possible harrasment batf


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sigmaman
November 14, 2004, 01:25 AM
couple of weeks ago my wife wanted a gun. she is a permanent resident who has been here a number of years and is getting her citizenship soon.
anyways we go to this (unnamed sports chain) she picks out a gun she has been researching and asks the guy for help. he keeps talking to me like she hasnt got no brains or nothing. i keep refering him to her for questions.
finally it gets to the 4473 she fills it out and the guy keeps asking her if she is a citizen in one form or another. she says look heres my green card heres my a number heres prrof i been here. finally i get sick of it. i say were out of here and i tear up the 4473 cause i am pissed. and we walk out.
we go to our local gun store same gun 30 dollars more but its worth it cause they treat everyone the same. she picks out the gun 30 dollars more and we fill out the 4473 go home.
next day i get the phone numbers of the regional sales manager and the corporate sales manager and i give them a piece of my mind of the aforementioned store. they already know everything.
guess what even though my wife had purchased a gun 2 months earlier
she is denied. she has no felonies or anything that would disqualify her from purchasing a gun. but she is denied. so now we are waitng to go thru the appeal process cause she can never purchase a gun and it might be a black mark against her. we dont know why she was denied until after the appeal process casue they wont tell us.
today we gget a letter from corporate chain stating we had attempted an unauthorised firearm purchase and if we ever go to that store (like we ever would ) we would be arrested for trespassing.
question what could a gun store say that would deny her rkba?
how do we go about correcting this. is there any redress for any false information they may of relayed to the batf?

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Trebor
November 14, 2004, 01:37 AM
What state are you in? If it's Michigan, I know a good attorney I can reccomend. You don't want to fight a denial without an attorney.

sigmaman
November 14, 2004, 01:47 AM
wisconsin
like i said can not find the reason for the denial without going thru appeals proccess. they are supposed to send an appeal package and we are supposed to get fingerprinted and send that in then and only then will they tell us reason for denial. like i said my wife doesnt even so much as have a parking ticket and she is a permanent resident

beerslurpy
November 14, 2004, 01:47 AM
If you tore up the 4473, why would they relay anything to the ATF? Its not like they can fabricate a felony conviction for her.

Definitely ???? with them if you have the skrilla for a lawyer. Its wrong that the sporting goods store is harassing people because they arent naturalized citizens.

DMF
November 14, 2004, 01:54 AM
I fail to see what your rant has to do with the ATF.

sigmaman
November 14, 2004, 02:03 AM
ok maybe im wrong ...sorta
if my wife is denied then the atf WILL be notified of her denial
along with the fbi and a special police unit in this state that is a fact
like i already said she wants to be a citizen she is studying for the exam
in this post 9/11 world you dont think a denial to purchase a hand gun is something to worry about?
do you really believe the atf doesnt get a report on hand gun purchase denials?
from this url
http://www.usdoj.gov/oig/inspection/ATF/0406/intro.htm
this info
As of April 2004, the Brady Operations Branch consisted of 14 employees and 1 contractor, including 7 specialists who review FBI NICS referrals. Each specialist is responsible for the denials pertaining to specific ATF divisions.

The FBI electronically transmits both delayed denials and standard denials daily to the Brady Operations Branch. The Branch's specialists process delayed denials immediately and forward them to the field. To do this, a specialist electronically accesses the transaction screen to review the FBI notes on the denial; contacts the FFL for a copy of ATF Form 4473; and, if necessary, accesses various law enforcement databases to verify criminal history data. The specialist also contacts local law enforcement, court clerks, or others for copies of supporting documentation. The specialist then adds any applicable notes pertaining to the denial and saves the referral. This action automatically creates a case in NFORCE, the ATF's electronic case management system, and transfers it to the NICS coordinator at the appropriate ATF field division office. The specialist also faxes or mails to the appropriate NICS coordinator copies of documents obtained from the FFL or local criminal justice or other public agencies. Because delayed denials require that the ATF retrieve the firearm, all cases are forwarded to the field for immediate action.

Standard denials are processed in the order received. In contrast to the delayed denials, only a small percentage of standard denials are forwarded to the field because of the large volume (approximately 60,000 a year) and limited investigative resources. As a result, the specialists forward only those cases that have prosecutorial merit.11 These cases are processed and forwarded in a manner similar to the delayed denials.

During CY 2002, the Brady Operations Branch forwarded 7,897 (13.2 percent) of the 59,778 standard denials it processed to the field. During CY 2003, the Branch forwarded 5,606 (10.7 percent) of the 52,606 standard denials it processed to the field. The proportion of standard denial referrals forwarded to those not forwarded is shown in Figure 2.12

Valkman
November 14, 2004, 02:15 AM
DMF said that because of the thread title, and there is no harrasment even if the ATF is notified. Just find out why she was denied and go from there.

Wildalaska
November 14, 2004, 03:14 AM
If your wife has a green card and is showing up as a Brady denial, ya better see an immigration attorney....

WildhasagreencardwifeAlaska

Art Eatman
November 14, 2004, 10:39 AM
I've gone back to re-read all this.

Store A denies, by just the clerk's action? No phone-in about the 4473?

After the above, Store B sells, right? Doesn't this mean the NICS went through okay?

So where's the problem? The solution, seems to me, is stay out of Store A.

In the future, hold your temper and leave quietly when you run into what seems like ignorance of the law. No point in picking fights you can't win.

Art

45Badger
November 14, 2004, 10:47 AM
Rambling rant was confusing, but sounds like "Store B" sale got denied while in waiting period (handguns in WI).

jefnvk
November 14, 2004, 01:41 PM
Rambling rant was confusing, but sounds like "Store B" sale got denied while in waiting period (handguns in WI).

I think Store A got the denial, if he mentioned Regional and Corporate sales managers calling. Which makes no sense if Store B sold them the gun.

I would just never go to that store again. Go through the appeal, get things cleared up, and let the store know you will never go back again.

sigmaman
November 14, 2004, 02:44 PM
ok i dont even understand myself
1 went to bigot gun supplies
2 wife canceled sale due to bigot salesmans attitude after filling out 4473 b4
handgun check
3 go to Nice guys gun store purchase same gun fill out 4473
4 go home
5 call bigot gun supplies regional and corporate offices to complain about treatment. they already know!
6 go to pick up gun at nice guys 3 day waiting extension ?!!
7 denied purchase of gun no reasons given
8 waitng for appeal packet to appeal decision
9 get certified letter from bigot gun supplies lawyers telling us
A) we tried to make and unathorised purchase of hand gun
B) if we go back we will be arrested for trespassing
now as to my actions at bigot gun sales i didnt threaten anyone
we walked out
i tore the 4473 in half cause i didnt want them to have our information

so what did bigot gun sales do that would get us a denial when my wife is as clean as angel?
they did something cause she has never gotten a denial b4
thats as clear as i can make it
yes we will go thru with appeal, but i am trying to find answers because i want to know what they did and if they can be punished for it

Hawkmoon
November 14, 2004, 03:03 PM
Don't wait, and don't mess around. Hire an attorney. You can find links to attrneys who handle firearms stuff in each state on www.packing.org.

Be sure to discuss "libel" and "slander"with the attorney. If Store A reported ANYTHING at all about you and/or your wife on the basis that you walked away from a bigot of a clerk WITHOUT filling out or submitting a 4473, you probably have a strong case.

DMF
November 14, 2004, 03:04 PM
It's not only possible, but probable, that the events at the first store have NOTHING to do with the Brady denial at the second store.

You say you did nothing wrong at the first store, but I have to say I doubt it. I've had lots of run ins, with clerks and managers, but NEVER been threatened with legal actions if I return to the store.

Here is some advice, calm down, and try to be more professional and polite in your postings here, your approach to dealing with the first store, and the appeal to the Brady denial.

sigmaman
November 14, 2004, 03:42 PM
at the first store i stated
i tore the 4473 in half
i did not threaten any one
i did say you lost a sale
thats it
then the next day i called there regional manager
and then i called the corporate headquarters and complained about the treatment
as i stated b4 both the managers already knew about the incident
then i this certified letter
This firm represents Omitted. We have been advised that you attempted to make an unauthorised purchase of a firearm at the Omitted
location in Omitted wisconsin o november 3 2004.
The purpose of this letter is to direct you to refrain from visitng any location of Omitted at any time in the future. Your unauthorised presence at any Omitted location will be considered trespassing. You are also prohibited from conducting any business with Omitted until further notice.

now is it a coicidence that all of a sudden my wife is not elgible to purchase a handgun and we get this letter?
we own guns we have never been denied b4 so what changed?

saddlebum
November 14, 2004, 04:22 PM
it sounds like store A reported a attempted straw purchase or other illegal purchase attempt.because the clerk diidn't understand that she was a legal allien. when he got tired of the crap he tore up the 4473,so the clerk thought he was trying to hide something and they reported it. i'd get an attorney sounds like a false report was made based on the clerks ignorance . sb

Waitone
November 14, 2004, 05:03 PM
Did store A get your phone and address off the torn up form?

I would get a lawyer to find out why what happened happened.

There could be some derogatory info in your background or your wife's background that may surface elsewhere in life.

Lawyers can be a good thing.

sigmaman
November 14, 2004, 05:05 PM
they obviusly got our address from the 4473 cause i never volunteered it when i called the regional and corporate office to complain of the clerks behaviour
and your right about the derogatory marks its even more important cause she wants to be a citizen
so if it turns out to be true that bigot gun store made a false claim do we have any way of going after them?

sigmaman
November 14, 2004, 05:20 PM
they obviusly got our address from the phone number cause i never volunteered it when i called the regional and corporate office to complain of the clerks behaviour

Hawkmoon
November 14, 2004, 06:50 PM
I'm usually not much for beating dead horses, but in case you missed it the first time, let me repeat:
Don't wait, and don't mess around. Hire an attorney. You can find links to attrneys who handle firearms stuff in each state on www.packing.org.

Be sure to discuss "libel" and "slander"with the attorney. If Store A reported ANYTHING at all about you and/or your wife on the basis that you walked away from a bigot of a clerk WITHOUT filling out or submitting a 4473, you probably have a strong case.
Store A clearly reported the incident as an illegal attempt to buy a weapon, without any justification to make that allegation. You cannot handle this yourself. You need an attorney to purge the record at BATFE, and you need an attorney to go after Store A for slander (or libel, I can never remember which is which).

sigmaman
November 14, 2004, 07:57 PM
and every one else
yes i think maybe a lawyer is due
for these reasons
when we win appeal it will still be on record
the ffls i have talked to have said they cannot get some one denied
i doubt that i think the first store reported an attempt for illegal weapons transfer either to retaliate against us or just cause they are a bunch of racist bigots
store has 100 employees not one of them is non white
whats the odds of that?
thanks all definatly a lawyer is in line

artherd
November 15, 2004, 02:46 AM
consult A Lawyer/attorney Immediately!

c_yeager
November 15, 2004, 04:52 AM
Honestly I can't blame "store A" too much for their reaction. Selling guns is a sticky legal proposition for any store. And having a customer exhibit that sort of behavior ESPECIALLY the admitted* attempt to destroy the evidence and the involvment of a non-citizen.

*i tore the 4473 in half cause i didnt want them to have our information

I would hire a lawyer ASAP.

Also, it isnt particularly conforting that the title of your thread has absolutely nothing to do with the actual events that happened since the ATF doesnt appear to have had any involvement. Honestly, it makes it hard to completely trust your interpretation of the events.

I think that they probably reported an attempt at a straw purchase in one form or another. It certainly doesnt help that YOU were the one who destroyed the 4473 that your WIFE was filling out. You should never have even touched that document.

The fact is that even if the events happened EXACTLY as you described them, I cannot blame "store A" for making a call to the authorities just to be on the safe side. And I cannot blame the authorities for issuing a denial pending an investigation.

It is a matter of concern that a person with a green card got denied for a putchase though, I would definatly get it sorted out ASAP. The circumstances that would deny a firearms purchase arent all that different from some of the circumstances that would revoke a green card.

ScottsGT
November 15, 2004, 02:15 PM
Mind if I chime in?
I have noticed that you are typing in VERY broken english, and I assume that you probably speak that way being from another country. Nothing wrong with that, but how is your wife's english? He may have been directing his questions to you since he could understand you better that her.
Yes, time to "Lawyer Up" and go for it.
And good luck with the citizenship. We need more 2nd Amendment Americans on our side!

duckslayer
November 15, 2004, 03:15 PM
sigmaman,

It is possible for the people in the store to be ignorant of the firearms laws while at the same time not being racist individuals or a racist company as a whole. Please refrain from automatically pulling the race card until you have facts substantiating your claim regarding racism as the sole reason you had a bad experience :mad: . I understand you are angry, but get a lawyer and get this sorted out.

Did you think they would not be able to put two halves of paper together to get your information?

Lord Grey Boots
November 16, 2004, 07:18 PM
I am a permanent resident alien and was incorrectly denied early last year when the rules changed.

Permanent residents can purchase firearms, temporary residents can't.

The NICS operator screwed up and denied me, but a NICS supervisor I talked to a few minutes later confirmed I was OK, but once its been entered as denied, I needed to go through the appeal process.

I appealed and passed no problem.

Sounds like the "bigot store" didn't know the rules. Check the ATF/BATF websites for the rules on this, and appeal. Then talk to a lawyer about libel, as the "bigot store" is falsely accusing you of committing a federal crime.

sigmaman
November 17, 2004, 12:35 AM
sigmaman,

It is possible for the people in the store to be ignorant of the firearms laws while at the same time not being racist individuals or a racist company as a whole. Please refrain from automatically pulling the race card until you have facts substantiating your claim regarding racism as the sole reason you had a bad experience :mad: . I understand you are angry, but get a lawyer and get this sorted out.

Did you think they would not be able to put two halves of paper together to get your information?

60-80 employees 100% white milwaukee wi
dont know maybe it was the guys mannerisms maybe i dont know what discrimination is, I WAS There!
as far as tearing up the 4473 i did it cause i was fed up and i said when i did it "you just lost a sale" it wasnt about trying to hide anything if that was the case i would of taken it with us

Art Eatman
November 17, 2004, 10:07 AM
sigmaman, Lord Grey Boots' response is probably the most useful advice.

Worryin' about the "why" of the first store's peoples' behavior is a waste of psychic energy. :) Just vote with your dollars. Seems to me the deal is to get the pistol your wife wants...

Art

sigmaman
November 17, 2004, 10:50 AM
buying it today
it is a waste of pysche energy your totally right
my wife and i went to the uscis yerterday (ins formerly) and she got finger printed seems when we were there last week the interviewer forgot to get a set for her "NEW" A card
i think im just getting unnesscarily paranoid when i get older maybe its the first signs of alzheimers this will get straightened out

Art Eatman
November 17, 2004, 11:11 PM
Grat!

Glad it's working out for y'all...

:), Art

sigmaman
November 17, 2004, 11:42 PM
we still have not received the appeal packet from the state
talking to the hangun hotline yesterday it appears from there attitude they are not going to send it
they told my wife quite plainly calling is not going to help
and they have no answer on if they sent it or not

F4GIB
November 18, 2004, 01:43 AM
I fail to see what your rant has to do with the ATF.

You are correct. It's the FBI. Hardly anyone knows that the big boys at the Bureau run the NICS system (through an outside contractor).

Most gun owners don't follow Washington's internicine warfare. They think guns, they think AFT. But, the FBI won the game of interagency politics and got the big kahuna (lots of money, people, and power) away from the BATF in 1993.

P. S. Everyone should learn a lesson from this incident. Once you start filling out papers at a gun store, bank, or anywhere else and you decide to abort the transaction, tear up the document and then put it in your pocket and take the torn-up documents away with you. Leave nothing behnd. If you ever go back, start anew. I've done this numerous times. They aren't going to physically wrest the documents from you (unless they want an assault and battery tort lawsuit).

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