rifle and fancy ammo to be accurate to 100yds. I learned on a wore out JC Higgins single shot. I learned stretching it out to 100yds. At my club range here, some of the guys (and gals) shoot sillouette with .22s too 100yds. I shot that course of fire with a stock 10/22 with 4x scope (fixed power) once and they said I turned in a score that was, for a beginner, "good anywhere".

Other "cheap" centerfire rifle cartridges, like the 8mm mauser and the 7.62x54 will have significantly more recoil.

I also shoot 8mm Mauser and I'll vouch for that increase in recoil. Maybe five clips and I'm done. My M1 Garand (.30-06), I can probably shoot it all day.

You could go for .308 in a heavy barrel target rifle. Lots of surplus .308 out there and the weight of the rifle will reduce the level of felt recoil.

You could also find a .308 Mauser (kinda iffy anymore, seems like, but they're out there). The Israelis fielded K98k's rebarreled to .308/7.62.

[tex_n_cal]

hmmm...you have many, many choices available to you...

The advice on .22 LR's is sound, as far as practice. If you get one, the Ruger 10/22 is very, very popular, and is easy to customize. Unload ten .22's into a bad guy, he will cease all hostile behavior.

Ruger also makes 10/22's in the .22 Magnum rimfire, which drives bullets a good deal faster than the .22 LR. These are viable small game hunting and self defense weapons. They can also be readily converted to the .17 Hornady Magnum Rimfire, which is a neat, and popular cartridge.

The .22 Magnum and .17 HMR I already mentioned are readily available in a variety of rifle styles, bolt, lever, and autoloading.

The old .22 Hornet Cartridge is still pretty cool, and available in many different rifles. It has more power than either of the above two, though less than a .223.

I assume you can't get AR-15's in MA. Too bad, as they are pretty fun to shoot, and very effective for defense. Can you get a Ruger Mini-14? They are fun to shoot, alegedly not as accurate as an AR, but popular and reliable. They can be bought in both .223, and 7.62x39 caliber.

The .22-250 catridge has been around a long time, and has a good deal more power than a .223. Recoil is still modest. It is found in many bolt action and single shot rifles.

Going above the .22-250, starting at the .243, you get into true big game cartridges, that are suitible for deer or similar game. They are devastating in a self defense situation, if used for that purpose. The .243 is very popular among smaller shooters, and has reasonable recoil.

I suspect a .308 is more rifle than you want to shoot, at least until you gain more experience. Recoil is not bad at all, but maybe a bit much for a new shooter. In a self defense situation, they tend to shoot through bad guys, walls, houses, and generally are not advised in an urban setting.

Lots of folks like the SKS - it is a good, cheap choice if legal in your state. As mustanger pointed out, you can also get the 7.62x39 cartridge in CZ bolt rifles, and I think Ruger made some as well.

Switching gears a little, you can get lever action rifles in a variety of calibers - for example in .38 spl/.357, .44 mag, or .45 Colt. A .30-30 Winchester 94 is fun to shoot, reasonable in recoil, and has taken a lot of deer (and bad guys) in its history. You can find ammo for them at any Wal-Mart.

I'm skipping over about a hundred books' worth of calibers and guns, but hopefully I've given you some ideas.:)

[Mastrogiacomo]

Thanks for all the suggestions folks. I had no idea so many here had as many .22 long guns but I guess they're just as fun as the handguns are. This will probably be my first choice and then step up to the .223 -- unless I'm so taken by my Dad's gun that I buy that caliber first....:)

[Art Eatman]

Mas, to become truly proficient with a rifle, ya gotta learn to coordinate the sight picture, your trigger finger--and your brain. When it all comes together properly, You're Golden.

This takes lots of practice. "Lots of practice" can get expensive. I'm talking, really, thousands of rounds. Hundreds of rounds can get you to "adequate", but that's just the beginning, IMO.

A quality .22 rimfire rifle with a really decent trigger is a training tool just as much as it is a "fun critter" for plinking tin cans or a small-game hunting rifle.

The key isn't "inexpensive rifle". The key is a lower cost of learning.

:), Art

[Bigfoot]

Plus 22s are usefull for more than practice. When a skunk or possum comes around here I dont reach for one of my high powered guns that would just startle the neighbors. I grab the 10-22 and pop em, problem solved, except for that skunk stink. And I'm building one of those tire rings (legal sound supressor) to shoot through so I can shoot all day here with the subsonic 22 without making much of a racket.

Also if your starting from scratch look into the Savage bolt guns. If you own a bench vice you can change barrels and bolts at home so you can make the gun any caliber you want. Its a 10 minute job. Check out the forum too.

http://www.savageshooters.com/Articles/BarrelSwap.html

They are accurate guns with good triggers and the extra barrels are much cheaper than buying another rifle.

[mustanger98]

I just thought of some more.

On .22 leverguns, a Winchester 9422 in .22LR or .22Magnum is a great choice. Slick action and good accuracy. Actually, between the Marlin 39A and the 9422, one is as good as they other IMO. The Winchester is a bit more streamlined though. I've looked at Henry's .22 levergun and it seems like a good deal for less money, but I've never shot one to comment about the accuracy factor.

From what I understand, .22magnum has 3.5x the power of .22LR. Overkill on squirrels, but should be good on groundhogs out to 200yds.

A 10/22 is a good choice, but for target shooting, the stock trigger is bad. I know because I deal with one. Looking into aftermarket triggers and other parts, you can quickly have more in parts than you paid for the gun. :rolleyes: :uhoh:

For any centerfire rifle or handgun cartridge, it gets pricey. I'd recommend getting into reloading. .45Colt, .357mag/.38spl, and .44spl/.44mag are all easy to reload. I've read article where the author said .22Hornet was what got them started handloading. For any rifle cartridge, handloading would make better accuracy and less recoil possible.

[Vern Humphrey]

I recommend a .22 LR before a .22 Mag. The .22 LR is a lot cheaper to shoot, and the more you shoot, the better you will be.

The .22 Mag is a 125-150 yard gun. Beyond that, the .22 Hornet and other centerfires come into their own. My .22 Mag (a Ruger 77/22) is strictly a hunting rifle -- for late season squirrels, turkey (where legal) and some varmits. Most of the time, I either reach for a .22 LR or a .22 centerfire.

I have owned both the Marlin M39A and the Winchester 9422. I recommend the latter, because of its better trigger. A good trigger makes or breaks a rifle, as far as I'm concerned.

[Mastrogiacomo]

By "latter" Vern, you're referring to the Winchester? I've looked at the page. It has a 20" barrel on one which is appealing as I'm not a very big lady, so the smaller barrel would be a better fit.

[Vern Humphrey]

Yes, I mean the Winchester. In fact, I traded a Marlin 39A for a Winchester 9422 for just that reason. The Marlin trigger was too heavy, too gritty. The Winchester trigger was like that on my Model 94 .30-30 -- smooth, light and uniform.

[Heavy Barrel]

I'm a little confused.I see by your profile that you have been a member since 2002 with over 1,600 posts.Quite a bit for someone with no guns.Where and what have you been posting on?:confused:

[Roadkill]

.22s are very handy to have around. It would not serve me well to use my FAL on that chipmunk under the deck that's trying to get under the house or my M39 on the squirrel that insists on storing acorns in the garage. Nor would my Garand be useful in killing the feral cat that my dogs chase every night or or my 98K on the posssum they treed last week. I can use mini caps that are very quiet, long rifles for squirrels, or CCI hollowpoint stingers for racoons, possums, or even dogs. I have an Anshutz bolt action with a 4x wide angle scope, it most likely has killed more small game and other critters than any other gun I have.

rk

[Vern Humphrey]

If you go by the number of animals taken, my .22s have it all over my centerfires. If you go by the ton of meat -- they still beat my centerfires. :p

[Mastrogiacomo]

Heavy,

Not sure what you mean by "no guns." I have as follows:

Beretta CX Storm
Three Beretta compacts type M
Standard 92FS
Glock 19
New Single Six Ruger
S&W 686
*Soon to acquire a Colt Detective Special.

That's "no guns?"

[Dave R]

If your criteria are:

-Cheap ammo
-Lower recoil
-Centerfire

Then I think .223 is the best choice out there. The only other options I think are 7.62 X 39 (the AK-47 round), which is available in a few bolt guns. Maybe 5.45X39 (the AK-74 round), but even fewer non-military rifles available for that one.

There are many more kinds of .223 available for target, varmit and small game hunting, than there are for other cheap, low recoil centerfire rounds. So .223 is the way to go.

[mustanger98]

For .223 ammo, CMP is listing this right now.

.223 Federal 62 GR FMJ Boattail 500 rds/CS
Shipping & handling - $10.04
Stock: 10
Price: $137.00

http://estore.odcmp.com/store/catalog/catalog.aspx?pg=product&ID=417&item=&sfv=&cat=AMC&desc=&udc=&mct=&vndr=&ba=&pmin=&pmax=&note1=&note2=&note3=&note4=&note5=&max=

Cheaperthandirt.com (which many time ain't cheaper than dirt) usually has Sellier & Bellot 55gr FMJ (M193 ball) for some like $180/1Krds, but add shipping to that...

Cabela's has a decent .223 round- it's remanufactured with GI brass and 55gr FMJ, HP, and SP; your choice in 300rd cases. Cheaper than Cheaperthandirt.com, IIRC.

I've heard the 62gr FMJ South African in the 300rd battlepacks is good stuff too. Haven't priced it in a while.

[mustanger98]

There they go singing the praises of direct gas impingement systems again...:rolleyes: :barf:

No, seriously, I'd advise towards a 9422 in .22LR or .22Mag. In fact, I'd advise to get one of each. In my opinion, they're fine rifles and will make you proud to own them. I know I like them.:D

[Vern Humphrey]

Quote:
-------------------------------
No, seriously, I'd advise towards a 9422 in .22LR or .22Mag. In fact, I'd advise to get one of each. In my opinion, they're fine rifles and will make you proud to own them. I know I like them.
---------------------------------

Other good choices would be the Ruger 10/22 or 77/22 or the CZ 452. All fine .22 or .22 Magnum rifles.

[mustanger98]

Why pay $800 and only have 2 levers?

Beautifully blued steel and checkered walnut.:D Cheap ammo.:D Good Accuracy.:D

I'm not past putting a Lyman #2 tang sight on a 9422 either as it works so well on my old '94 in .30-30, which I consider more versatile than a AR for a variety of reasons including the ability to digest LFPs and place them at POA with just a turn or two of the tang sight's adjustment from the setting for my 150gr JSP hunting loads. Besides, they just fit good. But I digress... For a .223, make mine a Ruger 77Mkll with a Simmons 3-9x40 or a Mini-14 (I've got good mags even if they ain't Ruger). :D

Other good choices would be the Ruger 10/22 or 77/22 or the CZ 452. All fine .22 or .22 Magnum rifles.

And I agree on the Rugers- 10/22 and 77/22 both. I haven't had experience beyong the gun shop with the CZ 452, but it seems okay.

[mustanger98]

So, bibedo, do you also have a favorite brand of assault wheelbarrow?:neener:

[mustanger98]

From what I've heard in M1 Garand/M14 circles, an assault wheelbarrow is a popular accessory with AR shooters.:)