Have you noticed that most gun store owners...


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SquirrelNuts
February 27, 2003, 12:03 AM
Have you noticed that most gun store owners know didley-squat about firearm laws?

I went into a local gun store that carries their fair share of Mossberg shotguns. I asked if they could order a law enforcement model that was an AOW. The man (owner) pulled out his catalog from his distributor and checked. The shortest they had was the 18.5" barrel versions. I told him this was an AOW and had a 14" barrel and pistol grip. He then told me that such a gun is illegal and does not exist. I told him I saw in on their website a few hours earlier and that if you are willing to pay for it, you can buy just about anything. He then repeated that such a gun is illegal and does not exist.

I heard this same guy giving bad information about carrying in GA a few months ago and had to stop him the info was so bad. He was telling a customer that you had to carry concealed and it had to be in a holster on or about the waist. In GA, you can open carry and wear a gun anywhere on you, including have it in your pocket, so long as you have it in something.

This is specifically about one person, but I have seen the same thing in way too many gun stores, especially with the owners! Has anyone else noticed that most of them know nothing about the laws governing their products? It seems to me that would be one of the first things on their minds.

-SquirrelNuts

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Tamara
February 27, 2003, 12:10 AM
He was telling a customer that you had to carry concealed and it had to be in a holster on or about the waist.

That used to be the law. They changed it back in '94 or '95.

45R
February 27, 2003, 12:11 AM
Good thing that store in my town doesnt fall under "most gun store owners". Everyone that works at the local store that I shop at is a gun nut.

The guys that I buy from know their stuff.

coonan357
February 27, 2003, 12:19 AM
My guy John is a walking,talking Batf reg book, and knows all the Ill state codes almost by heart , as for some of the other dipsticks that have worked there in the past ..most of the guys at the shop are very good at knowing the rules and regs . and if they have a question they ask the GM John.

Blackhawk
February 27, 2003, 12:21 AM
My experience is the same as 45R's.

Methinks "most" in the title is way overstated....

10-Ring
February 27, 2003, 12:23 AM
The of the gun shop owners I've met, one is politically active in the state & the other knows his stuff pretty good. Maybe it's more about where you live rather than what you own.

SquirrelNuts
February 27, 2003, 12:26 AM
Tamara,

I read the laws about once a month and my line of work has nothing to do with guns... I would hope he would keep up to date with his business that pays for his food, clothing, and shelter.

I swear that MOST (75%) cannot tell you the basic wording of any of the laws. One very well-known multi-store owner in the area cannot tell you jack squat, and he works in his stores (all firearms related).

-SquirrelNuts

SquirrelNuts
February 27, 2003, 12:31 AM
10-Ring,

I guess that they are just taking for granted that we have very few laws in GA concerning firearms. On the flip side, they should know all the laws seeing as how there are so few...

-SquirrelNuts

Autolite
February 27, 2003, 02:54 AM
Reference the purchase of a certain firearm, I had a gunstore owner swear up and down that the particular gun I was interested in was illegal and that I was wasting his time trying to get him to order me one. I tried to explain that I had checked the applicable laws and that the gun I was wanting was perfectly legal. At that point the gun store owner became indignant and hung up on me. I tried to order and purchase the same gun from another store, but with similar results. The second store told me I would "never be able to get one". I knew I was right about the laws and it was just a matter of time before I found a dealer who had the same understanding of the laws as I did. They got me the gun no problem. I can't fault the first two gun stores too much though. The way the some laws are written often make them very difficult to interperate ...

illuminatus99
February 27, 2003, 03:30 AM
haven't run into any of those around here, most of them know their stuff.

citizen
February 27, 2003, 06:25 AM
.......And after all this, some people are surprised at the incompetance at WallyWorld????????:rolleyes: :banghead:

XLMiguel
February 27, 2003, 10:36 AM
It's preety spotty around NOVA, some's better than others. Then again, more than a few of the cops I've run into don't know too much about VA firearms laws, either. Go figure.:rolleyes:

CZ-75
February 27, 2003, 12:24 PM
Have you noticed that most gun store owners...

Look like an extra out of "Deliverance," and ignore you so they can talk with their fishin' buddy.

Or that they don't know too much, think the gun you want is a POS and that you should get a ________, which they just happen to be a stocking dealer for.

:rolleyes:

Autolite
February 27, 2003, 07:26 PM
I wouldn't expect most cops to be familiar with guns laws. Seriously, why should any conscientious LEO waste their time memorizing usless, trivial B.S. laws that any human with a functioning brain understands have no relevance what-so-ever as to the prevention or deterence of real crime? If I were a cop, the only criteria I would use to determine if someone was violating a gun law would be whether or not I was being shot at, at the time. I am sincerely hoping that effectual police officers have much more important things to do ...

bad_dad_brad
February 27, 2003, 08:13 PM
It pays to find a good knowledgeable local dealer. I won't buy guns from anybody but him, unless I am out of town, and find something I like and purchase it on impulse (that is how I bought my KelTec P32). I trust my dealer to know guns, ammo, and the law because he does. And he is honest about his prices as well.

SquirrelNuts
February 27, 2003, 08:46 PM
CZ-75,

That is funny. I am in Georgia too. In fact, I went up to the Appalachian Trail today and went through Dawsonville where the albino that played the banjo lives. Next week I will be going through Hiawassee where they shot the town scenes to that movie.

-SquirrelNuts

Standing Wolf
February 27, 2003, 09:15 PM
There's a great deal of variation in gun shop owners, much as there's a great deal of variation in gun owners.

bogie
February 28, 2003, 09:24 AM
If I'm not mistaken, you can't purchase an AOW from just any dealer - I think that the dealer would have to be Class III - so, in effect, as far as a "general" dealer would be concerned, the entry gun would be illegal.

axeman_g
February 28, 2003, 09:32 AM
Ok squirel and CZ, I live in Ga also. And while I find this state to be a laugh a minute in regards to Citizen IQ, DOT, Criminals, Schools, Politics, Taxation, Traffic, Business Climate, Real Estate prices, laws, enviromental regulation and lack of, public safety, wildlife management, smokers, hookers, drug addicts, parking, ATLANTA, .........

I could go on and on. I love the Ga mnts towns and always have a good time. But lets not crack on the most influential piece of film to ever be shot in and about Georgia and its sexual proclivities. Remember, Deliverance is not about 4 men under attack, it a love story.

Hkmp5sd
February 28, 2003, 09:42 AM
bogie is correct. The normal 01-FFL cannot obtain and sell you an AOW. An average firearm distributor would most likely not deal in NFA weapons either.

I find the gun shop owners are in the normal-to-expert in knowing the state and federal firearms laws while the typical LEO on average knows very little about them. When talking NFA firearms, both 01-FFLs and LEOs tend to be a little behind the learning curve.

There are many, many people, including LEOs and 01-FFLs that think NFA type weapons are illegal for civilians. It comes from years of TV and liberal news media indoctrination. Of course, these same people think every gunshop has a back room where you can by LAWS and Stingers since that's they way they are in the movies.

ocabj
February 28, 2003, 12:13 PM
In California, most gun shop owners/staff know the laws. The have to. They're too afraid to mess up and get shut down by the state.

firestar
February 28, 2003, 12:51 PM
I'll go you one better. I think most gun shop owners/workers not only don't know about firearm laws but they are also often quite ignorant of the guns they are trying to sell. For example, I once heard a gunstore dude try and tell me that a standard .45acp fmj will out penetrate a standard 9mm fmj, that is why it is so deadly. Hogwash!

People need to stop talking just to hear themselves speak and think about what they are passing along to the public.

I don't think any group of people has done as much harm to the shooting community as the gunstore owners. They spead stupid rumors, lie to make a sale, cheat the customer, etc., etc. I don't mean every gunstore owner is like that but I would say the majority of the ones I have dealt with or come in contact with have been that way. No wonder shooting and guns sales are in decline. No one wants to associate with this type of person. Not even other gundealers.

I hate to say it but I think that is the way it is. Some of the worst customer service I have ever seen has been at gunstores. Some of the most crooked deals I have every witnessed has been at gun shows and gunstores.

DO NOT SUPPORT THESE PEOPLE!!!! Find a gunstore owner that is honest and informed and give him all your business. Even if it seems like his prices are higher, you still save money in the long run. You never save money by dealing with the bad sort of gun dealer, they will con you on something sooner or later.

Don't read this as a condemnation of all gun dealers. I have nothing against decent gun dealers, just the rotten mass of human filth that seems to give all gun people a black eye.

JohnBT
February 28, 2003, 04:27 PM
We have very good gun stores here.

We also have lawyers to answer questions about the law.
Some gun laws are available on the VA State Police site.
The Code of Virginia is available on line.

I don't see a problem.

Do you ask a car dealer to interpret the driving laws for you?

John

SquirrelNuts
February 28, 2003, 06:29 PM
Driving laws are (for the most part in normal operation) common knowledge, although some drivers will prove otherwise :) So, no, I do not ask a car dealer how to drive because I already know how.

In fact, if you want to compare guns to cars... http://home.att.net/~mpthole/reading/licgunretort.htm

-SquirrelNuts

freeride21a
March 1, 2003, 05:08 AM
in so kali almost all the gun stores by me know the laws good..the problem comes when they interpret them in their own way.

some sell fab-10, some wont touch it with 100ft pole, some sell neuterd fal variants, others wont touch em with 100ft poles, some sell semi belt feds...others wont touch em with 100ft poles..and each has a photocopy of some part of the regs saying that that says they can or cant sell certain things.

in truth, i think that the cali gun laws are ACTUALLY confusing...say a lot without saying much or are extremely vague.

redneck2
March 1, 2003, 07:43 AM
see, you may know think I need to be able to recite every obscure law from every municipality that's on the books

then the next guy that comes in is absolutely incensed because I don't know whether a 1937 Makarov has a 3 1/2 or 3 3/4 inch barrel

then the next guy is cranked because I don't have the newest, latest super lovesick gobbler turkey call. Of course, if I do have it, I'm 50 cents too high, so he'll order it from Cabell's (and pay $4 for shipping and handling)

then the next guy is PO'd because I can't recite the MV of the 150 grain 7mm-08 Winchester vs the Remington....

Webster's definition of an "expert"....a person who knows more and more about less and less

go ahead and get a part-time job in a gun shop evenings and week-ends. You'll find out REAL quick that you're not an "expert" either

and never will be ;)

willp58
March 1, 2003, 07:08 PM
Here are a few facts about gun stores in small town USA..

I'm a gunsmith in the small town I live in (upstate NY). I do all the work for the largest gunshop and a few others here so I see what is going on.

The owner is a business man, he is a retailer and sells everything from Marlin 22's to wool socks. He knows a lot about the Marlins and a lot about wool socks ...but not EVERYTHING about everything.

If people ask him about the workings of an 870, he'll be able to tell them anything they want to know.....If they ask him the ballistics of a 458 he might not know it.....Remember, NOONE gets it all..

Hkmp5sd
March 1, 2003, 07:14 PM
Webster's definition of an "expert"....a person who knows more and more about less and less

My definition of expert is not someone that knows most everything about a subject, but someone that knows where to look to get the information for most everything about a subject.

CZ-75
March 1, 2003, 07:58 PM
We're not talking vast expertise, but as much knowledge as any 03 with a Green Book from the BATF has.

Many 01s don't know a great deal about shipping regs, particularly as pertain to non-FFLs. Many don't know that much about logging in and out weapons in for repair. Many aren't very familiar with what is or is not legal with regard to the '94 crime bill.

I've spoken to C&R folks, and they are generally more up to speed on shipping regs than 01s.

All anecdotal, of course, but I expect someone who's business it is to sell guns to know more than other folks, and I can't say that is the case for a significant number of gun stores I've been to.

telewinz
March 1, 2003, 08:03 PM
I tried to use my C&R license several times to purchase C&R rifles and in every case the dealer would not except it because he did not know that the gun in question was a C&R gun. They didn't even know how to find out! One dealer said he had never heard of such a license:what: I won't purchase a gun sight unseen so the license had no value to me. I let it lapse and did not renew it.

CZ-75
March 1, 2003, 08:06 PM
ATF has a C&R list they send out. Best thing to do with an 03 is buy from distributors.

It's a risk, but I've been pretty happy. Worth $30, even if you use it only a few times. Can always sell what you don't like.

Forgot to mention Brownell's discount too, among other discounts.

.45Ruger
March 1, 2003, 09:49 PM
I'm very pleased with my local gun shop. I haven't been able to ask a question they couldn't answer yet.

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