[kannonfyre]

I have approached some gun owning acquaintences on what are good defensive calibers in snub nose revolvers for the recoil sensitive. Their answers in no particular order are:

i).38 special
ii) .32 H&R magnum
iii) .22 Magnum (using ultra high velocity hot 30gr loads from CCI)

If the revolver grips could be customised and the barrel ported, the following calibres could also be considered:

iv) .44 special
v) 9mm (using adaptor clips)

Any comments? How would options iv and v compare to the recoil generated by firing 124gr 9mm LRN out of a Strum and Ruger p89 or 180gr .45ACP SWC out of a traditional 1911A1?

[Frenchy]

In most cases, a .38 Special defensive load (not necessarily +P) in a snub with a comfortable grip, will overcome recoil shyness. Practice with standard velocity fodder as much as possible.

[Jim March]

Well...the recoil isn't just about the ammo, it's about the gun too. Load 22Mags in an NAA minirevolver and they can be horrendous, but in a steel J-class snubbie they're pussycats.

And the "recoil sensitivity" can actually happen in two different ways that I know of:

1) Finger weakness

2) Wrist weakness

See, if it's #1, then grip changes that let you use more of the hand and "spread the pressure" can help. If it's #2, then grips WON'T help as much because recoil flip back there will be unchanged.

Hmmmm. I hope that made sense. There are also differences between "can't handle recoil because of strength issues" and "can't handle recoil because of arthritis, carpal tunnel or some other damage/ailment" and there's different approaches for each.

One really basic question to ask: do they have the forefinger strength and ability to keep the gun still to handle a DA trigger? If so, something like the Taurus steel-frame 22Magnum 8-shot "J-class" snubbies will produce close to zero recoil and still "get 'em through the night" BUT if they can't handle a DA trigger, that won't work, will it?

One way to find out: get ahold of a steel K-Frame 38 or 357, and load it with 148grain target wadcutter 38spls. These will recoil very little in that class gun, and will show you if the person can deal with DA or not. You'll also get a baseline for recoil sensitivity; if they can handle that, and stroke a DA trigger, you're closing in on the final answer, which might be a Ruger SP101 with a mellow 38+P like the Winchester 130grain Supreme round. Or they can go with an S&W or Taurus steel-frame six-shot 32Mag in a J-class platform, similar recoil and horsepower but one more round which is kinda nice :).

If they CAN'T handle a DA trigger, because it's painful to stroke the trigger, you might be able to get somewhere with a very worked-over, minimal spring setup, but then again maybe not.

IF their finger dexterity is good but the DA trigger isn't working, one oddball but cool choice is a Ruger Single Six in 32Mag, esp. with the new Bird's-Head grip.

I feel that the worst-case-scenario "weak and painful hands/wrist" gun is to find a full-size 5" barrel 22LR semi-auto that has a very light slide rack action such as the Browning Buckmark and load it with the fastest 22LR high-velocity HPs you can find that'll still feed (the CCI Stingers are a good bet, the Remington Yellowjacket is excellent but feeds kinda funky). This will let 'em rapid-fire 11 rounds with a short SA trigger and close to zero recoil. You'll get 1,100fps or better from that sort of platform.

The Ruger Mark2 or similar are fine, except the slide rack springs are too tough because the actual moving "slide" is very small and hence needs a big spring.

[Kentucky Rifle]

My wife wants one of those .32 mag "Bird's Head" Rugers. I KNOW she is thinking CCW. I don't know any other way it could be pulled off, except with small of back carry. And with my own injured back that's NEVER healed or even stopped hurting, THAT scares me to death. (Other ideas would be appreciated.) People in Louisville play "tailgater" ALL the time. Many, MANY auto wrecks are caused by "tailgaters".
I swear, if I had one of these guys who drive three inches from my rear bumper out in the country where there would be NO witnesses, I'd be very tempted to stop my truck and put about 20 .223's through his front tires. I won't do it, but that's the senario that runs through my head when, at 60MPH, some doofus is right on my tailgate. :fire:

KR

[braindead0]

I took care of tailgaters when I had my '63 chevy 3/4ton truck. Put a 200# plate steel bumper on the back..anybody tailgating got to find out how quickly it'll slow down when I downshift a couple of gears...

Nobody ever hit me, but everybody backed off... Of course, a primered beat up full size pickup probably scares a lot of people anyway ;-)

[Jim March]

KR: those 32Maggie Rugers are actually fine CCW guns, for those willing to master the SA wheelgun. I'm halfway pondering one myself.

We agree completely on "cross-spine carry".

Building holsters for a lady can be complex, as their shape...well, varies a lot :). And IWB at the side very seldom works at all...fanny pack carry up front somewhere can work well.

I've been pondering a VERY simple type of kydex shoulder rig for a small SA like that Ruger. What you do is, you get ahold of a Qualitas crescent-head ejector rod and fit it on there, which is a simple homebrew proposition with low parts costs. You then take a piece of .125" grade kydex, rectangular, about 3" wide by 7" long and with mildly rounded corners (radius about like a 38cal shell).

Heat the kydex and mold it right over the barrel. You want it "flat as possible" on the same plane as the grip frame. Once hard, drill two holes and use it to "hang" the gun butt-down from a shoulder position. It would "grab" the gun off of the extended-size ejector button.

Yes, the trigger/hammer would be completely exposed. This would be massively unsafe on anything that didn't have a transfer bar!

The draw would be just "grab and yank". Re-holstering would be a two-handed proposition. Once you have the holster molded, you'd have to remove the gun and then use a lighter and gloves to "flare the mouth" where the barrel goes in just a bit, for easier re-holstering.

The actual shoulder straps would be any flat, tough material...leather, whatever.

[M1911]

Well...the recoil isn't just about the ammo, it's about the gun too.Jim is right on the money here. Take a 158 gr .38 +P and fire it out of a 4" K-frame -- very little recoil. Take that very same ammunition, put in a 2" titanium J-frame and you've got an entirely different breed of cat.

[Al Thompson]

Jim that sounds like one of the Null shoulder rigs. Forget the fellows name who makes them, but they work very well.

FWIW, the Buckmark idea has worked for a couple of people I know. Arthritis sets in and really can affect recoil sensitivity. When my Mom gets to that stage, we'll be switching her DS to a Buckmark.

Another note - I tested a FMJ 148 BBWC as loaded by Atlanta Arms and found that penetration was pretty darn good. Low recoil round that (IMHO) would serve as a good working round or SD load.

KF, IMHO the .22 mag is way underated. Bill Jordan liked it and he was no slouch.

[10-Ring]

Years ago when I started shooting, I was intimidated by large revolvers & did not enjoy shooting them. After learning how to properly grip & shoot revolvers, I have enjoyed shooting all calibers of revolvers I've since encontered. The proper grip & technique go a long way.
That said, 38 specials can be quite mild as well as 45 acp.

[Kentucky Rifle]

I didn't even think about hip pouches! She's got some nice ones too. Galco.
Thanks for the idea!

KR

[Poohgyrr]

There are some good ideas already posted. As long as we're considering single action revolvers, we had one family friend who uses a DS, single action with wadcutters. Another choose a Marlin .45 ACP Carbine & 10 round Wilson mags.

Best.......:)

[Jim March]

Agreed re: 22Mag. In fact, using a 4.6" or 5.5" barrel Ruger Single Six, you can REALLY get 'em moving up past 1,400 or 1,500fps, at which point you've still got close to zero recoil plus the light SA trigger. And they can practice cheap with 22LR. The only question is, do they have the thumb dexterity to deal with cocking?

You really have to WATCH the recoil-sensitive shooter during a test session. Arthritis can affect dexterity and recoil sensitivity AND strength all at the same time. So cocking an SA is trouble, stroking a DA trigger is trouble, recoil is trouble :(. Pay attention to such "multiple issue" situations.

That's when a big semi-auto 22LR may be all that's left. The Buckmark is by no means the only such, although it's one of the first I'd look at...S&W used to make a big equivelent with 12rd mags and a slide that was so easy to rack, you could wipe it on your pants leg and do so one-handed. Look for something in this class that has an alloy frame, you want the gun's net weight fairly low so as not to strain arm muscles. I think the Buckmark is available as an alloy frame, isn't it?

Somebody may chime in with "don't trust your life to a 22LR!" but...if that's all that's left, hey, 1,100fps ain't shabby when you have 11 of 'em. Pump 'em in the snotlocker, you'll give 'em something to think about other than grannyrape or whatever :(.

[M1911]

You really have to WATCH the recoil-sensitive shooter during a test session. Arthritis can affect dexterity and recoil sensitivity AND strength all at the same time. So cocking an SA is trouble, stroking a DA trigger is trouble, recoil is trouble . Pay attention to such "multiple issue" situations.I had one student whose largest thumb joints had been replaced due to arthritis. She was definitely a challenging student.

[kannonfyre]

What about .44 special or 9mm in a steel J-frame gun?

How does the recoil compare to 148gr wadcutters from a 4" barrel medium frame S&W?

[Al Thompson]

.44 special out of my N frame is pretty mild. Probably the same with the 5 shot Swith. Not as mild as a .38, TANSTAAFL

The 9mm revolvers had (IIRC) some negatives with the method that was used to secure the cartridges in the cylinder. I wouldn't buy one for SD.

[mashaffer]

My wife wants one of those .32 mag "Bird's Head" Rugers. I KNOW she is thinking CCW. I don't know any other way it could be pulled off, except with small of back carry. And with my own injured back that's NEVER healed or even stopped hurting, THAT scares me to death.

Kentucky;

.32 mag makes sense for the recoil sensitive (you could even shoot .32 S&W Long if needed). Something to consider is going ahead and getting a small frame DA like the H&R Lady Ultra or a J-Frame Smith. You would have to go used but these guns are a little bit more compact than the SA Ruger (though that Ruger is a nice gun) having 2"-3" barrels. They might be easier to conceal and you can fire it SA just as you would the SA.

A possible carry option is the "Smart Carry" which is a Thunderwear knock off of sorts.

[Shane]

Load 22Mags in an NAA minirevolver and they can be horrendous,

My NAA Mini revolver (1 5/8th inch barrel) is easy to shoot with .22 magnum ammo. Recoil is minimal, but it is somewhat noisy. The main problem I have is maintaining a grip, as that little grip slips and it affects accuracy. I don't feel much recoil even with hotter-than-average .22 magnum loads though.

[Jim March]

Shane: 22Mag from a minirevolver is nasty for anybody with weak fingers...and the gun type in general needs a lot of dexterity and is hence a poor choice for those with arthritis.

44spl is psycho from the one "near J-frame" it's ever been produced in (Charter Bulldog). It's also nasty from the TI "K-ish-sized" Tauruses.

9mm from a steel J-class can be very peppy indeed.

But lookit, nobody can say "this caliber is OK" or "this one is too hot", you have to look at the INDIVIDUAL and then the gun! Jeez, in some cases people might *need* full-house 357Mag power levels for some reason, in which case the giant 5-shot Freedom Arms 83-series frame in 357 will be a pussycat 'cuz the gun's so dang big. So even if you can't handle recoil, you could defend against Black Bear.

Figure out what sort of weakness and dexterity limits are going on, how much recoil can they deal with, how much gun weight they can hold out there long enough to shoot, what sort of carry/concealment they're gonna use and go from there. Until you know all that, asking about any particular caliber is just silly.

[Shane]

Shane: 22Mag from a minirevolver is nasty for anybody with weak fingers...and the gun type in general needs a lot of dexterity and is hence a poor choice for those with arthritis.

That makes sense. My fingers are relatively strong and I don't have severe arthritis, so for me the recoil isn't an issue for me.

I understand how it can affect people with arthritis and/or weak fingers.

[Britt]

I think most of the pertinent points have already been laid out, but being pretty recoil shy myself due to a pair of wrist surgeries in the last year I can certainly appreciate the problem. Frankly, what has worked best for me in a CC gun is a K frame Smith with .38's or an ancient 1917 Smith in .45 ACP. Frankly, the biggest detail I've noticed in being able or not to shoot either was how the grip rides (Bisleys are completely impossible for me for instance) and how hot the rounds were loaded. Wadcutters in either caliber are no problem, nor are most SWC's loaded light, but I definitely do not and cannot handle any of the famous/notorious Elmer Keith loads even if I do use his designs in bullets. My only experience with a .44 Spcl at this point has been in a Colt SAA and while it's certainly controllable, the recoil is still more substantial than in my .45 Smith. I imagine that in an N frame this too is lessened. Couse, this could be just that I've always wanted a Model 24. Good luck, BD

[WESHOOT2]

3- or 4" barrel, either medium or heavy profile, medium frame.

That gives you the S&W M13, M15, M65, M67 (just because), or a Ruger Security/Speed/Service Six.

Medium-weight bullet(s) at moderate velocity, then be thinking (and practicing) "shot placement".

[WESHOOT2]

Based on original post, SP101 in 32.

[Kentucky Rifle]

I didn't mean to "hi-jack" another thread with a totally different subject. I just saw ".32 H&R Magnum" and "Birds Head" and went off on my own tangent. Sorry about that. My wife is definitely NOT recoil shy. She carries a light .38 Special snub and very much likes shooting my Glock 27. Some people say the .40 cal G27 has a "bit" of recoil.:) She just likes that Bird's Head Ruger. But having first hand knowledge of a back injury, I was afraid of "small of back" carry. ("Cross-spine carry is what ended Ron Graham's police career. He was sittng in his car one night when a drunk plowed into the rear. His handcuff case was behind his spine. Boom!~Just like that, he was disabled. Constant pain.) Incredibly, from her first trip to the range, my wife has liked everything she's fired. Recoil or noise have no effect on the woman.

KR