Maybe we can get fishermen on our side now. PETA going after fishermen.


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Desertdog
November 17, 2004, 12:21 AM
PETA Campaign Pitches Fish As Smart
http://news.yahoo.com/newstmpl=story&cid=519&u=/ap/20041116/ap_on_re_us/fish_empathy_3&printer=1

By DAVID CRARY, AP National Writer

NEW YORK - Touting tofu chowder and vegetarian sushi as alternatives, animal-rights activists have launched a novel campaign arguing that fish — contrary to stereotype — are intelligent, sensitive animals no more deserving of being eaten than a pet dog or cat.

Called the Fish Empathy Project, the campaign reflects a strategy shift by People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals as it challenges a diet component widely viewed as nutritious and uncontroversial.

"No one would ever put a hook through a dog's or cat's mouth," said Bruce Friedrich, PETA's director of vegan outreach. "Once people start to understand that fish, although they come in different packaging, are just as intelligent, they'll stop eating them."

The campaign is in its infancy and will face broad skepticism. Major groups such as the American Heart Association (news - web sites) recommend fish as part of a healthy diet; some academics say it is wrong to portray the intelligence and pain sensitivity of fish as comparable to mammals.


"Fish are very complex organisms that do all sorts of fascinating things," said University of Wyoming neuroscientist James Rose. "But to suggest they know they what's happening to them and worry about it, that's just not the case."


PETA, headquartered in Norfolk, Va., has campaigned for years against sport fishing, challenging claims by Rose and others that fish caught by anglers do not feel pain. PETA also has joined other critics in decrying the high levels of mercury or other toxins in many fish and the pollution discharged by many fish farms.


The Empathy Project is a departure in two respects — attempting to depict the standard practices of commercial fishing as cruel and seeking to convince consumers that there are ethical reasons for not eating fish.


"Fish are so misunderstood because they're so far removed from our daily lives," said Karin Robertson, 24, the Empathy Project manager and daughter of an Indiana fisheries biologist. "They're such interesting, fascinating individuals, yet they're so incredibly abused."


The project was inspired by several recent scientific studies — widely reported in Britain but little-noticed in the United States — detailing facets of fish intelligence.


Oxford University researcher Theresa Burt de Perera, for example, reported that the blind Mexican cave fish is able to interpret water pressure changes to construct a detailed mental map of its surroundings.


"Most people dismiss fish as dimwitted pea-brains. ... Yet this is a great fallacy," wrote University of Edinburgh biologist Culum Brown in the June edition of New Scientist. "In many areas, such as memory, their cognitive powers match or exceed those of 'higher' vertebrates, including non-human primates."


Chris Glass of the Manomet Center for Conservation Sciences in Massachusetts led another recent study, showing how North Sea haddock developed abilities to avoid trawlers' nets.


"There's no doubt that fish of all shapes and forms are capable of learning fairly complex tasks," Glass said. "They can learn from their environment and experience."


Yet Glass declined to endorse the don't-eat-fish appeals.


"We don't want to be caught between warring factions," he said. "We're interested in helping the fisheries industry do a responsible job."


To press their argument, PETA activists plan demonstrations starting next month at selected seafood restaurants nationwide. PETA also will urge changes in commercial fishing practices, for example proposing that trawler crews stun fish before cutting them up.


Friedrich questioned why there is popular support for sparing marine mammals — dolphins and porpoises — yet minimal concern for species like tuna, "whose suffering would warrant felony animal cruelty charges if they were mammals."


Fish-welfare rules would be a new realm for U.S. commercial fishermen. The National Fisheries Institute, which represents them, has pledged to help sustain fish stocks but its members have never faced cruelty regulations regarding their catch.

"It's irresponsible to discourage people from eating fish at a time when doctors and dietitians advise eating it twice a week," said institute president John Connelly. "If anything, we should be eating more fish."

Friedrich acknowledges the difficulty of changing long-held customs, but thinks his project is worthwhile. "We'd rather go too far than not far enough," he said.

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Mgraff
November 17, 2004, 02:13 AM
People
Eating
Tasty
Animals

P E T A

These wacos try this every few years, I think I'll go shoot some carp with my bow, so I'll have something to hand out at thier demonstrations :neener: They have gotten laughed off the street corners here, the 2 times I can remeber any bunny huggers showing up to the protests. The further they move towards the frindge the less real impact they have. I hope they all have a nice salad and go away!!

MarkDido
November 17, 2004, 09:51 AM
To quote "Mad Max" on the John Boy and Billy Show.

"Iffn God didn't want us to eat animals, why'd he make 'em outta meat!"

Art Eatman
November 17, 2004, 10:18 AM
I think the name is Wayne Purcelle; he was or maybe still is the head honcho of HSUS. In an interview article in one of the outdoor mags some ten or twelve years ago he stated that after they'd ended hunting they'd go after the fishermen...

PETA suckers enough people to have the money to start most any anti- campaign they want. Too bad so many people think they're only against the usual cruelty that some people perpetrate...

Art

George S.
November 17, 2004, 11:25 AM
When fishing poles are outlawed, only outlaws will have fishing poles.....


"Fish are very complex organisms that do all sorts of fascinating things," said University of Wyoming neuroscientist James Rose. "But to suggest they know they what's happening to them and worry about it, that's just not the case."

Actually that may have some truth to it. How many time have we sat in a boat with a line in the water and got nothing. :rolleyes:

PETA is one of those organizations that probably really only exist to bring in money and cause trouble. As much as I hate people who abuse animals. these people and their wacko causes are waaay out in a different universe.

Besides, if God didn't intend for us to eat animals, why did He make them out of meat??

2nd Amendment
November 17, 2004, 11:39 AM
What they don't seem to understand is that I don't care if fish feel pain. Don't care if they have mental capacity far greater than ours and are only being held back by their lack of opposable thumbs(at least until they master their telekinetic ability to manipulate objects). What I care about is the fact they are stupid enough to continue to bite that hook. They therefore deserve what they get.

Werewolf
November 17, 2004, 12:00 PM
Do these PETA folks have lives? How in the world do they find the time to support these inane causes.

They can't possibly be being paid for their inanity - can they? Please someone tell me that PETA is a volunteer organization and no one is actually making a living from peddling their drivel?

Harry Tuttle
November 17, 2004, 12:44 PM
"No one would ever put a hook through a dog's or cat's mouth,"

http://www.wspa.org.uk/index.php?page=598
At this shop in Korea, cats are liquefied in a large steamer and sold as a health drink

Bobarino
November 17, 2004, 02:09 PM
HA! what a joke. obviously these schmucks have never tasted MY smoked salmon. mmmmmmmm. and the Chums are running now too. i'll be down on the river this weekend.

Bobby

halvey
November 17, 2004, 02:13 PM
These wacos try this every few years, I think I'll go shoot some carp with my bow, so I'll have something to hand out at thier demonstrations Watch out! I was doing that one time and this guy went absoutely nutso on me. Actually the same guy twice. Was one of those guys who hugged his dog a little too much. The second time he tried to get his jogging buddies to gang up on me. Thought he was going to swing at me, but he thought the better.

Cazach
November 17, 2004, 07:21 PM
I feel compelled to quote South Park:

Wendy "Dolphins are friendly and intelligent"

Cartman "Yeah friendly and intelligent on some rye bread with mayonaise!" :neener:

One of the pearls that I save up for the occassional tofu jockey is this:

How many vegetarian animals do you know of that have binocular vision? Then you usually have to explain what that means and the concept of ranging in on an object (prey).

I swear I once heard a carrot scream!

El Tejon
November 17, 2004, 07:31 PM
This is an outrage! I will not stand for this, this, this heresy! Vegetarian sushi!

Call Indianapolis, call the National Guard, get the paper on line 2! Vegetarian sushi . . . I can't speak right now, tearing up now . . .

pinblaster
November 17, 2004, 08:36 PM
I think plants are also sensitive and intellegent forms of life . I think the PETA folks should stop eating altogether . :evil: :neener:

C96
November 17, 2004, 09:16 PM
Vegetarians kill things that can neither run nor hide. That's not right.

I distinctly remember as a child ripping a carrot from the ground and I swear I
heard it scream. The terror of it all.

Art Eatman
November 17, 2004, 11:21 PM
Welll.....When you're comparing them with Pitiful PETA People, I reckon fish do come off as smart...

Art

jefnvk
November 18, 2004, 12:12 AM
Well, I certainly don't know any feshermen :neener:

Seems to me most PETA type people are college kids or deadbeats. Who else can attend rallys all day?

io333
November 18, 2004, 12:33 AM
How many vegetarian animals do you know of that have binocular vision? Then you usually have to explain what that means and the concept of ranging in on an object (prey).



I actually sympathize with PETA to some extent. I'm an occasional vegetarian, though usually a reluctant carnivore. I've never hunted, and probably never will, unless it is absolutely necessary. I probably hug my dog too much. I do think hunting one's own food is more ethical than having someone else do the dirty work. Ramble Ramble.... I guess what I really wanted to say is:

What you wrote above is an extremely keen observation. Did you come up with that yourself, or is that more or less general knowledge? Can you expand on it?

wasrjoe
November 18, 2004, 12:42 AM
As far as I know, it's a pretty basic biological fact. If you're going to chase after something, your eyeballs are going to be in front. Isn't this one of the factors paleantologists use to decide whether or not a dinosaur is a predator?

buy guns
November 18, 2004, 01:06 AM
What they don't seem to understand is that I don't care if fish feel pain. Don't care if they have mental capacity far greater than ours and are only being held back by their lack of opposable thumbs(at least until they master their telekinetic ability to manipulate objects). What I care about is the fact they are stupid enough to continue to bite that hook. They therefore deserve what they get.

:cool:

Cazach
November 18, 2004, 01:41 PM
What you wrote above is an extremely keen observation. Did you come up with that yourself, or is that more or less general knowledge? Can you expand on it?


Just general knowledge of predatory vs. prey animals. Also applies to birds.

Generally prey animals have their eyes spread out or on either side of their head to help alert them to predators. Predators typically have both eyes forward to help range and home in on a target.

Too much animal planet during my down time.

Bruce H
November 18, 2004, 02:51 PM
Affix a half ounce sinker to your best casting rod. Try for pinpoint accuracy with between the eyes casts. :evil:

BenW
November 18, 2004, 03:06 PM
Just general knowledge of predatory vs. prey animals. Also applies to birds.

Generally prey animals have their eyes spread out or on either side of their head to help alert them to predators. Predators typically have both eyes forward to help range and home in on a target.

Too much animal planet during my down time.

To add to that from what I learned back in the Dark Ages, humans became erect so that they could see prey at greater distances over the tallgrass plains in Africa (for those that believe in evolutionary theory). We are also one big, hairless sweat gland so that we can chase prey over great distances. We're not fast, but we're darn persistent. I remember my archeology professor telling us how for part of his thesis, he would run down wild goats in Hawaii. The goats would initially outrun him, but they would finally overheat and run out of endurance, and he got to the point that he could walk up and touch the goat he was chasing (animal cruelty PETA would no doubt disapprove of).

Zedicus
November 18, 2004, 10:42 PM
What's Next? Votes for Oysters??? :rolleyes:

c_yeager
November 19, 2004, 05:42 AM
I actually sympathize with PETA to some extent. I'm an occasional vegetarian, though usually a reluctant carnivore. I've never hunted, and probably never will, unless it is absolutely necessary. I probably hug my dog too much. I do think hunting one's own food is more ethical than having someone else do the dirty work. Ramble Ramble.... I guess what I really wanted to say is:

What you wrote above is an extremely keen observation. Did you come up with that yourself, or is that more or less general knowledge? Can you expand on it?

It's fairly common knowledge in biology. Having two eyes pointing in the same direction is fairly redundant, the only advantage being the ability to determine distance. Most herbavors in contrast have eyes that point outwards in order to scan more of the surrounding areading area in order to avoid predators.

It's almost enough to make one think that some animals were meant to be eaten by other animals :rolleyes:

One other thing that is fun to point out is teeth. Nothing gives a better insight into an animals diet more than the construction of its teeth. This is how dinosaurs are generally classified. Grass eaters have big blocky teeth used for grinding grass etc. Carnivors have canines for grabbing/killing prey as well as relatively sharp teeth for tearing meat.

Furthermore the general construction of an animals lends insight into its eating habits. The most obvious case being the giraffe (sp) with its long neck to reach vegitation in the treetops. Grazing animals are built close to be able to reach easily to the ground to graze. I actually had some fitness nut tell me that people were meant to graze. I asked him if God gave him a pair of kneepads because he sure skipped me. I didnt even discuss sterioscopic vision or the construction of our teeth since he was already confused.

Long story short, the human body was built to catch, kill, and eat other animals. What makes us special is that we are adapted to do so with tools.

publius
November 20, 2004, 09:04 PM
I'm an omnivore.

Other biological items:

the digestive system. Cows have 4 stomachs and put their grazings through quite a process. We have hydrochloric acid in our 1 stomach. Guess who is more similar to a wolf in that regard?

Also, keep in mind that Tofu kills (http://www.lewrockwell.com/fontova/fontova40.html). ;)

Ryder
November 20, 2004, 09:15 PM
"No one would ever put a hook through a dog's or cat's mouth,"

Don't see why not. They use chickens to bait sharks, cats and dogs aren't much bigger. ;)


My Brittany got a fish hook caught in between her toes once. She didn't seem to mind too much but the vet bill sure bothered me. :what:

Rumpled
November 21, 2004, 12:31 AM
If God ( or your interpration therof, or evolution itself) didn't intend for me to eat meat, why do I have the teeth to do th job?
PETA - People for the Eating of Tasty Animals

Flyboy
November 21, 2004, 02:07 AM
Listen up brothers and sisters come hear my desperate tale
I speak of our friends of nature trapped in the dirt like a jail
Vegetables live in oppression, served on our tables each night
This killing of veggies is madness, I say we take up the fight
Salads are only for murderers, coleslaw's a fascist regime
Don't think that they don't have feelings, just cause a radish can't scream

Chorus:
I've heard the screams of the vegetables (scream, scream, scream)
Watching their skins being peeled (having their insides revealed)
Grated and steamed with no mercy (burning off calories)
How do you think that feels (bet it hurts really bad)
Carrot juice constitutes murder (and that's a real crime)
Greenhouses prisons for slaves (let my vegetables go)
It's time to stop all this gardening (it's dirty as hell)
Let's call a spade a spade (is a spade is a spade is a spade)

I saw a man eating celery, so I beat him black and blue
If he ever touches a sprout again, I'll bite him clean in two
I'm a political prisoner, trapped in a windowless cage
Cause I stopped the slaughter of turnips by killing five men in a rage
I told the judge when he sentenced me, "This is my finest hour,
I'd kill those farmers again just to save one more cauliflower"

Chorus

How low as people do we dare to stoop,
Making young broccolis bleed in the soup?
Untie your beans, uncage your tomatoes
Let potted plants free, don't mash that potato!

I've heard the screams of the vegetables (scream, scream, scream)
Watching their skins being peeled (fates in the stir-fry are sealed)
Grated and steamed with no mercy (you fat gourmet slob)
How do you think that feels? (leave them out in the field)
Carrot juice constitutes murder (V8's genocide)
Greenhouses prisons for slaves (yes, your composts are graves)
It's time to stop all this gardening (take up macrame)
Let's call a spade a spade
(is a spade, is a spade, is a spade, is a spade......)


--The Arrogant Worms (http://www.arrogant-worms.com/), "Carrot Juice is Murder," Live Bait, 1997

Libertyteeth
November 21, 2004, 03:08 AM
I remember reading several years ago of some gents in Noo Yawk City who were engaged in fly fishing for rats. They made sure to bring along ladders so they could retreat if a big male rat took offense to being hooked.

As one who regularly impales helpless fishies on a sharp hook by way of deception and subterfuge as a form of heartless sport, I am just embarassed to no end that the higher beings inhabiting the urban blue areas have figured out that this is going on and have shaken their finger at us.

And as a heartless carnivore, I regret to say that I have yet to eat a dog. Or a house cat, though I have eaten mountain lion (excellent!), as well as racoon, porcupine, muskrat, several kinds of rabbit, squirrels, bear, beaver, etc., etc.

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