Kennedy assasination on Unsolved History


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Correia
February 27, 2003, 02:44 PM
Anybody else see this on the Discovery Channel?

They built a computer model of Daley Plaza, and ran through all of the film and photgraphs. Interesting show.

One thing I'm curious about though. Who here has seen the Zapruder film, where you can see the actual bullet impact? Watching it last night, especially seeing it run through a 3d model, it really looks like the blood flash is the entry wound coming from in front of the car, rather than an exit wound from behind. You can see back splash flying towards the rear of the car.

I'm no conspiracy theory buff (actually I know very little), but I've managed to shoot lots of things during my life, that looked like a hit from the front rather than the rear to me.

One other thing for you more knowledgable folks, what is the actual elapsed time from the first to the third shot? I've always heard that the best rifle shots in the world couldn't make the shots Oswald did. But then last night I learned that it was under 100 yards, shooting at a target moving slowly away from you (not much lead neccesary).

Unless the 3 shots came really fast, that doesn't sound very hard to me. Even with a Carcano. (which may be a crummy gun, but even being a 4 MOA rifle that isn't to hard to hit a head at 100 yards) and the bolt throw doesn't suck to bad. Anybody know how many seconds it was?

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Atticus
February 27, 2003, 02:49 PM
I don't know if this is rumour or fact, but I always heard that the three shots/hits could not be repeated succesfully by FBI snipers.

swampgator
February 27, 2003, 02:52 PM
Yeah, I wasted an hour on that. I've seen a few Unsolved Histories before and they always at shed new light on a subject. However, the whole Kennedy show was nothing but a lead up to the end "film panorama" that linked all the still photos and film of the event.

As for the time of the actual shots, I don't have any reference material in front of me, but the estimates are between 5 and 6 seconds.

Correia
February 27, 2003, 03:05 PM
See, now I've heard that same rumor that the best shots couldn't do it, but 5 or 6 seconds is very doable on a target at 100 yards, even with a bolt gun. Especially if you are in a good firing position.

El Tejon
February 27, 2003, 03:10 PM
Feh, everyone knows it was the smoking man and he used a self-loading weapon.:scrutiny:

braindead0
February 27, 2003, 03:10 PM
On a previous show, the History channel had an expert do it with a moving target on rails, simulating the speed, angle, distance..everything. The exper was able to get 3 shots in without too much problem..

But, I think it took several tries for him to do it.

Shooter 2.5
February 27, 2003, 03:18 PM
I have had the Zapruder film on my computer for a couple of years and have looked at it in excess of fifty times. The third round /second hit are consistant with a rear shot. Kennedy's skin came apart just above the right eye and it flapped over. When you watch the film, notice there is no visible action toward the rear of his head. The autopsy also showed that the skull bone had cratered with the larger opening on inside of the skull just like a BB hitting a window.

Oswald fired three times according to a lot of the witnesses in the motorcade. He had ejected all three rounds and had chambered a fourth round. All of the bullets or fragments landed to the front of the victims. Oswald fired all three shots in the span of 7 and a half seconds and the first shot starts the clock.

Shooter 2.5
February 27, 2003, 03:25 PM
The last shot was made at 88 yards. Owald was a lousy shot and he only hit two out of three.

The tip of understanding the Kennedy assassination is to try to keep your investigation to the interviews of the people who were really there and pay attention to the photographs.

I'll give you an idea. All the nuts in the world can claim it was really a Mauser, but when you see the actual pictures of the rifle before it was moved from it's hiding place and then the next photograph is the officer lifting it out from between the boxes, it gives an idea what to believe.

Waitone
February 27, 2003, 03:27 PM
I was in competition shooting at the time it happend on a military reservation. My instructor doubted Oswald could do it by himself.

IIRC the FBI could not duplicate the feat.

The single bullet theory is defies physics. If the single bullet theory is wrong then there has to be a second shooter.

IIRC the scope was misaligned WRT to gun's bore.

Historians obtained access to Oswald's KGB file. Oswald was a member of a hunting club. His KBG handler's evaluation is Oswald was incapable of reasonable marksmanship. Evidently he was a very bad shot.

and No, I'm not a conspiracy nut. But I do think governments lie and lie frequently.

Shooter 2.5
February 27, 2003, 03:49 PM
There is a discrepancy as far as could the shots have been made. Oswald missed once out of three times with a scope at 88 yards or less. That isn't a very good shot. The FBI and the NRA used Oswald's rifle and were able to hit. Did they hit on the exact spots as Oswald? No. But they were able to see that the Carcano and Oswald were fully capable to make the easy shots that he did. Marina mentioned that Oswald had also practiced with the rifle and he would dryfire and work the bolt during the evening hours.

Check the tests that were made at the time by the FBI, the NRA and CBS.

If someone would have used a scoped revolver, I'm sure there would be thousands of people who would say it was impossible to accomplish.

ball3006
February 27, 2003, 04:30 PM
was shot. The TV news coverage then showed a quick view of the grassy knol and people running up it. In the sunlight, you could make out a small cloud of smoke, as seen when you fire into the sunlight. At that time of year and time of day, the sun would be slightly behind the grassy knol and a smoke cloud from a shot would show up, and did. I have yet to see that film clip again. I am convinced there was a second shooter up there as I have been to the site many times. I consider myself a good shot and I think I would be hard pressed to make the shot from that window....chris3

beckrodgers
February 27, 2003, 06:33 PM
I did not see that show, but there was one on the History or channel like it . I saw it in 1991 name The Men Who KILLED KENNEDY 5 or 6 parts long. It made me rethink a whole lot. I have seen it for rent as well. Thanks

Double Naught Spy
February 27, 2003, 06:52 PM
Whether or not some trained snipers were able to duplicate the shoots from the schoolbook depository or not does not proove nor disprove a thing. The fact that the gun supposed used was not a great sniper rifle matters not as well. Heck, I watched a Bubba in bib overalls take round 1 of a benchrest rifle competition (5 shots at 100 yards) with the tightest group using a beatup 'truck gun' that he carried in a window rack behind the seat. Don't you know it made a lot of the high dollar benchrest gun owners uneasy to be behind Bubba and his truck gun going into round two!

ElToro
February 27, 2003, 07:30 PM
yes the FBI or whoever was able to use "oswald's" gun to make shots after they tuned it and tightened the scope... also they only found his palmprint on the gun 3 days later after he was dead...
curtain rods sir.. just curtain rods...

many many inconsistancies in the story... I seriously doubt that a bumblebuck like oswald who screwed up everything in his life was able to manage this either.. by himself at least..

RobW
February 27, 2003, 07:35 PM
All I ever heard is, that there were 6 shots! From an admittedly worn Carcano?. Jack Ruby (nightclub owner) kills Oswald (because he wanted to protect Mrs. Kennedy from the hassles of a "public" investigation). Ruby himself dies after ??? years in jail. Doesn't it sound like a good deal in Mario Puzos "Godfather"?

Sleep well.

Hkmp5sd
February 27, 2003, 07:48 PM
I have the DVD version of the Zapruder film and it appears to me to be a hit from behind.

BTW, on the DVD, the Zapruder film is actually "widened" somewhat. The camera/film Zapruder used actually filmed the full width of the film, even across the area where the sprocket holes are located. They have included the images that were recorded between those holes.

beckrodgers
February 27, 2003, 07:50 PM
No, educate yo sef as murch as possible esp on stuff like this. The POTUS is more than a politician He is supposed to be the capstone uniting us all, the conspiracy to kill & cover it up is so simple yet mind boggling & confusing. Distract divide confuse conquer. Sorry, lets all educate our selves as much as we are able . THANKS

bad_dad_brad
February 27, 2003, 08:07 PM
Oswald did it. I am convinced. I have read many books on the subject. Seen a lot of bad TV. And although, so blatantly incorrect with the facts, I found Oliver Stone's movie "JFK" to be a fascinating study in paranoia. Watch it drunk sometime and you WILL be looking over your shoulder. That character that Donald Sutherland plays makes you wonder.

But that is all myth. Oswald did it.

Read Norman Mailer's book "Oswald's Tale". And there is another good book on the subject that detracts conspiracy pundents. It is called "Case Closed". I don't have the author's name handy at the moment.

On an interesting note regarding firearms, I read a book a few years back by a balistics expert that had a theory, just a theory mind you, that a Secret Service agent in the car behind the President let off an AD from the very young Stoner design the AR-15, when the cars lurched forward in acceleration, after hearing the first shot or two. His theory projects the idea that it was the tumbling upon impact .223 round which was the devestating head shot.

Rembrandt
February 27, 2003, 08:08 PM
....try this with your bolt action....if you normally shoot right handed with a right handed bolt gun it takes too much time, can loose sight alignment, and your cheek may pull off the stock....Now try the same thing only on your left shoulder. This allows the right hand to be completely free to operate the bolt without removing your cheek from the stock or loosing sight alignment. Some years ago "Second Chance Shoot" conducted a mock contest with Carcano's on pumpkins....many participants could make the shots in the alloted time frame.

Hkmp5sd
February 27, 2003, 08:39 PM
In regards to who killed Kennedy, I agree completely with bad_dad_brad. Case Closed convinced me that Oswald, acting alone, killed JKF. The author is Gerald Posner.

4v50 Gary
February 27, 2003, 08:45 PM
Being the cynic I am, if Lon Horuchi (Mr. Sureshot of Waco fame) can do from Oswald's purported perch at the depository (hey, I visited there once and bought the black & white postcard), then there's no conspiracy.:scrutiny:

Hkmp5sd
February 27, 2003, 10:00 PM
Test the single shooter theory yourself. Here is the Dealy Plaze Live Webcam (http://www.earthcam.com/jfk/) . Dig out your favorite bolt-gun and see how fast you can hit the cars driving by. The camera is mounted in the 6th floor window that supposedly was Oswald's sniper position. :)

Double Naught Spy
February 27, 2003, 11:16 PM
My dad was a Dallas cop at the time of the shooting, off duty that day, but that soon came to an end. Pretty much all the off duty officers were called in to work that day. I don't doubt Oswald shot Kennedy, but I do doubt that he acted alone. He may have thought he acted alone, but there are too many other things that went on that day for me to believe they were all random incident coincidences.

Some of the supposed important factors, like the guy with the umbrella who pumped it up and down as Kennedy was approaching, do appear potentially non-relevant. The guy with the umbrella was one of the few people who brought along his own shade. The pumping up and down action which has been suggested as a signal of some sort is not an uncommon action when holding an open umbrella, sort of like waving or clapping. I doubt the guy was any sort of signal as the supposed other shooting locations either could not see him or could already see the President by the time the guy started pumping.

My pop and a lot of the police at the time knew Jack Ruby. He was something of a cop buff and many of the cops had either eaten at or visited some of Ruby's businesses. Some of the press made a big deal out of Ruby being in the garage area where Oswald was being transported as if he had somehow gotten into a highly secure area. That isn't quite right. Many of the cops there recognized Ruby and a couple even chatted with him before Oswald came out. Apparently, nobody thought much of him being there as everyone wanted to see who killed Kennedy. Heck, there were cops there who weren't on duty who wanted to see Oswald as well as several other folks who were not law enforcement or media. So there was no big deal about Ruby being present at that time. Of course, why Rudy did what he did and whether or not he was part of some secret plot is beyond me.

Uncle Ethan
February 28, 2003, 12:36 AM
I was working in a newspaper office when the news came in- I was in College and have always shot and reloaded. When the Warren Report came out I became a believer that the government was lying. I don't know who else was there, but I doubt Oswald acted alone-BECAUSE why would the Warren report put in that embarrassingly obvious "magic bullet" that could cause so many injuries and yet be so pristine and hardly damaged at all when found on the stretcher. I have seen hundreds of fired bullets, and none of them are that perfect unless fired into water. Look at the bullets that are fired into ballistic jelly, they are damaged. Why would the Warren report go to such lengths to try and prove that Oswald alone caused the wounds unless they were hiding something? What about the bullet damage to the dashboard of the limo Kennedy was riding in. That came from behind, but as they have accounted for all of Oswalds shots, whose was it? And why didn't Oswald take the easy shot of kennedy when the car first turned right and came straight toward him, much closer and easier shot? The single most damning evidence is the Warren report. Read it- pure balderdash!!:fire:

JohnKSa
February 28, 2003, 12:49 AM
I own probably 20 books on the topic and have read another 10-20--most are junk--especially anything written by or associated with the insane DA from Louisiana.

I've watched almost every TV special or documentary on the topic and have most on videotape.

I have a copy of the the Zapruder film showing the sprocket holes and all, and with each frame numbered for easy reference during freeze frame and slow-mo.

Oswald's shots have been duplicated on more than one occasion and by more than one shooter.

Usually by lefties like Oswald, and usually by a shooter who ignores the scope and uses the open sights (which were easily visible under the scope due to the mounting setup).

The bullet wasn't pristine, it was flattened and bent--most of the photos show it from the side that shows little damage because that view supports their theory. And, while many have seen bullets fired into gelatin, few have seen a 160 grain full metal jacket 6.5mm bullet tested at only 2200fps.

Oswald did it. He was a bonafide fruitcake. And, he acted alone, although that doesn't mean that there wasn't some coverup after the fact...

How's that for a teaser? For more read the best book I've read on the topic: Mortal Error by Bonar Menninger. Goes along with my philosophy: "Never try to complicate something that can be easily explained by stupidity."

45King
February 28, 2003, 08:35 AM
JohnK, I've read Mortal Error and agree with much of it. However, I'm still not sure that Oswald did it.

Aproximately 90 seconds after the last shot was fired, a Dallas motorcycle policeman entered the Book Depository and was met just inside the entrance by a woman who worked there. As he was talking to her, Oswald walked out of the snack bar/cafeteria, drinking a soda pop, looking calm and unruffled (according to their description.) The officer pointed to him and asked if he worked here, and the woman replied yes.

If Oswald did fire those shots, then he holds the distinction of being the best actor/athlete ever. He would have had to fire the shots, hide the rifle, thread his way through the piles of books to the door, then run down 6 flights of stairs, enter the cafeteria, buy a pop, open it and start drinking it, then walk out of the room, all within 90 seconds-without showing any sweat, heavy breathing, or any other signs of extreme physical exertion or mental stress. I think it's physically impossible to do that.

Maybe Meninger is right-the killing shot was accidentally fired by a SS agent from an M-16 in the follow car. I'm still not sure where Oswald fits into things, except as a patsy.

As to the difficulty of the shots-they were quartering away shots, target moving left to right. The trees growing around the edges of the Plaza would have intermitently interfered with the line of sight of a shooter from that window. It would have taken a pretty good shot, someone who was familiar with his gun, and knew the gun was accurate. So why would he have picked a junky Carcano with a bum cheap scope? Why didn't he take the "gimme" shot, when Kennedy's limo was headed straight at him at a low rate of speed?

seeker_two
February 28, 2003, 09:46 AM
I don't know if this is rumour or fact, but I always heard that the three shots/hits could not be repeated succesfully by FBI snipers.

Wow, what a surprise...LEO's not being able to recreate the feats of someone (ex-Marine) who practiced more than just for qualifications...imagine that...:scrutiny:

Next you'll be telling us that the FBI negotiators aren't that good at talking standoffs to a peaceful conclusion... (BTW, Happy 10th Anniversary, Waco...)...:cuss:

Hkmp5sd
February 28, 2003, 10:38 AM
all within 90 seconds-without showing any sweat, heavy breathing, or any other signs of extreme physical exertion or mental stress. I think it's physically impossible to do that.

The cop was Marrion Baker. The Warren Commission had Baker recreate Oswald's actions from the sixth floor to the spot where they met on the second floor, including taking the time to hide the rifle. Baker did this twice. While walking at a normal pace, he made the trip in 1 minute and 18 seconds. Using a faster pace, he made it in 1 minute and 14 seconds. Secret Service Agent John Howlett also made the dash in under 1.5 minutes. Neither Baker nor Howlett were out of breath or heavily breathing when they reached the spot on the second floor.

As for mental stress, that is totally dependant on the individual. After brutally murdering the LaBianca's, Manson followers Charles Watson, Leslie Van Houton and Patricia Krenwinkel went into the kitchen, made sandwiches and drank chocolate milk before leaving.

Shooter 2.5
February 28, 2003, 11:03 AM
JohnKSa,

And the amount of the grains lost matched the amount that was found. Connelly had a shallow wound to the thigh. The conspriacy people never mention that if the bullet on the stretcher wasn't the bullet, where did the "other" bullet go?

Where are their "curtain rods"?

The palm print on the rifle wasn't found until they took the rifle apart. The prints were on the underside of the barrel. Cloth threads were found caught on the butt plate matching the type of shirt Oswald was wearing.

His rifle, his ammo. the wife said he practiced
She took the picture, the camera matched the pictures.
the people in the motorcade heard three shots, Oswald's work sheet said he didn't do anything that morning.
He was there when the "sniper's nest" was created, no one saw him during the shooting, the guys on the fifth floor heard three shots.
No curtain rods were found.
All the bullets landed forward of the victims.
Zapruder and his secretary never saw anyone shooting at the fence.
No one saw a person shooting at the fence even though they were standing next to the fence.
The only person who claimed he had a 'bullet" whizz past his ear, refused interviews after he claimed that.
The motorcop who ran up the stairs to check the fence area never say anyone.
The people rushing up the stairs were tryiing to see the limo drive up I-35 to Parkland.

beckrodgers
February 28, 2003, 06:16 PM
hey guys, I don't want to beat a dead horse. I swear it couldn't have been a one man job. Too many deaths associated with it, too many govt agencies. I have read about JFK's father and recently even about George Herbert Walker Bush, President being somehow involved, either in cover-up or otherwise. Also, about the comments LBJ made about Gerald Ford when appointed to the Warren Commission. By the way, Pres. Ford was neither elected VP or POTUS. He was appointed VP and ascended from there. Is he the only surviving member of the Warren Commission? What about the late 70's Congressional Investigations that came up with more than one guy? Anyway, there are a couple of websites dealing with this specifically that make too many connections to just say one guy did this. It really insults and worries my intelligence. I know we'd all like to put it to bed, but it is too big, too deep and too many bodies hidden away everywhere concerning this. An old friend keeps telling me that one day you white folks are gonna wake up and meet your "Government" and it aint gonna be who you think it is. I think he's right. Thanks

Hkmp5sd
February 28, 2003, 06:53 PM
The same government that gave us everything from the Bay of Pigs to Watergate managed to pull off the biggest conspiracy in the history of the known world without one single person involved or one piece of solid physical evidence coming out, even 40 years after the fact.

And Saddam doesn't have and never has had any WMD either...

Cactus
February 28, 2003, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by beckrodgers:
Anyway, there are a couple of websites dealing with this specifically that make too many connections to just say one guy did this. It really insults and worries my intelligence.

beckrodgers, it is these websites that you should be concerned about. They are the ones insulting your intelligence. I could start a website and say it was all a combined plot by the Boy Scouts of America and the PTA. I could even "produce" evidence to "prove" my plot. Still wouldn't make it so!

You say there are "too many" government agencies involved to not be a conspiracy. This is one of the reasons it isn't a conspiracy. That many government agencies couldn't keep a secret for all of the gold in Fort Knox. Remember that most of these agencies were penetrated by the Soviets at the time. It would have been in the Soviet's interest to tell all if there was anything to tell!

Just to dispell the myth of the Carcano being a "junk" rifle, the Italian army used it as their competitive target rifle for many years after WW2. Why would Italy, with many top quality gunmakers, keep a "piece of junk" as their target rifle for so many years?

beckrodgers
February 28, 2003, 07:16 PM
Cactus, your right I am concered bout a lot of the sites, your also correct on the govt keeping its secrets,the whole paranoid side just bugs me to no end. All Iam saying, is that the govt does keep secrets and information from people. There have been countless people that have come out with stories from inside. Also, stories come out in the news that people then seem to pay a little attention to such as, the 40 to 50 yr study of syphllis injected and given to people and then studied. I'm not going to debate or argue on this. There are many things that go on good and bad, seen and unseen. Have you heard the latest on the near-earth object impact type study from NASA? They aint gonna tell us if a big something is coming. This came out this year. Or did you know that NASA is actually a USAF run operation? There's a lot of examples and I say again those sites can be very ignorant and mind-bending. thankyou

MountainPeak
February 28, 2003, 07:39 PM
JohnSa, o.k., but where's ELVIS!:)

bad_dad_brad
February 28, 2003, 09:00 PM
Mountain Peak, he is on the grassy knoll.

tex_n_cal
February 28, 2003, 09:18 PM
Points to consider:

1. The government has a hell of time keeping real secrets, like building hydrogen bombs, submarine sonar software, and names of operatives. A big conspiracy to knock off the leader of the free world? They think they could keep that secret? They aren't dumb, they wouldn't take the risk!

2. Shooting at a head in a moving car is a low percentage shot, but it was the only opportunity for a single deranged individual. Sadly, it was enough for him.

Someone with resources behind him, like a government conspiracy or the Mafia would probably arrange for a bomb, bazooka, or some other device or location with much greater likelihood of success.

3. Why kill him at all, if he was a political enemy? Why not just arrange a scandal with one of his mistresses, which were well known to folks in DC. The mores of the time would have meant the end of his career.

****

Sorry folks, I think Oswald acted alone.

JohnKSa
February 28, 2003, 09:28 PM
Warning!

This may be disturbing to some...


Elvis, not JFK was killed in Dallas. They switched places just before the Dallas trip. Oswald, the only person besides Jackie who knew about the switch, killed Elvis because he secretly hated all singers with names that began with the letter 'P'. This sprang from his strange delusion that he was actually Patsy Kline--remember his quote after being arrested?

Oswald knew about the switch because he was having an affair with Marilyn Monroe at the same time as JFK. He was hiding in a closet after being surprised at Marilyn's place by the Pres and overheard the phone call where JFK, Jackie and Elvis worked out the switch.

Since their medical records were also switched, the doctors did not detect the switch during the autopsy after the assasination.

JFK lived for several years and was killed by a disturbed female fan who accidentally poisoned him while trying to administer an aphrodisiac in a tragic attempt to consummate her fantasy. She posed him on the toilet to deflect the investigation away from her. At the autopsy, one of the doctors happened to be an Elvis fan and realized that the man on the table was the wrong height. He delved into the mystery, but when the Secret Service was contacted and they realized that they had been protecting the wrong person in Dallas, they had the doctor committed to an insane asylum and covered up the incident.

I know all this because Marilyn Monroe told me. Her death was faked so she could retire in peace. I happened to recognize her at a Piggly Wiggly in Tulsa, Oklahoma while I was cruising the vegetable aisle and struck up a conversation. I was buying turnips and I have IRONCLAD PROOF!!! I kept the receipt from the grocery store.

beckrodgers
February 28, 2003, 09:29 PM
Absolutley possible, no apology needed here ,it just so painful in many ways. I enjoy the different ideas,& opinions on this one I value the good input and emotion here I say again thanks to all on this sensitve,issue .

beckrodgers
February 28, 2003, 09:38 PM
ha, JOHN that reminds me of a book I saw in 1987 called The Illuminati Trilogy or something simular connected ever thang with ever thang time traveling Ben Franklins OOHH man I had to put it down I had just finished the HOLY BLOOD THE HOLY GRAIL ,half the inside cover was all I could take. Thanks for the sense humor

JohnKSa
February 28, 2003, 10:02 PM
beckrodgers,

Seriously, it does seem that there was some coverup after the assassination. At the very least some people who should have known better did some very foolish things. But I think that the coverup(s) weren't evidence of a conspiracy, but just the product of scared people trying not to be blamed or partially blamed for being involved in a big screwup. One way or the other, the Dallas Police and the Secret Service had just failed in a REALLY big, public way and both had a big stake in doing as much damage control as possible.

We all get a little paranoid when we know we're going under the microscope...

Shooter 2.5
February 28, 2003, 10:28 PM
JohnKSa,

I remember a comment from one of the people who served on one of the commisions and he mentioned they had looked very hard to find a conspiracy. He said, had they found one, they would have been heroes.

The conspiracy people ignore the reason they were looking for Oswald after the assassination was because of the description given by the people who watched as he fired. One desciption was perfect but he thought the rifle was a lever action.

One of the photographers tried to take a picture of him as he was shooting but he was out of film.

Uncle Ethan
February 28, 2003, 10:48 PM
Whether you read his books, or go online and read the transcripts of the second congressional hearings- just check out Dr. Cyril Wecht's testimony regarding the evidence. He is one of the top forensic Pathologists in the U.S. and had permission from the Kennedy family to view evidence unavailable to others. He addresses the bullet hole in the shoulder blade area of the coat of Kennedy, the prisine bullet, the damage to John Connally, and most of the evidence. Read what he says, and you will know why the second congressional hearing decided on " more than a single gunman" theory. It need not have been the government involved- many think it was Castro, but as they changed the route of the motorcade the day they arrived, how could Oswald have known if he acted alone?

Hkmp5sd
February 28, 2003, 11:46 PM
but as they changed the route of the motorcade the day they arrived, how could Oswald have known if he acted alone?

This is example of the "true facts" fueling the conspiracy theory. It is in fact a work of fiction.

The location of the luncheon was selected by Forrest Sorrels, special agent in charge of the Dallas office. On November 14, the White House approved that location (Trade Mart).

The Secret Service was told to plan a route that would take 45 minutes to travel from Love Field to the Trade Mart. Agents Sorrels and Winston Lawson drove the prospective route that same day.

The Dallas Times Herald announced the Trade Mart location on November 15 and the following day announced that Main Street would be the primary route. On November 18, Secret Service and Dallas police drove the route again and confirmed its selection.

On November 19, the Dallas Times Herald and the Dallas Morning News printed the exact route of the presidential motorcade.

There was no change in the route.

556A2
March 1, 2003, 12:36 AM
Even though I am not very educated on the subject, my opinion is that it was more than Oswald. The biggest thing to me is Ruby acting alone, followed up by the fact I don't believe everything I hear, espcially if its from the government. Hmmmm I may just rent JFK next weekend.

JohnKSa
March 1, 2003, 12:43 AM
Hmmmm I may just rent JFK next weekend.
Research = being informed.
Blockbuster card = being entertained.

swampgator
March 1, 2003, 01:38 AM
Like a lot of you I've read reams of material on the JFK assassination through out my life. One thing I've taken exception to is the theory of the second gun man on the grassy knoll. When I was stationed in Texas I made it point to go to Dealey Plaza and see for myself.

One of the comments made on the show was true. Something to effect of "I didn't realize it's such a small place." I made it point to stand where Zepruder stood. And then it came to me. For all these years everyone has had there opinions, and many seemed concerned with the second shooter from the grassy knoll.

Everyone has seen the Zepruder film, notice how he steadily panned through the entire length of the motorcade up to when it begins to speed away under the overpass.

From memory, the elevated platform he filmed from is about 20 feet to the picket fence behind it. Yeah I got photos of it someplace but not in front of me.

The whole point to this ramble is this, if someone fires a high powered rifle less than 30 behind you, wouldn't you spin around the see what was going on? Zepruder didn't.

As for Oswald being the lone shooter, my only thought is why didn't he shoot when the car turned onto Houston, as oppossed to waiting until it was on Elm?

tex_n_cal
March 1, 2003, 02:09 AM
Thanks, swampgator, I had forgotten that point.

Even if it was silenced, a high power rifle bullet is going supersonic, and the supersonic crack would have been noticed by someone on the glassy knoll.

I did make a point of visiting there, once, when I lived in the Dallas area. It is a spot where history changed. I think without the 60's assasinations, much of the liberal crap we deal with now would not have gained a foothold in society.

I also once hosted Japanese business associates for a day. I know the folks in Dallas will cringe to hear this, but it was the first place they wanted to visit in Dallas:rolleyes:

beckrodgers
March 1, 2003, 09:38 AM
I just got up ,still mail posts on this .I still want to know who has seen the 5 or 6 part deal [show] that We asked before off the history channel The Men Who Killed Kennedy. What do u think of all this info & evidence?

Hkmp5sd
March 1, 2003, 09:51 AM
As for Oswald being the lone shooter, my only thought is why didn't he shoot when the car turned onto Houston, as oppossed to waiting until it was on Elm?

The generally held view is that he would have been visible in the window before taking the first shot had he attempted to hit Kennedy while the car was approaching him. He traded the easy shot for one that allowed him to remain hidden and allow him time to escape.

beckrodgers,

If you read Case Closed by Gerald Posner, you will know the inaccuracies in that series. I have a copy of that series and have watched it a few times. In the book, Posner specifically talks about The Men that Killed Kennedy and debunks their "evidence" and conclusions.

Shooter 2.5
March 1, 2003, 10:04 AM
There's your picture. There were too many people on the sidewalk not to have the muzzle blast effect them. At the very least, Zapruder and his secretary would have been able to identify anyone at the fence. http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/1710523.jpg

Uncle Ethan
March 1, 2003, 11:56 AM
Thks shooter 2.5-good pic and informative. I went to the plaza 3 years ago and checked everything out- that place is SMALL- I never thought to stand where Zapruder did. I still have questions because of Cyril Wecht and his testimony. I still wish it had been LBJ instead of JFK. Would have been a different world.

Also, please check out tetimony of Cyril Wecht about the bullet- the info you posted earlier doesn't jibe with his.

Shooter 2.5
March 1, 2003, 12:13 PM
I'm six feet tall and that would be the only differerence in that picture.

The information I had was from memory. The rounds that Oswald was using were 161 grains, matched by the partial box and the round he had in the chamber. The "magic bullet" was squeezed like a tube of toothpaste and it lost it's lead out of the base. There is also a dent on it's nose. When the round went through Kennedy, it didn't hit any bones. When it went through Conelly it hit his rib and then it hit his wrist. I was unable to find out whether it hit any bones in his wrist.

Matching the trajectories in either the second bullet or the third bullet make any shot from the "Grassy Knoll" impossible.

Hkmp5sd
March 1, 2003, 01:22 PM
One of my favorite points about the "pristine" bullet is the conspiracy types all state it was planted on the stretcher to tie Oswald's gun to the shooting.

The one minor point they overlook it that the bullet was found before Connally was taken into surgery and before the autopsy on JFK.

If this was a conspiracy, there is no way the conspirators could know if the bullets fired at JFK were still inside him or Connally. If they planted the bullet on the stretcher and then 3 other bullets were removed from the two men, they would have just exposed their conspiracy because it is given that Oswald could not have fired 4 shots.

Keith
March 1, 2003, 02:20 PM
99% of the conspiracy arguments revolve around two misunderstandings.

#1, Is the "magic bullet" and the timing of the shots. It has been pretty conclusively proven that the shots were not spaced within 5.5 seconds (as the Warren commission concluded), but were closer to 8.5 seconds from first to last. If the shots took place at different times, then the bullet trajectory doesn't have to do all those weird things they claimed it did in the report. And of course Oswald now has over four seconds to take aim and fire each of the second and third shots.
The best evidence that the Warren commission is wrong was found by Gerald Posner on the Zapruder film. You can actually see JFK's lapel being blown forward as the second shot exits his chest. The third shot is obvious...

#2, And I'm surpised that anyone on this forum would miss this... is all of the arguments about JFK's head being "blown backwards"... Well, haven't you guys ever shot a melon or a gallon milk jug filled with water? If you do this with a rifle (rather than a pistol or slow bullet of some kind) the object will fall towards you - towards the shooter - every time.

The reason for this is because the bullet makes a small entry wound, but then as it exits it carries all of the fluid (brain) out the back in something called the "jet effect".

Try it and see. Shoot a fluid or gel filled object off a post with a rifle and see - it will fall towards you every time. Ie: the shots had to have come from the rear - Oswald did it.

Keith

Shooter 2.5
March 1, 2003, 03:34 PM
Keith, I never try to be the first to introduce the backward movement to the issue. Kennedy was still alive at that point. Kennedy moves to the rear and right and Jackie moves to the front and left. It looks like they both recoil from the mess of the exit wound.
As you mentioned about melons, the entrance wound was 6 mm and the exit wound split the skull into fragments. The bullet broke in two with one piece hitting the chrome at the top of the windshield and the other cracking the windshield. Both pieces were found at the front seat area. I can't quite remember the exact locations.

4thHorseman
March 1, 2003, 09:18 PM
The government placed alot of information in a time capsule not to be opened until a 100 years later.
If the case is closed, why the time capsule, whats the big secret?

ahadams
March 1, 2003, 09:38 PM
in my old age but here's a little story that's true to the best of my knowledge.

When I was a young soldier, I worked for an old soldier who had virtually no sense of imagination - his MOS (job specialty) didn't require any and he certainly wasn't interested in anything other than his job. Anyway when said old soldier was a young soldier (a pfc to be exact and this was before the "snowfall" so a pfc was one stripe, not a stripe and a rocker the way it was later) he was assigned to the Army detachment at a certain government agency which was not directly associated with the Army at that time. From the time of the Kennedy assassination on through almost all of the next week he was assigned to a special burn detail which destroyed several tons of papers which had already been sealed in 'burn bags. They were under the direct supervision of a senior NCO who did NOT allow them to look at any of the material they were destroying. This was NOT the normal procedure for the agency involved (they usually ran a daily destruction of whatever needed burning that day, and that was all); and it was not repeated in the time (over a year) that the young soldier was assigned there.

Like I said, to the best of my knowledge that's the truth, since the guy who told it to me did not generally go in for making up anything, much less anything work related. Make of it what you will.

answerguy
March 1, 2003, 10:36 PM
One theory that can be easily refuted is that Oswald was part of a foreign (Russian, Cuban, whatever) conspiracy. Oswald worked at the school book depository prior to the trip to Dallas being planned. It would be just to incredible to believe the luck involved for a foreign government to just happen to have an agent working on a future parade route.

There is also nothing special about the condition of the 'magic' bullet. I've recovered bullets from target range backstops (slag piles) that could have been reloaded and shot again. I've also recovered bullets from deer in reusable condition. One was a pure lead round ball that quartered through a deer; it entered from the left hind leg, punched through the right shoulder blade and was finally stopped by the hide. It easily could have been shot again.

Could the 'proof' of a shot from in front (that proof being the blood splatter going backward) actually be a result of the forward travel of the limo?
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/JFK/completeZAPRUDER.mov

Anyone have a higher quality link?

A few other thoughts. Don't believe anyones opinion as to where a shot came from or how many shots where fired. I've spent enough time in the deer woods to know you can never be sure where a nearby shot came from and because of echos how many shots were taken.

Shooter 2.5
March 1, 2003, 11:32 PM
Answerguy,

All correct. The only people to be really trusted as to how many shots were fired were the guys closest and those there the two on the fifth floor. They even heard the brass hit the floor.

If you look at the video, there doesn't seem to be any action taking place from his ear to the rear of his head. Also the spray from the shot seems to go upward quite a distance. Any Prairie Dog shooter would know all about that.

The motorcycle cop went through a mist at 11 MPH. He had splatter all over his helmet. That was the cop who immediately checked the overpass and the fence and didn't see anyone there.

tyme
March 1, 2003, 11:59 PM
Maybe Meninger is right-the killing shot was accidentally fired by a SS agent from an M-16 in the follow car. :rolleyes:

Quartus
March 17, 2003, 12:55 PM
Hmmm. Noone has mentioned the missing frames from the Zapruder film.

buzz_knox
March 17, 2003, 01:26 PM
Did the show mention that the autoposy reports were altered?

Gerald Ford stated back in the mid '90s that the location of one of the entry wounds was changed in the official report from the area of the shoulders to the neck. He said that people might think that the lower wound would have led people to believe that there was someone other than Oswald, and that the Warren Commission felt that given the assassin had already been identified, it wasn't in the country's best interest to have such misleading information floating around.

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