Concealed permit holder shoots two-Co.


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CentralTexas
November 16, 2004, 06:32 PM
Started as fight over door ding.
Moral never try to bash in a persons head with a pipe he may be licensed to carry.
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_3331908,00.html

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ARperson
November 16, 2004, 07:43 PM
A man who fatally shot an Aurora man and wounded the victim's wife during....

So the assailant is now a victim? :confused:

C96
November 16, 2004, 08:45 PM
In the news, the one who got shot is always the "victim". I don't think I
have ever seen it otherwise.

allan

LD
November 16, 2004, 09:32 PM
I had a feeling that this guy was a permit holder by the way it has made every local newscast since the incident occured (last Saturday night). We've had other shootings (criminal) since then but they seem to have locked onto this one. Looks like the local media and antis might be smelling some blood to renew their cause of reversing our hard won "shall issue" statute and state preemption. I'm sure the illustrious Tom Mauser will be speaking on the capital steps shortly about how "blood is running in the streets" because of CCW holders.

The police and District Attorney haven't released all of the details yet so we'll have to keep an eye on how the investigation goes. However, I'd lay odds that if nothing else someone will pursue Colorado's "duty to retreat" clause in the use of deadly force against this guy. Even if it's technically ruled a good shoot this guy still may need some letter writing from THR members to help fend off those that want to make political hay on his bones.

SkunkApe
November 16, 2004, 09:44 PM
Well, I don't know all the details of this case, but if somebody hit me in the head with a metal pipe, I guess I'd probably shoot him. But that's just me.

Gunsnrovers
November 16, 2004, 09:45 PM
Without knowing the parties involved, who started the physical contact, and how it escalated, we have no way of knowing who to blame.

It is ENTIRELY conceivable that the dead guy grabbed the pipe to defend himself against getting beaten to a pulp.

Just putting another spin on it.

CCW holder doesn't automatically equal good guy. It equals a guy legally able to carry a firearm.

Time and more information will answer the many questions that need answering before passing judgement.

mr_dove
November 16, 2004, 10:56 PM
It sounds like a good shoot to me but we don't have all the facts yet. I'd shoot someone who hit me over the head with a pipe too.

I'd like to keep up on this. I'd contribute to his defense fun if it becomes necessary. Sounds pretty clear cut to me.

I think the police would have arrested him at the scene if they even suspected that it was a bad shoot.

I've seen it covered on a number of local news channels and they vary in their treatment.

The best I've heard is a station who referred to the CCW holder as the "suspect". Much better than the station who referred to him as "the shooter".

Bob Locke
November 16, 2004, 11:10 PM
Davis found a metal pipe and hit Eichstedt in the head with it and then Eichstedt pulled out a gun and fired, Walsh said.
If the above is accurate, then I am inclined to believe this was a case of self-defense. With the RMN, accuracy is not always at a premium, however.

psyopspec
November 16, 2004, 11:21 PM
Obviously, facts reported in the news are only believable to a point.

But I think this case proves the worst-case scenario that can result without a strict adherance to a philosophy of de-escalation. The consequences of killing someone, even in a perfectly justified circumstance (e.g. war, defense from a premeditated murder), can be tough enough to deal with personally. I'm not addressing whether it was a good shoot, just observing that I can't imagine taking it all the way over a door ding...

Hawkmoon
November 17, 2004, 12:29 AM
Obviously, facts reported in the news are only believable to a point.

But I think this case proves the worst-case scenario that can result without a strict adherance to a philosophy of de-escalation. The consequences of killing someone, even in a perfectly justified circumstance (e.g. war, defense from a premeditated murder), can be tough enough to deal with personally. I'm not addressing whether it was a good shoot, just observing that I can't imagine taking it all the way over a door ding...
I agree ... sort of.

However, if you look at it slightly differently, I CAN imagine taking it all the way if someone tries to turn my skull into mashed chickpeaswith a steel pipe, but I cannot imagine attacking someone with a steel pipe over a door ding.

Perception is almost as flexible as semantics.

deanf
November 17, 2004, 05:49 AM
That stupid article makes it sound like you must do all these things to get a CWP:

TO OBTAIN A PERMIT, AN APPLICANT MUST

• Have firearms experience through participation in organized shooting competitions or current military service.

• Be a certified instructor.

• Be honorably discharged from the U.S. armed forces within three years preceding application or with pistol qualifications within 10 years preceding application submittal.

• Be retired from a Colorado law enforcement agency with pistol qualifications within 10 years preceding application submittal.

• Have received a certificate from a handgun training class within 10 years preceding application submittal.

Sean85746
November 17, 2004, 12:13 PM
Something that will be important to know here is who dinged who's door.

If the whole fracas started because someone dinged the shooters door, and he initiated the conflict....he will get hurt bad by the legal system.

I am just being devil's advocate here....but it needs to be a lesson to all of us that carry...DON'T LET ANGER GET CONTROL OF YOUR COMMON SENSE.

I am a firm believer that we need to be conciliatory, and polite to the extreme when we carry. If nothing else, if we ever have to shoot, witnesses will all say we were polite and tried avoid conflict.

Looks better in court.

Battlespace
November 17, 2004, 01:41 PM
My CCW instructor told us over and over that it is much wiser to turn the other cheek and just walk away. Using deadly force must be the last resort. We weren't there so will not leap to judgement.

Sean85746
November 17, 2004, 01:45 PM
Amen Battlespace.

'Nuff said

Stetson_CO
November 17, 2004, 02:32 PM
The news here -

The shooter got hit over the head with the pipe. He shot the hitter, claimed self defense. So far, they are saying he will not be prosecuted.

I head that on 850KOA this morning.


c):{

mr_dove
November 17, 2004, 09:26 PM
If the whole fracas started because someone dinged the shooters door, and he initiated the conflict....he will get hurt bad by the legal system.

Looks better in court.

That's not necesarily true. You can have an argument or a disagreement without breaking the law. The law usually gets broken when one person puts their hands on the other person. Things escalate quickly from that point.

Even if the CCW got his door dinged, he wouldn't necessarily get in trouble. The person who escalated the encounter from verbal to physical is the one in real trouble.

Luku
November 18, 2004, 12:38 AM
I wonder why the concealed carry holder shot the wife? Was she harming him? Does anyone have any information on this? Just interested.

Daniel L
November 18, 2004, 02:05 AM
I'm interested in seeing how this one turns out. Are there any other details available? Why the wife was shot, etc.?


I've noticed many posts in other threads here where the poster(s) claim that he'll shoot a person for a mugging and those posts make me wonder if those posters have ever taken a CCW class.

Turn the other cheek... I have a bad feeling the CCW holder isn't going to get out without some form of punishment unless the dead man just swung at him out of nowhere.

hkOrion
November 19, 2004, 01:29 AM
Just saw a quick follow up on WB2 tonight - there was a vigil for the 'victim' and his family. There were some large groups at the Aurora police station as well today. Basically stating that the shooter should be arrested for murder, etc. Nothing was stated about the religious affiliation of the deceased, and the police are still waiting to get a statement from the wife, when she wakes up.

The kicker was that this story was followed by a report of a woman who was sexually assaulted at the Aurora Mall. Apparently, she was in her car on a cell phone when a man forced his way into the car and drove off with her.

So we have an incident where a white male shoots two persons of color and it gets all kinds of negative publicity, followed by a poster-child encounter of why it's necessary to have CCW in the first place. Thought it was most ironical.

hkOrion

Cool Hand Luke 22:36
November 19, 2004, 02:03 AM
My CCW instructor told us over and over that it is much wiser to turn the other cheek and just walk away. Using deadly force must be the last resort. We weren't there so will not leap to judgement.

Very wise advice.

If your carrying then the burden is one you to try to defuse a situation like this.

I find it hard to believe that the permit holder in this case couldn't have calmed the situation by agreeing to call the police, exchange insurance information, etc.

You do not get into heated arguments with people if you are carrying. You do not allow yourself to be provoked. You disengage if possible. You are oil on troubled waters.

Unless the deceased was a crazed loon on PCP I can't see why the permit holder was foolish enough to let this escalate to a fist fight, then a shooting.

But, then again, I wasn't there.

Maybe conflict de-escalation is something that should be taught in the CCW classes along with the legal aspects of a shoot.

El Rojo
November 19, 2004, 02:56 AM
I think there is way too little information for all of this speculation going on. "de-escalation", we have no clue what his options were before he shot. The piper might have bashed his car door and the guy might have wanted to get his information to have him pay for it. The piper might have then started the argument/confrontation and maybe less than 30 seconds goes by. Then the piper finds his pipe that just happens to be lying about (right) and bashes the CCWer. Bang, bang, bang, bang. The question is why did the wife get shot too? Interesting.

Moral of the story, don't bring a pipe to a gun fight.

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