Best Special Forces in the world?


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natedog
February 26, 2003, 08:20 PM
What do you think?

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Gewehr98
February 26, 2003, 08:26 PM
And is it gun-related? :rolleyes:

The best special forces in the world are the ones who steal into Yongbyon under cover of darkness, and destroy that breeder reactor and Plutonium 239 reprocessing facility.

sixgun_symphony
February 26, 2003, 08:41 PM
Where is the Special Boat Squadron of the Royal Marines?

Where is Delta Force? Spetsnatz? 9th Para Assault Regiment?, Australia's Special Air Service Regiment?,

Stealthfixr
February 26, 2003, 08:44 PM
They are the largest SOF group of all, and missed above!

Schuey2002
February 26, 2003, 08:47 PM
The best special forces in the world are the ones who steal into Yongbyon under cover of darkness, and destroy that breeder reactor and Plutonium 239 reprocessing facility.
Bingo!! We have a winner. :D

Kahr carrier
February 26, 2003, 08:48 PM
Voted others your missing a few.:)

coonan357
February 26, 2003, 08:51 PM
the United states Navys Seals are the best followed by the Green berets ( in honor of SSGT Uncle Ken GB if I don't say this he will Kick my "leg" **s out of a plane with no chute .) :uhoh:

natedog
February 26, 2003, 08:54 PM
Can I get a mod to add some of these suggestions to the pole?

Phyphor
February 26, 2003, 08:57 PM
Gewehr98, Nah the best SOF would be the one to enter in BROAD DAYLIGHT, and take out their reactor....:evil:

ajacobs
February 26, 2003, 08:57 PM
They are the largest SOF group of all, and missed above!

The certainly are not the largest but could qualify posibly as the best (beats me I am no expert) and should have been on the poll.

I guess it also depends what qualifys as special forces is it based on mission, or some skill level. In actuality I guess is all it takes is for the country to say they are specail and had given them some degree of extra training.

Certainly under that critera China, North Korea, and even yes Iraq have larger special forces.

IRONFIST
February 26, 2003, 09:27 PM
I've read that the Russian "Spetznaz" are capable and tough chaps.

Michael in Oregon

SIGarmed
February 26, 2003, 10:24 PM
Well this poll don't really mean much. How can you really know? How are most people that post in this funny poll getting their information? The media. We all know everything the media says is golden right?

I'd give our guys(especially Marines) and the Israeli's the nod(oops they're not even on the list!) as I'm biased. :D

Semper Fi

GLOCKT
February 26, 2003, 10:48 PM
and why is it every time we hear of the poop going down it's a RANGER squad bringing it on.
where are the NAVY SEALS,MARINE COMMANDO'S,or the GREEN BERETS when the rounds are cooking.

swampgator
February 26, 2003, 10:59 PM
and why is it every time we hear of the poop going down it's a RANGER squad bringing it on.
where are the NAVY SEALS,MARINE COMMANDO'S,or the GREEN BERETS when the rounds are cooking.

No slack to the Rangers, but they have a different mission.

Look at Panama while the Rangers were doing their mission, Delta and the SEALs were also performing other missions "when the rounds were cooking."

cheygriz
February 26, 2003, 11:05 PM
I voted "other."

IMHO, probably a pretty close tie between U.S. Navy Seals, U.S. Army Special forces, Brit SAS and Brit Royal Marine Commandos.

Personally, I wouldn't want Isreali Commandos or Russian Spetsnaz after me either.

Tamara
February 26, 2003, 11:07 PM
That's easy.

The Very Special Forces (http://www.theonion.com/onion3502/very_special_forces.html).


"Pizza party! Pizza party!" :D

Blain
February 26, 2003, 11:31 PM
The best special forces teams are those so secrative we don't even know about them. Delta force (the elite class) is near the top, though.

ArmySon
February 26, 2003, 11:32 PM
Stealthfixr stated:
Where are the US Army Special Forces (Green Berets)??
They are the largest SOF group of all, and missed above!


Sorry but this is incorrect. I hate to say it but the North Koreans have the largest SF in the world.

I've seen a lot of our boys in action but I must humbly admit the SAS are the best.

Blackhawk
February 26, 2003, 11:55 PM
Rangers.

I'm biased.

mons meg
February 26, 2003, 11:57 PM
My wife's great uncle was Marine Force Recon in the Pacific in WWII. He rowed onto Iwo Jima in the pre-dawn hours in a rubber raft. He is without a doubt the toughest man I have ever personally met, though now he is 86, and his tattoos have faded and run together.

He got out his box o' stuff for me to look at once. Copies of orders to scout islands I had never heard of before. Really interesting stuff. The words DO NOT ENGAGE always seem to figure prominently on the first page. They were supposed to take soil samples, mark locations of enemy bunkers, etc. then row back to the fleet. Sheesh.

Gewehr98
February 26, 2003, 11:58 PM
Sorry but this is incorrect. I hate to say it but the North Koreans have the largest SF in the world.

Assuming they don't try to exchange fissionables with us, that is. :evil:

Thumper
February 27, 2003, 12:00 AM
ArmySon!

You home yet? I didn't know you were here. Good to see you.

10-Ring
February 27, 2003, 12:30 AM
All of the above based on their specialties & the jobs they're called upon to do.

cordex
February 27, 2003, 12:36 AM
Right 10-ring.

Best for what?

Infiltrating a hijacked ocean liner?
Search and rescue in a jungle/urban/desert environment?
Holding a position?

What's the mission we're trying to accomplish?

voilsb
February 27, 2003, 01:00 AM
I voted 'others' for pretty much the same reasons as above: not enough choices, not enough experience/info about those choices, and the fact METT-T has a lot to do with it, too.

PATH
February 27, 2003, 01:06 AM
I am appalled! Why is there no mention of some of the elite tactical Mall Ninja teams? I am rather put out by this oversight! They are the best at being TACTICAL!:neener: :D

mack
February 27, 2003, 01:26 AM
Of those we know about - probably Delta - since they get the pick of all of the rest of the US Special Forces.

ed dixon
February 27, 2003, 01:51 AM
Mack's logic about the selection of Delta seems pretty sound. I think I heard there are only about 250 SAS at any one time and that number also sounds ridiculously selective. Going into hostile jungles in Vietnam with a company or platoon was incredibly brave. Getting dropped far into enemy-controlled jungle with a handful of other guys, at night, with no ready backup and then going on the offensive as some of those SEAL teams (and other SFs) did was insanely brave. Having the training to complete such missions successfully speaks for itself. Einstein or Newton? Hemingway or Faulkner? Don't know. Just glad so many of the good ones are on our side.

yayarx7
February 27, 2003, 02:05 AM
Since the Brits invented them I give them the nod. Though I bet the Isrealies are the best at their particular jobs.

tyme
February 27, 2003, 02:17 AM
I added a bunch. If you don't see your choice now, please suggest it. If you want your vote changed, PM me.

If you don't have an opinion or don't think it's possible to make a determination, please don't vote "other."

NotQuiteSane
February 27, 2003, 03:11 AM
No one is as good as the Mall Ninjas

but I hear they often recruit from the Navy Seels

NQS

rick458
February 27, 2003, 03:38 AM
and so are voted the highest But I had to go with Force Recon
I got to support my Brothers......Semper FI:cool:

UnknownSailor
February 27, 2003, 03:49 AM
I'd say the British SAS, but the SEALS and DELTA aren't much behind.

I'd hate to have to count on the difference.

KY Moose
February 27, 2003, 03:53 AM
It is hard to really say who is the best. Just about all of the special operations units have different missions and such. Like it was said before, if there was a specific task we were talking about, it maybe easier to choose who is the best at that task.

BTW, since USAF Pararescue is up there, may as well add USAF Combat Control to the list.

But if we are talking about the meanest, best equipped, all round dangerous, snake eaters, then I pick the Mall Ninja. :D

tyme
February 27, 2003, 04:21 AM
I think a good metric that doesn't discriminate by type of force would be something like:

rating = qualifications + equipment + training + experience
where training is something like
Avg(i=1 to n, Q_i) * (1-.75^n)
Where n is the number of suitably distinct types of training and Q_i is the quality of a particular type of training.

There are probably some quasi-guerrilla "special" forces in places like the former Yugoslavia that have so much experience that they might rival special forces in more developed countries.

Given that formula, even though Rangers do have their unique specialization, they probably aren't a candidate for "best overall," nor are the USAF paratroopers . SWAT teams have experience but their mission is so different that most do not have the same level of firefight experience or training as military units. Some foreign intelligence service groups probably qualify; I don't know which ones.

Blain, that assumes that such groups exist. Unless you're talking about 3rd world countries' guerrilla forces, I submit that information about such groups in more developed countries, especially those with blood-sucking press reporters, would leak. If they're so secret that nobody knows about them, what *good* are they? I don't think any group could be good enough to be effective and yet fly under everyone's (including the media's) radar at the same time.

T.Stahl
February 27, 2003, 05:07 AM
I have to say that, if I'd be sitting in a hijacked airliner, I'd hope it belongs either to British Airways or Lufthansa.
My vote goes to the guys who come from the town where I started to drink my tea with milk. ;)

Leadbutt
February 27, 2003, 05:18 AM
I also voted other, for my brothers who are no longer
"Long Range Recon Patrol" we were so good the Rangers sucked us up to help form them out

"STAY ALERT STAY ALIVE"

RTW
February 27, 2003, 05:18 AM
I wouldn't want to tangle with these guys (http://www.hillsdale.edu/academics/phil&rel/pix/humor/USRSF.html)

Sleeping Dog
February 27, 2003, 07:44 AM
"Best" at what?

If I wanted a small team to get a picture or snatch a prisoner, I'd think of Delta Force or Seals.

If I wanted a small team to organize residents of an area into a viable resistance force, I'd think of Special Forces.

A big team to capture a harbor or airport or capital? Rangers.

Send the wrong team for the mission, as we sometimes did in Panama and Grenada, and things can get messy.

To send a team in ahead of Force Recon, Seals, etc, we have super-elite groups, like "Tactical Volunteer Human Shields" and "Reporters and Photographers". They established the beach-head at Mogadishu. :)

Regards.

Tom C.
February 27, 2003, 07:58 AM
I voted for the SAS because they are the ones everyone else has copied to develop their own, like Delta, GSG9, etc. That said, SEALS and Delta are two of the best in the world. Delta often mixes with the Rangers or are called Rangers, so they never get credit for anything they do.

trooper
February 27, 2003, 08:54 AM
I'll second T.Stahl on the GSG 9 because I've seen them demonstrating their skill and trust them.


Regards,

Trooper

seeker_two
February 27, 2003, 09:54 AM
Skunkabilly's Korean All-Girl Sniper Force...:evil:

Stealthfixr
February 27, 2003, 02:59 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
They are the largest SOF group of all, and missed above!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



The certainly are not the largest but could qualify posibly as the best (beats me I am no expert) and should have been on the poll.

I guess it also depends what qualifys as special forces is it based on mission, or some skill level. In actuality I guess is all it takes is for the country to say they are specail and had given them some degree of extra training.

Certainly under that critera China, North Korea, and even yes Iraq have larger special forces.

US Army SF *is* the largest in the US armed forces! As a member of said armed forces (USAF), I only track other air forces now. I used to be US Army, once upon a time, and I am sure the Green Berets are the largest dedicated SOF force we have. Rangers and Marine Force Recon are NOT SOF, though they can perform some SOF missions--there is a difference between specialized, highly trained infantry and SOF.

Waitone
February 27, 2003, 03:45 PM
What's the mission.

Not all special operations units do the same missions.

Offshore drilling platforms? Seals.

Long range, long duration recon? SAS.

Take down airfields? Rangers.

Hostage rescue from an airliner? GSG-9.

Body snatching? Delta.

In terms of having the largest set of brass privates day in and day out, the award has to go to Studies and Observation Group (SOG) during the Vietnam conflict in NV, SV, Laos, and Cambodia.

CMichael
February 27, 2003, 04:28 PM
My speculation is that the Israelis are the best. They have to be or Israel wouldn't still be around. Israel is a tiny country in a pool of enemies. They have no choice but to be the best.

Soap
February 27, 2003, 05:50 PM
Where is the option for "How the heck would I know?" :)

Dannyboy
February 27, 2003, 06:21 PM
I say SAS because they probably have more experience than any other unit.

Sean Smith
February 27, 2003, 07:10 PM
My guess is that almost anybody here would have no basis whatsoever for knowing the real answer. And it depends on the mission anyway. Having said that, I'd guess the SAS or Delta for all-around badditude.

I'd suggest that you don't underrate U.S. Special Forces, however. When it comes to their real specialty (insurgency/counter-insurgency) they are ridiculously competent. Remember, a few A-teams basically facilitated the total collapse of the entire Taliban regime in about a month. :cool:

pale horse
February 27, 2003, 07:20 PM
The Mossod (sp??)

Jedi_7.62
February 27, 2003, 07:31 PM
Honestly I have no basis to judge. The only experience I have is My brother has a friend who is a Ranger. He's a pretty good shot and a good guy but never hit me as anything special. Honestly I've known regular Marines who had more "BADITUDE"

Then again I don't know what he does when he's at "work" .

I would think the Israelis may be the toughest bunch right now. I'd guess they see more action than the rest.

I think I saw something on the History channel once aboout them helping started Delta Force? Not sure.

I am sure I wouldn't want any of them coming after me.

Skunkabilly
February 27, 2003, 07:35 PM
Negative Seeker Two, she's police, not military. What's ATMD?

I'd have to go with the THR Moderator Force 9.

Bahadur
February 27, 2003, 09:00 PM
My Kung Fu is better than your Kung Fu.

Special operations forces have different missions, training, capabilities and operating environments. There is no such thing as "best special forces."

If one proposes a hypothetical environment, opposition and mission, we can talk about which force might be the best-suited/appropriate (which, even then, is a wild guess at best).

Crimper-D
February 27, 2003, 09:33 PM
The LAPD SWAT Team = Those guys get even more work on a nearly daily basis than even the Isralis. They only make the news when they screw up - thanks to the LA Times and the rest of the Leftist media.:mad:
My vote was for the Marine Force Recon. Those boys have OJT in being undetected = they infiltrate your position and leave undetected, and the frist thing you know, you are blasted out of existence by Naval gunfire,Field Artillery and every kind of airstrike known.:what: :evil:

nathan
February 27, 2003, 10:03 PM
I think all of them do best with placed into comabt where they are trained for. In actual combat theres no saying he is good or not, it is very unpredictable. Bullets don't say who to pick so if it heads your way so be it.
I say the best is who has the most trigger time. More opportunities for real life and death experience.

Coffee357
February 28, 2003, 06:50 AM
Voted U.S.Navy Seals but I suspect that Isreal has some special units that are right up there. 50+ years of fighting for your survival has to provide a certain degree of experience (and the fact they are still there suggest that they learned at least a few lessons well!). I really would hate to be up against any of the teams mentioned.

Coffee

Bahadur
February 28, 2003, 01:31 PM
Voted U.S.Navy Seals but I suspect that Isreal has some special units that are right up there. 50+ years of fighting for your survival has to provide a certain degree of experience (and the fact they are still there suggest that they learned at least a few lessons well!). I really would hate to be up against any of the teams mentioned.There is no magic to either the Navy SEALs or various Israeli special units. They are simply better human material, more highly trained and drilled into specific (and different) sets of skills. For example, if we are speaking of an ability to insert an underwater demolition type of a team ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD, the SEALs would be a good candidate. If we are speaking of the ability to operate in a highly hostile Palestinian urban environment, an Israeli Sayeret team may be appropriate.

God knows Navy SEALs operations were bungled in the past, resulting in deaths. Likewise, before the pullout from Lebanon, some elite Israeli commando units were ambushed by the Hizbullah militia (!), resulting in significant casualties.

There are lessons in both about the nature of the special operations forces.

Freedom in theSkies
February 28, 2003, 01:35 PM
JTF 2

Nuf said

seeker_two
February 28, 2003, 01:55 PM
What's ATMD?

ALL Terrorists Must Die.

(I don't want to appear discriminatory...:evil: )

Negative Seeker Two, she's police, not military.

I had a feeling that y'all operated outside the military chain-of-command structure...;)

thaddeus
February 28, 2003, 03:06 PM
One of my students was a SEAL and he told me that by the time most of us heard of the SEALs, there were two more elite units formed above them.
Select the best from the SEALs and form a new secret unit. Then select the best from the secret unit and form a super-secret unit. The special forces that we know of are just the entry-level for the serious operators, whom we will never hear about.

According to him, the SEALs became more of a promotional tool for the Navy once they become publically known. And that marketing promotion worked, shown by how many people vote that the SEALs are the best, solely on what they have seen in entertainment media.

Waitone
February 28, 2003, 03:45 PM
According to him, the SEALs became more of a promotional tool for the Navy once they become publically known. And that marketing promotion worked, shown by how many people vote that the SEALs are the best, solely on what they have seen in entertainment media.Interesting you say that. I've known about SEALS for decades but only through non-media sources. Then all of a sudden, about the time cable TV got popular, SEAL are in vogue. They went from a shadowy group to headliners. Suddenly the PR machine began working overtime promoting a group heretofore secret.

It was almost as if the CINCSEAL walked across the hallway to the Marine Corp Press Office and asked them to do some freelance PR for a sister service. I have to admire the Marine Corp PR efforts. Hands down the best in the US military and now it seems SEAL's are being handled by the same PR group.

Amazing.

rogueim
May 13, 2005, 05:37 PM
The FFL is one of the oldest the specail force units around they actually served under Napolean. I know most of you think the Navy Seals go thru some tough traing well Seals have tried tthe FFL jungle warfare school in Fech New Guinne and they looked misrable trying to comptete. Legionairs they do it all the time. They thought the Seals to be soft. So much for the tough Seals. Most Specail Ops today are like new born babies when it comes to the trainig and dignity the FFL bring with to every fight. They swear alliegance to the FFL and no country. If you are a true soldier you have to love that. Swear your oath to the man your gonna fight with and the unit. Mike

BlkHawk73
May 13, 2005, 05:58 PM
Let's see 2 posts by rogueim and neither gun related. :confused: Seems to have some hangup on Special Forces groups though. No apparent interest in firearms discussion but hey, why do that at a Firearms forum. :p

Mal H
May 13, 2005, 06:10 PM
rogueim - You dredged up a thread that is over 2 years old to talk about the French Foreign Legion?

When you say "jungle warfare school in Fech New Guinne", do you actually mean their training facility in French Guiana?

What's a Seal?

Sactown
May 13, 2005, 06:19 PM
I voted other. The best special forces in the world are the ones you never hear about like the MIB.

DarkKnight01
May 13, 2005, 06:29 PM
I find it funny that Navy Seals got the most votes... Ive met seals and landed a few on their cans... my father and his buddies (5th special forces Green Berets) used to beat on Seals for exercise in the morning.... GSG9 Is far ahead of the seals, but they just dont have the exposure... as well as several others listed... but im afraid the media has influenced many folks opinions.. and probably that movie with Demi Moore LOL :banghead:

Tory
May 13, 2005, 06:42 PM
"rogueim - You dredged up a thread that is over 2 years old to talk about the French Foreign Legion?"

He can't even spell Special (or much of anything else) correctly, yet claims to have been one. You expect relevance from a source like that? :rolleyes:

Someone's spent WAAAAAAY too much time playing video games and far too little educating himself. :scrutiny:

DarkKnight01
May 13, 2005, 06:48 PM
Tory you do have a point... but I can understand... my father cant spell worth a darn, and I know he isnt a poser....

bill2
May 13, 2005, 08:12 PM
I remember reading about the increase in publicity of the SEALS, and heard that it was due to more military units fighting for fewer military dollars after the cold war ended.

I don't know if this is true or not. anyone know?

boofus
May 13, 2005, 10:14 PM
The A-Team wins my vote. Mr T don't need no fancy tactical doodads. He just tosses all the bad guys through windows.

roo_ster
May 13, 2005, 10:43 PM
I voted Rangers. If I didn't, I fear the shades of Rogers, Merrill, & Abrams would rise up, rip my head off, tear out my heart, and have my headless, heartless meat sack pushing Georgia in Hades for all eternity. I don't want that.

That being said(TM), you must use the right tool for the job. The US is blessed with several units having complementary skill sets.

Joejojoba111
May 13, 2005, 11:17 PM
bill2"I remember reading about the increase in publicity of the SEALS, and heard that it was due to more military units fighting for fewer military dollars after the cold war ended.

I don't know if this is true or not. anyone know?"

Yea I read that about the times that mose people became aware of the uber SEALS is conveniently about the time that Special Forces were being recognized as a seperate branch, and were assuming control of relevant units from the other branches, and receiving funding for them. Suddenly when there's a bunch on funding involved the Navy decides that it LOVES it's SEALS, can't live without them, look what they can do, these nifty guys are our pride and joy, please don't take them away:( boo hoo hoo. There was a LOT of resistance to giving the special forces budgetary power, because that's a big deal. Goldwater-Nicols, I think it was, and not only did the act have to be passed, when the military ignored it and fudged a clarification had to be passed stating the the special forces command was to have absolute control of it's funds, not ask the army to buy stuff for it. It was all in this (Clancy) book on special forces, which I should mention wasn't written by Clancy so much as a guy named Steiner who was head of special forces for a few years.



Hmm, to consider what force would be best, you'd have to ask what at. They aren't front-line soldiers, or they wouldn't be 'special'. So like people said if you want hostage rescue you have to specify. Otherwise Spetzsnaz would probably be the best, with the the widest scope, the most official support, consistent funding, an expansive array of capabilities, and all that. They might not be the best at any one thing, but they wouldn't be worse than #2, and there's likely no-where else that covers all the things they can do.

For instance, to see how ingrained they were, you'd have Spetsnaz in the olympic games, maybe a rowing team, or a long-jumper. That stuff would really help with international travel. Then there were Spetsnaz teams for almost any other mission you can imagine. If WW3 had happened it's likely that every western leader would have been picked-off at the outset, for instance.

Stand_Watie
May 13, 2005, 11:32 PM
A friend I was in the guard with who was force recon in the mid 70's claims the seals are the "baddest of the bad" regarding U.S. special forces.

My personal vote goes for redneck special forces

http://www.grouchyoldcripple.com/archives/~edneckForces.jpg

Correia
May 14, 2005, 12:44 AM
19th SF group. Utah National Guard. :)

Freaking superheroes. God bless them and I'm glad they're home. (for now)

Dang this is an old thread. And one thing that is really interesting is that probably 98% of the votes in this poll are based one heresay and third hand information.

Edmond
May 14, 2005, 12:58 AM
Why isn't there a Jedi Knight choice? :D

DelayedReaction
May 14, 2005, 02:13 AM
I suspect the best group out there is the one that none of us have ever heard about.

stevelyn
May 14, 2005, 08:23 AM
Rainbow 6.:D

MarineTech
May 14, 2005, 09:42 AM
The finest special forces in the world are the Hare Krishnas. They've already taken over all our airports, and we seem unable to stop them. :evil:

Clean97GTI
May 14, 2005, 04:39 PM
Evangelical Christians!

They kill you with kindness!!!

Actually, my vote went for Israeli Isayeret

Arc-Lite
May 14, 2005, 05:04 PM
anyone define "best" yet ? best what, beer drinkers? best recon? best what ? totally goofy thread....teams don't pee for distance for the public.

bradvanhorn
May 14, 2005, 05:29 PM
anyone define "best" yet ? best what, beer drinkers? best recon? best what ? totally goofy thread....teams don't pee for distance for the public.
Glad you brought this up... I was having the very same thoughts...

Joejojoba111
May 14, 2005, 05:35 PM
"anyone define "best" yet "

Who won the olympics?

Usually they go by medal count, then you get arguments over why a bronze and gold count both as 1 medal...

"Hmm, to consider what force would be best, you'd have to ask what at. They aren't front-line soldiers, or they wouldn't be 'special'. So like people said if you want hostage rescue you have to specify. Otherwise Spetzsnaz would probably be the best, with the the widest scope, the most official support, consistent funding, an expansive array of capabilities, and all that. They might not be the best at any one thing, but they wouldn't be worse than #2, and there's likely no-where else that covers all the things they can do."

Arc-Lite
May 14, 2005, 05:47 PM
the spetznaz...are good as long as creative thinking is not one of their requirements, then they fail to even hear the starting gun...goofy thread, in the teams, your as good as your last outing.

Mal H
May 14, 2005, 07:27 PM
Dang this is an old thread. And one thing that is really interesting is that probably 98% of the votes in this poll are based one heresay and third hand information.anyone define "best" yet? ...totally goofy thread...I suspect the best group out there is the one that none of us have ever heard about.
All valid points. I still don't understand why this thread was dredged up from the depths. I am going to invoke the seldom used "Old thread closed since it was reopened for no good reason" clause* and close it. I don't see any need to waste any additional disk space on it.



* Ok, ok, this is actually the first use of that clause, but it will be used more often from now on.

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