[JohnKSa]

I just had a negligent discharge about an hour ago.

I was finishing up a trigger job on a GP100 and wanted to test the results against one I had completed earlier.

I retrieved the other GP from the safe (it's one of the few guns I leave loaded all the time) and brought it to my work area. I opened the cylinder and dumped the rounds out. I let gravity do the work--unfired rounds fall out of their own accord--I didn't work the ejection rod.

I took a quick look at the back of the cylinder as I was closing it and then I took another look at the gun from the right side to check for rims between the cylinder and the breech. That was also obviously a quick look.

I dryfired twice and the third trigger pull fired the gun. One round hadn't fallen out and I hadn't been careful enough to ensure the gun was empty.

I didn't hear the noise and didn't feel the recoil. I just knew something was wrong. After about a second or two it dawned on me what had happened. It also dawned on me that I was almost totally deaf.

My wife came running into the room a few seconds later. She had been two rooms away and had heard the dryfire clicks and then the shot. She knew exactly what had happened and called out to me to see if I was all right. I couldn't hear and so I didn't reply. She told me later that when I didn't reply she couldn't move for a moment--couldn't make her legs take her to the room for fear of what she thought she would find.

In spite of my negligence I had been pointing the gun in a relatively safe direction. Down at about a 45 degree angle toward my work table. I had an inch of phone book on the table where I was doing some cleaning--I use a phone book for solvent intensive jobs. After it gets a good soaking I tear off the top few sheets and it's ready to go again.

The 125gr Federal JHP made a neat hole in the top of the inch of phone book while the muzzle blast shredded a 4" circle of the top few pages around the hole. That spread little bits of paper over the whole room.

The bullet exited the inch or so of phone book leaving an exit hole about an inch around. It must have mostly expanded in the pages.

It traveled down through the table top. 1 to 1.5" entry hole and a 2-3" exit hole. Two main fragments exited the bottom of the table. One small piece hit the table leg and rebounded toward the middle of the room--the second large piece (the bulk of the bullet) made a lead colored groove down the side of the leg and left a smudge on the tile. There was no damage to the tile.

In retrospect I don't know if I can claim full responsibility for where the gun was pointing. I just got lucky. Perhaps more accurately, God was watching out for me.

My wife's ears were already ringing when she came into the room. Mine started ringing about a half hour later when I started to be able to hear more normally. Right now everything sounds like I'm wearing hearing protection but my ears have stopped ringing.

No reponse from the neighbors or the police.

Lisa has been very nice about the situation. I think she was so scared when I didn't immediately answer that she was also intensely relieved to find me unhurt. She may feel differently after she thinks about things for awhile. The fact that the table was one she didn't like and that we got for free is probably helping things a bit--she mentioned that she was looking for a reason to get rid of it anyway. She helped me clean up--it took about an hour to get everything cleaned up and looking normal again.

I just feel stupid. I never got shaky or scared. Just worried initially about the damage and now about my hearing. And kind of sad that I've had an ND--that seems stupid too, but it's definitely part of what I'm feeling.

I still don't believe it's inevitable for a person who handles guns a lot to have an ND. I could have easily avoided this one and I trust that you will learn from my experience.

I've saved the fired cartridge and the largest bullet fragment. I may cut the piece with the bullet hole out of the table and save that too. I want lots of reminders.

Be careful and exercise muzzle control. If you keep the gun pointed safely the worst that can happen is you'll damage your hearing and some stuff--stuff is replaceable.

[Ukraine Train]

Wow. Glad no one was hit, hopefully your hearing will be ok. A good lesson for everyone.

[Tag]

Glad no one was hurt.

I had a similar experience about a year ago... very humbling.

[SMLE]

I had that experence years ago with a Colt Commander in .38 Super. It is certainly an educational one to be sure. I was minding the muzzle, so it was only a hole in the wall, but it still scares the fudge out of me what might have happened. Your hearing will go back to near normal shortly, although you will always have a certain amount of tinnitus, and when it's REALLY quiet, you'll hear that ringing. I didn't patch the hole in the wall for a long time. I left it as a reminder.

[Preacherman]

Welcome to the club, ol' buddy... :(

As a wise man said, "There are two kinds of shooters - those who've had a ND and those who're going to have one!" Learn from your mistake, as I've done, and you'll be a safer shooter for it. Also, give thanks to God for helping you to remember muzzle safety...!

[Brick]

I thought I'd ask what happens to Veterans hearing since they are usually amist a shower of bullets, fragments, richocets, grenades, explosives?

[PinnedAndRecessed]

I still don't believe it's inevitable for a person who handles guns a lot to have an ND.

In my 40+ years of shooting I've had four NDs so far. Three were while hunting and one while target shooting. You might be right. But I think everybody has an ND sooner or later. That's why the number one rule about keeping the weapon pointed in a safe direction at all times is critical.

[Tag]

I thought I'd ask what happens to Veterans hearing since they are usually amist a shower of bullets, fragments, richocets, grenades, explosives?

you might have to ask a little louder so they can hear you :p

seriously though, I think at the time pumping adrenaline lessens the precieved sound.

[pax]

I had mine last weekend while at the range. Gun pointed in a safe direction, no harm done except to my pride (and a slight cut on the end of my left thumb, where the slide bit it on its way past). Definitely didn't mean for the gun to fire just then and felt like an idiot when it did.

pax

[Black Majik]

John, Good to hear you and your family came out well. :)


Preacherman, I've heard that sayin' before,

As a wise man said, "There are two kinds of shooters - those who've had a ND and those who're going to have one!"

Except the version I know is,

"There are three kinds of shooters - those who've had a ND, those who're going to have one, and those who will have one again..."

This is also from a motorcycle saying "There are three types of riders, those who have gone down, those who will go down, and those who will go down again..."


Anyways, I dont want to stray off topic.

Keep safe guys & gals. :)

[Oldoperator]

I lost a good friend that way, he did just what you did, except the S&W 36 he was cleaning was pointed at his chest when it fired. He lived for a couple of weeks and we thought he was going to be OK, when a blood clot broke free and lodged in an artery going to his heart and he died. He told me what had happened with the handgun because he knew I was also a shooter, while I was visiting him at the hospital. I'm glad you are OK this time, except for your ears. You can't check that empty gun too many times. I always count the rounds that I take out of a revolver and then also look at the cylinder. It can happen to anyone, and I'm glad you posted it, it will make me redouble my gun safety efforts.

[homeka45]

Thanks for having the courage to share this scary experience. I had the crahp scared out of me once and it sure made me appreciate the damage a bullet can do. :eek:

[BryanP]

I've had one ND myself, but it was at the range. Gun was pointed downrange and hearing protection was in place. Nobody could tell but me.

You may have to get used to asking people to repeat things. I had my hearing protection slip off at the wrong moment when someone popped off a .45 right next to me. I've noticed I say "Huh? What was that again?" more often now.

I'm glad nothing but your pride was injured.

[71Commander]

Welcome to the club that nobody wants to join.

I had one 30 years ago and as a result, I check for live rounds 3 times at the minimum. Some might consider me compulsive. Scared the pee outta me. Would have shot my shooting buddy, except he was bending over to pick up something off the floor.

[Ryder]

About every ten years for me. Hopefully never again but I won't bet on it since everytime it's happened I intentionally pulled the trigger just as you did.
Muzzle control is no lucky mistake it's a way of life.

[mcmoyer]

I'm so glad to hear that nobody was hurt. Thanks for the post...

[Highpower1]

Thank you for sharing this story. I hope you don't mind. I just finished sharing this story with my wife (whom I'm was just talking about ND's). It really really hit home with her when she saw the picture that you posted.

We are both very glad that your okay.

[juggler]

Welcome to the club, though memebership is not highly sought.

The only shining example in all of these experiences is muzzle direction. Mine was similar to JohnKSa, pointing down at 45 degrees and away when it happened......twice. Each time I cleared and checked :banghead: Riiiiiiiiight.

I now belong to a different club, the one that checks 3 times before pulling the trigger. Last ND was 3 years ago. I intend to do all I can to ensure it IS the last......the heck with Murphy, he works best when you're not paying attention.

Without sounding too touchy/feely, thanks for sharing :cool:

[Bob F.]

I really have a hard time dryfiring or dropping the hammer/striker/firing pin on an empty chamber in the house; even hesitant to do it outside (I live in the country-OK to shoot). No problem shooting a gun I know is loaded. Won't go into why, wife hasn't found the hole yet.

Stay safe (and VERY careful)
Bob

[JuniorG]

Glad your here to tell about it and really glad your wife is able to yell at you if she chooses. IMHO those would be beautiful words to hear after something like that.

Its threads and stories like these that keep reminding me to be careful, learn from others mistakes I guess.

Proud to say that 30+ years I'm still in the 'going to have one' bracket.

[feedthehogs]

As a wise man said, "There are two kinds of shooters - those who've had a ND and those who're going to have one!"

I don't agree with that statement, in fact I think its irresponsible to make such a statement.

It says that if you drive, you will be in an accident.
If your a pilot, you will be in a plane crash.

That's not the case at all.

Other than the rare case of a gun malfunctioning, all ND's can be traced to carelessness as was the case here.
Not properly checking the firearm for live rounds or poor handling.

By making that statement you are saying that all firearms owners are careless.

I'm glad no one was hurt in this incident.

[BigG]

Glad to hear everything turned out OK, well except for your shorts. :uhoh:

[Thumper]

feedthehogs,

It says that if you drive, you will be in an accident.

You've never made a mistake in a car that would have resulted in an accident if you weren't extremely lucky?

That luck doesn't exist when there's a loaded cartridge in the chamber. The analogous "car in the other lane" is always there.

If you've been hard core shooting for over 20 years and you've never had an ND, I'm impressed. You're the first one I've ever heard of, and kudos to you.

John,

That subconscious muzzle control has saved me before too. Try to take it as a learning experience.

[Model520Fan]

I had a similar one a little over 35 years ago, only I wasn't pointing it in a safe direction. It would seem that only divine intervention prevented injury.

I now inspect the cylinder vusually and count rounds every time I empty a revolver. Of course, I am also now MUCH more conscious of what I am getting ready to shoot, and I never handle a weapon surreptitiously (the root cause of my failure to point the weapon in a safe direction).

[Atticus]

I'm glad to hear that you are OK. The hearing difficulties will likely get better over time.

[mfree]

I rememebr the first and only ND I had was the very first shot I ever fired from a firearm. I was 8, out in a field behind my gramma's house wayyyy in the sticks, with my father's old .22 lever. I was shaking a bit, so I relaxed and returned the gun to rest and *pop*. I blew a hole in the dirt about 4" from my left foot.

He was quite "angry" though looking through adult eyes I likely scared the bejeesus out of him. I note he had given me the safety lecture without trigger control... which I quickly got afterwards :)

I've been a nut about safety since. I press-check "empty" guns out of habit even when I'm *not* going to handle them.

Closest thing since was at the range, I took a shot and then quivered a bit, enough to reset the trigger on my CZ75 and accidently put a shot a couple inches above the target... but is an accidental doubletap really an ND? Point to ponder :)

[Kermit911]

I've been shooting for about 4 years now, and I've never had a ND. But this makes me even more cautious now. Thanx for posting it.

[feedthehogs]

Thumper,
The only thing that the work luck should be used in context with firearms is that you were lucky that the big buck came by for you to shoot.

40 years of shooting has produced no ND's and I'm not looking for anyone to be impressed.
I know lots of family members and folks who have never had a ND.

I have been teaching firearms a long time and when I get to the part about handling a firearm, I pull out a picture of a dead child who was shot by their father unloading a gun to emphasize the importance of safe firearms handling.

If that means checking the gun 10 times to make sure its clear, check it 10 times then.

If that means walking thru the woods with the chamber empty to be safe in case of a fall, then do so.

I am in no way calling those who have NDs dumb or stupid.

And as is preached here everyday, carelessness has no place in a firearms owners vocabulary.

John feels bad enough and hopefully the incident will keep it from happening again.
I applaud John for posting as it will possibly prevent another from having a ND.

My only problem was with the statement in the quote.

[eyz]

For those of us who live in suburban or rural texas where guns outnumber humans 5 to 1 this is NORMAL, not safe, but NORMAL. It's a learning experience and 357 mag makes your ears ring for half a day then You get more carefull.

[W Turner]

I have had two, both of which were sheer stupidity. The latest one was the scariest one of all.

I had just bought a SW 686 and the ejector rod needed tightening. I unloaded the gun, fixed the ejector rod, and reloaded the gun before putting it in my safe. Just as I was about to put it in the safe, I realized that I had not dry-fired it to make sure the rod wasn't going to cause a bind. Here is where the screw-up occured...I unloaded the gun and counted 5 (yes, 5) rounds rounds in my hand. Up to this point I had only owned 5-shot jframes, zero 6-shot revolvers. I counted the 5 rounds, thoguht to my self, "OK, the gun is clear", closed the cylinder and commmenced to dry-firing. Two clicks, then an earth shattering BOOM!. I yelled when it happened because I did not have a traditional firing grip. The gun was in my right hand, with the muzzle pointing towards my left and my left hand was under the gun. When it went off, my finger got burned by the gases coming out of the barrel to cylinder gap. My wife was in the next room and my first fear was that I had hit her because she yelled immediately after I did. The bullet (a .357 125gr. Speer Gold Dot) exited our bedroom wall and glanced off of a 4x4 post on our front porch before disappearing completely. The path of the bullet carried it about 1 foot over the head of one of our dogs, who was lying on our bed at the time. It is only through the grace of God that noone was injured and I am not ashamed to say that once I realized everybody was okay, I got the shakes, teared up and told my wife how much I loved her.

Lessons learned:

-Know how many shots your guns hold, and PAY ATTENTION
-Always be conscious of where the muzzle is, I had always thought I did this before. Now I do.
-When you unload a gun, CHECK THE CHAMBER OR CYLINDER......TWICE!

Glad to hear that everyone in your house is OK and that you have learned from your mistake.

W

[rdbrowning]

At work a few years ago we went though a very good safety program. I showed us that almost all "accidents" are mistakes that have one of these four causes:
1) Eyes not on task - looking where the action isn't.
2) Mind not on task - thinking about what you are going to do not what you are doing.
3) In the line of fire - getting in the way of the energy being used.
4) Loss of grip, traction or balance.

In addition, these four causes are usually agrivated by one or more of the following:
1) Rushing,
2) Frustration
3) Fatigue
4) Complacency

When you recognize that one or more of the second four conditions exist, you need to really focus on the first four causes. This will help to greatly REDUCE the probability of an accident.

At first I couldn't figure out why everyone in the company had to spend 8 hours in safety training. After all Engineers are seldom hurt in an industrial accident, it seemed a waste of time. Then it dawned on me that we had just learned to avoid "mistakes" and Lord knows that Engineers get plenty of opportunity to make lots of those. Sure enough, watching for these causes and conditions help you reduce mistakes in all areas of your life.

[Brian Williams]

Was going to dry fire on 10/4/02 and I also let gravity do its work, but like Dolly Parton's bra, Friction worked better.
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=7232

[Gunsnrovers]

By making that statement you are saying that all firearms owners are careless.

No, it says that all firearm owners are human.

[p35]

To answer someone's question, my dad was a range officer (among a lot of other things) in the Army. He's now 70 years old and probably 2/3 deaf in both ears. Most of it hit him long after he got out of the service. Hearing damage builds up and often shows long after the incident.

I've noticed that these days almost all soldiers I see have an ear plug case dangling from the BDU blouse. I think the military has gotten a lot more careful than it used to be on this issue, but too late for Dad.

[dsb]

John,

If you can, get to a doc as soon after as possible. I remember hearing that if you can get treatment within a certain time frame (24h perhaps?) with prescribed steroids, it can greatly reduce the long-term impact of the ear damage.

Glad to hear that you are okay and I hope that your wife is recovered from the shock as well.

EDIT: Here is some more info I ran across http://www.medicinenet.com/noise_induced_hearing_loss_and_its_prevention/article.htm

[Thumper]

If you can, get to a doc as soon after as possible. I remember hearing that if you can get treatment within a certain time frame (24h perhaps?) with prescribed steroids, it can greatly reduce the long-term impact of the ear damage.

Geez. Do you people hunt? His hearing will be fine. Yes, every unprotected gunshot will cause some tiny amount of damage, but come on... :rolleyes:

One discharge does not deafness make.

[Intune]

A .243 in a little room will get your attention too. Thanks brother-in-law. :eek: The ejector failed to catch the last round as he was unloading and he didn't count. He got rid of the last round alright, he put it through the window. Ouch.

[nomadboi]

I've been thinking about getting some snap caps, partly so I'm not dry-firing the gun, and partly so I've got another step in the ritual of making sure the gun is safe before pulling the trigger. Anybody else use anything like that?

[Carlos Cabeza]

Glad to hear :D you're OK and no one was hurt 'cept the table nobody liked anyway. Count those rounds and double, triple check before proceeding with a funtion test. I have had two ND's that I can recall. One while hunting, I jumped from a high creek bank to the lower opposite side ~ 8ft. drop w/ finger inside trigger guard. Shock from jump caused me to pull trigger. Fortunately, I had two hands on the rifle with it pointed up at steep angle. The other was dry firing practice in the living room with the full magazine on the coffee table. I thought I was done and charged the weapon and set it on the table in front of me. I had a brain malf. and tried rapid deployment again and shot a hole in the front door about head height. The ex-wifey got torqued about that but I made it into a peep hole but a bit off center and low left.

[BHPshooter]

John,
NDs are hard to deal with. Don't be too hard on yourself... when I had my ND, I sunk into a deep depression (partly because of beating myself up about it) that lasted for longer than a month. It was not pleasant.

People are human. We make mistakes. Don't dwell on the stupid mistake, just learn from it and move on.

I will have to make a "lesson collage" like Brian did... I still have the hole in my bedroom door, and the slug is still in the stud on the wall.

Wes

[USP45usp]

I am overly paranoid when it comes to unloading guns when I wish to dry fire, work on, etc..

I do this mainly due to the people on the boards that post their ND's so I can learn from them :).

Mine was when I was pre-cocking my GP-100 and doing the "draw down" on the target when I pressed the trigger while it was still pointing up in the air.

Wayne

[Ex-MA Hole]

By making that statement you are saying that all firearms owners are careless.



No. We're human.

[Black Snowman]

I've made my share of dumb mistakes. My big one was not in handling but in a batch of reloads that resulted in a totalled FAL and some minor shrapnel in various non-vital parts of my body. I'm very careful but we can all make mistakes. I use the dead FAL as a window prop in my reloading room so that I can still get some good out of it and as a reminder to not just read but UNDERSTAND the labels ;)

[Greybeard]

' Glad you and The Wife are OK. Good, honest post. Welcome to the gotta-see-the-lips-when-they-talk club. ;)

[spacemanspiff]

i've only witnessed a ND, still trying to keep my junk together to prevent myself from ever having one.

i know that i'm not as anal about it as some are, and the most likely place i'll wind up having a ND will be while i'm sitting on the john here at work. dry firing makes for a great time-passer when i'm bored. but i do make sure i am pointing the muzzle at an upward angle so if it does happen, the bullet would have to take a sharp angle after going through two layers of sheetrock.

[JohnKSa]

Coming up on 24 hours later I have a few more observations.

Thanks for the kind responses--I want to make it clear that I'm not posting this for reassurance but in the sincere hope that others will learn from what I did wrong. I do feel bad about what has happened but that doesn't mean that people should refrain from speaking plainly, or even bluntly, as they discuss this.

My hearing is much improved--I can hear nearly normally from my right hear--the left ear still feels stopped up. I did get some steroid therapy--can't tell if it's helping but it's definitely not hurting.

Even one round was enough to put significant smoke in the air. The smoke detectors didn't go off, but I cleared my nose later and there were definitely traces of smoke residue.

I'm still of the opinion that the discharge was purely the result of negligence and could have been easily prevented. There was no excuse for being so sloppy about checking the chambers.

Perhaps the muzzle control was subconscious but I think that's not really correct. I have dryfired in the past while pointing in much less fortuitous directions. Not ever AT someone, but definitely in directions which would have caused a LOT more damage. I think that's over with now.

This is going to sound like an excuse--but bear with me--it's not. The gun I discharged was my first gun. I have never shot .38s in that gun--only .357s. In over 10 years, it has never failed to drop all the cartridges when I opened the cylinder. HOWEVER, I recently lent it to a friend who was considering the purchase of a similar pistol. He fired it quite a bit using .38s which left the inevitable fouling rings. I cleaned the rings out pretty well but didn't sweat getting the chambers completely back to pristine. I suspect that the reason that the one round stuck was due to the fouling rings. That's not to shift the blame or even to try to partially blame him--it was clearly ALL my fault. What I want to point out is this: I COUNTED on things being exactly the same as they always had been instead of honestly checking to make sure.

Check & double check. Triple checking isn't stupid. DON'T let your checks become perfunctory. If you can't give your whole attention to a firearm don't pick it up. And don't EXPECT or ASSUME anything--check to make SURE.

Safe Shooting!

John

[taliv]

one of the things i do is always keep a chamber flag in when i'm screwing around with guns indoors. (or out, for that matter)

the chamber flag for revolvers is nice because you can dry fire with it.

for rifles, i have to take it out, but at least i have positive indication that there's nothing in the chamber that could go boom.


my phobia is about barrel obstructions. in addition to normal safety rules, i'm freakishly obsessed with looking all the way down the barrel to make sure there's nothing in it before i shoot.

the downside of this is that i have to look down the barrel. i usually stick my finger in the chamber and reflect the light off of it so i can visually check.

but to the average onlooker, i'm sure i look like an idiot, as all they notice is me staring down the barrel.

[JuniorG]

my phobia is about barrel obstructions. in addition to normal safety rules, i'm freakishly obsessed with looking all the way down the barrel to make sure there's nothing in it before i shoot.


HAHA and I thought I was the only one with this 'phobia'

I'll be at the range ready to pull the trigger and the thought runs through my mind, did I check that bbl? run a rod down it?

I'll unload my gun and check it before I go any further.

[rkt88edmo]

I'm curious about the concept of counting rounds in order to determine whether a firearm is unloaded. Is that common among wheelgunners? It sounds like counting relies upon your knowing what your firearm's capacity is, how many cartridges you loaded, and finally how many you fired.

Would the procedure of knowing how to unload that particular action followed by visual and physical chamber checks be a better mental process to follow?


I also had an 'on-target' training ND. I let my finger forward after the shot and mentally chastised myself thinking, "I should have followed through and held the trigger to the rear." Lo and behold, my finger moved the trigger to the rear, where it should have been, and put another hole in the target.

[Hawkmoon]

My great-grandfather died when I was very young so I don't remember ever meeting him, although I'm told I did. Never saw a picture of him without a beard. He wore a beard because before I was born he shot himself through the jaw while cleaning an "empty" gun.

My generation was well-schooled in safe handling.

[eldomatic]

John,

I know how you feel.

Thirty-four years ago when I was 16 I blew a big hole in the ground about 6" in front of my right foot with a .30-30 deer rifle. About five minutes later, a lever action rifle another hunter had leaning up against a cabin tipped over and discharged through a wall. Everyone in the camp was shocked, scared & mad but also sobered by the object lesson in gun safety.

Whenever I pick up a firearm or am even around firearms I think of that time and remember what might have occured. A moment's inadvertence can lead to tragedy.

Don't be too hard on yourself. Consider yourself lucky that you've had a learning experience that you'll never forget and which will therefor ultimately contribute to your safety.

[Stinkyshoe]

I'm glad no one was hurt. This a good lesson to me. I think that it is easy to get complacent, especially if we handle guns everyday. The 4 rules apply big time here. I think there should be a fifth though...If you are going to dry fire practice, check the chamber atleast 3 times, and stick your finger in the chamber and look again. I thought I was crazy for checking so much, and I glad to see others are the same.

I will add from several scary close calls I've had that it is important to select fellow shooters who realize the absolute importance of being very careful. I am going to change my standards as far as who I go to the range with and hunt with, as well as let handle my guns. Makes me frickin' nervous when the muzzle of my "empty" gun is pointed right at my chest. Don't assume other people to be as competant as your are when you hand them a gun. Keep your eyes on others when not shooting. Don't be concerned about offending anyone by telling them they need to be more careful, as hot lead through your flesh is a whole lot more offensive. If someone can't stand to be corrected or warned, go to a new range, or get some new friends. Sorry for the rant, I am just realization more and more how safety in my little world is my responsibility.
Be safe,
Ss

[El Tejon]

Glad you are O.K.

Everyone, please, please, please learn from this. I know I have said it over and over again until you are sick to death of me saying this, but--use your finger!!!

Check with the eyes and your finger. Remember the Four Rules even when dry firing. Have a designated target for your dry fire--sand bag, etc.

[torpid]

This "ND's are inevitable" attitude (which I strongly disagree with) is just great P.R. for the anti-gun lobby.

"Beware when gun owners say that thier gun is only a "tool". What they aren't telling you is that they admit in private that it is inevitable for them (the tool user) to misuse that tool and unexpectedly shoot it at least once in their lives- maybe many times! Do you feel safe knowing that your neighbor may have an "oops" moment next to your child's window? And how about these self admittedly accident-prone gun owners carrying their potentially discharging weapons with them amongst the general public?!!!"

:barf:

[Clean97GTI]

ND's are the worst. Makes you feel like a cornered animal.

The first one I expierienced (can't quite claim fault though) was one I was a kid. An older friend was taking guns out of his safe and cleaning/lubing them. He always kept a shotgun loaded just in case.
Well, he picked up a shotgun (he owns several) and shouldered it. I looked away at the table we were sitting at. A moment later...BOOM!!!
He took a nice chunk out of the fireplace in his living room. Thankfully it was made of rock and mortar. He managed to cover it without getting into trouble.

I've never had a ND myself after several years of shooting. Hope I never do.

[CAPTAIN MIKE]

...are the ones where we have a 'close call' but nobody gets hurt. I'm thankful no one was injured, and that your wife found you safe but temporarily stunned and dumbfounded at the Negligent Discharge.

Anyone can "second guess" someone else who's made an error in judgment or safety, but the rule about pointing in a safe direction is only made that much more clear by this incident.

Let's all take this incident as a reminder to re-think what we often take for granted.

[Atticus]

"This "ND's are inevitable" attitude (which I strongly disagree with) is just great P.R. for the anti-gun lobby."

Torpid - I'd agree that it is not "inevitable"...but considering we are all human and subject to brainfarts and other failures, it is highly possible that ND's may occur. ND's often occur (and hopefully most of them will ) at the range, or in the field, when the barrel is pointed in a safe direction. Those count also. No one is saying they will invievitably happen at the mall, in the bedroom, or elsewhere.
Discussing these events and admitting that even very experienced shooters can and do experience ND's, is NOT ammo for the anti's. Burying one's head in the sand and ignoring reality, is.
As El Tejon has stated so many times...the important thing, is that not more than one of the 4 rules be violated simultaneously.

[The Grand Inquisitor]

I've been into shooting (I guess what less interested people would call "hard core") for only about 1.5 years now, but it's something I certainly hope to avoid.

The first gun I ever bought was a Steyr M9 in 9mm, and while I have moved on into more elaborate things (mostly rifles) my favorite safety feature ever found on a firearm is on the little Steyr. Unlike Glock, Steyr loaded their autoloaders with safety features (not intrusive) like the positive action trigger (which is very nice) but the piece I appreciate most is that whenever a round is in the chamber, there is a small button on the rear of the pistol that sticks out to let you know.

It's not much, but it saved me from one accident that could have turned ugly. Of course every ND is a result of human error, but are most other things that happen; I would make a gamble that the shooters that make up this board make up a large portion of the most dedicated and safety concious shooters in the country, yet with that in mind, there still are quite a few ND's-----????? happens.

[kcslim]

Glad to hear nobody got hurt.

[Intune]

The "rules" are ALL important but where that barrel is pointing when you pull that trigger MAY be the most important of all. Please be careful out there my brothers & sisters.

[El Rojo]

To expand on the on going debate on whether an ND is inevitable or not, I would like to make a clarification.

I don't think they are inevitable, but I would be very warry of someone who says they would never have one. I too used to think people who shot themselves or had gun accidents were morons. Then I had an ND and suddenly I didn't want to call myself a moron or idiot anymore. My ND was a great learning experience and just as importantly, very humbling. I was 21 at the time and had been shooting guns since I was six, so I felt so stupid to be this "gun expert" and make such a stupid mistake. I would hope everyone would recognize that an ND could happen to you. No one is perfect. However, taking that fact seriously and realizing how important it is to double check things will make you safer. Just don't fool yourself into thinking you are too smart to have an ND. You will be humbled.

You can never check your chamber enough. Muzzle control is also very important when dry firing. Learn and live!

[JohnKSa]

Thumper,

I discharged a rifle (AK--16"bbl) outside without hearing protection once--forgot to put on my muffs. It was unpleasant.

This was a full load Federal 125gr JHP .357 MAG from a 4" bbl revolver discharged inside. It was much, MUCH, MUCH worse. It was so loud that it didn't even register as a noise--just like going instantly deaf. My wife was two rooms away and her ears rang for the rest of the night and were still giving her slight problems the next day.

My hearing has not improved significantly for the last couple of days--it still feels like I have something stopping up my left ear, and I can tell I'm not hearing as well as I used to out of my right. I'll post again if there are any major changes.

[goon]

Glad you are OK. I hope your hearing comes back but it might not. Loud noises like that are hell on your hearing (I have hearing damage from a military training accident).
I still have a hissing noise in both ears but I don't really hear it unless I stop and think about it.

It is a good reminder. I have had ND's too although all but one have been at the range. I had a S&W 686 that was getting out of time once. It would misfire about twice in 50 rounds. I was dry firing the "empty" gun at the backstop when it went off. Gave me a bit of a scare.
I have also accidentally touched off rounds before I was ready to shoot.
My crowning screw up though was the round that I sent through the fender of my dad's Ford Bronco when I was about 14. Thankfully I did have enough common sense to point it in a safe direction (away from the house). Dad figured that the scare it gave me was enough punishment, and that it was also partly his fault since he had accidentally left a round in the chamber and then told me to get the rifle, so he refrained from killing me.

Say what you like, but I fear an ND. I fear it enough to carry with an empty chamber, and I fear it enough that I check, recheck, and recheck again.
Anyone who thinks they can't have an ND should think about it a little harder.

[P95Carry]

John ... bit late to the thread but - glad in essence you are Ok, even if hearing seems to have suffered ...hopefully a temporary state.

I for one appreciate your honesty in posting about it - it is a salutary lesson and one for all to learn by. Not everyone would own up!!

I have had 2 ND's over a long shooting career - one was a bit like Pax .. sorta, on the line .. fired too soon from low ready. No harm .. just hurt pride.

The second I described long ago - suffice to say, shotgun, thinking clear - no ''click'' .. almighty ''bang'' ..... having it pointed safe was the saver .. and IMO is the one rule that can always avert an actual disasater.

We can all become careless, complacent even .. only answer is the double check ... and ''don't assume'' .... well, correction .... DO assume ... a firearm is always loaded!

Good luck with the ears .. hopefully they will recover for most part .. please let us know later on.

[mec360]

Thanks to John for posting this; it has had the intended sobering effect on me.

I've been shooting regularly for 25 years, but have never had an ND. I came really really close once with an autopistol with no mag but one in the chamber, but the little safety voice said STOP and CHECK just in time...

I was once shooting with a friend when he had an ND. Just me and him at the range. He was practicing for IDPA and was having enormous trouble with his 1911; it was consistently failing to extract fired cases and consequently he was left with a spent case in the chamber after every shot. He kept shooting by dropping the magazine and manually racking the slide several times after each shot until the spent case ejected. Somehow (I was not, thankfully, very close to him), he failed to (1) drop the mag (2) notice that the spent case had extracted and that a live cartridge got into the chamber (3) keep his finger off the trigger (4) keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction. rack rack BANG! If downrange is north, the muzzle was pointed west. Thankfully, I was to the south, and there was no one else there ... Among the many lessons here is never to keep shooting when your gun is malfunctioning - figure out what is wrong and cure the problem first. Another thing that has stuck with me is how fast it happened. It took a lot longer to type that story than it did for the event to happen.

[TonyB]

I haven't had a ND..but one day at the range a buddy asked to see my Airweight,he had just bought it's twin....as I took it out of my holster and handed it to him,I said" watch out it's loaded"....he had his ear phones on and didn't hear me.....he promptly pulled the trigger and *bang*....luckily he had it pointed down range.....now I ALWAYS open the cylinder and /or clean the gun when handing it over,or taking one from someone else....everyone be safe :cool:

[St. Gunner]

Hmmmm.... Ok i'll fess up... I have a mounted 8pt buck on the wall here at the house with a .270 hole in his neck. I was dryfiring one afternoon before going deer hunting and had been just lifting the bolt and not chambering a round. For some reason I worked the action and chambered a round and put one right into the deer. Bullet went through 14" of styrofoam deer mount and a 1/4" piece of plywood, blew through a 4" wall with 1/2 sheetrock, ripped a foot long gash in the ceiling of that room and lodged in the 2x4" headers over the next room. I was home alone at the time cept for one cat, and one house dog. I had to clean up messes from both of them plus the styrofoam spread all over the room behind the deer head. When asked why I don't repair the mount I simply reply it is a good reminder of what being stupid for a half second can lead to.

[DRZinn]

I thought I'd ask what happens to Veterans hearing since they are usually amist a shower of bullets, fragments, richocets, grenades, explosives?

Tinnitis.

[Battlespace]

I remember a Lt having the classic discharge at a clearing barrel outside the arms rooms. He removed the M1911 from his holster, pulled the slide back and inspected the chamber and let the slide go forward, dropped the magazine out and then pulled the trigger. He almost dropped the gun and the look on his face is worth 1,000 words.

[jrhead75]

My only ND was 25 years ago. Complacency+Routine+Distraction=me trying to tear down and clean my 1911 with one in the chamber. I remembered to point the muzzle away from my face about 5 secs before it went off. It was a near enough thing that the bullet left a shallow furrow along the back of the last 3 fingers on my left hand (still have a scar on my pinkie).

That was over 25 years ago, and it still makes me break into a sweat just thinking about it. To this day I cannot pull a trigger to dry fire without being absolutely sure that the muzzle is pointed down and in a safe direction, no matter how many times I've checked for empty. I mean that literally...I actually cannot bring myself to do it.

IMO, the point to these stories isn't that an ND is inevitable, but that they happen to skilled, intelligent, experienced people and not just newbies and goofballs. All it takes is a microsecond's slip of concentration.

Hair raising stuff! Glad you're okay John. Hope the hearing gets better.

[Denver]

Before I owned any firearms, back when rocks were children and dirt was a new invention, I disected a shotshell that I had found in the pheasant hunting fields near my home. I had a rudimentary understanding of the device and thought it would be interesting to fire the primer after gutting the artfact of it's "Truly Dangerous" innards.

With my brother in attendance to witness my brilliance, I mounted the empty shell in a vise in the unfinished, concrete basement. (Note the lack of acoustical accomodations!) I placed the point of a ten penny nail on the middle of the primer and tapped the nail with a hammer.

I was distinctly dissapointed that nothing seemed to have happened. I opened my mouth to express my dissatisfaction with our little experiment, only to discover that I could not even hear my own voice and that my brother could not hear his own voice when he tried to tell me that he couldn't hear me!!!!!

Even primers alone are potent noise-makers in confined spaces.

Thank God neither of our hearing suffered NOTICEABLE long-term effects!

JohnKSa, thank God for your "safe" passage throught this incident.

God has looked after ME in WAY too many similar circumstances! Thank you for your honest post!

[MAUSER88]

I had one with my SAR 1. Put mag. in place and pulled the bolt carrier to the rear and let it slam home when BLAME!!. It chambered and fired with no finger on the trigger. Wisely I always point the muzzle towards the ground about 6ft. in front of me while doing this so no damage at the range.

[Matt G]

JohnKSa, thanks so much for sharing your miserable experience with us. Hopefully everyone here can take something valuable away from this experience.

--Matt

[J Miller]

JohnKSa,

Sorry to hear that you have just joined the not so exclusive club. Glad you are OK, and wern't hurt.

Like the previous posters said, I've been there and done that, and have the scars to prove it.
To say the least I've learned the hard way about muzzel control. It's been a very long time since my ND, and I hope to make it even longer. But I consider all, and I mean ALL my guns as loaded all the time and don't dry fire them except after cleaning or at the range.
When cleaning I make absolutly sure that there is no ammo in the gun.

I don't want any more scars. Physically, emotionally, or furniturely.

It's surprising what a gunshot up close to your head in an inclosed area will do to your ears. Like you said, no concious sound, just instant deafness. I know this feeling only too well. And my head is constantly full of screaching locusts because of it (tinnitus). Hopefully your hearing will eventually clear up. But that left ear is suffering severe nerve damage. And it's cumulative. Every future unprotected shot will make it worse.

Take care.

Joe