[TCW]

Hi!

I've decided to get a rifle to keep my mini-14 company. I don't do any hunting, but wanted a rifle that could be a little more long-range than my mini-14 w/ red dot scope. Also wasnted to keep it around $400. I already have: Rem 870, mini 14, Sig 226 .40, Ruger GP100 .357.

The reason I'm considering the 7600, lever and SKS is because I'd like the gun to be fast and useful in a SHTF situation that we all seem to have in the back of minds ;) .

Between the three choices what would you choose and why?

SKS: Of course the SKS is the cheapest and the fastest, but it's difficult to mount a scope well and the accuracy would be a little less than the others.

Remington 7600/760 in .308: Good accuracy, but only 4 round mags. Can mount a scope. Love my 870 which is same platform.

30/30 or .357 lever: Not a HUGE fan of levers, but could get used to it. Accuracy maybe not as good as 7600? Can mount a scope.

Between the three choices what would you choose and why? Other ideas? Oh, also
I live in Kali.

Thanks for the suggestions!

[foghornl]

My humble 1/50th of $1:

If you are talking 250+ yards, then the .308 is the only choice of the calibers you list. The 4-round mag is limiting, though.

Longest shot I have ever taken with my [scoped] Marlin .30-30 was 176 measured yards. "One-shot stop" on Bambi. 6+1 capacity

SKS is like the AK-xx's in 7.62x39...decent rifle, simple design that goes Bang! every time, but sights and cartridge limit it to about 200 yards.

[Kaylee]

Personally, since you have a nice shorter-range "social" semi-auto, I'd figure that base was covered and get something with *significantly* more range and accuracy.. say a .308 boltgun.

The SKS would fill the same niche as the Mini, as given your needs the levergun would, it sounds like. (Although the levergun does have the PC advantage). The 7600, well.. seems to me if you're going to get a manually operated .308, you might as well go all the way and get a long-range setup.. say a Savage "tactical" package or the like?

[NMshooter]

Definitely go for a bolt gun. For 400$ in California you do not have many choices. If weight and length are a concern, a lightweight 18"-20" barrel with a synthetic stock will make that bolt gun easier to handle.

You can carry something else for the close in stuff.

Hope that helps.:)

[steelhead]

Sounds like you want really want the Remington - so that is the one you should get. Plus it is really about the only one of your choices that has the longer/accurate range potential. A bolt action seems out since you want something more familar and/or faster like a semi or slide action.

Lever actions are great and kinda bring back the John Wayne is us all but not necessarily the best choice for long range zombie plinking.

As for an SKS, you might want to take a look at this post by Gewehr98. (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=107782) Sounds like he is getting real good accuracy and has added a scope mount that you might be able to replicate fairly easily. If this doesn't make you want an SKS - nothing ever will.

[Bigfoot]

If I had to choose between these guns I'd take the Remington. It's not known for long range accuracy or reliability but it makes a real nice woods gun for fast followup shots at average ranges for hogs, deer, and elk. In many states there is year round hog hunting. Find someone who hunts and check it out.

Although higher capacity magazines are available for it, the idea of a long range defensive rifle sounds like legal trouble. If you're at long range then your life isn't in danger, or so the jury would say, and you already have two great defensive guns anyway. The Mini covers the plinker role too.

[rbernie]

I've had the Remington, and hated it. It wouldn't feed anything that didn't have an absolutely perfect tip (XBullets and most softpoints would catch on the bottom rim of the chamber and jam). It has no bolt hold-open facility other than the magazine (which means that if you drop the mag to clear the above jam, the bolt slams on your fingers). The bolt is also very hard to remove, rendering the breech end virtually uncleanable without using lots of spray solvents.

The SKS is easier to clean and use, but doesn't fire a round that is much more useful for non-social-work than your Mini14. I have three SKS's and love them, but I suspect that yiou'd be better served with something a little more high-powered.

The lever-action is intruiging, and I think that a 357Mag levergun would quickly become one of your favorite shooters (especially since you can exchange rounds between your GP100 and the lever rifle).

I vote for either a 357Mag levergun or a Savage bolt gun in 308.

[rbernie]

The point of the 357 Magnum leveraction was to have a combination rifle/pistol set - that has value in some circles. That's why I provided two answers - one for caliber (308 bolt gun) and one for interchangability (357 lever gun).

Find me an accurate 308 available in California for less than $400 (the original criteria) , and I'll retract the Savage recommendation. Dude.

[mhdishere]

Since you're considering an SKS I assume you don't mind milsurp, how about one of the Mosin Nagants, especially a Finn? Good Finnish M-39 Mosins are in the under $200 range, while the Russian 91/30, M-38 or M-44 are under a hundred. Plenty of power in the 7.62x54r (comparable to the .308), I'm told the Finns have good sights and trigger. Spend the extra money on a couple thousand rounds of milsurp ammo. There are also scout-type scope mounts for them that don't bubba the original rifle. Five rounds in the mag, stripper-clip loading.

In case you didn't guess I've been bitten by the Mosin bug, gonna get my first (and possibly second and third!) this December at a show in PA.

[Titus]

If I had to choose between these guns I'd take the Remington. It's not known for long range accuracy

Are they not? I haven't seen too many of them shoot, but the ones I have were all pretty accurate. At least a bit under MOA, some more.

[MrMurphy]

How about a Savage 99 in .308? They're still around if you look, and it's a five shot .308, scopeable, as well as a lever (handy and short).

The Browning BLR lever gun in .308 would also be handy, accurate, and potent in caliber (.30-06 or .308), and can be scoped. Not cheap, but it's a Browning.


A Marlin .30-30 with a 2X scope would also do well.

[JohnMc]

but only 4 round mags. What about the Eagle 10 round mags, anybody got any data? (They're probably advertised as for the 7400, but the 7600 pump and 7400 semi take the same mags, or so I've read).

[rbernie]

anybody got any data Yup. I've got two - biggest POS known to man.

The first two that I ordered were too big to fit. I returned them and got two more. They had the same problem. I sold those and some time later bought two more. They had the same problem. I lightly filed and worked on the OD of the last set until they would (with some effort) fit into the 7400 mag well. But then they wouldn't feed worth a hoot.

[zastros]

I would argue for a mil-surp boltgun also, though my tastes run to either:

Scmidt-Rubin k-31 ~$100, exceptional accuracy, 6rd.(?) magazine, straight pull action is lightning fast, ammo pretty expensive but cheaper good ammo is becoming more available. 7.5 is certainly analgous to .308
kind of a drag to mount a scope though I've seen them.

Enfield #4 ~$150, accurate, 10 rd. magazine, action is smooth and quick, .303 is similar to .308 and relatively easy to come by, not hard to mount a scope

[BusMaster007]

You've made thoughtful choices already and are asking good questions.
You seem to like to do the homework, get opinions, and then make the choice based on that information.
Sounds a lot like someone I know...:)

I think the .308 is the best choice for your next firearm.
The 7600 is a good rifle when used with stock magazines and works like the 870 for the most part. Check out the Remington site in the LE section re the 7600P.

Honestly, I have to agree with the bolt-action choice, and I like the Remington 700's.
To get the most bang for your buck, check out the 700 ADL Synthetic in .308. It has a 'blind magazine' vs. the floorplate of the BDL.
It may be the 'Youth' model with the shorter stock, but that's not a bad thing if you can use it, or add a longer pad if you need to. The details will be on the Remington site.
This may be a good choice for you caliber/action & $$$-wise.

edited to add:
With the synthetic stock, and a 6X scope in Weaver base/rings, you could use your imagination and some 'camo' spray paint to get a 'Tactical Sporter' rifle that would look pretty damn good!
No need for a bipod, either, as the rifle will be lighter and more portable without it. Use a backpack, tree stump or some other type of rest.
Dare to be different and be proud of what you get.

Good Luck.

[Ghost_Point]

If I was you I'd sell the mini and get a VEPR AK in 7.62 or .308 they cost about 600 bucks.
then i'd get the remington 700.

[Kaylee]

Hey.... I'm liking BusMaster007's advice. I'm liking it a lot. :)

Out of curiosity, are those all long-action rifles, or are the .308's built on a Remington short action?

[cracked butt]

15 replies and noone has mentioned it yet....

If you want a good (well ok, great) long range rifle for social work/target shooting for about the same price as a remington, take a look at an M1.

If you need a scope, as not all of us have perfect eyesight and you want long range performance, the best way to go is a remington/winchester/ruger/weatherby/sako/tikka/Cz bolt action.

[Lonestar.45]

It sounds from your post like you want something with long range accuracy and a good scope.

In that case, of the choices you mention, the 7600 is the only one that really fits the bill. I have a 30-30 lever, and an SKS, both open sights. They're great rifles, and out to 100, 150 yds they are very accurate. Beyond that, it's a crap shoot to be consistent. The SKS is not the ideal platform for a scope mounted longer range accuracy. The lever action, while okay for scope mounting, is limited by the 30-30 cartridge itself.

The 7600 in .308, with a good scope, would be your best bet.

hehe...of course, if it were ME, and I had the collection you had and wanted to fill the gap, I'd go pick up a good used Remington Model 700 (or a Savage 110) with a decent scope, probably in .270, .308, or 30-06, have the barrel glass bedded, and the trigger smoothed up. You've already got a semi-auto in the mini-14; it seems like you want longer range accuracy, and trying to find that in a semi-auto with higher capacity is probably going to cost you more than $400.

[mainmech48]

If SHTF use under most-likely conditions is truly on your screen, you might want to rethink the Remmy trombone. Don't get me wrong - they are great hunting/sporting rifles - but that's the problem. They were never designed to hold up and operate reliably under the kind of extended hard, no-time-for-detail-cleaning use they'd see in a quasi-military role.

Compared to most other 'sporting' manual actions, they're delicate, complex, and very dependent on detailed maintenance for reliable function.
IMHO, a better alternative in a non-BA would be something like the aforementioned Savage 99 or the Browning BLR-81.

A real low-buck competitor would be an Ishapore SMLE 2A1. It meets your criteria very well, is Kali-available, and can still be had in VG+ condition for under $200.

Ten round mag, 7.62 NATO/ .308, at least as accurate as the general run of OTB 'budget-friendly' commercial BAs (with the possible exception of SOME Savage 110s), can be 'scoped on either the receiver or 'scout-style' with readily available mounts, and has one of the fastest-operating hell-for-rugged actions ever fielded.

Not very pretty, but as functional as shoes and as reliable as gravity.

Lots of merit in the .357 carbine, too. Not your 200-yd. outfit, but at 100 or so it'll sure make 'em take a deep, personal interest in keeping their heads down. Having a longarm that uses the same ammo as your sidearm makes just as much practical sense today as it did back in 1875, and for many of the same reasons.

[ducktapehero]

Lots of merit in the .357 carbine, too. Not your 200-yd. outfit, but at 100 or so it'll sure make 'em take a deep, personal interest in keeping their heads down. Even at 200 yards(maybe further) I think the 357 would be accurate enough to at least keep a opponents head down long enough to get outta there.

[Ron L]

I have a Marlin in 357 and love the rifle. I interchange ammo with my Dan Wesson or my mom's Ruger. It really is my favorite shooter. 200 yards would be asking a bit much of it though, even with some of my hotter handloads.

However, given your criteria, the 7600 would be my choice. I didn't read anybody else make this point, but in a SHTF situation, you don't have to let go of any part of the gun to recock it like you would a bolt rifle. Not a big matter to most folks, but something to consider. Also, since you already have an 870, you're used to the pump action. Get one of the Eagle 10 round mags and a lower power variable power scope and I'd consider it done.

[BusMaster007]

:D Here's some links, pix and info for you.
You can link to the other Law Enforcement and Remington "Citizen's" rifles/shotguns from these pages.

The ADL will use short OR long action, depending on the cartridge.

http://www.remington.com/firearms/centerfire/700adsyn.htm
http://www.remington.com/images/firearms/700_adlsyn.jpg
________________________________________________________

http://www.remingtonle.com/rifles/7600.htm
http://www.remingtonle.com/images/rifles/m7600.jpg

The utility of the 7600 is obvious when compared to the 870.
Also of note is the 'pistolgrip buttstocks' that are available for the 870...they WILL fit the 7600/7400 with minor filing of the piece that fits into the back of the action/receiver. I've done it. It's pretty cool.

http://www.remingtonle.com/shotguns/870pmax.htm
http://www.remingtonle.com/images/shotguns/870pmax.jpg

You'd have to find an FFL that will work with you to obtain these particular 7600's, probably, but I'm sure it can be done.
The 700 POLICE is also a good choice for the bolt-action, new or used. PSS or LTR, either one to suit your fancy or needs.
I'll follow with a couple of pix of what I did so you can see it.
Back in a jiffy.

[BusMaster007]

I need to update my pix someday...
The 7400 is one I wanted to do like this and finally did it. The buttstock is a Choate. They have other versions that will work, too.
It's now back to 'hunting configuration' with a Bell&Carlson stock. This is the 'Y2K' version:
http://www.hunt101.com/img/093927.jpg
http://www.hunt101.com/img/112906.jpg
Mention of the plastic or other aftermarket mags vs. the standard Remington 4-rd. has me admitting the Remington mag is the ONLY way to go. The other ones just don't work very well, if at all, and should be shot AT instead of FROM! ;) There's a difference in the 7400 & 7600 mags, too, I think. My 7400 mags have a lever on the left side that brings the follower down to allow the bolt to go forward. I don't know for sure, but I don't think that wouldn't be necessary on a 7600.

When I bought the 700 POLICE, I intended to use .308 'enhanced power' ammo from Hornady and Federal. Therefore I wanted the full 26" bbl. to utilize all the powder expansion. That rifle was sold to me new for $700.
I almost went with the LTR, but thought that the ammo I wanted to use would be wasted with the shorter bbl.
I also did a LOT of homework on the scope and mounting system, plus the stock I wanted to use.
The factory stock is OK, but I wanted a Hogue rubber overmoulded stock with the pillar bedding vs. the bedding block.
My intent was to save weight, except in the bbl.
The opposite tack that most guys use on these rifles. They usually spend a ton of money modifying the gun and it weighs 18lbs. when they're done. Mine is totally stock and weighs about 12lbs., plus it fits my hands better and won't be slippery.
http://www.hunt101.com/img/091034.jpg

[BusMaster007]

I like the idea of the ADL for your .308.
If you decided to use a Hogue stock, you'd need to get a BDL.
You have the opportunity to get a really slick rifle to use and I'm excited for you. Knowing you're about to have fun getting a new gun should be exciting for everyone reading about it! :)

I want to show you my favorite rifle. It was my first big-game rifle and when I bought it I intended for it to look like this.
I hadn't amassed any more, even though I knew I'd get there someday.
The guys at work had me so confused it took me almost 2 YEARS to decide between this and that...
So, when my Wife said "JUST GET A RIFLE AND QUIT DRIVING ME CRAZY ABOUT IT!!!" :what:
Moral of that story? Don't Wait.
I went to a Big5 and found a 1989 Remington 700 AS ( Aralon Synthetic ) in 7mm Rem.Mag. and took it home! It was fine as it was, but I wanted to change it right away. It had a Redfield Widefield 3-9 scope in Redfield JR base and rings and I got a compliment from some old guy at the range, which REALLY made my day. He said, "Nice rifle, son..." I was proud.
Then, I got busy with the overtime and catalogs!

I put it in a Bell&Carlson Premier Thumbhole stock and bought a Leupold Tactical scope for it, plus a Harris bipod and Bianchi Cobra sling.
BAM! Instant 'Tactical Hunter'!
http://www.hunt101.com/img/091045.jpg

Here it is in the standard stock, with sights removed, and the B&C stock repainted Krylon Satin Hunter Green.
http://www.hunt101.com/img/091017.jpg

Hope you can use this stuff to get ideas on YOUR rifle.
Let us know what you get!
Thanks for letting me share. It's been the gun magazines and internet that has inspired me to go the direction I did.
I hope others get the same enjoyment and encouragement I've gotten.
LATER!

[BusMaster007]

Here's a link to an ADL in .30-06 ( good choice, too ) with excellent views of the gun:
http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=25270919

[goon]

If you want a quick firing .308, maybe a 99 Savage?
Lever action with a rotary magazine.
Holds six rounds total and is plenty fast.
Plus they eject to the side (sort of an angle) and have a solid top if you want to mount a scope.
The 99 Savage really was way ahead of its time.:cool:

I would gladly take one over a Remington any day of the week.

Also, if you are willing to go with a military bolt action, you can have your pick of a Mauser, Enfield, or Mosin Nagant for pretty cheap.
The Enfield is undoubtedly the fastest but ammo is generally more expensive and harder to find unless you get an Ishapore in 7.62x51 (I have one on hold at a local shop right now :D).
My absolute favorite rifle ever is my Finn M-39. That thing is extremely well made, powerful, reliable, and very accurate. I am looking to get another after I sell my FAL.
If my bullet riddled body is ever found on a roof top surrounded by empty casings, that Finn is the rifle they will be pulling out of my hands.

[TCW]

Thanks for all of the thoughtful replies!

I've narrowed it down to:

1. Marlin lever 30-30 w/ scope (200 yard gun?)
2. Savage bolt .308 (400 yard gun?)
3. Surplus bolt (Mosin, Swiss K-31, Enfield, etc)...If cheap enough, I will also pick up an SKS.

Question: If going for a scoped set up, which of the old surplus rifles will allow you to use a scope in the standard rear position (not forward, therefore needing a pistol scope)?

Are surplus rifles accurate as compared to a modern bolt?

Is 200 yds pretty much the limit for a 30-30?

The Rubin K-31 sounds like a good gun, but I hear the recoil is punishing.

The Mosin I hefted at the gun shop was cool, but I could barely operate the safety and the bolt was quite sticky.

Thanks!
TCW

[goon]

A scoped 30-30 will do 200 yards.
A scope 308 Savage bolt action will do 400 (my open sighted FAL will do 400 and both Savage bolt actions I had did much better than my FAL has ever thought about being.)
A model 99 Savage lever action .308 will give you the speed of a lever action and the range of a bolt action.

For scoped use, an Enfield isn't too hard to get scoped but it does require drilling and tapping with all the mounts I have ever seen. Same with Mausers. But I have seen it done. I hate to see a good old military gun permanently altered like that, but realistically there are enough around that one less isn't going to make a huge difference.
Scoping a Mosin Nagant is slightly more challenging but I really havent looked into scoping mine. I might build a replica 91/30 sniper some day though.
Hopefully someone will chime in with some more knowledge on scoping though.

As far as accuracy, all of the military surplus rifles I have shot were as accurate or more accurate than new sporting arms I have owned.
My Finnish M-39 is the finest shooting rifle I have ever owned and you couldn't pay me enough to trade it for a Remchester. If you buy excellent condition with a good tight bore it should shoot very well.

The K-31 is known to be very accurate and may even edge the M-39 (although I doubt it), but ammo for them is expensive and hard to come by.

On my Mosin Nagant I don't really use the safety. I only load four unless I am shooting it at the range, in which case I load five and immediately shoot them. The safety is troublesome on them. I will give you that much.

To me, a scope isn't that necessary. I wear glasses but my eyesight is pretty decent with them so I just use the open sights. I like the issue sights on these rifles because you can immediately adjust them for different ranges and use the same hold to put your lead on target.
Back when I was shooting more I could routinely (about 8 out of 10 times) hit standard clay pigeons with my M-39 at 200 yards, and that wasn't with the good one. That was with the beat up VKT I used as a shooter. Clay pigeons are tiny at that range but that wasn't of much help to them. :D
Even the 91/30 that I gave my brother was respectable out to 400 yards, and you can pick them up for $60. An M-39 will run you from about $150 for a good shooter to around $250 for an unissued rifle depending on the maker. They are well worth the money IMO, but the 91/30 is great too.
Having owned and shot both, I can attest to the difference between them though. You can immediately tell that the Russians were conscript soldiers and that the Finns were mush more concerned with the individual soldier than the Russians were.

Despite my love of the M-39, the Mauser might be better in some respects (it has a more useable safety) and is probably a good place to start if you want to try a milsurp.

Being in Kali isn't that big of a deal. Don't get me wrong. The hand that was dealt to you guys isn't good.
Still though, I really would take my Milsurp over anything else I can get my hands on.
I am selling my FAL to buy components and ammo for my M-39.
That should say something about them. ;)

[MrMurphy]

There are "no-tap" scope mounts out there.


My Lee-Enfield hit a truck sized target repeatedly with the issue iron sights, sitting position at 950 yards, and also at 600. They can be more than accurate enough if you want.

[roscoe]

Don't forget the Winchester 88: lever action .308 with a superior lock-up (like the Savage 99), but has the advantages of a detachable magazine (extras are available) and a one-piece stock. And, since the trigger swings down with the lever, you can't mash your fingers.