What is considered a decent group offhand?


PDA






Moparmike
October 31, 2004, 05:55 PM
Ok, I have very little experience with rifles, like around 150rds or so, none of which was really shot for accuracy (I hit some tin cans a couple times).

Anyway, I just got a russian .22lr trainer, and was shooting it at 25yds. I used a pistol case for vertical stability (it didnt help much, so its "semi" offhand). Doing that, I shot a couple 1.5in groups at 25 yds. How terrible is that?

Another thing is that irons seem really difficult to use for me. My eye is strained, the sights go blurry, and I cant see the target well. Maybe its time I went to an eye doctor?:confused:

If you enjoyed reading about "What is considered a decent group offhand?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Mal H
October 31, 2004, 06:34 PM
Uh .... well .... um ....

Are you sure you weren't shooting a handgun? ;)

Really, if the sights are blurred and the target is blurred, it is indeed time to have the eyes checked. It is amazing how important having sharp iron sights is for accuracy, much more important than having a sharp target.

1.5" groups at 25 yards with a rifle with a fairly decent reputation? "How terrible is that?"

Um ... uh ...

Oh wait! You said it was essentially off hand - actually that's not too bad at all. :)

rbernie
October 31, 2004, 06:51 PM
I shot a couple 1.5in groups at 25 yds. How terrible is that? That's as good as I can do. If it sucks, well then - I suck too. :)

Mulliga
October 31, 2004, 07:12 PM
That's about right. I find the trainer .22s have pretty good iron sights, though, so do be sure to get your eyes checked.

pbhome71
October 31, 2004, 07:26 PM
My eye is strained, the sights go blurry, and I cant see the target well.

You are not suppose to see the target and the front sight well at the same time.

You either see the target well, or see the fronts sight well. However, if you see the target well, you did not do it right. You suppose to focus on the front sight, not target, not rear sight.

Hope it help. BTW, what russian's trainer is that? Is it one of the Mosin looks alike?

-Pat

Moparmike
October 31, 2004, 07:46 PM
If you aren't supposed to see the target, then how can you know that you are going to hit at what you are aiming at? Further, how can you know that you are "aiming" at what needs to be hit?:confused:

pbhome71
October 31, 2004, 08:05 PM
I think the key is that you switch your focus between the target and the front-sight. But when you want to break the shot, focus on front-sight.

DMK
October 31, 2004, 08:14 PM
If you aren't supposed to see the target, then how can you know that you are going to hit at what you are aiming at? It's not that you aren't supposed to see the target, you just aren't supposed to focus on it. The front sight should be sharp and clear, the target should be blurry. Focus on the sharp edge of your front sight and center it over the middle of the blurry target.

Further, how can you know that you are "aiming" at what needs to be hit? Focus on the target for a quick ID, then shift your focus to the front sight.

If you can't "see" the target, don't shoot at it. However, if you can see the target, but it's blurry (and your front sight is sharp and clear), then you're doing it right.

mustanger98
October 31, 2004, 09:24 PM
Which type rear sight does the Russian trainer .22 have- aperture or tangent? Apertures are easier to use- you look through it rather than at it and focus on the front sight. Tangent sights are a little more difficult in that you have to pay attention to three points at once instead of two.

Yeah, I'd say you'd better be getting your eye checked soon.

But, if you were getting 1.5" groups at 25yds offhand, that's a good start. Keep practicing. But lose the support. I've found my offhand .22 rifle shooting has improved using my version of the recommended stance for smallbore sillouette competition.

wanderinwalker
October 31, 2004, 10:52 PM
Although the cone of fire isn't a perfect thing, 1.5" @ 25 yards would be 6" at 100 yards should be 12" at 200 yards. Yeah, that's pretty good. Consider, I am a Master-class Highpower shooter, and on a good day my offhand groups will hover just over 12" at 200 yards for 10-20 rounds. (On a GREAT day I once had 8 in <7", but I broke two off high for a 98/100.)

You're shooting fine. However, the sight/vision issue needs to be looked at. Ideally you are only focused on that front sight. The target is just a blur, the rear sight is kind of fuzzed as well. This is why aperture sights are so nice, as you only have to worry about target/front sight relationship, which is straightfoward enough.

Perhaps the sights are too close to your eyes? Just a thought to check. Anyway, good luck and keep up the good shooting.

Standing Wolf
October 31, 2004, 11:31 PM
My eye is strained, the sights go blurry, and I cant see the target well. Maybe its time I went to an eye doctor?

Seeing a good eye doctor is always worth your while. If you're over thirty, the odds are high you're not going to be able to see the rear sight, front sight, and target all at once. The good news is you can scope your rifle and elude the problem.

Moparmike
October 31, 2004, 11:36 PM
Turned 21 in July, havent been to an eye doctor in 4 years.




The sights are a fold-down type notch. The 25yd is stationary, with the 50yd and 100yd being on individual "flaps" behind it that fold rearward.

mustanger98
October 31, 2004, 11:38 PM
The good news is you can scope your rifle and elude the problem.

While I won't disagree that scoping the rifle being a solution is good news, it's also not the only option. I mention aperture sights- I've read from some guys who said they can shoot aperture sights without their glasses, whereas with V-notch rear sights, they can't half see 'em with their glasses on.

FWIW, I sometime get my vision blurred while shooting V-notch sights, but I don't have that problem with an aperture. I know it sounds like I'm really hung up on aperture sights, but I also know a few other guys- over 50, but I'm 30- who say they can't shoot open sights and have to use apertures.

Mulliga
October 31, 2004, 11:55 PM
The sights are a fold-down type notch. The 25yd is stationary, with the 50yd and 100yd being on individual "flaps" behind it that fold rearward.

Sounds a lot like the Romanian trainer sights. For being a non-peep sight, I find that they work well - the front sight post is nice and bold (easy to focus on), and it's not too difficult to center it in the rear sight notch (which should be blurry, as others have said).

Try using vivid targets. I find that it can be difficult to get the same sight picture for a 6" dia. black target on a piece of paper, but it's much easier when you put a 2" dia. red dot right in the center of the target. Also consider standing up those orange clay pigeons and shooting them from 50 and 75 yards away.

Moparmike
October 31, 2004, 11:58 PM
By aperature, you mean the same type of sights that an AR-15 uses? I had never used one of those before I went to a TN Mafia shoot in June. I fell in love with the sights (but not that infernal "SprOOOIIINNggg" sound) and was putting them all into a BBQ propane tank at 50yds, standing.



And as far as scoping goes, I think it has already been done (it seems to have 2 warn grooves on the barrel/reciever). I know I can, but I am trying to learn how to use irons. Especially if I expect to hit anything with my Mauser if I take it hunting.

mustanger98
November 1, 2004, 12:00 AM
Also consider standing up those orange clay pigeons and shooting them from 50 and 75 yards away.

That's what I do for a 100yd target. My Daddy was commenting to somebody at the range a while back, he said on paper I'm all over the place, but if it's a clay pigeon or a little rock on the 100yd berm, I'll hit it. I think there are two reasons- 1) I can see it, and 2) I can see where my bullets are hitting and adjust my sights accordingly and walk 'em in.

mustanger98
November 1, 2004, 12:03 AM
I fell in love with the sights (but not that infernal "SprOOOIIINNggg" sound) and was putting them all into a BBQ propane tank at 50yds, standing.

Those are the sights I'm talking about. They are also present on the Mini-14/Mini-30, M14 (7.62mmNATO), M1 Garand (.30-06) and some others. They're commercially available for most sporters too.

Moparmike
November 1, 2004, 12:25 AM
I too do better with physical targets. Give me a tin can or an AOHell CD and that sucker is toast. I once thought my .22 revolver was off, until I realized that I kept hitting in teh hole I made with previous shots...:o

30Cal
November 1, 2004, 01:35 PM
If you aren't supposed to see the target, then how can you know that you are going to hit at what you are aiming at? Further, how can you know that you are "aiming" at what needs to be hit?

Focus on the front sight. You'll be able to see the target, it will just be a little blurry--it will in no way prevent you from pointing the rifle at it. Even if the target appears blurry, I'm pretty confident that you'd be able to point to the center of it 10 times out of 10.

The alignment of the front and rear sight is crucial if you're going to shoot decently. The only way to do this is to focus on the front sight. In case I haven't made it clear, the most important thing is to FOCUS ONLY ON THE FRONT SIGHT. If you focus on the target or shift your focus from the sight to the target, your groups will forever be mediocre at best.

A good way to force your eyes to do what they should is to shoot at the center of a blank sheet of paper. Try it--I guarantee you'll shoot tighter than if you were aiming at a bullseye or other target.

Last thing: focus on the front sight. Also, try blackening it with candle soot. Nothing stands better than a nice BLACK front sight.

spacemanspiff
November 1, 2004, 02:09 PM
i really need a decent .22 rifle. the marlin i have just doesnt give me a warm fuzzy feeling. offhand (and by offhand i mean sitting/standing using only my arms to support the rifle, save for maybe an elbow on the bench) i have to walk my shots to the target, and i cheat cause it does have a scope on it.
my next .22 rifle will have iron sights only.

for real rifles, when i shoot offhand, i'm more impressed. just the other day i was putting the mauser through its paces, took a dead hard drive out, spray painted it hot pink, and hung it off a tree. from 75 yards, i took the first five shots at it, two hits within 2 inches of each other. at a target 5"x8" i was shooting a tad high. next ten shots got 4 more hits, three grouped together up high again, and one low.

that was standing. for me and my skills, getting 6 hits out of 15 shots on a target smaller than a human head gave me a warm fuzzy feeling. which i needed cause it was freezing cold!

i also boosted my pride when i took aim at a orange plastic trick-or-treat pumpkin (bout the size of a basketball) with my kimber, and at 150 yards, hit it on the second shot. complete luck, since at tha distance i really have to tweak the upward angle. but no one else at the range knew that. :D

williamcrane
November 1, 2004, 03:14 PM
As seen other places on this group, the .22 lr cartridge is one of the flatest, most accurate shooting cartridges in the world - which may account for the fact that it's been around for 147 years. Therefore, I would think you should be able to shoot ten rounds into a dime sized hole without even aiming. :evil:

If you enjoyed reading about "What is considered a decent group offhand?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!