[Mad Man]

On August 7, 2002, Tamara wrote (http://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1117096&postcount=16):


Jart,
Probably the cheapest way into the world of full-auto is either a MAC-10/11 or a Vector/Group Industries Uzi; figure $1,500-$2,000 for the former or $2,500-$3,000 for the latter if you shop around. (Plus the $200 tax stamp, of course...)



Last night, when I ran into a Class III dealer I know, I asked about the Vector Uzi, and was told they are now $7,000+.

Just when I finally had $4,000 available for one, which is what I was told in January.

I understand why prices have been rising steadily since 1986, but why the extreme price increase in the past year?

[wasrjoe]

I was told by a man who owned one (and let me shoot his :D) that they can be had for 5k. I'm not sure how long ago he bought his, though. Hope that helps a little.

[Hkmp5sd]

I think it is because up until about a year or so ago, Vector was still had a supply of their registered conversions in stock, which was somewhat regulating the price. Now that they are all gone, the prices are based on the open market.

[possenti]

I know very little about Class III weapon laws and regs, but would it be cheaper to buy a semi Uzi, and convert it yourself - with proper BATF approval?

[wasrjoe]

It would be, but you can't do that. Well, technically, if you're a corporation you could, but you would actually have to BE a corporation that makes money and such.

But, long answer short, you can't do that.

[Kenneth Lew]

I know very little about Class III weapon laws and regs, but would it be cheaper to buy a semi Uzi, and convert it yourself - with proper BATF approval?

Yes, you can convert a semi-automatic Uzi yourself with a REGISTERED BOLT (no more civilian production after 1986). Registered bolts have been running about $3,500 to $5,000 in the past few months. Registered bolts are the least desireable with the Uzi crowds, but think of it this way, you can always swap (not easily) the bolt between full size Uzis.

It would be, but you can't do that. Well, technically, if you're a corporation you could, but you would actually have to BE a corporation that makes money and such.

But, long answer short, you can't do that.

Unless you are a Class II/SOT (whatever setup sole-prop, corp, LLC), that is illegal.

Kenneth Lew

[Kenneth Lew]

I understand why prices have been rising steadily since 1986, but why the extreme price increase in the past year?

Published price increases occur due to the following factors:
1. Supply & Demand (people are justing finding out machine guns are obtainable)
2. Politics
3. Affordability
4. Coolness (a submachine gun that was proben in combat).

Kenneth Lew

[Valkman]

You're not going to touch a FA Uzi for $3k. I bought a NIB Vector in July for $5500, which may have been $500 too much, but they're going for $6k already. In the "What would you buy for $4k" thread someone said an Uzi, but that ain't happening. I've since added a supressor and have over $7k in it including the $400 in taxes! Still have to buy .22 and .45 conversions, a drum mag and a case. :)

[TheOtherOne]

I get really depressed everytime I see the prices.

UZI's $7,500 http://www.impactguns.com/store/group_ind_uzi.html
MAC-10's $3,200 http://www.impactguns.com/store/mac10_9mm.html
M11/9 $3,400 http://www.impactguns.com/store/m11_full_auto.html

Since those are the cheapies and "a good way to get into the machine gun sport", I've pretty much conceded that I'll never own anything full-auto.

:(

[bbaerst]

Heh, it seems like machine guns are a wise investment! :)

If I had about $20,000 and was eager to make a killing over maybe 25 years, sounds like buying up these submachine guns would be the ticket.

EDIT: Wow, pun not intended.

[CleverNickname]

Heh, it seems like machine guns are a wise investment! :)

If I had about $20,000 and was eager to make a killing over maybe 25 years, sounds like buying up these submachine guns would be the ticket.

Maybe, but there's two possible problems. First, Congress could pass a law banning machinegun possession or just ban future transfers. It's not very probable with Congress' current makeup, but it could happen. Second, the Stewart case has the potential (a remote potential, but still possible) of invalidating 922(o). In both cases, the value of a machinegun would be negatively affected compared to the current inflated value.

IMHO, if you're just going to buy a machinegun to sit in your safe as an investment, don't. There's better investments out there and you won't be in competition with people who want to buy machineguns to actually shoot them.

[dukeofurl]

Heh, it seems like machine guns are a wise investment! :)

If I had about $20,000 and was eager to make a killing over maybe 25 years, sounds like buying up these submachine guns would be the ticket.

EDIT: Wow, pun not intended.

Friend of mine bought 20 registered Fleming sears ($200 each) + transfer in 1980.

Everyone thought he was crazy.

He still has all of them.

[Byron Quick]

"Heh, it seems like machine guns are a wise investment! "

Before you do, it might be a good idea to talk to folks who bought pre-ban weapons as 'investments.':D


I've got a total of $925 in an IMI Uzi, registered receiver. That includes the cost of the semi-automatic Uzi, the conversion by SWD, and the transfer tax. That seems like a screaming return on the 'investment.' The fact that the $925 is 1986 dollars knocks down the actual return quite a bit. And if I took my 'profits' on my 'investment' then I wouldn't have an Uzi to shoot, now would I?

[Hkmp5sd]

There is a major difference in the MG ban and AW ban. The AW ban had a built in sunset. That meant you could play the odds that the ban would or would not be extended. IMO, the MG ban is eternal. So it is not as risky to buy MGs and sit on them a few years and then sell them at a considerable profit.

I also don't think we will ever see a complete ban on machineguns or on MG transfers. It is not needed. In another few decades, the low end MACs will be going for $20,000 and M16s & MP5s will be pushing $100,000. The cost itself will prevent most Americans from ever owning a machinegun.

[Exposure]

Those of you ready to buy a full auto wait just one more month. Depending on the outcome of the Stewart case there is a good chance that BATF will be legally obliged to approve Form 1's on homemade MG's once again. Do some research on subguns or stergewehr and you will find what I am talking about.


If this happen the homemade guns will not be transferable so once made it is yours forever, but who cares! And before this turns into a giant flame fest on me there is a GOOD chance that this will come to pass. I hope, I hope, I hope!!!

By the way transferables will still be worth the ridiculous prices they are today as that supply is finite and can be sold to individuals who posess the cash to buy them.

[Stand_Watie]

What about Thompson's? What kind of price range are they in? I know of one and was wondering if I'd be wasting my time asking the owner to let me have a go with it :D

[Hkmp5sd]

Depending on the outcome of the Stewart case there is a good chance that BATF will be legally obliged to approve Form 1's on homemade MG's once again.
I thought the Stewart case made homemade machineguns legal (in the 9th district) without having to be registered with ATF. Only firearms moved in interstate commerce are regulated by the feds.

The problem with this is that most states that allow machineguns have the law written stating that only machineguns registered with ATF are legal in the state. That means that while possibly legal under federal law, it would still be illegal under state law.

And you can be sure that the other states will rapidly close that loophole should the decision stand.

What about Thompson's?
I think they are currently $15,000-$20,000 for common models.

[Stand_Watie]

I think they are currently $15,000-$20,000 for common models.

Ouch. I guess I should consider myself lucky he let me even hold it :what:

[Exposure]

I thought the Stewart case made homemade machineguns legal (in the 9th district) without having to be registered with ATF. Only firearms moved in interstate commerce are regulated by the feds.

The problem with this is that most states that allow machineguns have the law written stating that only machineguns registered with ATF are legal in the state. That means that while possibly legal under federal law, it would still be illegal under state law.

And you can be sure that the other states will rapidly close that loophole should the decision stand.


Unfortunately the whole case is so convoluted that I kind of doubt any good will come from it. I am in hopes however that for machine gun owners and those who would like to it works out favorably.

There has been much discussion lately regarding this on some MG boards. If anyone is interested I will hunt up the links and post them. It makes for some very interesting reading. Several lawyers who frequent the MG message boards have been able to dumb it down for people like me who don't understand all the legalese. Anyway let me know if anyone is interested and I will find the most recent discussions on the case.

[PMDW]

I'm interested in reading the comman man, english version. Tried to read legalese, made my head hurt.

[HEiST]

I will dedicate my free time besides documentary plans to lobby to make sure the people who buy MGs as investments get royally screwed. :fire: Obviously their interest is in post 1986 / imported MGs NEVER being legal.

I want to see that change, and all of them whine and cry because the gun they bought for 10k is suddenly worth 3k or even less- instead of skyrocketing to 40k.

Either that or I'd like to see a law forbidding NFA owners to sell their weapons for more than original retail price (adjusted for inflation) plus 15%. Woo would that put a nice brown one in their cheerios.

[Valkman]

I will dedicate my free time besides documentary plans to lobby to make sure the people who buy MGs as investments get royally screwed. :fire: Obviously their interest is in post 1986 / imported MGs NEVER being legal.

I want to see that change, and all of them whine and cry because the gun they bought for 10k is suddenly worth 3k or even less- instead of skyrocketing to 40k.

Either that or I'd like to see a law forbidding NFA owners to sell their weapons for more than original retail price (adjusted for inflation) plus 15%. Woo would that put a nice brown one in their cheerios.

Whoa - just because you can't afford one you wish bad things on those who can? Nice, real nice. :barf:

[HEiST]

One of my parents has expressed interest in an NFA weapon. It's not that they're out of our reach (out of MY reach, I have to earn all my own money)- well, maybe an electrically operated minigun is.

I'm saying that the INTEREST of those who buy to invest is for prices to rise- meaning that inside, they don't want the ban to go away.

Meaning they are not our friends.

Think about it. THEY WANT AND NEED POST86 MGS TO STAY ILLEGAL.

HOW is that a good thing? For THEM it is. For freedom, it sure isn't.

Sellouts.

[Exposure]

I will dedicate my free time besides documentary plans to lobby to make sure the people who buy MGs as investments get royally screwed. :fire: Obviously their interest is in post 1986 / imported MGs NEVER being legal.

I want to see that change, and all of them whine and cry because the gun they bought for 10k is suddenly worth 3k or even less- instead of skyrocketing to 40k.

Either that or I'd like to see a law forbidding NFA owners to sell their weapons for more than original retail price (adjusted for inflation) plus 15%. Woo would that put a nice brown one in their cheerios.

Yeah, that would be great, instead of the government having the right to tell us what firearms we can or can't buy they could also control the prices as well. :rolleyes: Maybe while they are at it the could step in on collector cars, artwork, antiques, real estate, baseball cards, etc. etc. etc.......

Owning a class III weapon is not cheap. Get used to it.

Those of us who buy the weapons for investment purposes simply are spending wisely and getting the chance to enjoy said investment at the same time. So in your eyes we should be punished for this?

[Valkman]

Well, it is what it is and it's not likely to change anytime soon. Someone can't sell a gun for way more than it's worth unless someone is willing to buy it.

I just want approval for my Uzi so I can start shooting it!

[TheOtherOne]

I would rationize it as being for investment purposes because both myself and my family would think I was crazy for spending thousands of dollars for a hunk of 20 year old metal.

Of course, considering I could never help myself from constantly buying ammuntion to keep it well fed, it wouldn't be much of an investment. :D

[Valkman]

I haven't seem where new Uzi's command anymore money than used ones. My NIB one won't be NIB long though. :)

[HEiST]

I stand by what I said. No one with over 20 grand invested in a machinegun can ever truly support repeal of the 86 and other laws- oh, they might say they do, but if magically they had a secret choice between a) having the unconstitutional bans repealed and b) having it stay and the guns they got getting even more valuable, with no one ever knowing what they chose to make happen, they'd choose b. No exceptions. Greed and elitism cloud minds.

A) Buy to invest and profit obscenely
B) Support the 2nd amendment
C) Not be a hypocrite

Pick two.

[Hkmp5sd]

Two of my MGs are currently in the $15,000 range and I'd be delighted to see the '86 ban go away. I don't give a hoot about the money. There are a truck load of machineguns I want and the .gov won't let me have any of them.

[HEiST]

The people who don't give a hoot about the money are the good ones.

[Exposure]

I stand by what I said. No one with over 20 grand invested in a machinegun can ever truly support repeal of the 86 and other laws- oh, they might say they do, but if magically they had a secret choice between a) having the unconstitutional bans repealed and b) having it stay and the guns they got getting even more valuable, with no one ever knowing what they chose to make happen, they'd choose b. No exceptions. Greed and elitism cloud minds.

A) Buy to invest and profit obscenely
B) Support the 2nd amendment
C) Not be a hypocrite

Pick two.



How is making a wise investment going against the 2nd amendment? Is it my fault the weapons are going up in value? :confused:

You claim to be such a strong 2nd amendment supporter yet you want the government to control gun prices? And then you say MG owners are hypocrites? "Uh hello, pot? Yeah this is kettle................."


According to your profile you're not even old enough to own one anyway, so why all the angst? Start saving now and when you turn 21 you can plunk down the cash and get your own.

There is nothing I would like better than for the 86 ban to be lifted. I would love to have a ton more class III weapons. But until the time it gets lifted or form 1's start getting approved I am going to continue enjoying my weapons without the least bit of guilt for buying at the right time. :D

P.S. I have nowhere NEAR $20,000 grand invested.

[HEiST]

*tap tap*

The needle on the irony detector is a lil off for ya :P

I don't seriously want the Gov't to control prices. Although if they're going to artificially control something by banning additions to the market pool, they may as well take steps to ensure the market pool retains a reasonable price.

Like I said, people who shoot for fun and the joy of owning a full auto weapon are fine. It's the people who plan on making millions by buying up the HKs, etc, and waiting ten years who stand to lose a fortune if any of the bans expire.

They're the ones who deep down want the ban to stay- because it's going to make them money. :barf:

[Beren]

C'mon guys, show a little Christmas spirit. Maybe the Supreme Court will leave a nice big gift under our tree, in the form of an invalidated 922(o). Then we can ring in the new year with dozens of Form 1's as we convert our AR's. Yeah, I know, the chances of a Stewart ruling that favors the 2nd Amendment is remote, but I'm holding off on my current batch of SBR forms until we get a decision... I'd rather register a machinegun. :)

[TheOtherOne]

C'mon guys, show a little Christmas spirit. Maybe the Supreme Court will leave a nice big gift under our tree, in the form of an invalidated 922(o). Then we can ring in the new year with dozens of Form 1's as we convert our AR's. Yeah, I know, the chances of a Stewart ruling that favors the 2nd Amendment is remote, but I'm holding off on my current batch of SBR forms until we get a decision... I'd rather register a machinegun. :)Are they actually going to even hear this case? If they don't, then doesn't the lower courts ruling stand and so even though they've ruled favorably that still means the ATF keeps doing things the way it's doing them right now.