Gun shows, a diffrent world


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mephisto
February 26, 2003, 11:03 AM
Gun shows. I went to a show last weekend in Phoenix and ran into some very strange folks. I can only say that there are some people that should stay in their homes all the time. When you see a guy dressed in a WWI British uniform with his .303 Enfield and full battle pack on you have to wonder what the hell he is thinking. I followed him around for a bit just to see what he was looking for. Nothing. He would just chat about his “getup” and the fact that he had a 1911 with 10, yes 10, clips in his battle pack. 10 clips with 7 rounds in each clip and his Enfield had a bayonet. Crazy. After a while I ran into a buddy that had a table that told me this guy goes to every gun show in town. While I was there some idiots tried to rip-off some guns. Why would anyone try a five finger discount at a gun show? Every merchant has a gun. There is tons of security there. Well they did not get far. The best part of the gun show is there are no bad guns. Ask any dealer and they will tell you that. I asked one guy about 8 guns and all of them were great, 4 of them I had never even seen or heard about before. I bought a cz-97 for 450 from a guy that was looking for a trade for a glock 23. I think I did well. I love gun shows.
Mephisto

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Chipperman
February 26, 2003, 12:01 PM
How many Brits carried a 1911 in WWI? :scrutiny:

10-Ring
February 26, 2003, 12:22 PM
I use to enjoy going to gun shows. Got some really good deals on ALOT of stuff (guns & accessories alike). As long as they're run properly, they can be a lot of fun.

Greybeard
February 26, 2003, 12:59 PM
Some of the gun shows around DFW will have some individuals like the Brit, but the vast majority are your ordinary folks ...

buford1
February 26, 2003, 01:06 PM
I kinda liked those guys dressed up in military uniforms. Besides whats wrong with playing the part ?

.45Ruger
February 26, 2003, 01:19 PM
I saw the same guy at the show this weekend and thought it was a little strange. But hey, to each his own. This gun show was immence and VERY crowded. I waited in line over an hour to comlete the paperwork for my new Sar-1. But at $278.50 I didn't mind a bit.

mrstang01
February 26, 2003, 01:22 PM
.45Ruger, did they have any more of those?

braindead0
February 26, 2003, 01:41 PM
Some of those people in 'period garb' are reenactors, or simply looking to hook up with like minded folks and get into reenactment events, possibly even in movies.

When I did a lot of 15-16th century Scots/Irish, we managed to get a lot of interesting gigs..just by being us. One of my friends got some good bucks for allowing WaxWorks II to use his armor in the movie (yeah, cheese..B movie..but it's money). Also got a bunch of us on "Army of Darkness", because we come with our own gear.

Selfdfenz
February 26, 2003, 01:48 PM
There is one show in particular in Dallas that has a combo militaria show. Lots of guys dressed as German soldiers. They strike me a maybe a little on the weird side but then again it's interesting to see what a German soldier might have looked like. They wore really faded uniforms I've come to find out. They do have some fairly interesting jeeps and such.

Since CAS became popular I have gotten used to seeing "cowboys" at shows. Some of them really work on their outfits. But then again, in TX lots of folks dress like cowboys everyday except for the gun belt and six guns.

S-

mephisto
February 26, 2003, 01:56 PM
I don’t have a problem with people who dress up,I just think its funny. Ruger, who did u by the sar-1 from? That was the biggest gun show, as in people, I have been at.

Mephisto

Soap
February 26, 2003, 01:59 PM
I don't find the anachronisms strange (even if they get historical details incorrect)...but rather the people that are so fat they are barely mobile. Heart disease will get these people before the UN ever will...yet they worry and rant about the UN.

Smoke
February 26, 2003, 02:07 PM
The period guys don't bother me near as much as the Mall-ninja's, LEO wannabe's. Neo-Nazis, and black helicopter crowd. Nor do I like the irreputable dealers that have jacked up prices, lie, and think everyone else is stupid. Not all dealers at shows are like that but there are invariaby some.

I've almost quit going to gunshows. Only once every couple of years. I also have yet to leave with anything. Never found any good deals there.

COHIBA
February 26, 2003, 02:26 PM
i'd like to dress up in black cammies w/ a black hood and goggles and walk around w/ an M4 and USP i a thigh rig.h

Tamara
February 26, 2003, 02:33 PM
I like gun shows: I got a short lever Martini-Henry in .577-450 at a recent on. :)

care-less
February 26, 2003, 02:49 PM
maybe we should all be clones, and look alike:rolleyes: Shoot exactly the same guns and cartridges. Some of these people are very interesting to talk with. Try it next time.:)

Dorrin79
February 26, 2003, 03:19 PM
Some observations -

1) here in Austin, most of the attendees seemed to be fairly normal 'folk'. Many from the redneck end of Normal, but normal nontheless. Only a handful of Mall Ninjas and guys in secondhand uniforms.

2) gun selection was not what I would have expected in many ways. There were very few C&R milsurp type weapons (1 bulgie Makarov in the whole place, not a Mauser 98K to be found) other than SKSs and AKs.

which leads me to my other observation...

3) prices were TERRIBLE. Said Makarov was going for $200 (and it was not in very good condition) SKSs (cheap ChiCom ones, at that) were 150+, Yugos were 200+. Rifles also seemed overpriced - a used Marlin 336 in .30-30 was 325$, when they have them brand new at WalMart for $275. Ruger M77s were 500 and up, used. You get the idea. Perhaps some of the other things (like ARs) that I don't know much about were better deals.

The best prices seemed to be from the local gun retailers who had come in and set up booths; their prices were around what I would expect to pay for the various guns they were offering. Of course, no need to go to a gun show to buy from a retailer with their own shop.

All that said, I'll be going back. I just wanted to comment that it certainly doesn't match up to my expectations.

nathan
February 26, 2003, 03:30 PM
Its hard to find deals in gunshows nowadays. I rather buy direct from the big houses and pay FFL$15 and shipping. It still comes out less than these suckers. I mainly go to have ideas what I want to know of a particular gun. AMmo is another thing. It saves you shipping hassle and waiting time. Turk ammo are way to cheap , my favorite.

Destructo6
February 26, 2003, 03:48 PM
At the old LA County gunshow, there was a costume contest, so there was a reason to be dressed up. Also, there were some re-enactors and historical vehicle groups that showed up with Pinkys and whatnot.

Maybe these were doing the same?

JerryN
February 26, 2003, 03:50 PM
I went to two gun shows this past weekend and had a great time looking at and handling lots of firearms, especially the ones you don't see every day.

I tried to buy some S. African 5.56 and some tracers off one guy but he would only take cash! What the heck is up with that? Tax evasion? I had some cash earlier but had spent most of it by then. I couldn't give this guy any money! No checks or plastic either.

Too bad. I'll have to just keep buying off the internet.

Poodleshooter
February 26, 2003, 04:01 PM
Tax evasion?
That and a reluctance to take the risk of checks or the % merchant fees required by vendors who accept Visa or mastercard.
On a side note about gunshow vendors, I've never seen so many vendors who blatantly violate the Visa policy against charging the merchant fees against customers. Gunshow salespeople LOVE to put out those "discount for cash" or "+3% for Visa/Mastercard" signs.
I'll be hitting the Richmond,VA show on Saturday...cash in hand and Glock in holster. Have to keep the powder and bullet stocks up.
I wish more reenactors showed up at our local gunshows.

Justin
February 26, 2003, 04:29 PM
Best strategy I've found for going to a gunshow:

Research what you want ahead of time, find out what a decent price is for the gun/ammo/stuff you want to buy. Look for that.

Bring a wad of cash. The old saying about money talks and you-know-what walks is liberally applied at gunshows. If someone sets off your BS meter, don't bother talking, just walk away. (like the idiot at the last show that wanted $125 for a 15 round CZ-75 magazine.)


Goofy people are part of the atmosphere. Ignore 'em, or keep an eye on 'em, but don't lose any sleep over it.

submin
February 26, 2003, 04:45 PM
I like mine with home made strawberry ice-cream on it. The kind with real fruit in it. Nuts are ok as long as they aren't peanuts. :rolleyes: "May Heaven deliver us from our friends; We can handle the enemy. Lt. Gen. George S Patton Jr.

Sisco
February 26, 2003, 04:50 PM
This has been around for a while, but for the benefit of those who haven't see it yet here it is again!

COMPREHENSIVE GUIDE TO GUN SHOWS:
************
Gun shows are run by and for dreamers. Every dealer who sets up a table seems to think that the people who attend are half-wits who will happily pay 25% more than manufacturer's suggested retail price for their goods; and all the attendees hold it as an article of faith that the exhibitors are desperate men who have come in the hopes of finally disposing of their stock at 30% less than wholesale cost. In this environment it helps to have some idea what to expect; so for the benefit of those who are so unfortunate as never to have experienced this distinctively American form of mass entertainment, I offer this guide.

GLOSSARY
The following terms apply to items offered for sale:

MINT CONDITION: In original condition as manufactured, unfired, and preferably in the original box with all manufacturer's tags, labels, and paperwork.

NEAR-MINT CONDITION: Has had no more than 5,000 rounds fired through it and it still retains at least 60% of the original finish. Surface pitting is no more than 1/8" deep, and both grip panels are in place. If it is a .22, some of the rifling is still visible.

VERY GOOD: Non-functional when you buy it, but you can probably get it to work if you replace 100% of the parts.

FAIR: Rusted into a solid mass with a shape vaguely reminscent of a firearm.

TIGHT: In revolvers, the cylinder swings out, but you need two hands to close it again. For autoloaders, you must bang the front of the slide on a table to push it back.

REALLY TIGHT: In revolvers you cannot open the cylinder without a lever. Once it's open the extractor rod gets stuck halfway through its travel. On autoloaders, you need a hammer to close the slide.

A LITTLE LOOSE: In revolvers, the cylinder falls out and the chambers are 1/4" out of line when locked up. There is no more than 1/2" of end play. For autoloaders, the barrel falls out when the slide is retracted. If the barrel stays in place, the slide falls off.

GOOD BORE: You can tell it was once rifled and even approximately how many grooves there were.

FAIR BORE: Would be similar to GOOD BORE, if you could see light through it.

NEEDS A LITTLE WORK: May function sometimes if you have a gunsmith replace minor parts, such as the bolt, cylinder, or barrel.

ARSENAL RECONDITIONED: I cleaned it up with a wire wheel and some stuff I bought at K-Mart.

ANTIQUE: I found it in a barn, and I think it dates from before 1960. Note that ANTIQUE guns are usually found in FAIR condition.

RARE VARIANT: No more than 500,000 of this model were ever made, not counting the ones produced before serial numbers were required. RARE VARIANTS command a premium price of 150% of BOOK VALUE.

BOOK VALUE: An irrational number which dealers consider insultingly low and buyers ridiculously high. Since no one pays any attention to it, it doesn't matter.

IT BELONGED TO MY GRANDFATHER: I bought it at a flea market two weeks ago.

CIVIL WAR RELIC: The vendor's great-grandfather knew a man whose friend had been in the Civil War.

SHOOTS REAL GOOD: For rifles, this means at 100 yards it will put every shot into a 14" circle if there isn't any wind and you're using a machine rest. For handguns, three out of six rounds will impact a silhouette target at seven yards. In shotguns, it means that the full choke tube throws 60% patterns with holes no bigger than 8" in them.

ON CONSIGNMENT: The vendor at the show does not own the gun. It belongs to a friend, customer, or business associate, and he has been instructed to sell it, for which he will be paid a commission. He has no authority to discuss price. The price marked is 150% above BOOK VALUE. All used guns offered for sale at gun shows, without exception, are ON CONSIGNMENT, and the dealer is required by his Code of Ethics to tell you this as soon as you ask the price. A BATF study has proven that since 1934 there has never been a single authenticated case of a used gun being offered for sale at a gun show that was actually owned by the dealer showing it.

I'LL LET IT GO FOR WHAT I HAVE IN IT: I'll settle for what I paid for it plus a 250% profit.

MAKE ME AN OFFER: How dumb are you?

TELL ME HOW MUCH IT'S WORTH TO YOU: I'll bet you're even dumber than you look.

PEOPLE YOU WILL MEET AT THE GUN SHOW:

RAMBO: He's looking for an Ingram MAC-10, and wants to have it custom chambered in .44 Magnum as a back-up gun. For primary carry he wants a Desert Eagle, provided he can get it custom chambered in .50 BMG. He derides the .50 Action Express as a wimp round designed for ladies' pocket pistols. He has already bought three years' worth of freeze- dried MRE's from MARK, as well as seven knives. He is dressed in camoflage BDU's and a black T-shirt with the 101st AirBorne Division insignia, though he has never been in the Army. He works as a bag boy at Kroger's.

BUBBA: He needs some money, and has reluctantly decided to sell his Daddy's .30-30, a Marlin 336 made in 1961. He indignantly refuses all cash offers below his asking price of $475. Unable to sell it, eventually he trades it plus another $175 for a new-in-box H&R Topper in .219 Zipper. He feels pretty good about the deal.

GORDON: He is walking the aisles with a Remington Model 700 ADL in .30-06 on his shoulder. He's put an Uncle Mike's cordura sling and a Tasco 3x9 variable scope on it. A small stick protrudes from the barrel, bearing the words, "LIKE NEW ONLY THREE BOXES SHELLS FIRED $800." This is his third trip to a show with this particular rifle, which he has never actually used, since he lives in a shotgun-only area for deer.

DAWN: She is here with her boyfriend, DARRYL. At the last show, DARRYL bought her a Taurus Model 66 in .357 Magnum. She fired it twice and is afraid of it, but she keeps it in a box on the top shelf of her clothes closet in case someone breaks in. She is dressed in a pair of blue jeans that came out of a spray can, a "Soldier of Fortune" T-shirt two sizes too small, and 4" high heels. DARRYL is ignoring her, but nobody else is.

DARRYL: He has been engaged to DAWN for three years. He likes shotguns for defense, and he's frustrated that he can't get a Street Sweeper, so he's bought a Mossberg 500 with the 18-1/2" barrel, a perforated handguard, and a pistol grip. He plans to use it for squirrel hunting when he isn't sleeping with it. He plans to marry DAWN as soon as he gets a job which pays him enough to take over the payments on her mobile home.

ARNOLD: He is a car salesman in Charlottesville, Virginia. He has a passion for Civil War guns, especially cap-and-ball revolvers. He has a reproduction Remington 1858, and is looking for a real one he can afford. He owns two other guns: a S&W Model 60 and a Sauer & Sohn drilling his father brought home from the war in 1945. He has no idea what caliber the rifle barrel on his drilling is, and he last fired the Model 60 five years ago.

DICK: He is a gun dealer who makes his overhead selling Jennings J- 25's, Lorcin .380's, and H&R top-break revolvers. He buys the J-25's in lots of 1000 direct from the factory at $28.75 each, and sells them for $68.00 to gun show customers. He buys the H&R's for $10 at estate auctions and asks $85 for them, letting you talk him down to $78 when he is feeling generous. His records are meticulously kept, and he insists on proper ID and a signature on the 4473. He doesn't care whether the ID and the signature are yours, however. Other than his stock, he owns no guns and he has no interest in them.

ARLENE: She is DICK's wife. She hates guns and gun shows more than anything in the world. Her husband insists that she accompany him to keep an eye on the table when he's dickering or has to go to the men's room. She refuses to come unless she can bring her SONY portable TV, even though she gets lousy reception in the Civic Center and there isn't any cable. When DICK is away from the table, she has no authority to negotiate, and demands full asking price for everything. She doesn't know the difference between a rifle and a shotgun, and she doesn't care, either.

MARK: He doesn't have an FFL. He buys a table at the show to sell nylon holsters, magazines, T-shirts, bumber stickers, fake Nazi regalia, surplus web gear, MRE's and accessories. He makes more money than anyone else in the hall.

ALAN: He's not a dealer, but he had a bunch of odds and ends to dispose of, so he bought a table. On it he displays used loading dies in 7,65 Belgian and .25-20, both in boxes from the original Herter's company. He also has a half-box of .38-55 cartrdiges, a Western-style gun belt he hasn't been able to wear since 1978, a used cleaning kit, and a nickel-plated Iver Johnson Premier revolver in .32 S&W. He's asking $125 for the gun and $40 for each of the die sets. He paid $35 for the table and figures he needs to get at least that much to cover his expenses and the value of his time.

GERALD: He's a physician specializing in diseases of the rich. He collects Brownings, and specializes in High-Power pistols, Superposed shotguns, and Model 1900's. He has 98% of the known variations of each of these, and now plans to branch out into the 1906 and 1910 pocket pistols. He owns no handguns made after the Germans left Liege in 1944. He regards Japanese-made "Brownings" as a personal insult and is a little contempuous of Inglis-made High-Powers. He does not hunt or shoot. He buys all his gun accessories from Orvis and Dunn's.

KEVIN: He is 13, and this is his first gun show. His eyes are bugged out with amazement, and he wonders what his J.C. Higgins single-shot 20-gauge is worth. His father gives him an advance on his allowance do he can buy a used Remington Nylon 66. He's hooked for life and will end up on the NRA's Board of Directors

nathan
February 26, 2003, 05:34 PM
How about this, "I bought the gun new and its been in my closet a long time. I just want to sell it for what I got in it." A very typical salesmanship eeh.
As soon as you're about to go, the seller says, " Buy it and take it home." Yeah right, you want me to buy a clunker! No way.

bad_dad_brad
February 26, 2003, 07:45 PM
When I go to gun shows around here, I mind my own business, follow the rules, and don't make eye contact (unless she is pretty and her boyfriend is looking the other way).

I have seen all kinds. It can be an interesting circus. Guys in camo with Rambo headbands, Harley guys and gals, ordinary couples, families, farmer types, pilot wannabes in their A2 flight jackets, veterans looking over the old military stuff, more good looking women than you would imagine (always with male escorts), teenage boys oogling the guns, and just regular guys like me with an interest in knives and firearms.

With that potentially volatile mix, I have never even heard a cross word, let alone seen a fight. Gun shows are fun! Some interesting people with interesting stories. I have never bought a gun at a gun show, but plenty of knives, accessories, books, ammo, and junk.

sm
February 26, 2003, 08:06 PM
A different world is a given...but where else you gonna get a big bag of Jerkey at that kind of price?

Hadn't been in a while, word is the ice cream is better...and they had some great summer sausage at the last show. I go for the food , entertainment, and to make sure my gunsmith takes his BP meds...he only there to find some old part for something he has been requested to restore.

Standing Wolf
February 26, 2003, 08:35 PM
I've never seen so much politeness in action as at gun shows—and it's genuine politeness, too.

Bruce H
February 26, 2003, 10:21 PM
Chilicothe Mo. had is't first gun show last weekend. Friday saturday and sunday affair. Went two days. Very little in the way of milsurp rifles. Covered the spectrum in every other reguard. had some really nice high end rifles. Looked at a Wesley Richards 450/400 double for 24K. Nice equipment and good people. They are going to have another next year.

12.7x99mm
February 27, 2003, 02:19 AM
My show I go to has some winners. Oh man.

But the majority of the folks are just fine.

rick458
February 27, 2003, 04:37 AM
Pasadena has some scary dudes come to its gun shows
but then again Pasadena has some scart dudes period:eek:

Big_R
February 27, 2003, 05:02 AM
A few weeks back, I went to a show in Souix Falls SD. There were some interesting people, but there were also a lot of unusual firearms. I saw a guy walking around with a Krinkov and another guy trying to sell a volley rifle (12 bores in the barrel or something like that). I also saw two Johnson rifles (competed with the Garand during that time), and more milsurp than I could shake a stick at. I am still kicking myself, because I could have purchased two Weaver K6's with dual horizontal crosshairs for $80.00 each. I could have used both of them.

Ryan

WonderNine
February 27, 2003, 05:19 AM
(like the idiot at the last show that wanted $125 for a 15 round CZ-75 magazine.)

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!

Matt1911
February 27, 2003, 08:06 AM
'round here many of the "shops" buy a table at the gun shows.I love the shows,always thought the dudes in costum were just part of the show!
For the last couple of years,the anti's have been makin' a BIG stink about gun shows,but in the last year,the number of shows have doubled,and not one complaint from the anti's.Anyone else notice this?

Bahadur
February 27, 2003, 12:45 PM
Daniel Flory:
I don't find the anachronisms strange (even if they get historical details incorrect)...but rather the people that are so fat they are barely mobile. Heart disease will get these people before the UN ever will...yet they worry and rant about the UN.So true, so true...

Sisco:

That was one of the funniest things I've read in a long while. Thank you for the laughs.

Mike Irwin
February 27, 2003, 12:59 PM
I've seen historical re-enactors at a number of gunshows I've been at -- American, British, and German, including American Civil and Revolutionary War.

I think it adds a neat flavor to the show.

As for the Colt 1911, Colt supplied a few thousand 1911s chambered in .455 Webley Automatic to the British during WW I.

redneck2
February 27, 2003, 01:43 PM
how is it that you live in Kansas, I live in Indiana, but the same people come to both our shows???:)

this is kinda funny, 'cause I was at one of the local shops today talking to the owners, who also happen to be friends

they were commenting about the buyers...pretty much the same way the buyers here comment about the dealers

I know one thing...I'd hate to put up with me at a gun show

.45Ruger
February 27, 2003, 04:36 PM
For the people wo asked where I got that SAR it was from J&G sales. www.jgsales.com

aerod1
February 27, 2003, 07:53 PM
I go to the shows in Dallas, Houston and Tulsa. I don't dress up like that but don't mind it if someone else does. Sometimes I think it is pretty interesting.
Jim Hall

Bahadur
February 27, 2003, 08:54 PM
One thing that is very distasteful about many gun shows is the persistent presence of Nazi regalia salesmen. It doesn't exactly portray gun buyers or sellers as sophisticated, tolerant people when every freakin' gun show features a few of these.

Bad PR guilt-by-association.

Bainx
February 27, 2003, 08:55 PM
I suppose you would not understand some people in a band playing as if they were from London in 1966 wearing the costumes of the day and playing the current hit tunes?

How bout the play "Phantom of the Opera", would you possibly fall for that?

submin
February 28, 2003, 09:36 AM
It doesn't exactly portray gun buyers or sellers as sophisticated, tolerant people...


Mr. Bahadur, perhaps we would appear more sophisticated and tolerant if we hung their bodies from the rafters. Before you accuse somebody of being intolerant. look the term up in a dictionary before you open your intolerant mouth. When you don't, you are showing your level of sophistication and to be honest with you, I trust people at gun shows long before I trust a self-righteous divisionist.:barf:

Bottom Gun
February 28, 2003, 10:03 AM
Sisco,

I loved that !!!!

Thanks for a good laugh. :D :D :D

Bahadur
February 28, 2003, 01:22 PM
Buckshot:
Before you accuse somebody of being intolerant. look the term up in a dictionary before you open your intolerant mouth.Having a reading comprehension problem, are we? Let's try this again. I accused not. What I wrote:
It doesn't exactly portray gun buyers or sellers as sophisticated, tolerant people...

Bad PR guilt-by-association.The key operative words there are "portray" and "PR." I frankly do not care if people want to sell Nazi regalia, hot dogs, high-priced guns or Mein Kampf at any venue so long as the merchandise is legal. I buy what I choose to buy and do not pay attention to the rest. However, it does give a bad impression of these events when they persistently show Nazi regalia. Let's put it this way: we often tell others that a gun is (or should be) like any other merchandise (say, like cars, boats or power tools). Yet, when you walk into a car show after car show, do you persistently see a Nazi regalia seller or two?
When you don't, you are showing your level of sophistication and to be honest with you, I trust people at gun shows long before I trust a self-righteous divisionist.I don't "trust" people at gunshows at all, self-righteous divisionist or not. It has nothing to do with gunshows, and everything to do with Caveat Emptor.

submin
February 28, 2003, 04:29 PM
Bahadur"the persistent presence of nazi regalia salesman. ....every freakin' gun show features a few of these. Ddddiiiidddd yyyou SSSStuUUUTTTerrrr? Somebody has trouble getting along with other kids on the playground. These salesmen have payed for their slot and are selling legal merchandise. If you see otherwise, turn them in. I'll help you. Other than fat people, you seem to have a problem with the nazi component. I too have a problem with nazi's. But i refuse to become a nazi to defeat a nazi. Yes I have owned one Walther with nazi markings and I did buy it from a man on the show circuit. Didn"t like the looks of the gun but once I shot it I had to have it. I have since owned two more Walthers (without the markings) and a HK 91. Am I an "undesirable" because of my choise of weapons? During WWII, weapons technology advanced exponentialy. The German weapons led the way. Bad timing and bad causes led to their defeat. But the tech is still there. My problem is that you air dirty laundry in public. If you don't like something about others, stay away. The antis have enough help. Oh, no I don"t see regalia at auto shows, but have you checked out the new BMW's? WOW. Gotta have one.:uhoh:

Bahadur
February 28, 2003, 08:30 PM
Buckshot:
Ddddiiiidddd yyyou SSSStuUUUTTTerrrr? Somebody has trouble getting along with other kids on the playground.Read the first sentence there and speak for yourself.
Am I an "undesirable" because of my choise of weapons?Such an accusation was neither implied nor stated specifically. I don't have a problem with people buying German guns.
During WWII, weapons technology advanced exponentialy. The German weapons led the way. Bad timing and bad causes led to their defeat. But the tech is still there.While I am, by training, an expert in German military operations during the '30s and '40s and would love to argue with your simplistic statements, let us stick to the point, not history lessons.
My problem is that you air dirty laundry in public. If you don't like something about others, stay away.Using the same logic, shouldn't you stay away from my post?
The antis have enough help.Not from me. Some in the "gun movement" do it just fine without my help to discredit themselves. Sometimes we are our own worst enemy.
Oh, no I don"t see regalia at auto shows, but have you checked out the new BMW's? WOW. Gotta have one.A "new BMW" made in Germany today has absolutely NO Nazi connotation. Your analogy is thus invalid. When a gunshow after gunshow has Nazi/SS regalia sellers (and buyers), it DOES paint the shows - and gun buyers - in a negative light to many people, because an association forms in the minds of people, i.e. gunshows = Nazi stuff.

Think about it. If every auto show you attended featured a Nazi regalia seller or two, wouldn't you begin to feel a bit odd about the auto shows and at least wonder what connection there might be between car people and Nazi regalia?

MountainPeak
February 28, 2003, 08:45 PM
I go to 6-10 a year. I love gun shows. I hope more of you stop going! It gives me a better chance at the GOOD buys. Yes, I did say good buys. Going to a show every couple years or so, and not finding something you like, doesn't mean good deals aren't available. On second thought, you people are right, why bother?

EJ
February 28, 2003, 08:51 PM
I'm glad we're all so tolerant of those that share our interests--

Don't want any fat guys representing us--:rolleyes:

submin
February 28, 2003, 09:00 PM
"While I am, by training...."


Weak . Very weak post.:neener:

Bahadur
March 1, 2003, 04:05 PM
EJ:
I'm glad we're all so tolerant of those that share our interests--

Don't want any fat guys representing us--Are you equating Nazi stuff with being overweight?

I'm personally tolerant of a lot of things, but that does not mean I don't point out things that hurt our collective cause.

Furthermore, just because someone believes in the Second Amendment ("share our interests") does NOT mean that I should embrace him blindly. He could be, for example, a believer in both the Second Amendment and Neo-Nazism.

We have to pick our "friends" in the movement, not just about anyone who claims to be a friend of the 2nd Amendment.

Buckshot:

If you want to discuss the difference between Auftragstaktik vs. Befehlstaktik, feel free to drop me a PM.

Soap
March 1, 2003, 04:57 PM
Bahadur- I think he's referring to my post about the morbidly obese who are paranoid of the U.N.

I would completely agree with you BTW in your sentiments about choosing friends wisely.

EJ
March 1, 2003, 11:47 PM
Are you equating Nazi stuff with being overweight?


NO-- I'm objecting to that rationalization-- that's what :rolleyes: SARCASM means---:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

444
March 1, 2003, 11:58 PM
I went to a gunshow today. I get more of a kick out of the stuff for sale, but I agree, there are some unusual characters there. Ironically, I almost went to the gunshow in a complete Swiss military uniform. I shoot in Vintage Military Bolt Action Rifle matches. I bought a couple K31 Schmit-Ruben rifles and realized this was the ticket for these matches (for me). I was looking around the internet one day and came across an ad for a uniform. I thought the guys at the match would get a kick out of me showing up to shoot my Swiss rifle in uniform so I paid I think $35 for it. It arrived with everything; I mean boots, sox, underwear, helmet........................... I didn't wear it last month and the match director came up with a new rule; if you are in a uniform, you get two extra points on your score. I would have won last week with two extra points so this morning, I put the whole thing on including chaps or gaiters or whatever they are called. After the match I was going to the gunshow. I thought better of it and took some extra clothes with me, although I would have had to change outside. Pulled out of the driveway and realized the match was next weekend. :banghead:
But, I went to the gunshow anyway. Checked out the shotshells loaded with carpet tacks, jerky, cures for neck and back pain, miricle solutions for cleaning glasses.........................................
Made a deal for a new safe that will pretty much take up a whole wall in the spare bedroom. This safe is three times bigger than the one I have now, maybe bigger. It was 16" wider than the biggest safe he had on display and the biggest one he had on display was rated to hold 54 long guns.

444
March 2, 2003, 01:23 AM
Oh, I forgot the best thing. In one of the display cases in beween the Nazi daggers and stuff there was some kind of title belt from big time wrestling. One of those ones that goes around your waist and comes about half way up your torso.

Braz
March 2, 2003, 02:18 AM
Gun shows used to be wonderful 15 years ago,

Then the grabbers got what they wanted, no more personal sales. With paperwork, fees and regulations, the sales and trades from private owners dried up. Used guns are now rare and usually valuable collectors items, rather than reasonable shooters. It's much easier to consign the gun, and dealers have little competition anymore. There's still a few pockets of freedom, but for Kali and most of the land, the days of hagglling with owners to find that rare deal are over.

I don't buy Nazi gear, but I admire the workmanship in German WWII weapons and gear. The guy selling it has the right to be there. I'd ask us to stick together and fight for our gun rights, but it's obvious we're too polarized for that. Heck, I like folks who are enthusiastic about their hobbys. Cowboy shooters come to mind.

Tamara
March 2, 2003, 08:13 AM
There's still a few pockets of freedom, but for Kali and most of the land, the days of hagglling with owners to find that rare deal are over.

Don't believe their brainwashing! "Kali and most of the land"? Actually, Kali is one of the only states that won't let you sell your personal property without going through a dealer.

When I go to gun shows (and I'm sure it's the same most places) there's that cloud of vultures circling the front door "Whatcha got in the case? How much ya want for it? Trade for a Beretta?".

Braz
March 2, 2003, 11:13 AM
I hope your right Tam,

But buds in Texas say the same thing. So how does a personal trade or sale work in Tenn? Who files the paperwork? Who holds the gun during the check out period? I thought all states required an FFL transfer the guns and make the check. And of course they charge a fee, then you have to go to the store to pick it up. Glad to hear there's some good deals left in them there hills. ;)

I used to like gun shows a lot. Maybe after I move the enjoyment will return? :D

http://www.proshooter.org/cgi-bin/album/album.pl?photo=montage.jpg

twoblink
March 2, 2003, 12:48 PM
When I went to the gunshow with Oleg and Runt; the fact that I was "from the PRK" spread like wildfire...

I had people walk up to me, pat me on the back, and tell me how sorry they were. I had no less then 4 people tell me to move to TN...

Gunshows are strangle, filled with strange people...

Tamara
March 2, 2003, 01:12 PM
But buds in Texas say the same thing. So how does a personal trade or sale work in Tenn? Who files the paperwork? Who holds the gun during the check out period? I thought all states required an FFL transfer the guns and make the check.

1) Double-check with your buds in TX. I am 99.99% sure that private transactions are unregulated there.

2) I hand him my gun, he hands me money. Same thing in Georgia.

3) There is no paperwork.

4) There is no checkout period.

5) Nope.

Move back to America, friend; deny the socialists your tax dollars. :cool:

Greybeard
March 2, 2003, 01:32 PM
Among residents, What Tam said above true here - for now. But ... a "bill of sale" often not a bad idea as CYA for one or both parties ...

454c
March 2, 2003, 10:18 PM
I used to go to gun shows,but the table with the best prices was the dealer I allready bought from.I've been told that Tulsa was worth the drive,but I haven't talked myself into going yet.

55645
March 2, 2003, 10:46 PM
I've never bought a gun at a show but I saw one that I bought later. I like to look around and be among like-minded people for a change. It's an enjoyable way to spend an hour or two, I think.

EJ
March 2, 2003, 11:21 PM
Tulsa is well worth the drive--
Especialy if you are looking for the unusual or rare--:D

Minute_Of_Torso
March 3, 2003, 12:33 AM
Our local monthly gunshow is usually 99% "Normals" and 1% "Other".

The guys that bother me are the ones that have the nice booth set up and are selling Mein Kampf, Nazi battle flags, and always have a smattering of Anglo-Israeli literature. I don't know if they really believe in that stuff or are neo-Nazis, but I usually stay away in case I'm associated with them by anyone.

The re-enactors don't bother me at all, in fact I usually try to corner them and pump them for period information.

Waitone
March 3, 2003, 08:19 AM
You wanna see some odd characters? Attend the Scottish Highland Games of your choice.

Dorrin79
March 3, 2003, 08:50 AM
for the record, private party transactions between residents are completely unregulated in Texas.

No paperwork needed (although I show them my TX driver's license just to let them feel diligent.)

JohnBT
March 3, 2003, 10:48 AM
I spent 4 hours at the gun show Saturday. I saw one guy in camo and it looked to be brand new - it still had the creases from the package. Otherwise, it was a generally clean and casual bunch. Probably has to do with deer and duck seasons being over - no plaid outfits and people wearing clothes dipped in deer scent or smeared with mud.

John

444
March 3, 2003, 12:02 PM
I feel the need to make a couple comments about the nazi stuff at the gunshows and some of the posts here.
#1: It appears to me that some people believe that if we only would act a certain way, or dress a certain way, or repeat the right things, the antis would announce that they have been wrong all along, that we are a bunch of nice guys who should be allowed to own guns. My opinion of the matter is that there is nothing we can do, no compromise we can make that will ever make them go away. I am not interested in their opinion influencing what I do.
#2 What is it with the Nazis ? To our society they are the personification of evil. They are the bad guys. Notice that no one ever says, hey !! that guy has nambu pistols, and arisaka rifles and rising sun flags; those are the people who are responsible for the Battan Death March, those are the people who bayonetted thousands of innocent civilians in Shanghi, those are the people who hated us so bad that they were willing to fly manned planes into our ships. You don't hear that, you only hear about the Nazis. You will never hear anyone say, look at all this Russian communist stuff. Stalin was a monster, he killed tens of thousands of his own people............................... You won't hear that, only about the Nazis. Why ?
#3. Items of history have always interested me. In fact, most things interest me. Going to a gun show is very similar to going to a museum if you think about it. If you wanted to educate someone about the history of firearms, you could take them to a gunshow and they could see examples of firearms from the last 200 years, along with the associted equipment, uniforms, insignia, and other non-firearm weapons. Then there are refernce material about all this stuff (books). Let me ask you this, if you were at the Smithsonian and there was a display of German WWII uniforms and insignia, would you be ashamed to look at it ? If they had a display of WWII German guns would you be afraid to look at it for fear someone might see you looking and associate you with it ? Are you secure enough with yourself to watch The History Channel and see footage of WWII in the Europeon theatre without being afraid that you will be branded a Nazi ? Are you this afraid to hear ANYTHING the thought police say you shouldn't ?

Bahadur
March 3, 2003, 03:00 PM
444:
#1: It appears to me that some people believe that if we only would act a certain way, or dress a certain way, or repeat the right things, the antis would announce that they have been wrong all along...For me, the PR efforts aren't geared toward convincing the "antis," which is enormously difficult (without certain personal experiences), and thus not "price-efficient." The PR efforts, rather, are geared toward convincing those sitting on the fences in the middle.

Preaching to the choir is emotionally satisfactory, but does little to EXPAND our cause.
#2 What is it with the Nazis ? To our society they are the personification of evil. They are the bad guys. Notice that no one ever says, hey !! that guy has nambu pistols, and arisaka rifles and rising sun flags; those are the people who are responsible for the Battan Death March...I don't have a problem with people who buy WWII artefacts, whether they are Japanese, German, Italian or American. A lot of people like to own pieces of history (and I am included in that).

When I generalized "Nazi regalia," I meant not only the ususal Nazi/SS outfits, gear and etc., but also Mein Kampf, neo-Nazi books and pamphlets, anti-Jewish conspiracy theory books and so forth. If I were to see a booth or two every gunshow that sells books extolling the virtues of Japanese imperialism and why the "yellow people" (specifically the Japanese) are scientifically superior to other "inferior" races and why the rest of humanity is conspiring to keep the "Yellows" down, I'd object to it too.

In fact, that is my VERY point. Why is it that one rarely, if ever, sees booths dedicated to selling Russian (communist or not), Japanese (WWII or not) or even Italian (Fascist or not) paraphernalia (not to mention one dedicated to "Gears of the WWII G.I.), but one sees, persistently, show after show, booths that specifically dedicate themselves to trading Nazi/Neo-Nazi stuff at gunshows? Anyway you cut it, that looks "bad" and paints a very bad association to those who don't just sigh it off as readily as I do.

Let's put it another way. If, at gunshows, there is always a table or two selling Klan gear (white robes, "White Power" symbols, masks, hoods, hanging rope, burnt-out crosses and literature) - and I mean every darned gunshow - would you begin to wonder if there is any connection or would you just think "hey, they're just selling historical stuff LIKE EVERYONE ELSE"?
Let me ask you this, if you were at the Smithsonian and there was a display of German WWII uniforms and insignia, would you be ashamed to look at it ?Not at all. However, if EVERY SINGLE MUSEUM (history museums, art museums, etc.) I visit have the dedicated "Nazi Germany/SS" corner with absolutely no provision of politico-historical context of Nazism, I'd begin to feel a bit odd about who is exactly running the museums too and wonder if there is a connection between the museums and the glorification of Nazism.

444
March 3, 2003, 06:28 PM
I have never understood the whole idea of selling military collectables at guns shows, or for that matter knives at gun shows let alone jerky, and glasses cleaners or whatever. I guess they sell it because people buy it. Maybe people who are into guns are also into collecting other stuff. Or maybe people that don't have a problem spending money on their hobby are willing to spend money on other junk also. It is kind of funny how some of this stuff goes together. It seems that a lot of guys that are into guns are also into good watches ???

I have seen this military stuff for sale at shows for the last 30 years. And I always found it interesting no matter the nationality. I never assumed that these guys were pro nazi or anything because they sold this stuff or collected this stuff. I also never had a problem with reading Mein Kamf either. I read it myself when I was in high school. I have only really seen one table at gunshows that actually sold this nazi/skinhead/ whatever you call them stuff. It is the same people, at every show with the one table. I don't know what that is all about. I don't know if people buy it or not. I didn't see them at the show this past weekend. I actually talked to some of the guys with tables at the shows, who I knew outside the gunshow and asked them what was up with these guys. All of them told me that they have been trying to get rid of these guys, but they can't discriminate against them ??? I don't know.

Bahadur
March 3, 2003, 08:13 PM
All of them told me that they have been trying to get rid of these guys, but they can't discriminate against them ???"They" apparently didn't try very hard. "They" can't discriminate against sellers for their different religions, "races," national origins, etc., but can certainly choose to exclude sellers of products they do not approve or find "offensive," particularly when the gunshows are held at private facilities.

444
March 3, 2003, 09:21 PM
Maybe that is the problem, none of them here locally are held at a private property. All are at a city owned building.

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