what is second strike capability??


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madhatta
February 26, 2003, 01:09 PM
I saw an ad for the FN pistols. The ad said something about 'second strike' capabilities. I thought I was familiar with most firearm terms- but have never heard of this. What is this?

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10-Ring
February 26, 2003, 01:20 PM
Basically, if you pull he trigger, hear a "click," you can pull the trigger again w/o having to cycle another round.

Blackhawk
February 26, 2003, 03:03 PM
To expand a little on what 10-Ring said:

All you have to do is pull the trigger again if the primer doesn't ignite. Some pistols require some manipulation of the action to get the trigger block to reset.

Second strike capability is typical of DAO pistols, and it's usually a good way to determine if the action is really DAO.

Ebbtide
February 26, 2003, 03:14 PM
Would the kel-tec p-11 fit into the "second strike" definition, or would it only be revolvers (a "second strike" on a different primer)?

Just wondering.

ehenz

yzguy
February 26, 2003, 03:24 PM
The P-11 has Second Strike capabilities, but the P-32 (and I'm pretty sure the new P-3AT) does not.

to check insert a snap cap, pull the trigger. Then if you can pull the trigger again and the hammer falls again, it has Second Strike Capability.

All Pistols that are labeled as DAO's don't necessarily have it like P-32's, and Glocks (I know the Glock is called a "safe action"...)

Frohickey
February 26, 2003, 03:44 PM
Is second strike capability even worth it?

If I have a click and no bang, I'm going to immediately slap the magazine in, rack the slide and try to fire again.

Because your second strike trigger pull could be on an empty chamber.

Delmar
February 26, 2003, 03:48 PM
All of hollywood's pistols have a second strike capability, even when the slide is locked back you can hear the hammer dropping multiple times-even on single actions such as a 1911:cuss:

Blackhawk
February 26, 2003, 04:19 PM
Would the kel-tec p-11 fit into the "second strike" definition, or would it only be revolvers (a "second strike" on a different primer)?Yes, the P-11 is a true DAO with second strike capability. However, the P-32 is not a true DAO, and it doesn't have second strike capability.

The term doesn't apply to revolvers.

Blackhawk
February 26, 2003, 04:26 PM
Is second strike capability even worth it?

If I have a click and no bang, I'm going to immediately slap the magazine in, rack the slide and try to fire again.Comes with DAOs and my preferred CCWs are DAO pistols.

I haven't had one, but hard primers do exist, and I think SSC is a feature.

The second trigger pull takes about 2/10 of a second, and I can't do the slap/rack/pull drill in anything like that.

Besides, in an SD situation I'm going to be automatically pulling the trigger again anyway, bang or not.... :D

yzguy
February 26, 2003, 04:30 PM
Besides, in an SD situation I'm going to be automatically pulling the trigger again anyway, bang or not....

that's what I was about to say....

that in a high stress situation, you may not even notice it did not go bang, especially if the other guy is shooting back at you...

But I am not overly concerned with a carry gun having to have it, but it is kinda nice.

Handy
February 26, 2003, 07:41 PM
Second strike:

To happen with a trigger stroke alone, the trigger must be a full DA of some type. Beretta, Ruger or Sig DA/SA or DAO fall into this category.

I woudn't say a revolver doesn't have second strike. You are always able to go around for another try.

I would also argue that any SA pistol with an exposed hammer has a kind of second strike ability since you can hit the round again with the manipulations of one hand - this isn't a stupid idea, either. The 1911 and most other SA autos were designed to be carried hammer down. Along the same lines, a P7 has second strike, too. You release then recock the lever.

A gun that requires slide manipulation to reset truly lacks second strike. While you can recock it by short stroking the slide, this is a bad idea. Under stress, pulling back a little to far will result in a jam. With a Glock or XD it's better to just eject the bad round.

Blackhawk
February 26, 2003, 08:44 PM
Sorry, Handy.

You don't get to redefine things here either. Delete these two paragraphs, and your post would be right on:I woudn't say a revolver doesn't have second strike. You are always able to go around for another try.

I would also argue that any SA pistol with an exposed hammer has a kind of second strike ability since you can hit the round again with the manipulations of one hand - this isn't a stupid idea, either. The 1911 and most other SA autos were designed to be carried hammer down. Along the same lines, a P7 has second strike, too. You release then recock the lever.
:D

Handy
February 26, 2003, 09:56 PM
Yeah, well I didn't get "Blackhawk's Big Book of Standard Firearms Definitions, Unabridged, 2002 Ed." yet. So maybe you could help with the following quandries:

If you have a gun designed to be carried hammer down with a SA trigger (Radom, Mab, Firestar), does this pistol even have FIRST strike capability?


Second question, about revolvers: A single shot DAO derringer has second strike and it sounds like, "click, BANG" if you get a hard primer. A two shot derringer with one hard primer sounds like "click, BANG, BANG". If a DA revolver doesn't have second strike, presumably the DA two shot doesn't either, right? Or does it?

Blackhawk
February 27, 2003, 12:59 AM
You're not on the distribution list.

Yes.

No.

Handy
February 27, 2003, 11:46 AM
So if cocking the hammer and firing is a "first strike", why wouldn't recocking the hammer and firing be a "second strike"?

You'll have to forgive me, I'm not very smart.

M1911
February 27, 2003, 11:57 AM
Personally, I think second strike capability is a defect, not a feature. If the gun does not fire, I believe the correct response is tap-rack-bang, not pulling the trigger again. If you don't have second strike, then the trigger does not reset and that's another indication to you that there is a problem that you need to solve right there and now with tap-rack-bang.

Handy
February 27, 2003, 12:06 PM
One thing second strike does give you is a second chance and an extra round, but it also gives you a pause to allow a hang fire to cook off. If it is a hang fire, opening the slide immediately may become unpleasant.

Blackhawk
February 27, 2003, 02:11 PM
So if cocking the hammer and firing is a "first strike", why wouldn't recocking the hammer and firing be a "second strike"?
Executing the final step before ignition is pulling the trigger. A second strike occurs when the only step taken is pulling the trigger to repeat the mechanical process to foster ignition. Cocking the hammer is a discrete preliminary step that is not a part of the ignition sequence started by pulling the trigger.

If pulling the trigger does not also completely cock the firing mechanism, the gun does not have second (more properly "repeated") strike capability.

Handy
February 27, 2003, 02:17 PM
So then "second strike" would then be defined as:

The ability of a firearm to restrike a primer with one (and only one) additional pull of the trigger.

That is why a revolver doesn't cut it as well, too many trigger pulls.


I would also assume that a P7 has no second strike capability either, since this also involves recocking the gun by means other than the trigger?

Blackhawk
February 27, 2003, 02:26 PM
Right.

Nyghtfall
February 27, 2003, 02:40 PM
Walther P99, Taurus PT-series both have second-strike ability, as do most SA/DA autos like the Beretta 92.

M1911
February 27, 2003, 03:00 PM
One thing second strike does give you is a second chance and an extra round, but it also gives you a pause to allow a hang fire to cook off. If it is a hang fire, opening the slide immediately may become unpleasant.On the range, I can wait all the time I want to, regardless of whether or not the gun has second strike capability. In a defensive situation, I'm going to do a tap-rap-bang, regardless of whether or not I think I have a hangfire. In a defensive situation, you don't have the luxury of waiting 30-60 seconds to determine whether or not you have a hangfire, and you're certainly not going to spend that 30-60 seconds pulling the trigger repeatedly if you do have second strike.

That said, in 10 years of shooting I have yet to see a hangfire. It's not something I'm particularly worried about. And if the round does go off outside of the gun, the bullet actually won't be propelled that fast. The cartridge will be propelled in the other direction (faster than the bullet, actually). Most likely if that bullet hit you, it would not break the skin.

I think the hangfire issue is completely orthognal to second strike.

Blackhawk
February 27, 2003, 03:33 PM
Taurus PT-series both have second-strike abilityAre you saying that the Taurus striker mechanism is 100% cocked by the trigger?

Blackhawk
February 27, 2003, 03:38 PM
That said, it 10 years of shooting I have yet to see a hangfire. 50+ years here (included in those is a war), and I've never seen, had, or heard of one among my associates or friends. Hangfires are not even on my radar screen....

gk1
February 27, 2003, 04:01 PM
IMO, hangfires are leftovers from black powder days. I suppose that BPCR shooters may have more likelihood of hangfires occurring, but the only time I've ever experienced anything similar is with fireworks.

Also IMO, the correct response to have ingrained in one who uses a weapon for defensive purposes is the Tap, Rack, Bang or equivalent.

George

Stevie-Ray
February 27, 2003, 09:03 PM
Are you saying that the Taurus striker mechanism is 100% cocked by the trigger? I don't know about all Taurus PT series, but in the case of my PT-22, Yes. True second-strike capability.

Handy
February 27, 2003, 09:04 PM
You know, I feel much better about some guns lacking second strike. Now that I know how few qualify, it doesn't seem like a big deal.

I need to come up with a term for a weapon that can refire a cartridge with only one hand's manipulation. Then we can have three terms.

Single hand modified second strike?

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