A New Book Refutes John Lott - And More


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2dogs
February 26, 2003, 06:44 AM
http://www.jointogether.org/gv/news/features/reader/0,2061,561876,00.html

A New Book Refutes John Lott - And More
2/25/2003





Feature Story
by Dick Dahl

The recent revelations about apparent research fabrications and unethical self-promotion by gun-rights darling John Lott has drawn renewed attention to gun-violence research. So a new book by the Brookings Institution Press, "Evaluating Gun Policy," may be appearing at a propitious time.

Lott, a University of Chicago economist, is the author of the 1998 book, "More Guns, Less Crime," which concludes that concealed-carry laws reduce crime. The book purports to prove that criminals are deterred by the prospect of gun-carrying citizens, and has been highly influential in the rush by state legislatures-33 at last count-to pass such laws.

Lott, however, has come under intense recent criticism for his work. First, Julian Sanchez, a pro-gun, libertarian Cato Institute researcher, found evidence that Lott had created a fictitious soulmate named Mary Rosh to glowingly review his work on the Internet. Second, Northwestern University law professor James Lindgren reported that he had investigated Lott's claim of a 1997 survey which found that "98 percent of the time that people use guns defensively, they merely have to brandish a weapon to break off an attack," and found no evidence of the survey's existence.

If things weren't already bad enough for Lott and his supporters, they've just gotten worse. The new Brookings Institution Press book, a collection of new research findings on gun policy, contains an article by two law professors who have reworked the Lott data and come up with conclusions that contradict him. The article, written by professors John Donohue of Stanford Law School and Ian Ayres of Yale Law School, summarize that "if anything there is stronger evidence for the conclusion that these laws increase crime than there is for the conclusion that they decrease it."

While crime may have dropped in concealed-carry states, crime has generally dropped more in the other states during the 1990s. The result, as Donohue told Join Together Online (JTO), is that supporters of concealed-carry laws "are not enthusiastic about noting that crime fell more in the states that didn't adopt those laws. So they just look at the states that passed them and say, 'Look how crime fell.'"

The result, a half truth based on questionable research, has had enormous influence in forming recent public firearms policy. But as the new book points out, it is not the only conventional wisdom about guns that fails the test of closer scrutiny.

The book's co-editors, Philip J. Cook, a professor of public policy at Duke University, and Jens Ludwig, an associate professor of public policy at Georgetown University, describe it as a pragmatic analysis of evidence. They also contend that many of the book's findings call a variety of specific gun policies into question.

As Ludwig points out, for instance, there is no evidence to support the claim by the NRA and its supporters that Richmond, Va.'s Project Exile is the ideal model for reducing gun-related crime. Project Exile, which began in early 1997, employs a hard-nosed zero-tolerance approach to gun violence by fast tracking gun cases into the federal criminal justice system, where penalties tend to be more severe. It pays no attention to how guns flow into a community or targeting those responsible. The program has since gone statewide and is now being used by the Bush Administration as a model for its national Project Safe Neighborhoods program, the administration's answer to the problems of gun violence in America.

Gun homicides dropped by 40 percent during the first year of Project Exile's operation. One of the problems, however, as Ludwig and University of California at Berkeley economist Steven Raphael point out in their chapter about the program, is that Richmond had had an extremely high escalation of gun homicides prior to Project Exile's creation. "Richmond was sort of the Qualcomm of crime," Ludwig told JTO. "It had one of the largest run-ups initially and then when that bubble burst, it had one of the largest falls."

They also note in their article that the decline in gun homicides had begun prior to Project Exile. When they compared the decline in Richmond with other cities, they found it ordinary.

"I'm not intending to bash Project Exile," Ludwig said. "It may be a useful complement to doing other things. But it is not a substitute. It is not a magic cure."

While Project Exile may not be all it's cracked up to be, Ludwig and co-author Jacqueline Cohen, a professor at Carnegie Mellon University, looked at another get-tough approach to gun violence in another chapter of the book and found value in targeted policing programs. These are the efforts, exemplified by the Kansas City Gun Experiment, that employ police patrols to be aggressive in targeted high-crime areas, including such methods as stopping and searching people and cars if they are suspicious.

The problem with targeted policing programs, Ludwig said, is that even though they may get some guns and criminals off the street, there is an extra potential cost to the community when police become too aggressive. In Pittsburgh, though, Ludwig and Cohen found that the police were effective in minimizing community tensions at the same time that "it may have been effective in reducing gun crime. It's an encouraging suggestive picture, but I certainly wouldn't claim that that's the last word on the topic."

While the book questions Operation Exile's exalted status, it takes a much harder line in demolishing a statistic often used by gun-rights supporters: The nation has 20,000 gun laws, so why do we need more? Jon Vernick, director of the Johns Hopkins University Center for Gun Policy and Research, and colleague Lisa Hepburn examine gun laws and their actual number in another chapter and conclude that the figure is essentially a myth. They date the origin of the number to longtime NRA supporter Congressman John Dingell (D-Mich.), who first used the number, without any attribution, in 1965. It's never gone away and it's never been examined.

The purpose of his and Hepburn's research, Vernick told JTO, was to "develop a data set of federal and state gun-control laws" to provide a base for further research. Their purpose, he said, was to establish not just which laws exist, but when they were passed. Dating the laws is important, he said, because it enables longitudinal studies. "If you're trying to figure out the effect of, say, child-access prevention laws on suicide or unintentional deaths, you need to know for a given state and year whether the law was in effect then and what other laws were out there so that you can control for their effect," he said.

The finding about the myth of 20,000 gun laws was the result of that effort. Vernick and Hepburn counted up the federal and state laws dealing with guns and came up with a figure of 300.

"I'm sure there's a way to count 20,000 gun laws if you count not just gun-control laws and laws in every tiny jurisdiction everywhere," he said. "But our conclusion is that you've got 300 or so major state gun-control laws that fit our definition for this chapter and a handful of major federal laws with subparts, but even if you count all the subparts separately you wouldn't get anything approaching 20,000."

Another way of coming up with 20,000, as Vernick noted, might be to add up the plethora of municipal gun statutes of the "no squirrel shooting in the city park" variety. The trouble is, many and probably most of those statutes have been rendered moot by NRA-pushed preemption laws designed to head off any municipality that might seek to pass real gun-control ordinances. Today, more than 40 states preempt all or most local gun-control laws.

In another chapter, Cook and Ludwig examine the claim that guns deter burglary and found it unsupported by the facts. Supporters of the deterrence theory often point to Great Britain, which has higher rates of "hot" burglaries (those that occur when the occupant is home) than in the U.S. Cook and Ludwig found that in England, however, several factors might explain the higher burglary rates: more lenient sentencing, fewer dogs, lower percentages of men in households.

While a more accurate comparison of U.S. vs. U.K. burglary rates won't be valid until those other variables are accounted for, Cook and Ludwig provided more exact comparisons when they looked at burglary rates in urban versus rural area of the U.S. Their conclusion is that guns in the home actually increase the likelihood of burglary. The authors suggest the reason may be that guns are often the targeted loot of a burglar. They found, for instance, that in 14 percent of the residential burglaries in the National Crime Victimization Survey data they analyzed, guns were the only items stolen.

Co-editors Cook and Ludwig hope that the book contributes something valuable to the debate about gun violence in the U.S. "I think that part of what makes the book important is that there are totally new things in it that nobody has looked at before," Ludwig said. "Another reason is that there are things that have been looked at but that the book looks at in a new and more rigorous way."

He said the Lott data and the Donohue/Ayres examination of it falls into that category.

Cook agreed with the assessment that the book is coming out at a time of heightened interest in gun policy as a result of Lott's foibles. "I think it's been useful in bringing social-science research on gun issues back as a news story," he said. "And this book is full of social-science research on gun issues."

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Marko Kloos
February 26, 2003, 06:46 AM
It has absolutely no bearing whether guns cause crime, lower crime, raise crime, or have no effect on crime at all. The exercise of a constitutional right is not dependent upon social utility.

2dogs
February 26, 2003, 07:10 AM
Their conclusion is that guns in the home actually increase the likelihood of burglary

Hmmmmmmmmm, now guns "cause" burglary- that's a fresh tact to take.:neener:

And in England, where there are "no" guns, the reason for burglary is................................?

Hawkman
February 26, 2003, 08:30 AM
And now Lott has ZERO credibility if he tries to defend his work. Way to go, John!:rolleyes:

FPrice
February 26, 2003, 08:38 AM
At this point Lott's best option is to come clean and confess what he did. Remember how Beseilles (sp?) kept denying what he had done? Hopefully someone can convince Lott that it would be best for him and for the community which relied upon him so much for support.

BigG
February 26, 2003, 08:40 AM
In all fairness most of these "social science" studies are bogus as a three-dollar bill. They are chock full of errors in so many ways you can't begin to imagine that they are seriously trying to explain whatever phenomenon they say they are. Most "social science" studies are done to further somebody's agenda and that goes against science right from the git go. Just my 2 pence.

braindead0
February 26, 2003, 09:06 AM
Lott has already come clean, publicly about the Mary Rosh thing. Not sure about the other stuff.


But, this guy Donohue also wrote a paper entitled "Impact of Legalized Abortion on Crime" claiming that legalized abortion causes more crime (I've got a copy in PDF format if anybody wants it).

JohnBT
February 26, 2003, 11:49 AM
"...you've got 300 or so major state gun-control laws that fit our definition..." - explaining why there are not 20,000 gun laws.

Oh, that explains a lot. Sheesh.

So they arbitrarily exclude Richmond City's laws requiring the seller to obtain a permit prior to the sale and the buyer to obtain a permit prior to the sale just because they don't want to count them? Oh, I see. These aren't major enough. Sheesh again.

John

cuchulainn
February 26, 2003, 12:06 PM
John,

You've just isolated the big, honking fallacy in this "study."

They did not count local laws. Period. Why? They assumed that because 40 states have preemption laws that there are a negligible number of local gun laws. That's wrong because:

1) Most localities got their gun laws grandfathered, so the statutes still are on the books despite the bars on new local gun laws -- witness the Richmond law you mention despite Virginia's preemption law.

2) Few preemption laws stop 100% of gun laws -- heck, think of all the "no shooting within town limits" laws.

3) Even if 1 and 2 were not true, it excludes 10 states without preemption laws.

longeyes
February 26, 2003, 02:33 PM
What could Lott have been thinking? Exactly what we DON'T need right now.

Selfdfenz
February 26, 2003, 02:51 PM
"The article, written by professors John Donohue of Stanford Law School and Ian Ayres of Yale Law School, summarize that "if anything there is stronger evidence for the conclusion that these laws increase crime than there is for the conclusion that they decrease it."

Let me see.....one guy from Stanford and the other from Yale....both from the Law Schools...not traditionally very pro-2nd in the past....and they find CCW/CHL laws cause crime rather than deter or reduce it........and.....

Ooops, my bullsh-t detector is going off again.

Now where were we?
S-


(Sorry Oleg, my no-bad word promises are faulty, are they not?)

TallPine
February 26, 2003, 02:53 PM
And here all this time I thought I was living in a "low crime" state ... :rolleyes:

Frohickey
February 26, 2003, 03:04 PM
Lott has already come clean with the Mary Rosh pseudonym.

Lott has also redone his survey with new data, and the new data matches the results of the old survey that was lost during a computer hard drive crash.

Quartus
February 26, 2003, 08:26 PM
Frohickey, got link? Any kind of reference?

Standing Wolf
February 26, 2003, 08:59 PM
The problem with targeted policing programs, Ludwig said, is that even though they may get some guns and criminals off the street, there is an extra potential cost to the community when police become too aggressive.

That "too aggressive" is quantified in terms of...?

The entire article is leftist extremist baloney.

Zander
February 26, 2003, 09:47 PM
The book's co-editors, Philip J. Cook, a professor of public policy at Duke University, and Jens Ludwig, an associate professor of public policy at Georgetown University,...Some things never change. Cook and Ludwig are well-known whores for federal-grant "studies" that justify gun control.

They are masters at producing "research" which support a pre-determined conclusion; i.e., guns are eeeeeeevil. They should be accorded the same scorn and professional sanction so richly earned by Michael Bellesiles.

Frohickey
February 26, 2003, 10:01 PM
Frohickey, got link? Any kind of reference?

Sure... Clayton Cramer's BLOG (http://www.claytoncramer.com/weblog/2003_01_19_archive.html)

The Lott (John Lott) Controversy Has Been Resolved

The 1997 survey on defensive gun use that some people have been saying was a fraud, and never took place? The matter has been resolved. Someone (an attorney) came forward who was surveyed in the right period of time, with the right sort of questions. Professor James Lindgren, who had clearly become very skeptical of Dr. Lott's claims that the survey did happen, and a hard disk crash destroyed all his data, has interviewed the attorney who was surveyed, and Professor Lindgren finds him credible. Best of all, even Tim Lambert, a gun control advocate who has been Dr. Lott's chief inquisitor on this matter, seems to have accepted the validity of this evidence.

I've seen the email on this from the attorney in question--a former assistant district attorney who was fired for defending himself from a criminal attack using a gun. (No charges were filed; his employer, I guess, figured it was better for him to be dead than alive.) I am very happy to hear that this is resolved; Dr. Lott and I have been talking almost nightly about this matter for the last week, and I doubt that it has been good for his blood pressure.
posted by Clayton at 7:28 AM

Quartus
February 26, 2003, 10:19 PM
Gracias! Not sure if a blog is a great source, but having the chain of events is very helpful!

twoblink
February 26, 2003, 10:22 PM
Ok.. forget the stats, forget the studies..

Do the simple "common sense" test.

Two houses... stick two signs on it..

Sign #1 says "Owner armed"

Sign #2 says "Owner unarmed, against all firearms and dangerous weapons."

Which house is more likely to be robbed??

Yeah... :rolleyes:

You want real stats? Go to a prison, ask all the thieves and robbers the same question, see what the survey results are...

These studies generated from academia is just pure PURE BS.

Don Gwinn
February 26, 2003, 10:30 PM
Lendringser, you're right, but I fear we've burned that bridge by staking our claim on social utility for the past ten years.

2dogs, you weren't around in the TFL days, were you? You can be forgiven for not knowing this, since Agricola seems not to have made the trip over here:

1. In the U.S., guns cause crime.

2. In the UK, cell phones cause crime.

I am not kidding. Look it up at TFL if you don't believe anyone would make that claim.

SIGarmed
February 27, 2003, 01:16 AM
So if Lott creates a false critic his findings have no merit?

If liberals lie their findings have merit?

:rolleyes:

We're used to this already. Its the same old bogus double standard.

Coronach
February 27, 2003, 02:01 AM
SIGarmed-

The trouble is that once you tarnish yourself (as Lott most assuredly did), the media will focus on that and suddenly all of your reasoned points are stright out the window. Now, we all know that if I commit a social gaffe in a debate, it does not automatically invalidate my entire argument, but this is the media we're talking about. Perception is everything. Logic is meaningless.

Twoblink:
Ok.. forget the stats, forget the studies..

Do the simple "common sense" test.

Two houses... stick two signs on it..

Sign #1 says "Owner armed"

Sign #2 says "Owner unarmed, against all firearms and dangerous weapons."

Which house is more likely to be robbed??Robbed, or burglarized? Don't mix and match terms that are not interchangable. A house with guns MIGHT be less likley to be the victim of a home invasion (probably IS less likely once you factor out the one-drug-dealer-kicking-in-another-drug-dealer's-door scenarios), but it is probably a more attricative target for a burglary, hence the sales of these very large and expensive items we call 'gun safes.' All you gotta do is make sure the gun owner leaves for work, then game on.

You want real stats? Go to a prison, ask all the thieves and robbers the same question, see what the survey results are...

These studies generated from academia is just pure PURE BS.Unless its from an academic named Lott with bad eyebrows and a case of MPD, right? ;)

I mean, I'm with ya, but those are weak arguments.

Mike

Seeker
February 27, 2003, 02:52 AM
From the original article: Lott, however, has come under intense recent criticism for his work. First, Julian Sanchez, a pro-gun, libertarian Cato Institute researcher, found evidence that Lott had created a fictitious soulmate named Mary Rosh to glowingly review his work on the Internet. Second, Northwestern University law professor James Lindgren reported that he had investigated Lott's claim of a 1997 survey which found that "98 percent of the time that people use guns defensively, they merely have to brandish a weapon to break off an attack," and found no evidence of the survey's existence.

From this (http://www.reason.com/0303/fe.jm.disarming.shtml) article that I read earlier today: ...Fall 2000. Even before the book is in print, having read both Bellesiles’ 1996 article that formed the core of the book and advance press coverage, Northwestern University law professor James Lindgren asks to see Bellesiles’ probate database. Bellesiles tells him there is no database, only yellow legal pads on which he made pencil ticks representing guns listed in the probate records. Unfortunately, Bellesiles reports, the pads were irreparably damaged in a May 2000 flood at Emory University
and
Readers point out that Arming America lacks any specific information about the 11,170 probates examined, how many there were from any one county or any one time period, where Bellesiles examined them, and how he computed the national averages. Lindgren (a specialist in early American probates), Justin Heather, and other scholars eventually discover that Bellesiles’ computations are mathematically impossible. To obtain his national gun ownership average of 14.7 percent, for example, the number of probates from frontier counties would have had to be improbably large.

The archivists at the federal archives in East Point, Georgia, where Bellesiles told Lindgren he did most of the probate work, insist they never had the probate records. Bellesiles changes his story, saying he crisscrossed the country for 10 years visiting individual county archives. He can’t remember precisely which ones.


It looks like Lindgren ain't buyin' from Lott or Bellesiles.

publius
February 27, 2003, 07:28 AM
Lott did come clean when confronted about inventing Mary. It isn't Mary that's the problem. She can be called a marketing gimmick.

The problem is the "research" on "merely brandishing" guns. His dog ate his research, just like Bellesiles.

That's not what he says. He says he can't remember a single student who helped him with this big study. He says he lost every bit of evidence that he conducted this study in a hard drive crash. He's produced one guy, kind of questionable, who says he was interviewed in the study. He claims he's doing another study, and that the results confirm the "lost" one.

Yeah, right.

Think about it. 98% of the times a gun is used in self defense, it is shown but not fired? It doesn't sound plausible to me. Anything a BG does which causes me to draw my Glock is extremely likely to cause me to fire it. The statistic is appealing to gun advocates because it implies that many instances of self defense are undocumented, and Lott has finally documented those.

Well, it looks like he didn't.

2dogs
February 27, 2003, 07:38 AM
Look it up at TFL if you don't believe anyone would make that claim.

Don Gwinn

Nothing would surprise me anymore, absolutely nothing.:rolleyes:

cuchulainn
February 27, 2003, 09:29 AM
There's still Gary Kleck

publius
February 27, 2003, 10:49 AM
There's still Gary Kleck...


To whom Lott apparently falsely attributed stuff he made up.

Gary H
February 27, 2003, 11:01 AM
The fog of battle. Do any of you have a personal relationship with Lott? Would be reasonable to invite him over. Find out where this thing stands. Regardless of the reality of this situation, the media will bury him.

SIGarmed
March 1, 2003, 01:15 AM
publius,

Where are you getting your info?
Please share.

mack
March 1, 2003, 02:42 AM
I for one want to see the data and how it was used in this new book before I make any judgement on its credibility or lack thereof. As for those who are so willing to dismiss Lott's work - please show me the data and evidence that refutes it. If you can't then you are engaging in the liberal’s favorite game of trashing the messenger, and then using the public perception you have thereby created to dismiss their work.

If Bellesiles had been guilty of the "horrible" sins associated with Lott so far - he would still have his prize, his book would still be in print, he would still have his position at Emery, and he would still be lionized by gun control advocates and the press.

On the other hand, some here have already - (in a fit or self-righteous pique and/or blind panic at any hint that Lott made a mistake in judgement or may be besmirched by unproven allegations) - thrown not only the man, but the primary substance of his research out the window. Give me a break, the man has a well-documented body of work that has held up under years of aggressive attack by gun control advocates and their acolytes in the academic community. I find it sad that some seem so eager now to aid them in their work.

I do not advocate blind loyalty to any man or to the work of any man - but before I will dismiss Lott's work I want to see the evidence that it is wrong. I suggest that anyone who is truly interested in the truth should do the same.

Sergeant Bob
March 1, 2003, 03:37 AM
publius,

Where are you getting your info?
Please share.

The other Lott controversy (http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=30873)
When Lott cited the statistic peripherally on page three of his book, he attributed it to "national surveys." In the second edition, he changed the citation to "a national survey that I conducted." He has also incorrectly attributed the figure to newspaper polls and Florida State University criminologist Gary Kleck.

________________________________________________
Lindgren's report (http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~lambert/guns/lindgren.html)
That means that the source that Lott gave for the 98% figure has shifted over time:



1. In the 1998 edition of More Guns, Less Crime, John Lott attributes the 98% figure to “national surveys.”



2. Elsewhere in 1997 and 1998, Lott appears to attribute the 98% figure to “such polls” as the “Los Angeles Times, Gallup and Peter Hart Research Associates.”



3. In a May 13, 1999 letter and in 1999 revisions to the 2000 edition of his book, Lott attributes the 98% number instead to his own 1997 study, saying in the letter that the 98% figure is not based on Kleck.



4. In almost identical February 9, 2000 and March 1, 2000 articles for the Independence Institute, Lott switches to attributing the 98% figure, not to his own study, but to Gary Kleck’s (which does not support this figure).



5. In the Criminologist (Sept./Oct. 2000), Lott switches back to claiming that the 98% figure came from Lott’s own 1997 study, not from Kleck, which is where things stand as of this report.

publius
March 1, 2003, 08:03 AM
SIGArmed,

The Sarge there is better informed than I am. I just like reading Michelle Malkin over at townhall.com. She really tore Lott a new one over this recently. She called the whole Mary thing "beyond creepy." I thought that was funny, though I don't agree. I don't have any real problem with Lott's invention of Mary, other than it seems pathetic. My problem is his "dog ate my research" story.

Think about what that means. In Lott, we had a valuable weapon for the gun rights community. Before parts of his work began to wither under fire, the whole of it was instrumental in gun debates nationwide, especially regarding CWPs. He's actually part of the reason I finally gave in and got myself a CWP. I was thinking, one day, John Lott is going to count one more person because of me, and what he finds will piss off the gun grabbers and comfort me.

By fabricating part of his research, he's destroyed it all. He's become Lott the Liar. Even the good work he's done is greatly reduced in value.

My only comfort is that his research will no longer be used to encourage people to believe that you can stop a crime by merely brandishing your gun 98% of the time. Lott made that dangerous piece of nonsense up.

Quartus
March 1, 2003, 08:34 AM
Hmmmm. The blog seems to be at odds with Sergeant Bob's source. So I see the jury as being still out on this.

But if it is true that Lott fabricated the evidence, then we are left with...


...with friends like these, who needs enemies? :fire:



<sigh> When will people learn that truth is the most potent weapon?

bad_dad_brad
March 1, 2003, 12:41 PM
I have read Lott's book. Personally, I find it a bit weak regarding the argument that more guns in the hands of responsible citizens means less crime. I agree with his premise however. He did a better job showing how ineffective and stupid most gun laws are.

Sometimes books like this actually have a detrimental affect on gun owner's rights. No anti will ever read it.

I am just surprised it took the anti crowd so long to refute it.

ojibweindian
March 1, 2003, 01:06 PM
This is crap. Pure and simple.

We do not need "studies" and "facts" to "prove" a FREEDOM or FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT exists.

It's quite simple. People have a right and the freedom to defend themselves, speak, own property, etc, etc, etc.

Sergeant Bob
March 1, 2003, 01:13 PM
Critics target data in 'More Guns, Less Crime' (http://washingtontimes.com/national/20030123-5349416.htm)
By Robert Stacy McCain
THE WASHINGTON TIMES

Although others have confirmed that Mr. Lott's computer was wiped out in a literal crash — a bookcase fell on it — evidence of his 1997 survey has been harder to find.

"I lost essentially all my data for everything I'd written that wasn't co-authored," Mr. Lott said in a telephone interview. "So what happened was that I spent that summer and the next two years replacing all the data. The problem with the survey data is that you can't go back to a primary source and replace that."
_________________________________________________
If I faced the prospect of spending 2 1/2 years replacing data for a book, I would try to find a way to retrieve the data from the "crashed" hard drive. In most hard drive "crashes", physical or otherwise, the data is retrieveable.

Quartus
March 1, 2003, 01:17 PM
Yeah, even if a bookcase fell on it while the disk was actually reading data, causing what is known as a 'head crash', most of the data can be retrieved. There are oodles of companies that will take your money and give you your data back. Generally around $800 is the starting point, and figure maybe 3 times that for a really bad crash.

But what's that compared to the cost of publishing a book? The publishing house could have picked up the tab with no problem.


BTW, ojibweindian, it's not about proving a right exists. It's about winning a political battle, which means persuading the Great Mass of Ignorant Americans to take your side. It's about the Middle of the Roaders who VOTE. Just asserting a right that they don't understand and have been taught doesn't exist will NOT help us.

ojibweindian
March 1, 2003, 01:24 PM
I'm not so sure about winning the political battle with studies, etc. Let's face it, most of the studies, on either side, are so hotly contested, and the authors so discredited, that these studies, I believe, contribute to the confusion and the vitriol of the debate.

Brett Bellmore
March 1, 2003, 03:10 PM
Quartus, a drive can crash and take out the entire drive, if you leave it running after the crash. (Takes a while, as debris bounces around inside it, and damage snowballs.) Had it happen to one of mine. :eek: Maybe newer drives are tougher. I hope so, anyway.

But I think the key point to recall is that the survey in question, which has now been replicated, had nada to do with Lott's "More guns, less crime" thesis. It related to one solitary sentence in the book. Bellesiles' fraud was from one end of the book to the other, he didn't HAVE a book once you took out everything wrong in it.

At this point the worst that can really be said about that survey is that the sample size was too small to make it significant. Which is bad enough, but not Bellesiles scale wrongdoing.

Sergeant Bob
March 1, 2003, 03:49 PM
But I think the key point to recall is that the survey in question, which has now been replicated, had nada to do with Lott's "More guns, less crime" thesis.
Stating that in 98% of incidences involving the defensive use of guns no shots were fired has nothing to do with a book about the defensive use of guns? I think it's very important.

It related to one solitary sentence in the book. Bellesiles' fraud was from one end of the book to the other, he didn't HAVE a book once you took out everything wrong in it.
That's moral relativism, he isn't as bad as Bellesile's, so it's OK?

At this point the worst that can really be said about that survey is that the sample size was too small to make it significant.
Actually, the worst that could be said is he lied outright (if the reports are true), and his credibility is suspect. If he started the book with a lie, what reason is there to believe anything else he writes?

The difference between us and the anti's (ideally) is we refuse to compromise our principles, and do not accept lies and junk science (even from people on our side), just because it fits our agenda.

Brett Bellmore
March 1, 2003, 04:52 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stating that in 98% of incidences involving the defensive use of guns no shots were fired has nothing to do with a book about the defensive use of guns? I think it's very important.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It has very little to do with the question of whether concealed carry reform reduces crime rates. Or else one presumes Lott would have expended more than one sentence on the subject in his book. Look, it was just a passing mention!


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's moral relativism, he isn't as bad as Bellesile's, so it's OK?
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He isn't as as bad as Bellesiles, so he isn't as bad. That's not moral relativism, that's a sense of proportion. Jaywalkers and serial killers aren't in the same league.

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Actually, the worst that could be said is he lied outright (if the reports are true), and his credibility is suspect. If he started the book with a lie, what reason is there to believe anything else he writes?
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Ok, to be precise, the worst that could be said with any certainty is that the sample size was too small for the result to be significant. Admittedly, people can say anything they want, if they're just blowing off steam, and don't care whether they can back it up with evidence.

The hard drive crash has been confirmed. A second survey has produced comparable results. Maybe we could ask Bellesiles to go back and take another look at the San Francisco court records that burned before he was born, and see if he gets the same results? :rolleyes:

I'm not happy that Lott has proven to have feet, (And shins!) of clay. But he's no Bellesiles, and that's for sure. The worst that's been proven of Lott is that he's occasionally sloppy on minor points, and perhaps a tacky self promoter.

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