[Harry Tuttle]

Eight years on and still no gun register

BRIAN BRADY
WESTMINSTER EDITOR
bdbrady@scotlandonsunday.com
http://news.scotsman.com/scotland.cfm?id=1314672004

THE national firearms register ordered in the wake of the Dunblane tragedy will not be in operation until next year at the earliest, eight years after parliament agreed the move in a bid to get a grip on more than a million weapons in private hands across the country.

The government has admitted that the roll-out of the long-delayed project has been suspended until the New Year, after it ran into a series of technical problems during its pilot period.

The huge computer system set up to support the scheme is unable to print firearms certificates, and the police and other authorities involved in the licensing process complained it was running "incredibly slowly".

The father of one of the children murdered by Thomas Hamilton at Dunblane Primary School last night joined opposition politicians and anti-weapons campaigners in condemning the "scandalous delay" in implementing the scheme - a central plank of the legislation rushed through parliament in 1997, in the wake of the murderous attack.

Mick North, whose five-year-old daughter Sophie was among the 16 youngsters shot dead with their teacher during Hamilton’s assault on the Perthshire school, in March 1996, said he was dismayed by the failure to get the project off the ground.

Ministers agreed the national register after post-Dunblane investigations, including the inquiry led by Lord Cullen, found alarming disparities in the records of legally-held firearms, maintained by different police forces across the country. Hamilton had legal certificates allowing him to own the guns in his arsenal.

Latest Home Office figures estimate that 1,325,385 shotguns are held legally in the UK, along with 316,669 other firearms. But the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1997, finally pushed through in the early months of the new Labour government, aimed to prevent "unsuitable applicants" from holding guns by creating a central register of everyone who had applied for, been granted or refused a firearm or shot gun certificate.

The flagship project has been hit by delays including problems developing a link between the national DNA database and the criminal records on the police national computer, and a freeze on all new applications to allow an essential upgrade of the police national computer.

The latest complaints over delays in the scheme come four years after the MPs’ Home Affairs Select Committee said it was appalled by the failure to implement a measure it regarded as "absolutely central to the safe and effective operation of the firearms licensing system".

The government signed a contract for the management of the system a year ago, but ministers have now admitted it has already run into problems.

Home Office minister Lord Rooker said: "Clearly, there have been unacceptable delays, but the delays were known about and not easily avoided."

North, who now campaigns against the spread of firearms across British society through the Gun Control Network, said the register was the bare minimum required to help fight the gun culture.

He told Scotland on Sunday: "We are supportive of any measures that make it possible to keep track of firearms, especially as information on the provenance of weapons used in gun crime is sparse. We believe easy availability of guns makes gun crime more likely, and this can only be effectively tackled if the source of the weapons involved is better understood.

"Personally, as the parent of a child who was shot dead by a legal gun owner in Dunblane, I am dismayed that, in spite of Lord Cullen’s recommendations, nearly eight years later this system is still not up and running."

The Police Information Technology Organisation, which is developing the register as part of a national firearms licensing management system that links into the police national computer, finally signed a contract with Anite Public Sector Limited to create the database last October.

The system was declared ready in the summer, but Rooker has now admitted that the project has been suspended until the New Year at the earliest, blaming "a number of technical difficulties".

He said: "A database on its own is not of much business benefit to the police. It has to work. It was set up and operational this summer and was piloted. Two key problems were discovered during the piloting.

"The system was unable to print the certificates, which I understand has mainly been dealt with now. Secondly, the system was running incredibly slowly - much too slowly for the police operational services."

Tory peer Lord Marlesford, who helped write the original legislation, said the government’s failure to meet its obligations was "a scandal bordering on an outrage" and called for an investigation by the parliamentary watchdog.

Liberal Democrat Lord McNally said the delay was totally unacceptable, and claimed many within the Home Office were dragging their feet on purpose.

He added: "The minister had better tell his officials that it is an insult to parliament to ignore an instruction, which the Home Office resisted at the time and many people suspect is still resisting."

But North warned that, even once the register finally becomes available to police forces, it might not fully close the loopholes laid bare by the Dunblane tragedy.

He said: "We recognise that the National Firearms Licensing Management System (NFLMS) will not include all weapons used in crime, partly because of the number of illegal weapons in circulation and also because many of the guns now used in crime do not have to be registered, such as imitations, airguns and so on.

"Nevertheless the system would provide a means of monitoring any movement of weapons from those who hold them legally into the hands of those who use them for crime.

"It also remains a concern that even when the NFLMS is up and running it only covers firearms in England and Wales."

THE WARNING SIGNS WERE THERE

When Thomas Hamilton murdered 16 children and their teacher in Dunblane Primary School on March 13 1996, he did so with four guns he had obtained legally.

The misfit loner was able to get his licences repeatedly renewed despite police being aware of complaints that he was a probable paedophile.

Hamilton was known to have taken pictures at camps he organised of near naked boys in skimpy trunks and there were complaints he had been violent towards children, yet he was never prosecuted and was allowed to continue owning guns.

In his official inquiry into the massacre, Lord Cullen found there was no good reason for Hamilton to have his licence renewed and there was a good case for revoking his licence.

But he said Central Scotland Police’s guidelines on firearms applications were unsatisfactory.

And there are continuing suspicions that Hamilton was protected by Central Scotland police officers. Witnesses told the inquiry police cars often stopped outside Hamilton’s home but the inquiry made no attempt to find out who his friends in the force were.

[beerslurpy]

Well, when you live in a socialist state and have a politically popular mandate, of course you drag your feet. After all, since there are limits on how much you can make in a year, why not spread it out as much as possible?

Hilarious observation that there are still loopholes left open by this, like the "criminal owned gun loophole" and the "black market firearm loophole" and the not mentioned but implied "gun control doesnt work as a crime reduction measure loophole."

[Hawkmoon]

I guess I'm even dumber than I thought. Let's see --

1. A man with a couple of guns killed some kids at a school.

2. The man owned the guns legally, and the appropriate officials had a record of his ownership thereof.

3. The police know who did the shooting, they recovered the weapons used, and they know the weapons were legally owned by the shooter.



I'd like one of the mental midgets in Scotland to explain exactly HOW a multi-million dollar registry of firearms would in any way have averted or prevented the incident from ocurring.

[Mk VII]

it was written into the Bill against the Home Office's wishes. The fact that they have accorded it such a low priority suggests that neither police nor Home Office see it as likely to be of any use. It's a solution looking for a problem.

[Standing Wolf]

I'd like one of the mental midgets in Scotland to explain exactly HOW a multi-million dollar registry of firearms would in any way have averted or prevented the incident from ocurring.

The object obviously has nothing to do with preventing crimes and everything to do with disarming the law-abiding. I believe it's worth bearing in mind England is the country that lost the American revolution.

[Stickjockey]

I weep for the country of my ancestors.

[Parker Dean]

I weep for the country of my ancestors


I think it's pretty obvious somebody is dragging their feet. Likely on purpose so don't give up hope. I mean we know after Australia, Canada, and Brazil it doesn't take years to get this sort of thing going.

The way I see it, Dunblane set off a political panic attack which allowed for legislation that would be unpopular in a lot of places. The possibility of fighting and winning at the time was near nil, so the play then becomes to stall as long as possible. All well and good, but the existence of this article suggests the anti's on to the game and going to try and push the issue.

The thing is, Have heads cooled enough for a rational discussion on the subjest with an eye towards repeal of the requirement?

[Glock-A-Roo]

In a way, I feel that the Brits & Scots deserve whatever crap society they've built if only because they refer to politicians as "Lord". :barf:

[Iain]

In a way, I feel that the Brits & Scots deserve whatever crap society they've built if only because they refer to politicians as "Lord". :barf:

Not a politician.

[armoredman]

Hear this weeping willow whine about the "easy availability of guns.."? In ENGLAND? Great Scott, these people won't ret until the whole freakin' world is made of NERF!

[WT]

I was last in Scotland in 1997. I remember seeing signs encouraging people to turn in their neighbors if known to possess firearms.

It is only a matter of time before they ban bagpipes and tartans again.

[Iain]

I was last in Scotland in 1997. I remember seeing signs encouraging people to turn in their neighbors if known to possess firearms.

It is only a matter of time before they ban bagpipes and tartans again.

Who is 'they'?

[Mk VII]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glock-A-Roo
In a way, I feel that the Brits & Scots deserve whatever crap society they've built if only because they refer to politicians as "Lord".

Not a politician. and only a Life Peer - not a proper Lord at all.

It's not gun registration, because they've already got that. It's merely getting the various police departments' computers to talk to each other. At the most, as Agricola said some months ago when somebody raised this subject, it will save the cost of making a phone call - but no more.

[Pilgrim]

Well, once the register is completed and working, the next step will be to get all nuclear devices in the hands of Al-Qaida registered. :D

Pilgrim

[RevDisk]

Seems like there is already a decentralized gun registry. It's merely kept in various police stations. I don't see the difference between keeping a gun registry in a couple places or one place.

[Mk VII]

Seems like there is already a decentralized gun registry. It's merely kept in various police stations. I don't see the difference between keeping a gun registry in a couple places or one place.

No great difference, as I said.

[WT]

St Johns - They? Why the Duke of Cumberland, the Butcher of Culloden and his crowd, of course!

[Iain]

St Johns - They? Why the Duke of Cumberland, the Butcher of Culloden and his crowd, of course!

Irony?

[Mk VII]

still not working:-

Which all makes one wonder what has happened to the national firearms database, now seven years in the making and still not functioning. In January, on behalf of the government, Lord Rooker told parliament that it was necessary to suspend the "roll-out" of the new licensing management system "as a result of a number of technical difficulties that came to light during piloting of the system last year". The main thing, he added wearily, is that "we are trying to avoid a computer fiasco - plenty of examples of such fiascos exist that we all know about". Since then, not much seems to have happened. It gives one little confidence that the more sophisticated task of a biometric ID-card database can be pulled off swiftly and without a hitch.

· Home Office Minister Hazel Blears, Charles Clarke's pocket rocket, said in a Commons written answer in June this year that the firearms database was scheduled to "go live" on July 11. It didn't. When July duly came, a Home Office spokeswoman revealed pilot testing of the scheme with different police forces would now start "in September". It won't. "October", understood in the generality, is now vouchsafed as the next putative date. Maybe someone needs driving that extra yard.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/diary/story/0,,1568475,00.html

[G36-UK]

As the resident Scottish nut, I feel I must point out that the people pushing this are people who lost kids in Dunblane, some of whom are members of our (in)famous Gun Control Network, an organization more known for their members than the facts.

Here's a few things you may not know about Hamilton, the nutter from Dunblane:

1: Back then, IIRC, you needed to be registered with a gun club for at least 12 months, with someone vouching for you being responsible, in order to get a licence. Hamilton got kicked out of his local after just over 5 months for reckless and irresponsible conduct (can't remember the exact problems).

The police said "okay", then gave him his permit.

2: There were a few problems with him threatening neighbours among other things. The police filed twice to remove his licence and guns, and twice they were overruled by (IIRC) the commissioner of the police.

3: Even after the facts came out, it was the gun-owners that got it up the ar*e. Funny old world, ain't it?

[TallPine]

G36-UK, I would be interested to know if there is a country wide demand for more gun control or just a vocal minority as in the US? Is there a difference of viewpoint between the Lowlands and Highlands/Islands?

I know that Scotland doesn't have the bred-in gun culture like in the US, but more of a claidheamh agus sgiath culture instead ;) Or has all of that just been bled out by emigration...?

I've got Highlands on the paternal side and Lowlands (via Ireland) on the maternal side - apparently my ancestors fought each other about 500 years ago :uhoh:

[MasterPiece Arms.com]

And there are continuing suspicions that Hamilton was protected by Central Scotland police officers. Witnesses told the inquiry police cars often stopped outside Hamilton's home but the inquiry made no attempt to find out who his friends in the force were. Any inquiry probably would have been shut down the higher you went up the supervisor chain, just like NUMOROUS F.B.I. agents were all but threatened with their jobs to "drop it" when they started investigating certain individuals who ended up on the 4 hijacked flights on 9/11. I'm amazed how government apologists will refuse to discuss how and why so much of the federal police force was TRACKING the 9/11 hijackers for MONTHS, while at the same time, almost proecting them by shutting down investigations of THE FEW HONEST F.B.I. agents who ran across the illegal activities. They tracked everywhere they went, what they bought, who they met with, etc [this is not a secret by the way].

OF COURSE Hamilton had "friends" in the police force. The approprate terminology would actually be "handlers." The #1 thing people have GOT to understand is that EVERY government on earth now has a well established, well funded, and very sophisticated dark side that exists solely for a variety of illegal operations. Television shows, which amount to dis-information and pure pro-government propaganda, always depict these elements as "extra patriotic" for their willingness to devote their lives to living the "double life" which is always depicted as exciting and wonderful. The truth, is that these dark side elements are the lowest of the lowest kind of sleaze who have zero good principles or conscience. The other thing that is never talked about in these phony T.V. programs, is that these sometimes heinous and very illegal operations are always, repeat ALWAYS done with the knowledge and approval of the very highest in government, especially whoever runs the particular government agency involved.

It was extremely obvious from day 1 that this U.K. massacre was an agent provocateur attack, allowed and probably assisted by the dark side of government for the purposes of passing this legislation.

...a central plank of the legislation rushed through parliament in 1997, in the wake of the murderous attack. People all across the globe have been brainwashed into being such government loyalists that they ignore disturbing "coincidences" like that. There used to be a time when people would be outraged if government dared to capitalize on high profile "tragedy." This is sadly all too similar to how the so called "patriot act" was rushed through congress after Sept 11, 2001. I have the utmost disgust for people who allow AND APOLOGIZE FOR government when it exploits emotion, and "rushes" new and rather radical legislation through, and when these people are too cowardly to ask "why the rush, why are you [the government] so eager to benefit [that's what it is, government is benefiting] from ABC high profile tragedy?"

I just have one more thing to say. I have had it up to here *holds hand wayyy above head* with these cowards...these children...these know nothings...these dumb hecklers...these lazy lazy people who always seem to come out of the woodwork when someone dares to talk about REAL [not hollywood] government conspiracy, and they ALWAYS have absolutely NOTHING to say other than grade school mockery such as the phrase "put on your tin foil hats folks." These people have nothing to add. They have no logical arguments to refute the evidence of conspiracy, so they turn to pre teen style mockery statements and then run away so they don't have to actually debate the subject. I have seen this type of gigantic coward rear it's head on this website [government apologists and mindless mockers are a dime a dozen], and before one pops up and shows how little they have to say, let me just get this out of the way right now: Yea, ha ha, you're sooooo funny, yep I'm wearin' my tin foil hat right now, you're amazingly original!

O.K. now that I have dispensed with the children, I look forward to hearing comments from the vast majority on this site who are thinking adults and know full well how government at all levels has become very evil, and that it does in fact engage in systematic high level conspiracy to gain more power and/or consolidate it's illegal powers.

[Lo.Com.Denom]

I don't think there's a great majority of people who are anti-gun in the UK, just an awful lot of people who repeat the latest slogans. All those who bleated that "guns are evil!" in '97 have probably moved on to "George Bush is evil!" or whatever nowadays. Considering what a minority sport handgun-shooting was back then, there was no real "voice" of the shooting community to oppose the ban. Plus, it's very hard to oppose the bereaved parents of 16 dead children without coming across as complete scumbags.
I believe there's a journalist who has uncovered evidence that Hamilton was protected by the police and who is trying, against severe obstruction from the police, to get the case examined in court. Can't recall the details, regretably. I don't think that anything will repeal the ban, however. :mad:

[Lo.Com.Denom]

Reckon that MasterPiece's post demands it's own thread... assuming that the winking smilie ;) at the top holds no significance, that is...

[GunGoBoom]

Eight year delay eh?

So THAT's what's caused the crime to increase over there. Well then next year, I'm sure we'll see a massive reduction in all crime, and especially violent crimes.

[G36-UK]

I think Lo.Com.Denom said it best. It's not that the antis were in the majority, but rather the gun owners were a smaller minority, and as such had a smaller voice.

Now, even airsoft is getting threatened due to the GCN claiming they can be converted to fire live rounds.

Don't get me wrong - I have a lot of sympathy for people who lose loved ones to gun violence. However, if my sympathies are played on, that sympathy goes. And (as is the case with Airsoft), if lies are told, I will do all I can to have these lies known.

A just cause is one that is is never furthered by lies. There's a petition signed by a load of the players over here (and supporters in other countries), but I doubt we'll have enough to convince the politicians.

(Sorry, I know replicas ain't much of a concern here, but there are people on other forums that I consider friends (similar to here), who will lose their jobs by the banning of sales.)

[MasterPiece Arms.com]

Plus, it's very hard to oppose the bereaved parents of 16 dead children without coming across as complete scumbags.

Exactly. That is why those who control the dark side of governments love these type of agent provocateur attacks to pass their legislation.

I believe there's a journalist who has uncovered evidence that Hamilton was protected by the police and who is trying, against severe obstruction from the police, to get the case examined in court.

He'll see even more blatant and institutionalized obstruction if it makes it into the universally corrupt court system, which is nothing but government rubber stamps and cover up centers. If he's doesn't shut up, he could end up committing "suicide" by multiple shots to the back of the head in the pattern of Vince Foster's "suicide."

Sadly in the USA, there are probably hundreds of federal whistleblowers currently languishing in federal prisons [gulags] as a result of trying to expose the deep and systematic dark side of government (some were dark side operators and some were just honest government employees). There are many accounts of federal whistleblowers getting to "court" and the only items the corrupt judge will allow are the defendant's illegal activities. Evidence that he was doing it on behalf of the government [and who his handlers were] is sometimes abruptly disallowed using unusual legal arguments.

People who are used by the dark side of government for illegal activities are chosen from the bottom of the dregs of society, and frequently have criminal histories or serious mental problems [this Hamilton guy is a classic example of this]. If the human asset ever turns on his handlers, the handlers sometimes can just tip off the local police and have him arrested for the very thing the government was using him to do. Having to kill a turncoat asset is in every other movie but is actually extremely rare. The rush to execute Tim McVeigh was beyond suspicious, given his known [uninvestigated, and possibly middle eastern] accomplices that the government strangely refused to pursue.

The icing on the cake is when government refuses to release loads of information (http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/mass/dunblane_massacre/7.html?sect=8) proportedly to "protect the families of the victims."

[swampsniper]

Yet if he should give up what he has begun, and agree to make us or our kingdom subject to the King of England or the English, we should exert ourselves at once to drive him out as our enemy and a subverter of his own rights and ours, and make some other man who was well able to defend us our King; for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom -- for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.

http://www.geo.ed.ac.uk/home/scotland/arbroath_english.html

[Lo.Com.Denom]

I believe that the "Tamsin Lewis" mentioned in MasterPiece's link, was the journalist I was thinking of. I don't know about government involvement, but I reckon the police certainly have some explaining to do and the case needs to be looked at again.
That link was actually quite enlightening. I didn't know that only about 428,000 (was it?) people actualy signed the ban petition - that leaves about 60,000,000 people who didn't sign the petition :rolleyes: !!
Didn't know that the tories tried to repeal the ban last year either! If only we'd had "proportional representation" in the last election, who knows what might have been (wistful sigh)... :(

Oh, and swampsniper, you've got it bass-ackward! haven't you ever heard of the West Lothian Question? :neener: (Just kidding G36-UK ;) )

[Mk VII]

Still not working, and likely to be scrapped

VICTIMS OF DUNBLANE BETRAYED
Gun register plan is scrapped
By Bob Roberts Deputy Political Editor

PLANS for a national guns database are to be scrapped - 10 years after it was promised following the Dunblane massacre. Senior Home Office sources said it looked increasingly unlikely that the National Firearms Register would be set up.
It was meant to keep a computer record of everyone in the country who applied for a gun licence. It was designed to stop anyone applying for a licence in one place after they had been turned down elsewhere. It would also have kept a record of all lost and stolen firearms to stop legal guns getting into circulation among criminals.
Campaigners hoped the register would be set up before March 13, 2006, the 10th anniversary of the tragedy, when Thomas Hamilton shot dead teacher Gwen Mayor and 16 children at Dunblane primary school in Perthshire before killing himself. But in a written Commons answer, Home Office Minister Hazel Blears said pilot schemes had again been delayed and were "rescheduled" to start this month.
She added: "The Home Office and the Police Information Technology Organisation are committed to commencing roll-out to all forces in the new year." But there is now no target date to set up the register nationwide.
And the Home Office sources said ministers no longer wanted to force all chief constables to sign up to it. One said: "There is just not the will to deal with another big, complicated computer project on a national basis. All the energies are going into setting up a database for ID cards and this isn't a priority any longer."
PE teacher Eileen Harrild, shot four times by Hamilton, was appalled. She said: "It's just ridiculous. People have very short memories. Anything that controls guns better is a much more sensible way of going forward."
Dunblane resident Ann Pearston, whose Snowdrop Petition led to a ban on handguns after the tragedy, slammed the delay as "short-sighted". She said: "We need to know when people are moving around the country with guns. It's about protecting society from these rare but horrific incidents."
Inverness MP Danny Alexander said: "It is disgraceful that it has been delayed yet again. Failure to set it up at all would be outrageous."
The £5.5million computer system has been plagued by problems. The first pilot failed - the system could not print firearm certificates and police complained it ran "incredibly slowly". It also had problems linking with the national DNA database and criminal records' police computers.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories/tm_objectid=16388049%26method=full%26siteid=94762-name_page.html

[Standing Wolf]

I'd like one of the mental midgets in Scotland to explain exactly HOW a multi-million dollar registry of firearms would in any way have averted or prevented the incident from ocurring.

In the first place, laws don't prevent crime; in the second, leftists never explain, never cease to complain.

[G36-UK]

I turns out that one of my teachers used to be on here. He's also a member of the club Hamilton went to.

He said that there was a third incident which involved Hamilton being caught with an unlicenced pistol (Big no-no here). Rather than revoking his licence, it was added to the pistols he was licenced for.

I've found out what the other two incidents were. I think I explained that he threatened to shoot his neighbour, but before that, he was caught bringing it into a school (foreshadowing?).

[beerslurpy]

Youre telling me it has taken them nearly a decade to write a database application that can print documents? Too funny. I have undertaken bigger projects on friday afternoons.

And a million records is nothing unless you intentionally design the schema with inefficiency in mind. I'm sure that a journey through their code would be quite hilarious. A programmer taking 10 years to accomplish a simple task usually means there are a chinese army worth of easter eggs hidding through the application. Maybe even an adventure game or two.

[sterling180]

G36-UK

I will list some of the reasons why Hamilton was kicked out of his gun club:(The reasons that I saw in past copies of the Gun Mart magazine and on the mass-murder website.)

1. Whilst taking part in Police and Service Pistol competitions, he continued to fire at targets, regardless of the rules of engagement in the competition. The range officer told him: "Thats bloody well out of order,Piss off"

2. he freaked out fellow club members by showing them pictures of boys from his youth clubs, naked exept dressed in uniform-black swimming trunks and shorts and said he liked them looking like that.

3. He was obssessed with corporal punishment and would beat boys if they fell below his standards, -with metal bars. He apparently boasted this to horrified fellow club members.

4. After one competition, he accepted a lift from his club secretary and told the secretarys daughter-who was a probationer at the time-in the car that he loved his guns in such away and he was allegedly stroking them and fondling the actions of his pistols. The club secretarys daughter later said: "That one is a right weirdo, stay away from him."

5. He stripped-off his clothes and ordered boys from his club to rub body lotion onto his naked body, whilst he moaned and groaned, almost having a sexual-orgasm.

He was known to the police and the locals as "Mr Creepy".Doesn't that tell you Dont renew this guys license.

You ruined our sport for the entire nation, Hamilton you Frigging bastard ???????, etc. I hope you Frigging burn in hell you Scum!

[Firethorn]

BeerSlurpy, I have to agree with you.

I've worked with million record relational databases on my desktop!

For that matter, this sounds like it could have almost been handled with a flat-file database.

The only complications would be intigrating them with the standard ancient criminal databases. Still, even without that you'd simply need to perform two checks. Make sure the applicant isn't in the criminal database(like our NICS check), then pull up or create their record in the gun one.

Not that I support a registry system such as this, but viewing it as a technical problem.

[LAR-15]

Hamliton didn't ruin crap.

The police let him get away with the shooting. They did it on purpose but why?

Were some of the cops fondling boys along with Hamilton?

Were they creepy perverts too?

Lots of unanswered questions lie with the POLICE

[sterling180]

LAR-15

Im sorry to tell you this, but Hamilton did ruin the sport because he killed those children and their teacher, thus giving those implicated cops an advantage to cover their asses by giving them a get out of jail card,so that the media would'nt question their credibility.Instead all eyes turned to the guns and how Hamilton got them, disregarding how he was really allowed to acquire them, in the first place.

This massacre gave THE POLITITIONS the opportunity to ban handguns as proof how dangerous they are, in the wrong hands.That Bastard Hamilton started the ball rolling for this stupid legislation, because he killed people.The present UK government doesn't seem to care that much about gun-owners rights, they care about removing potential threats from society. There are many other reasons why we have the laws we have, but I will explain later.

The Conservative government banned full-bore handguns, because of public pressure in Scotland and because they though this stunt would make them more popular in the UK than New Labour, thus hoping to beat them in the 1997 General Election.

You are absolutely right about some cops being creepy perverts and the Cheif Constable-no exeption- signed Hamiltons license, in the knowledge that he was of unsound mind and unsuitable to own a gun. The cheif renewed his license at some-point before the massacre.

Thomas Hamilton in exchange for having his license renewed and counter-signed, supplied those members of the Police with child-pornography and related material. Those officers did'nt care about his mental stability,as long as they got their fix of child-porn.

In 1991 a detective -Sergent submitted a report to the cheif, stating that Hamilton was mentally unstable and that he was a timebomb ticking away .This report along with local peoples letters went unanswered. I wonder why????????

When the truth came out, partially, most people were angry with the police for allowing this to happen, but alot of people believed that a pistol is:inappropriate for civillians to use,that the public don't need them for target-shooting, that pistols like the Browning Hi-Power GP-35 and Smith and Wesson 586 are killing-machines, etc.

Okay LAR-15, you are right about the foul-play by those dirty cops, but the antis strongly believe that if guns were banned, then idiots like Thomas Hamilton,Micheal Ryan,Kevin Weaver and Robert Sartin, would never have killed the people they killed, with legally held guns.

I find explaining our mentality hard to Americans and to others who can't understand the UK, logic. The UK government wants to be proactive in its approach to mass-murder and it also has pressure put on it by the antis, that will affect its term in power.

A CONSTITUTION LIKE THE US CONSTITUTION KEEPS ANTIS AWAY AND AT BAY.

This scandal is similar to the Port-Arthur tradgedy where a man purchased an AR-15 and an SLR FAL,from a licensed shop without a license and John Howard blames launches attacks on legally-held self-loading rifles and shotguns. This Howard man is a fraudster, he calls himself a Tory, he hates all guns and he is worse than Tony Blair and John Major in his gun policies.Not even Blair has demanded a ban on pump and self-loading shotguns in the UK.

[swampsniper]

"The UK government wants to be proactive in its approach to mass-murder".
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I wouldn't want to be there when they get "proactive" on rape!:what:

[G36-UK]

Sterling:
Thanks, mate. I wonder, did you hear about Mike Yardley giving a speech to Mothers Against Illegal Guns about ten years back, then getting forced off the stage by the Gun Control Network?

I just wonder if there's anyone who can confirm this.

[wjustinen]

Some years ago we had a fellow named Lepine shoot a number of young women at the Polytech in Montreal. My daughters response to the shooting was published in an Edmontonl newspaper:

"Had even one of the girls been properly trained and armed with a hangun, Lepine would have been stopped within seconds."

When we allow government/employers to disarm potential victims and/or those who are responsible for their protection (teachers of young children) we have failed in our civic duty.

[Creeping Incrementalism]

This scandal is similar to the Port-Arthur tradgedy where a man purchased an AR-15 and an SLR FAL, without a license and John Howard blames all gun owners.

I read that the man killed a gun collector with a legal collection and took those firearms.

[LAR-15]

Sterling,

Thanks for the reply.

Creeping Incrementalism,

There is still controversy to this day over how Bryant got his firearms.

[sterling180]

G36-UK

You are absolutely correct G36-UK, Micheal Yardley was attacked by an anti-gun mob consisting of members of Mothers against Guns and members of the infamous Gun Control Network. I don't have the relevant copy of Gun Mart magazine anymore-I threw it away ages ago-, in which he gave a detailed account of his ordeal, but I will tell you how he became involved with a confrontation, with the antis below. This incident occurred I think between 1999 and 2003, because the GCN 10 years ago was in its infant stages of development.

Mike was contacted by a member of Mothers against Guns, whose son was killed by gangsters armed with Ingram M-10 or M11 submachine-guns and possibly pistols as well. She wanted him to travel to this anti-gun conference in Nottingham, to talk some sense into members of the public-who would be attending this conference- on the basis he was an ex-British Army officer and Bonefide firearm and shotgun shooter;shooting journalist.

Micheal was astounded that a member of an anti-gun group had contacted him specifically and asked him to give a lecture to those people attending-and so he agreed and left his home in Essex and travelled north towards Nottingham- not knowing what would happen.

When he got there he was greeted by this woman and the two of them joined an anti-gun march, protesting against illegal weapons held in the hands of criminals.In the hall Yardley went onto the stage and stated that the handgun ban was a farce and further controls on firearms were unneccesary,etc.Unfortunately for him Gillian Marshall-Andrews-the chairwoman for the Gun Control Network-shouted to the proles in the crowd: "He's a gunman, he's a gunman" and soon Yardley found himself hanging onto the chair ug his heels in on the stage-floor, to prevent an angry mob-led by a heavy-set muscular man- from dragging him off stage and throwing him out of the hall.

In the midst of this moronic-nonsense, Yardley shouted at the top of his voice: I am an invited speaker, I am legally allowed to be here because I was invited here to speak".Some of the proles in the crowd said to Marshall-Andrews: "let him speak, let him speak", but the arrogant; ignorant bitch still with her fanatics screamed: "he's a gunman, he's a gunman, he has no right to be here, we didn't invite him here".soon the cops turned up and escorted Yardley and the Conservative MPs away from the hall, but this did not stop the antis hitting and shoving him with their anti-gun placards.

The Conservative MPs were outraged and left in disgust with Micheal and Micheal wrote letters ofcomplaint to Nottingham County Council and Nottingham Police, to show his contempt for the way that he was treated by the antis and for their incompetance in dealing with fanatical individuals from the GCN.Mike apologised to the woman who invited him and left Nottingham , to travel south-home to Essex.

[G36-UK]

And yet they can claim to be "The voice of reason"... my ar*e.

That's why I'm never listening to any of their members. I was thinking (if I wasn't on THR), about putting up posters made from Oleg's pics around where they are protesting in support of the IANSA.