[10-Ring]

Didn't the German people learn anything from WWII, the holocaust or Hitler? Can't they see Hussein repeating many of the same things?
The closer we get to war in Iraq I become more clear as to why we need to go in, why can't the rest of western Europe?

[twoblink]

Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.

Those who do know history might try to repeat it.

First sentence for Germany, Second sentence for Iraq trying to be like old Germany.

[Blackhawk]

Most of those who learned have died.

The embarassing history of the 3rd Reich has not been taught in Germany for decades, AFAIK.

[Schuey2002]

If you watch Deutsche Welle you get the feeling that most Germans want to forget all about the 3rd Reich and anything having to do with Hitler or The Holocaust..

I could be wrong but, it's an impression that I get..;)

[trooper]

Nope.

3rd Reich history is taught extensively in German schools and colleges.

It is impossible to forget about it here because whenever something important happens someone inevitably raises the question "How does this relate to our history and is it politically correct?"

That's allright with me; the 3rd Reich and its atrocities certainly mustn't be forgotten.

However, there's a growing number of people in Germany who don't mind to be remembered but who do mind to blamed for it anymore as it all happened almost 3 generations ago.

I guess that's what you're referring to, Schuey.

We don't blame you (the present Americans) for extincting the native Americans, either...

Blackhawk,
I have to admit that I asked for it yesterday. While I am indeed critical of some of the Bush administration's recent actions, I should have picked my words more carefully. I was angry and I overreacted.

I hope this doesn't stand in the way of future debates as I've come to enjoy this forum.


Regards,

Trooper

[Khornet]

as Churchill famously said, are either at your feet or at your throat. They can either lay waste to the world or renounce force with pathologic intensity, but they are incapable of carrying a sword to be drawn only in self-defense. Thus Germany.

[trooper]

German armed forces have participated in more than 130 UN peace-keeping missions abroad since they were founded.

Right now 8,493 soldiers are involved in missions in Kosovo, Bosnia, Macedonia, Usbekistan, Georgia, Afghanistan and Djibouti (including special forces hunting Al Qaida operatives in Afghanistan).

Our ressentiments about a war against Iraq have nothing to do with "renouncing force with pathological intensity".

You should not forget that a lot of other countries have similar feelings about the situation (e.g. most of the British; Tony Blair is a very lonely Briton right now...)


Regards,

Trooper

[BigG]

Khornet's take on Churchill is right on. Either slavishly devoted or bellicosely arrogant, no middle ground. I love the deutsch but that's about the size of it.

[Gary H]

Trooper:

Ya, and your government just announced that it will pull troops out of Afghanistan if things go hot due to Iraq.

I must admit that I didn't know that your troops were on the search in Afghanistan. I thought that you were only based in major cities. How many terrorists have your folks caught? It doesn't get much press here in the U.S..

[trooper]

I just searched the net and couldn't find the info you mentioned about us drawing out of Afghanistan.

I only found some comments about that the situation in Kabul might get more dangerous for the ISAF in case of a war.

BTW the german parliament will decide tomorrow about the duration of the German participation. It is expected to keep German troops in Afghanistan for at least another year, and then decide again.

You're almost right, most of our troops are part of the ISAF in Kabul. Germany and Holland are scheduled to take over ISAF command from Turkey soon.

However, some German commandos participated in the actual combat and search missions and fought alongside US, British and Canadian special forces. They don't get much media coverage over here either.


Regards,

Trooper

[Schuey2002]

I guess that's what you're referring to, Schuey.
Yeah...;)

[USGuns]

trooper,

There is absolutely NO analogy between the 3rd Reich and the plight of Native Americans in the US.

I strangely hear this often from Europeans and wonder if this is being taught so you don't feel so bad for your past aggressions. Some sort of "moral equivalency"?

Besides, the US has a LONG ways to go to catch up with Europeans on the number of deaths caused over the last 200 years.

[hops]

I wonder how many people on this board realize that the British RAF used poison gas in 1922 in Iraq against Iraqi freedom fighters? Gee, I wonder why Sadaam would want such weapons too? Perhaps because they are effective?

All nations have blood stained hands. Germany interestingly enough seem to be the only nation to be reminded of its blood stained hands on a regular basis.

I would think that American Indians can see lots of similarities in their plight in the last 200 years and that of the Jews in Europe of the '30's and 40's.

[Gary H]

Trooper:

I suspect that much goes on that we are not suppose to know much about. It may be that your special forces do a great deal, but it might not be politically smart to make it known. I know that after the horrible olympic-Israeli mess, the German military took their special forces and counter terrorism more serious.

[sixgun_symphony]

It's the extreme Left that controls much of the Western European governments.

The political environment there is alot like Berkeley, CA.

Personally, I would love to bring all our troops home from Europe. If we really need overseas bases, lets build them in Iraq as we will be closer to where they are needed.

[Gary H]

I think that Bush will move many of the German based troops to Eastern European countries. That is the scuttlebutt anyway.

[Blackhawk]

Blackhawk,
I have to admit that I asked for it yesterday. While I am indeed critical of some of the Bush administration's recent actions, I should have picked my words more carefully. I was angry and I overreacted.

I hope this doesn't stand in the way of future debates as I've come to enjoy this forum.
De nada, Trooper. Fuhgeddaboudit.... :neener:

[trooper]

Sorry for whipping up this "old" thread again...

USGuns,

I'm not making an analogy between the holocaust and the extinction (well, near extinction) of the native Americans as they are definitely not comparable in their dimensions and intentions.

Most people do, however, regard both of them as morally wrong.

What I meant to express was that no generation should be blamed for the sins of their ancestors.

BTW I agree with Hops that all nations have had some bloodshed to be blamed for in their history.

You are probably right about Europe having caused more deaths in the past 200 years. But I think in the long run things even out no matter which nation you're looking at.

I don't have to point out that "you are just as bad as we are" to make me feel better because I assume that anyway.


Regards,

Trooper

[Lone_Gunman]

I think we should pull our troops out of northwestern europe, disband NATO, and tell the French and Germans they need to provide for their own defense.

The germans have tried to take over the world twice in the past 100 years, and have killed millions of people in the name of fascism and political extremism. One generation later they are supposed to be our allies?

quote:

"Right now 8,493 soldiers are involved in missions in Kosovo, Bosnia, Macedonia, Usbekistan, Georgia, Afghanistan and Djibouti"

Is that pittance supposed to impress anyone? That number is about 1/4 the size of the New York City Police Department.

[Glockster35]

For those of you whom aren't aware the German politicians are actively trying to remove the US military from their country. I'm not sure if they just want to lower the numbers, or do away with US troops altogether.

I briefly read a story about this recently in Stars and Stripes here in Germany. I didn't read into it much, simply because I don't see it happening in my life time.

Having been stationed here for almost a year, I have come to the conclusion, that the Germans can have this country all to themselves. I have grown tired of how pushy and rude they are and how snotty they can be toward the American people. After all we did for them they snub their noses!

As a matter of fact, they are protesting the war on Iraq today at Spangdahlem.:cuss:

[trooper]

Yet you regard former eastern bloc countries as your allies which weren't exactly cornerstones of democracy either...

My generation shouldn't be blamed for the actions of our grandfathers, no matter if we are Russians, Poles, Germans or whatever.

Criticizing American politics doesn't automatically mean that people are anti-american. While people over here tend to be critical about America's current administration they generally have a friendly approach towards the American people (this is not only based on my own observations; there was an article about it in the NY Times recently).

We have not forgotten the airlift to Berlin or the Marshall plan. But I fail to see why one ally necessarily has to embrace the political opinions of the other. Only slaves obey, friends disagree sometimes.

One other thing that bothers me...
I've lived in the US for some time and I couldn't but notice that a lot of Americans have very strong emotions about their country. I can understand that because I love my own country, too.

But in this thread some things about my country have been written that are nothing short of degrading and offensive.

Do I really have to be the one to remind some of you that your own constitutution (that you like to cite so much) is based on the assumption that ALL PEOPLE ARE CREATED OF EQUAL WORTH???

Does your preamble mean "all men except krauts"?


Regards,

Trooper

[Marko Kloos]

It is a little disturbing to me that many folks here consider Turkey a better ally than Germany at present, just because Turkey supports the Iraq campaign more readily than Germany does.

Saddam is a dictator who gassed the Kurds, fair enough. The Turks don't have much love for the Kurds either, and have been quite tenaciously killing Kurds themselves, one of the main reasons why their EU membership applications keep getting denied. Turkey's human rights record, especially when it comes to the treatment of Kurds, is almost as dubious as that of Iraq.

Turkey has been mounting several punitive expeditions in the last decade against Kurds, and after Gulf War I they even went into northern Iraq to ferret out those pesky Kurds. The Iraqi Kurds fear Turkey more than they do Saddam, to the point where they have said they'd resist any Turkish invasion of northern Iraq.

The current tendency to overlook human rights abuses and police state methods in countries like Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and Kuwait, just because they are willing to host U.S. bases, reminds me of American Central America politics of the 1980s, where we supported every tinpot dictator who was willing to "take it to the Commies", no matter how badly they treated their own people.

If police state regimes and vest-pocket dictators are a bad thing, why lay in bed with some of them in order to sock it to others? Principle can never take a back seat to expediency, not if you're telling the whole world that you're about to fight a Good War of principle.

The germans have tried to take over the world twice in the past 100 years, and have killed millions of people in the name of fascism and political extremism. One generation later they are supposed to be our allies?

Do you think that losing two World Wars, and getting the country bombed to rubble and split in half for 50 years, might have something to do with the weariness of Germans to engage in military adventures abroad again?


Is that pittance supposed to impress anyone? That number is about 1/4 the size of the New York City Police Department.

Which is it? Germans are warmongers who are only one generation removed from the Nazis who tried to take over the planet...or Germany doesn't send enough of their soldiers into other countries?

[Gary H]

Trooper:

Do I really have to be the one to remind some of you that your own constitutution (that you like to cite so much) is based on the assumption that ALL PEOPLE ARE CREATED OF EQUAL WORTH???

First, in response to this quote, I think that you are misrepresenting our constitution. The basis of our country was supposedly that all white males were born equal. That has since been properly interpreted as all people are born as equals. The left would like you to believe that this means that all people should experience equal end results and this is false. After birth, you are entitled to prove your worth, or that you are worthless.

Germans should not and are not lap dogs of the United States, but in this case your country’s position is not only wrong, but rather damaging. German companies have been happily doing business in Iraq and there is a desire for status quo. Based upon history, to believe that another few months of inspections will work is just laughable, but it is a great way to stall. Once we hit hot weather, all military options are severely limited. This, of course is the strategy used by Germany, France, Iraq and others.

Some people believe that we should not strongly act against Iraq until we have a smoking gun. For example, we have recordings of Saddam telling Osama where he can pickup the VX nerve gas. Well, that is just a bucket of bull. Intelligence just doesn't work that way. If we wait for a smoking gun, the thing that will smoke is another U.S. city. It is reasonable to assume that Saddam will, in his own interest, secretly support terrorist organizations with WMDs. We can't afford the German-French stall. The German people are simply wrong.

I believe that the WWII argument is getting old. Germany of today is not the Germany of the 1930's and 1940's. I do believe that you can be thankful for our help in Berlin and oppose present day policy without being the devil incarnate, but I worry about the strong move to the left. It may be that the Communist-Socialist will ultimately win in Europe.

[another okie]

There's a new book out about the U.S. and British bombing campaigns in WW II, and more and more Germans are being reminded what it's like to be civilians in the middle of total war. We Americans should remember that we have not experienced anything like that in a long, long, time. Germans traditionally have been reluctant to discuss their suffering in the bombing because it might seem like minimizing their own guilt. That reluctance is disappearing as generations come along with no connection to the Third Reich.

[trooper]

Gary, fair one.

We might not come to an "agreement" about the Iraq issue... but that's ok, if we debate it an a civilized fashion and agree to disagree ;)

I'm glad to find some people here who would exchange opinions and ideas rather than insults.


Regards,

Trooper

[WilderBill]

For what it's worth: I beleive that Germany's reluctnce to back us in a war on Iraq is based largely on continued business dealings with Saddam & Co. Like the French.

The fact that the Baath party is a stepchild of the Nazi party makes Germany's present position look questionable at best.
I case you didn't know Saddam had a large staue of Hitler erected in Bahgdad.

We would like to think that Germany would be more aware of what appeasment leads to than anyone else. Apparently they just haven't made the connection. If Saddam isn't stopped now, Schroder & Chirac will go down in history right alongside Chamberin. Yes. many of us do see them as helping to keep a really nasty dictator in power!

I would not be surpised if we did pull most of our troups out of Germany. We can't say that they need to be there to protect the West from the Solviets anymore. Once they are gone, there will be complaints about the economy taking a downturn there as something like 200 Germans are employed, either directly or indirectly for each GI stationed there.

[Gary H]

Trooper:

It is easy for you to disagree, because your cities are much less likely to be hit. This is why the U.S. will act regardless of the U.N. It should be interesting to see if any of those weapons that Iraq doesn't have come into use.

BTW:

I believe that much support for Saddam in Germany comes from a dislike of Israel. This is based in long standing anti-Semitism. This IS a big problem in France and a problem in Germany. The issue of business dealings is important to the powerful, but I don't think that this is motivating the masses in Germany.

[trooper]

As far as I know the Baath Party (which can be found in Syria as well) is an offspring of an Arabic secular nationalist movement after WW II that aimed at doing away with the old monarchies and building a nonreligious Arabic nation.

Making a spiritual or political connection to Nazi Germany seems, um... adventurous to me.

The only common factor I see is that they're both really bad :)


Regards,

Trooper

[trooper]

I believe that much support for Saddam in Germany comes from a dislike of Israel. This is based in long standing anti-Semitism.

Nah, I don't think so (of course I have to say that ;) ) Just kiddin' about the last part).

The idea that Saddam is a cruel dictator is an undisputed common consensus over here, too, so I can say with absolute certainty that no one supports him here.

The reason of the German masses' ressentiments against a war in Iraq is that for the last 60 years one single message has been hammered into their heads by education, school, media and public opinion: war is bad. (Actually, this understandably happened on behalf of the allied powers).

This it not my own reason to question military actions against Iraq but it is what motivates the masses over here.

As for antisemitism, people worry about how Sharon deals with the Palestineans, but they generally hold no negative feelings against the Israeli people. I've witnessed great sympathy for the victims of suicide bombings as well as for the Palestineans killed by the IDF.


Regards,

Trooper

[Gary H]

Trooper:

I'm sure that you posted elsewhere, but what is your opposition to military action now?

How do you make sure that Saddam doesn't distribute his weapons to third parties?

What happens when summer comes and military action is out? How do we stop Saddam from doing what we fear? How do we detect such secret dealings?

Do you also suggest that anti-Semitism is a minor problem in France?

I made the connection between Germany-France-Israel-Saddam, by reading European press with regards to the valiant efforts of the Palestinians and the Israeli atrocities. This tripe seems to be rather prevalent in the press, especially coming from the French

[Lone_Gunman]

Lendsringer:

Answers to your 2 questions you posed:

1. No, I dont think Germany's defeat in 2 previous world wars has anything to do with their reluctance to participate in a war against Saddam. Economics, and a general attitude of disagreement with the US on social and political issues, are more likely explanations in my opinion.

2. I would say that Germany has been both a warmonger in the past, and not involved enough in the present, and they have been wrong both times.

[Glockster35]

Trooper,

I hope you don't feel that all Americans hate Germans, and that we are targeting you as being responsible for any of this. I think most of us just need to know what Germany is thinking.

Why doesn't the German government do more to rid their country of terrorists? This country is a safe haven for many of the worlds "evil-dooers". I see the German government doing little to stop it. Are there laws in effect that don't allow the Polizei to knock on doors and bust heads (I have heard this to be true)?

My take on this whole situation is that the terrorists aren't targeting Germans, so the government will simply let them be.

[Gary H]

Trooper:

What Glockster35 said is true.

I asked you a serious of questions above, because as a friend, you would not want us to be at risk of attack from Iraqi supplied weapons. I am willing to change my thoughts on war now, if you can show me another way. If not, as a friend, you must come to the same conclusion as I have, war is needed now.

[trooper]

Why doesn't the German government do more to rid their country of terrorists? This country is a safe haven for many of the worlds "evil-dooers". I see the German government doing little to stop it. Are there laws in effect that don't allow the Polizei to knock on doors and bust heads (I have heard this to be true)?

Well... first, I'm in German Law enforcement myself (though not directly involved in counterterrorism work) and I assure you that my colleagues are doing everything possible.

While we're not a primary target we're actually far from being safe. The closest thing happened already some time ago: the GSG 9 busted an islamic cell in the Southwest of Germany just one day before a planned bombing of a christmas market visited by 10,000s of people (both German and French, if I might add; it happened on the French-German border). I think it was in December 2001.

There have been other cases, some of which led to arrests. It's not hard to identify possible suspects as most of them behave quite openly about their religion; the hard part is to prove any kind of illegal activities. Some of them use Germany as a retreat and therefore are basically doing everything to avoid even the slightest breach of law which makes up quite a problem for us.

As for knocking down doors, here's an excerpt of the Penal Procedure Code (roughly translated):

"Rooms or items whose occupant is suspected of having committed a felony can be searched in order to either arrest him or find evidence."

It's not like those guys are sitting around and building bombs while we don't do a thing; we need things to confirm our initial intelligence; and if they behave in accordance with the law we can't do a thing except watching them. No judge is going to issue a search warrant just because some guy named Mustafa is known to be quite serious about his religion.

because as a friend, you would not want us to be at risk of attack from Iraqi supplied weapons

Right. I have a number of good friends in the states and wouldn't want any of them or you guys to get harmed.

I have two reasons to believe that an invasion of Iraq will not really decrease the risk of a terrorist attack with WMD.

First, Saddam Hussein's only interest is himself. He is not bound by any ideology or religion (he's muslim only for the TV cameras). He only cares about his survival and staying in power. Therefore he will do nothing that will endanger either. He's psycho and uneducated, but not irrational.
Under the current political situation any unconventional WMD attack on the US, no matter if it's traced back to Baghdad or not, would most certainly lead to the quick and fiery destruction of Iraq including its leader. Giving NBC weapons to terrorist groups would be suicidal. Remember that he always complied with the demands in the last second? Of course he plays with us to some extent but this guy WANTS to stay. He's a survival artist. He only invaded Kuwait because he honestly thought he would get away with it once he was in possession of the petrol resources. You proved him wrong and that's nothing he will risk another time.

Second, if you're only looking to Iraq as a possible source of NBC weapons you're in effect limiting your field of view drastically. A number of other not-so-stable countries have those devices and I'm pretty sure that some of them are already circulating the black markets around the globe.
Just take a look the home of your Prez' new best buddy: Moscow. There are actually some public figures about how many nuclear warheads the USSR used to have, and how many could be traced to their current location... I forgot the exact number but some of them are missing and nobody knows where they went except the corrupt officials who sold them and the unknown buyers.
I've traveled to Russia myself und know a number of folk who went there for longer periods, and they all agree that you can buy about anything in Russia given you have sufficient finances. This used to be especially true during the first years after the collapse, but hasn't changed much.


Regards,

Trooper

[T.Stahl]

Why doesn't the German government do more to rid their country of terrorists? This country is a safe haven for many of the worlds "evil-dooers". I see the German government doing little to stop it. Are there laws in effect that don't allow the Polizei to knock on doors and bust heads (I have heard this to be true)?

My take on this whole situation is that the terrorists aren't targeting Germans, so the government will simply let them be.

There are 83,000,000 people living in Germany, of which 4,000,000 are Muslims.
Studies show that more than 50% of them think that the Koran is not compatible with the our constitution.
Experts estimate that 100,000 of them can be considered Islamic fundamentalists, of which 3,000-5,000 could be close to al-Qaida.

What do you think would happen if the German police would start to search mosques and Islamic institutions en masse?
What do you think will happen in Germany when the war against Iraq starts?

[Gary H]

Trooper:

Your words regarding German anti-terrorist activity is encouraging.

Your last point regarding WMD's potential mass availability is something that we agree upon. We can't put the technological genie back into the bottle.

Your suggestion that Saddam is self-contained is well thought out, but your premises may be incorrect.

OK, back to WMD's availability. I personally doubt that Bush's WMD argument is his only motivation for taking out Saddam. I think that on September 12th, 2001, Bush asked for a threat assessment. When such a report came back, it let him know that up to one-hundred million people share many of Osama's fundamentalist beliefs and perhaps ten percent of them would be willing to act upon such beliefs. Shortly after that, the U.S. press was reporting that Bush kept rejecting plans for fighting this war. I think that there was an initial tendency to go kill, but that did not provide long term peace. He wanted a policy that would negate Osama's power base. I think that a Democratic Iraq, U.S. bases, under U.S. control, right next to Saudi Arabia and a fast, decisive destruction of Saddam was his best approach. In the short term, if you can't befriend them, you can make them fear you. The U.N. folly was a mistake, but Powell convinced him that it was necessary. Bush's hope is that Democracy will result in a vibrant Iraqi middle class and other Arab countries will then follow. U.S. bases maintain an overt threat and a protective umbrella. Iran is probably more central to terrorism than Iraq. Syria is a close second. A fast decisive victory and Iraqi bases will send a message to these two countries, as well as Saudi Arabia. Personally, I think that we can only delay the use of WMD's on U.S. soil, but it is worth a shot.
You state that:
First, Saddam Hussein's only interest is himself. He is not bound by any ideology or religion (he's Muslim only for the TV cameras). He only cares about his survival and staying in power.
and
Remember that he always complied with the demands in the last second?
We agree and both points support Bush's buildup. Unfortunately, you must follow through on your threat, or this tool will cease to be useful in the future. This is why the U.N. is a joke. They make resolutions that have the same weight at passing gas in the wind. You must have a credible stick. Eleven years of jawboning doesn't make the U.N. credible.
You state:
A number of other not-so-stable countries have those devices
and make a statement that ignores the above:
Under the current political situation any unconventional WMD attack on the US, no matter if it's traced back to Baghdad or not, would most certainly lead to the quick and fiery destruction of Iraq including its leader.
Do you think that we would hit Syria, Iran, Iraq, and North Korea, just to make sure that we got the right folks? Sounds like the Chinese might benefit from hitting us in this way and letting us react.

BTW: You do your point of view proud. You are a thoughtful person and your point of view is reasonable, but we disagree as to the foundation. I have two friends that live in Germany and would not want to see your country savaged, but I am concerned with the lurch to the left.

We are very close to the last second.

[trooper]

He wanted a policy that would negate Osama's power base. I think that a Democratic Iraq, U.S. bases, under U.S. control, right next to Saudi Arabia and a fast, decisive destruction of Saddam was his best approach. In the short term, if you can't befriend them, you can make them fear you. The U.N. folly was a mistake, but Powell convinced him that it was necessary. Bush's hope is that Democracy will result in a vibrant Iraqi middle class and other Arab countries will then follow

That's one brave assumption... I think that the more likely reaction of those other countries would be to immediately condemn the "imperialist occupation" ;) A lot of Arab people will be finally convinced that the US only brings bad news to the Middle East, and react in a hostile way. It could actually further destabilize the region.

Osama's power base IMO are not the states of Saudi Arabia or Syria but the so-called "afghans", battle-hardened veterans of decades of religious war in Afghanistan, Yugoslavia, the Caucasus, the Philippines and a dozen other countries, as well as seemingly normal muslim businessmen who donate money to islamic "charities" in order to relieve their conscience.

Oh well, I told you we'd probably never reach an agreement :)

But it was a really interesting debate and I respect your opinion, too, even though I don't completely share it. You've certainly made some very valid points.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts with me.


Regards,

Harald

[Gary H]

Same on this side, that quote is assumption on my part. I guess we will see what happens. Turkey certainly put a bump in the road. It will be a dicey situation, but what war isn't.

[trooper]

Yeah... that reminds me of an old Chinese curse: "May you live in interesting times." And interesting these days are for sure.

It sure adds a bit more thrill to watching the news.


Regards,

Trooper

[El Tejon]

10-Ring, it's all about the Benjamins. Germany has its bread buttered by Iraqi money as do the French.

I am very happy that Europeans are not willing to go to war. In fact, I would not be disappointed if Europeans threw their weapons into the sea. They will be easier to fight the next time.