Busting Clays in Waltz Time....

[Dave McCracken]

We had shot International Skobble with humbling effect. A great way to discover weak spots in our shooting, and two of the Geezer League members were practicing up for box birds with money on the line. Sated for the nonce, we were leaning on and about the fence discussing shooting.

One of our senior Geezers, an octogenerian who moved slow as justice until he called for the bird, had demolished an impressive number of clays.After he left,, we talked of him with affection and hopes that we, A, lasted that long and B, still had that much fun shooting clays.

One of us mentioned that our SG still had good rythym. Another said that probably that was the last essential of good shooting to go, well after eyesight and strength, even after co-ordination. Heads nodded in agreement.

Rythym is probably the part of shooting that gets the least attention. Since it occurs without conscious thought, we just don't think about it much. Maybe that's a mistake.

Thinks of this. We walk over level ground to a 1-2 beat. When we come to stairs, we climb them to a 1-2-3 beat. We run over level ground to a 1-2-3-4 beat. The musicians among us can think of things done to other rythyms.

Wingshooting happens to a 3/4 time, just like waltzes. One hotshot SC instructor has a method he calls "Move,Mount, Shoot". One British method teaches a 3 part shot sequence that's similar, with the trigger pulled just as the butt touches the shoulder. Others among us have discovered that every shooter has a best rythym for a given shot, and that once we find that rythym, the shot becomes easier.

Disagree? Put a copy of Pink Floyd's hit "Money" on and dance to it. It's in 7/4 time, and folks that can dance to it are quite rare. Or if your tastes run more to Jazz, try "Take Five" by the Dave Brubeck Quartet. 5/4 time.

Watch a good shotgunner shooting a familiar game or presentation. He/she can shoot the thing in several ways, varying break point, swing speed,etc. They settle on one speed and rythym, and break the birds with a machine like consistency.

Now, imagine a tyro standing at Post 3 on a trap range with the trap locked down for straightaways or Low 7 at skeet, trying to hit the clays. You can see them struggle for a bit, then start connecting. As they do it more regularly, you can see the rythym take shape. They adjust without thinking about it until the shot's a gimme.

To oversimplify, good shotgunning boils down to good rythym. The 24-30" pattern compensates for less than perfect swing speed or lead. It also makes up for slight miscalculations in best break or hold points. But if the rythym is bad, the shot goes awry.

So if a shot is giving you trouble, check and see how your rythym is on that shot. There may be a better hold or break point that fits into your personal style.

Questions, comments?....

[ACP230]

What about those of us who can't dance?

[TrapperReady]

Hmmm...

My wife says I can't dance, but I shoot OK. Maybe when we're on the dance floor, I should think about trap. Couldn't hurt. :uhoh:

BTW, Dave, it's an interesting viewpoint, and I believe something that flows from practice and familiarity. Watch a new shooter on a trap line, and you'll see almost all of their movements are uncoordinated and slow. Loading the gun, getting into position, and taking the shot, they just don't seem smooth.

Then watch someone who's done it tens of thousands of times (or more). There is little wasted motion. Everything flows and seems almost elegant. As odd as it sounds, your analogy to dance holds up quite well. As long as I don't have to shoot in a tu-tu. :barf: :)

Oh yeah, BA/UU/R. :D

[halvey]

I've always thought of rhythm for trap as more of a pitcher's rhythm in baseball. Maybe "groove" is a better word. Shoot, eject shell, grab new shell, etc. It drives me nuts when the guy next to me has a misfire or a clay comes out busted so they have to rethrow. Watch a pitcher who's really into the groove and to me it's the same thing.

The shooting part is easy, its all the little stuff before that.

That said, when I shoot pins, I just step up and shoot. I've gotten a lot better since I started doing that. But for some reason in trap, I can't seem to just shoot. Maybe it's the others around me?

[sm]

Humm...interesting analogy Dave. I guess that explains why some folks can't shoot- they grew up during the Disco era and danced to the Bee Gees. :D

OOPs!

Though I can't dance and never took music appreciation , I do know how to snuggle up close and appreciate the anatomy of the opposite sex...they call it slow dancing...call it what you want, but shotgunning ain't on my mind.

Yes I have a "sequence" - a ryhthm if you will. Be it for clays or afield. Encompasses my walking up to target ,to aquistition of target, to firing on said target / game.

"Bellybuttonbang" is part of it. "Painting" them out of the sky is part of it.

I grew up with ...Excuse me while I kiss the sky... Hendrix

:D

[12-34hom]

Pheasants & quail are reaction - ducks call for ballistics.

One of my best friends was one of the absolute best wing shooter i ever had the privilege to hunt with, & did not have a rhythmic bone in his body...

But there were not enough ooooooo's in smooth for the way he handeled a shotgun, i witnessed some shots of his on ducks & geese to this day i still don't believe he made!

12-34hom.

[tall2tango]

Thanx for sharing this line of thinking, Dave. I hadn't given it much thought, but one does fall into a certain pattern/rhythm of doing things - like shooting clays, or even those paper things they call targets - once the original confusion is sorted out. It's worked that way for me when cycling, scuba diving, making meals, and even dancing. The conclusion I draw is that since I managed to become reasonably proficient in those activities - and though I never thought I'd be able to Waltz, it become my favorite dance step - I still have a chance at shooting clays with some proficiency. :)

BTW, I read a number of forums and this one on THR is the ONLY one where I see a Moderator regularly posting instructional info. Thanx for sharing your experience and insights, particularly for those of us who are pretty new to this sport. Kudos and BR...

[Smoke]

You guys are way over my head. :confused:

I can two-step OK...wife says I can't, but other ladies have complimented me.
I love Pink Floyd, especially Money...never considered it a dancing tune....never bothered to think "Why?"

Maybe if I work on my dancing more it will pay off come dove season.

"excuse me miss....want to dance?

Smoke

[BozemanMT]

When I first shot a shotgun (about 2 months ago :D ) the guy who was showing me what to do was like "i dont' shoot trap anymore, too serious"
I'm like what?
He says, you get in a rhythm and if you blow it they get real mad (he's pretty serious, so I could see how this happens)
I didn't understand.
now, I've been shooting a lot of trap over the past 2 months (ohhh, about 3000 hulls or so, this has been very very bad for my wallet) and I totally understand now.
Totally.
If you shoot with the same group of people, you can tell who's going to blow it (or really mess it up), but if your group is good, it's just PULL, bang, PULL, bang, PULL, bang.

NIce.

[Bullet Bob]

How about marches? I understand that J.P. Sousa was a heck of a shotgunner.

[Preacherman]

How about Ravel's "Bolero?"

Oops - sorry - wrong sport! :D

[sm]

Preacherman went right over my head - don't take much to do that tho'with me. Him being all learned and educated and all...didn't take much for him to do so :p

Okay is who is the THR Trip Planner? I cannot explain what I do - I can show you . :D

Smoke, the last two step I did was either at Micky Gilley's in Houston or the Anatole in Dallas...and the Anatole did not have a band...had an open bar tho'. :p I wasn't thinking about shotgunning either. Not really sure what I was thinking, or what actually happened....

Hard to explain, I have this "repetition of movements" I do as I mentioned earlier. Now when I competed, serious stuff, I tuned out the other shooters, I was in my own world of focus...peripherally I was aware of others, the sound of shot...I just " knew" when my turn to step up and bust 'em. I ( and my old squad) shot a round pretty fast compared to most folks.

Now shooting for semi serious,or for fun, I can joke , talk , laugh...then when I step up the focus is there, folks say I "change to my game face, I shoot and the face is gone and go back to horsing around.

Hunting...kinda a mixture...folks suspect I'm gonna do something, but I mount gun to face from low gun and though it is a slow smooth mount ( to me anyways) folks say it happens really quick. Telltell sign is my foot movements some say...I have a way of getting postitoned no matter what I shoot ( competition, fun , game) that tips off folks.

It is said I have the near exact positioning "movements" when shooting a handgun or rifle. " You remind me of a boxer " I was told by my ex wife and and old shooting pard. The ex said my eyes get more green when I get a certain mindset. I think that was a good thing. :)

I can understand what Dave is bringing to our attention, I just can't express it.

I guess it is like the "habitual movements" one does without realizing it . Shaving, tying shoes, the way one unlocks a door and gets in a vehicle...

[Dave McCracken]

Thnaks for the responses, folks, even the humorous ones.

A coupla things...

FYI. both NFL linemen and Martial Arts pros take ballet classes for improving balance and timing. No, they didn't have to wear tutus. Watch old tapes of Barishnikof to see how power and grace blend. He, BTW, has some belts in MA.A skinny foreign guy who works in tights may need to fight more than some of us.

Tai Chi, the gentlest of the martial arts, emphasizes smooth movements over speed. Once the move is mastered, speed shows up by itself.

TR, when live Shotgun 101 happens at PGC, I urge the newbies to watch certain shooters I point out. I say something like" Watch the big guy on Post 2. Note that there's no extra motion, he makes a short, smooth, economical swing and smokes the bird".....

Halvey, watch an experienced trap squad with good rythym sometimes. The good ones can stop when a glitch occurs, and pick right up after. The top squads at the Grand, the ones that go 500X500, shoot like that. The old trap cliche of "The better the folks you shoot with shoot, the better you shoot"
has some basis in fact.

sm, I don't dance well, though Mom sent me to classes. Her reason was quite plain. If I was going to be this big, I should be well co-ordinated because clumsiness is costly. Only partially successful. These days I just hold Mrs McC while SHE dances.

Bob, he was. Dunno about marches.

Tall 2, thanks. Lots of people helped me get to this point. I like to pass it along and pay it forward.

Preacher, I wouldn't divulge my experiences in indoor sports under the influence of Ravel to a man of the cloth outside the confessional. Let me just say it works....

Back to the subject at hand. Focus on developing your shooting rythym and see what happens. If you already have a good rythym. be more conscious of it.

[sm]

Ma'am , may I have this dance?

" Hey fella what are you doing?" <SLAP>

Well hell, there goes that theory - I figured If held a lady to dance like I do a shotgun- which I shoot with ryhthm...

It is all Dave's fault....

I'm sticking with shotguns, I can figure them out better than women... :D

[TrapperReady]

If you already have a good rythym. be more conscious of it.


Dave - I'm not so sure about this piece of advice. Returning to the dance analogy... on those rare occasions when I'm on a dance floor and moving around smoothly, if I think about it, then I rapidly fall out of rhythm. Similarly, when I'm shooting trap or clays, if I'm thinking about my form, it's not a good thing.

IMO, rhythm flows from subconcious movements bred from repetition and practice. I would tend to say, if you have good rhythm, keep doing what you're doing. If you don't then it's just another reason to BA/UU/R.

The more these threads get discussed, the more it seems that the best thing to do is shoot, and shoot a lot.

BTW, the one area I see the dance analogy break down is in the area of alcohol consumption. For me, I adhere to a strict "no alcohol until all shooting is done" policy. On the other hand, dancing is typically reserved only for those times when I've had so much that I don't mind the embarassment at the moment, and won't remember it the next day.

[Dave McCracken]

"More conscious" of one's rhythm means adding it to the checklist of things to check when shots go awry. Like headlifting and stopping the swing.

WHile BA/UU/R does apply, the best results come from best technique and form.

[sm]

Rule of Five.

It is said there are five things one must do correctly in order to hit with a shotgun.