[orangeninja]

I thought this was an interesting read.




SUBJECT: Weapons Possessed by the Branch Davidians
In total, the Texas Department of Public Safety, led by the Texas
Rangers, recovered more than 300 firearms from the Branch
Davidian compound. In addition, a number of live grenades and
more than 300 grenade components were uncovered. Hundreds of
thousands of rounds of ammunition were also seized.
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms investigated David
Koresh for conduct involving: the illegal manufacture of machine
guns and the illegal manufacture and possession of destructive
devices. The FBI report provides evidence that the Davidians'
arsenal did indeed include weapons unlawfully manufactured. The
weapons listed include semiautomatic firearms illegally modified
to fire in full automatic mode, as well as grenades and
silencers. All of these weapons were unlawfully possessed.
I hope you find these documents useful as you review Treasury's
report on ATF's role in events at Waco.
WEAPONS RECOVERED FROM THE BRANCH DAVIDIAN COMPOUND:
TREASURY SUMMARY OF REPORT PREPARED BY THE FBI FOR PROSECUTORS
AND THE TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY

ILLEGAL WEAPONS RECOVERED
Machine guns
The FBI determined that 46 semiautomatic firearms had been
modified to fire in full automatic mode:
22 M-16 Type Rifles
20 AK-47 Type Rifles
2 Heckler and Koch SP-89
2 M-11/Nine
The FBI also determined that two AR-15 lower receivers had been
modified to fire in full automatic mode.
Silencers
21 Sound suppressors or silencers
Hand Grenades
4 Live M-21 Practice Hand Grenades

The possession of lawfully manufactured machineguns, silencers,
or grenades requires the owner to register the weapon with the
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms. None of the compound's
residents were registered to own such a weapon, therefore it
would have been illegal for them to possess these weapons.
WEAPONS RECOVERED FROM THE BRANCH DAVIDIAN COMPOUND:
TREASURY SUMMARY OF REPORT PREPARED BY THE FBI FOR PROSECUTORS
AND THE TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY

TOTAL WEAPONS RECOVERED
(Including Weapons Mentioned on Previous Page)
FIREARMS
Rifles and Rifle Components
61 M-16 Type and 2 M-16 Lower Receivers
61 AK-47 Type
34 AR-15 Type and 2 AR-15 Lower Receivers
13 Shotguns -- 12 gauge
11 7.62MM FN FAL Type
10 Mini-14 Type
7 37mm. Flare Gun/Launcher Type
6 .30 Carbine Calber US Carbine, Model M1
6 Assorted Rifles
5 M-11/Nine
5 M-14 Type
3 Galil
2 Heckler and Koch SP-89
1 Air Rifle
1 Heckler and Koch MP-5
1 Sten submachine gun

Pistols and Revolvers
23 Beretta
13 Glock
8 Assorted Revolvers
6 Safari Arms
6 Assorted Pistols
5 Sig Sauer
5 Walther
2 Taurus
EXPLOSIVES
Hand Grenades
4 Live M-21 Practice Hand Grenades
100+ Modified M-21 Practice Hand Grenade bodies; the bodies
of these had been threaded and plugged but lacked a main charge
or fusing system.
11 M-69 Practice Hand Grenades; the bodies of these
grenades exhibited indications of attempted modifications.
219 Grenade Safety Pins
243 Grenade Safety Levers
Rifle Grenades
200+ Inert M31 Practice Rifle Grenades.

FIREARMS ACCESSORIES AND PARTS
Silencers
21 Sound suppressors or silencers.
Flash Suppressors
18 Flash Suppressors.
Firearms Barrels
17 M-16/AR-15 Type (5.56mm)
8 M-16/AR-15 Type (9mm caliber)
3 M-16/AR-15 Type (.45 ACP caliber)
1 M-16/AR-15 Type (5.56mm)
2 Ruger. 22 Caliber
1 M-60 machine gun
1 12 Gauge Shotgun
1 Taurus, Model 92, 9mm pistol barrel
1 Sig Sauer 9mm pistol barrel
Pistol Slides
1 Sig Sauer Model
Revolver Parts
1 .38 Special caliber cylinder
Bolt Carriers
39 M-16
24 AR-15
2 MP-5
2 AK-47
1 FAL
1 Unknown
Bolts
15 AK-47
7 .22 LR conversion
3 M-16/AR-15
1 FN FAL (1)
Bolt Assemblies
3 M-11/Nine
2 M-16
1 AR-15
1 MAC-10
1 Shotgun
Recoil Springs and Guides
3 Glock
2 Sig Sauer
1 Beretta
1 M-11/Nine
Stripper Clips
29 Stripper Clips
Accessories
6 .22 LR Caliber Conversion Kits
Hammers
31 AK-47
18 M-16
12 AR-15
4 M-11/Nine
2 Sig Sauer
1 Beretta
Hammer Springs
3 AK-47

Buffer/Recoil Springs
36 M-16/AR-15
4 AK-47
Selector Switches
9 M-16
3 AR-15
1 Unknown
Sears
1 M-11/Nine
Auto Sears
8 AK-47
4 M-16
1 FN FAL

Auto Sear Springs
12 AK-47
Disconnects
7 AK-47
1 M-16
Trigger/Trigger Mechanisms/Trigger Housings
17 M-16
6 AR-15
3 M-60
3 M-11/Nine
2 MP-5
2 Sten
1 AK-47
1 Heckler & Koch
1 M-14
1 Smith & Wesson
1 Beretta
1 Shotgun
Ammunition Magazines
289 7.62 x 39mm AK-47 Type
248 .223/5.56mm M-16/AR-15 Type
108 Sten Gun Type
88 .308 Caliber FN FAL Type
72 M-14 Type
61 Beretta Model Type 92
58 .308 Caliber of Unknown Type
28 Ruger Mini-14 Type
22 .22 Caliber
17 UZI Type
16 USAS-12 Type
13 .45 Caliber
11 Glock
11 MP-5
11 Sig Sauer P226/P228
9 Unknown Type
7 .308 Caliber Galil Type
6 Walther PPK
5 9mm Unknown Type
4 .50 Caliber
3 .30 Caliber U.S. Carbine
3 .380 Auto Caliber
2 9mm Smith & Wesson
1 AK-74 Type
1 Grendel
Ammunition Containers
220 Metal Boxes (Various Calibers)
15 Wooden Boxes (Various Calibers)
4 Buckets (Varioius Calibers)
1 Cardboard Boxes (Various Calibers)
Magazine Springs
360 M-16/AR-15
42 FN FAL .308 Caliber Type
35 AK-47
28 9mm Magazine Springs of Unknown Type
15 Unknown
10 M-14
6 M-1 Carbine
3 .50 Caliber
1 Mini-14 Magazine
1 Glock
These lists do not include dozens of other items recovered from
the Compound such as dust covers, extractors, front and rear
sights, gun cleaning equipment, bolt release levers,
compensators, .50 caliber belt links and numerous other parts.

[cfabe]

Now THAT was an arsenal, wow.

[Darkmind]

Sounds like they had good taste to me. :D

[ny32182]

They pulled all of that from the burn compound?

Surprised it didn't melt...

[GoWyo!]

I've read the list twice and I don't see any .50's listed. I distinctly remember the media and the G-men stating that the helo's were taking fire from .50's in the towers of the compound. Or am I dilusional?

[Jim K]

When was that report released? Last I heard BATFE was keeping all the Branch Davidian stuff in a sealed warehouse and would not let any outsider, even the Rangers, near it. The result was that there was no objective evidence that any illegal weapons were in the compound. I am not normally given to government conspiracy theories, but with the "Coverup Clinton" administration involved ("Would I lie to you?"), I wonder if this report can be trusted.

I do note the "piling on" by listing every tiny gun part and by listing guns and gun parts that were and are entirely legal to possess. It is just another version of the "tables full of guns" that Higgins wanted to show on TV to make Clinton happy and get more money and power for his bureau.

Jim

[LiquidTension]

After researching the Waco incident for several research papers, I don't put any faith in the government's "findings" related to the incident. After that debacle they'd say anything to try to save face. Watch video from the senate hearings afterwards - they hold up an AK that supposedly came from the compound. The same compound that burned to the ground, and burned so hot that it melted various metal fixtures inside. The AK they displayed was in PERFECT condition, including polished wood and perfect bluing. Doesn't that strike you as a bit odd?

Even if that whole list were correct, it still didn't justify the killing of over 75 people. Tax violations, nothing more.

[50 Shooter]

GoWyo,
The .50 BMG myth is just that, a myth.

I'm not sure where it started, probably by VPC or Frankenswine, Bradybunch.... Take your pick.

[The Grand Inquisitor]

Well, if these people had guns like that, which only evil people have, the good, never self-serving, government and always honest ATF had perfect reason to go and kill all of those people.

G_d bless the ATF.

[CentralTexas]

I don't believe the list, I've never seen any credible evidence of any of the charges yet. A great book debunking the whole thing is "This is not a seige" I think was the title, well documented also
CT

[Preacherman]

Errr... I don't think the .50 BMG thing was a myth. One of the FBI HRT snipers at the scene mentioned, in a book he later wrote, that they spotted a Barrett .50 BMG sniper rifle, and mentions that there were believed to be two of them in the Davidian's possession. However, I don't see them listed in the inventory at the beginning of this thread. Wonder if some LE type has a Barrett "souvenir" of the siege? :confused:

[50 Shooter]

And they never fired any shots in anger either or started the fire. :neener:

When they can produce 1 .50 from the compound they might seem to be more credible. Heck from my vantage point I saw Koresh holding an RPG, didn't everyone else? :what: ;)

[Diggler]

No 1911's?

[feedthehogs]

I'm sure in all ways possible that this list is true and factual, signed Janet Reno.

;)

[molonlabe]

And I beleive in pristine bullets too. :rolleyes:

And they picked all this crap out of the bulldozed and burned crime scene?

[kfranz]

By my calculations, the BD's owed less than 15k worth of taxes, plus a bit for associated licensing fees. Wonder how much the seige set us back, dollar wise?

[cordex]

The book Preach is talking about is Cold Zero. Darn fine read.

The scariest thing on that list is the one cardboard box of various calibers.

The events at Waco are a good example of what happens when one group of heavily armed crazies is confronted by another group of heavily armed crazies.

[cerberus]

All us honest firearm owners are now paying the price for all that bad press. Crazy people and firearms just don't make a good mix. :uhoh:

[Psssniper]

I dont remember how many people lived at the BD's place but I would guess that if you add up all the guns and divided by the number of people it would only average 3-4 per. Whats the average THR's gun count?? Most likely much higher than the average BD's

[WT]

I believe the list is a myth. The defense attorneys were not permitted to review the firearms evidence. They could not bring in their expert witnesses to confirm the accuracy of the list.

[HankB]

This is a list produced by the same government that swore up and down no flammable tear gas shells were used on the Davidians.

This stood up until expended flammable tear gas munitions were found in the evidence gathered after the fire.

Some credibility. :rolleyes:

[mack]

As it stands we will never know if the Davidians really had "illegal" weapons or not -

"Your Honor the defendents were in possession of these illegal weapons - but the defense cannot examine the evidence - just take our word for it."

Kind of like charging someone for forgery but not allowing the defense to examine the allegedly forged document that is the basis of the case against them.


Amazing, but then they somehow lost the front door too.

I remember when it happened and I recall the assertion that the Davidians had 50 caliber weapons - guess not.

I'm not really a fan of the Davidians or their choices - but there were children in the building - families - and one might expect more from one's government than a cheap publicity photo-op lethal force assault to garner publilc support for an struggling agency (when they could have simply walked up to the door - talked - delivered a warrant and taken away anyone they wanted to talk to and then later charged or arrested them) rather than a military style assault on a building filled with innocent women, chidren, and families - followed by an even more disasterous assault by pumping in lethal amounts of disorienting and disabling gas in a confined space with the risk of fire and which ultimately lead to the death of the majority of the men, women, and children. I don't know if the government started any fires or wanted to cause the deaths they did - but I can see why some believe that they did - because it is readily apparent that there was/is a cover-up and attempted whitewash of facts and evidence in the case. All I can say is that the more I have learned about what happened at WACO the more disgusted and appalled I am - still no serious government investigation has ever taken place and no serious independent investigation has been allowed, (through some good people have tried like hell to do so and have gotten access to more evidence than was initally accessible) - as much key evidence has been locked away, lost, or deliberately destroyed.

Sorry for the rant - when the whole thing happened I bought the whole media and government spin on the story - and it took alot for me to begin to see the other side. I just don't abide being lied to very well - by people in positions of public trust.

On the list of weapons - my attempt at a lighter note here - I can't say I like their choice in firearms - too many light to medium size calibers in rifle and pistol and not enough heavier - 45 pistol and 308 or above rifle calibers. Also not enough JMB designs - 1911's, BAR's, Ma Duece's, ect...

[JamisJockey]

I'm still confused. Why was the ATF there for a child abuse warrant???
:scrutiny:

[molonlabe]

and one might expect more from one's government than a cheap publicity photo-op lethal force assault to garner publilc support for an struggling agency (when they could have simply walked up to the door - talked - delivered a warrant and taken away anyone they wanted to talk to and then later charged or arrested them)
Or even arrested him in town.

I suspect that is the crux of it and the rest is damage control.

And yes. Child abuse was on their warrant.

[Number 6]

I'm still confused. Why was the ATF there for a child abuse warrant???

This is because there was evidence that David Koresh was molesting children in the compound. A fact that is often overlooked in the debate. Why the ATF and not another agency was there I do not necessarily know, but I assume they just assumed jurisdiction because of the weapons violations.

[cheygriz]

The events at Waco are a good example of what happens when one group of heavily armed crazies is confronted by another group of heavily armed crazies.


My friend, you just hit the nail on the head!!! :evil: :evil: :evil:

[JamisJockey]

This is because there was evidence that David Koresh was molesting children in the compound. A fact that is often overlooked in the debate. Why the ATF and not another agency was there I do not necessarily know, but I assume they just assumed jurisdiction because of the weapons violations.
Therein lies the rub...there was no warrant for firearms violations....therefore the ATF did not have jurisdiction. They wanted a standoff and they wanted to become the big boys on the block....

[ballistic gelatin]

Well at least they put the "offering plate" to good use by purchasing firearms. My church purchases paper and pens and stuff like that....

[rock jock]

I had a rather long response to this thread, but I decided long ago that the fervor with which those who cling to the conspriacy theories of Waco hold to their beliefs is akin to a religion, and for the same reasons.

[Jesse308]

Alduro, what source did you get this info from?

[orangeninja]

"Alduro, what source did you get this info from?"


Believe it or not www.about.com I was looking up information on Hi Powers because I've been thinking of getting one. Do a search, I'm sure you'll find it.

[olyAR73]

This is because there was evidence that David Koresh was molesting children in the compound. A fact that is often overlooked in the debate. Why the ATF and not another agency was there I do not necessarily know, but I assume they just assumed jurisdiction because of the weapons violations.

gov.com did a stellar job of intervening on behalf of the "children".

Would someone please define "live genade?" Smoke, frag, WP?
The government is so full of BS. They've been trying to cover they're tracks since day one. The FBI ADMITTED to altering evidence.

[Jesse308]

Thanks, Alduro :D

[WilderBill]

I think most of that list is BS.
Does anyone else remember the day after the fire was out, when the media was first allowed in?
There, for all the world to see, was a perfect M1919 machine gun, with tripod, sitting atop the rubble.
Odd that it wasn't even covered in smoke?! :scrutiny:
You'd think that if they had something like that, that they woulda used it at some point, huh? :rolleyes:

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

How could anyone identify all of that stuf after the raging fire that destroyed the place? Did they sift through the ash afterwards to sort the gun-bits out of the rest of the debris? What about the ammunition and grenades, wouldn't they explode or something in such a fire?

I'm not trying to support any kind of conspiracy, or suggest that the list is bogus. I'm just curious. Could that stuff actually be identified after a fire? If so, how? Is forensic science really that good?

[DMF]

Therein lies the rub...there was no warrant for firearms violations....therefore the ATF did not have jurisdiction. They wanted a standoff and they wanted to become the big boys on the block....BS, there were TWO warrants. An arrest warrant for Vernon Howell, for the federal firearms violations, and a search warrant to look for the illegal full auto weapons, and grenades. However, ATF was not just going to ignore other crimes, including evidence of child abuse.

The two warrants, also makes this "pick him up in town" stuff pure BS, also. They had to go out to "Ranch Apocalypse" (as Howell liked to call it), because they had to search for the weapons.

Here's how it works folks, when the feds go to the federal magistrate for a warrant, they tell the judge everything, including stuff that establishes probable cause on state charges, in addition to the federal charges. Same thing happens when the state LEOs go to the magistrate, they don't just ignore the federal violations, they tell the judge everything in addition to the state charges.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, mistakes were made in the raid, the deaths in the raid, and at the end of the 51 day stand off were tragedies, but let's not pretend the ATF didn't have a reason to be there serving both those warrants. Let's also not pretend that the tragedy was not started by Vernon Wayne Howell and his followers, when they murdered 4 ATF Special Agents who were there serving two valid warrants.
Leave aside for the moment whether ATF commanders did in fact determine the morning of the raid that Koresh had been tipped off they were coming and tragically led the agents into an ambush, as the Treasury report concluded. Assume for the sake of argument that the raid commanders should have reached that conclusion and canceled the raid. The fact is, the raid wasn't canceled. By what perverted sense of logic or legality does it somehow follow, as some have argued, that because the ATF made a mistake in not aborting the raid, the Davidians were therefore entitled to offer armed resistance and kill the agents as they arrived to serve legal, court-ordered warrants?

- Former ATF Director Higgins

[DMF]

By my calculations, the BD's owed less than 15k worth of taxes, plus a bit for associated licensing fees. Wonder how much the seige set us back, dollar wise?
Hmm, you think it was about the $200 transfer tax? Well let's look at what was really going on at the place Vernon Howell had decided to call Ranch Apocalypse:

Howell, had decided to assemble an arsenal of illegal weapons which included:
WEAPONS RECOVERED FROM THE BRANCH DAVIDIAN COMPOUND: TREASURY SUMMARY OF REPORT PREPARED BY THE FBI FOR PROSECUTORS AND THE ILLEGAL WEAPONS RECOVERED

Machine Guns

The FBI determined that 46 semiautomatic firearms had been modified to fire in full automatic mode:

22 M-16 Type Rifles

20 AK-47 Type Rifles

2 Heckler and Koch SP-89

2 M-11/Nine

The FBI also determined that two AR-15 lower receivers had been modified to fire in full automatic mode.

Silencers

21 Sound suppressors or silencers

Hand Grenades

4 Live M-21 Practice Hand Grenades


The possession of lawfully manufactured machineguns, silencers, or grenades requires the owner to register the weapon with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms. None of the compound's residents were registered to own such a weapon, therefore it would have been illegal for them to possess these weapons.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/treasury.html But maybe Howell was just an innocent hobbyist who liked hand grenades, full-auto weapons, and silencers, and was so devoted to his RKBA that he thought he would ignore the law?

Sure because your average innocent hobbyist has violent shootouts with people over who will run the local church :
Koresh had an affair with Lois, the geriatric prophetess and the couple travelled to Israel. She died in 1986, leaving Koresh and her son George to fight for control of the sect. Koresh stormed the compound, shot George in the chest and won. The new prophet was acquitted of attempted murder on a technicality.

http://www.thebiographychannel.co.uk/new_site/biography.php?id=776&showgroup=196
I also don't think innocent hobbyists have sex with children:
The following are excerpts from materials compiled by the FBI during the standoff providing examples of Koresh's historical (i.e., pre-February 28, 1993) sexual practices with young girls.

a) From ATF Affidavit in Support of Arrest of Koresh

From ATF Special Agent Aguilera's interview of former compound resident Jeannine Bunds, included in Agent Aguilera's affidavit in support of the Koresh arrest warrant, February 25, 1993:

"Ms. Bunds also told me that Howell had fathered at least fifteen (15) children with various women and young girls at the compound. Some of the girls who had babies fathered by Howell were as young as 12 years old. She had personally delivered seven (7) of these children.

According to Ms. Bunds, Howell annuls all marriages of couples who join his cult. He then has exclusive sexual access to the women. He also, according to Ms. Bunds, has regular sexual relations with young girls there. The girls' ages are from eleven (11) years old to adulthood."

b) From Interview by Texas Social Worker

Joyce Sparks, Children's Protective Services Investigations supervisor, Waco, interviewed a young girl, a former compound resident, on February 22, 1993:

"[She] entered the cult when she was about three or four years old. . . .

We asked her if she could think of any reason that any of the children at the compound would not be safe and as we got into this discussion, she brought up the topic of sexual abuse. She described herself as special and treated differently than other children. She talked about spending time alone with David and although this was 'scary' she felt 'privileged.'

She explained to us that on one occasion, when she was ten years old, her mother left her in a motel room with David Koresh. He was in bed and he told [her] to come over to him. She got into the bed. David had no pants on. He took off her panties and touched her and then got on top of her. . . .

We talked about how she was feeling when this happened and she responded . . . 'scared.' When asked what else she felt, she responded . . . 'privileged.' When asked what David would do if he knew she was telling us about this, [she] rolled her eyes and said . . . 'I wouldn't even want to think about it.'

We asked if she knew about any other girls who had experienced this and she said yes. She reported that she knew about Michelle Jones. When asked how she knew this, she explained that David had talked about having sex with Michelle when she was fourteen. He told in a Bible study once what it was like when he had sex with Michelle."

Michelle Jones died inside the compound on April 19, 1993.

c) From 1990 Affidavit of Former Davidian Ian Manning

"I was told that Vernon was sleeping with Michelle Jones, now currently fifteen years of age. . . .

I have seen Aisha Gyarfas come out of various rooms with Vernon where he slept that night. Vernon brags about having slept with her. She is now only fourteen years of age."

Aisha Gyarfas died inside the compound on April 19, 1993.

d) From 1990 Affidavit of Former Davidian Alison Manning

"Vernon claims to have permission from God to have more than one wife and although he is legally married to one woman (Rachel Olivia Jones) he has sexual relations . . . with other women -two of which were minors at the time of his first encounters with Vernon has also discussed his relations with Aisha Gyarfas (an Australian girl of fourteen years of age), stating that on their first sexual encounter her heart was beating so fast and hard he could hear it. Once taken as his new 'wife' these girls were involved in continuing relations with Vernon, intermittently being taken into his bedroom to spend the evening with him."

http://www.usdoj.gov/05publications/waco/wacoseven.html

There is also this:
A FOURTEEN-YEAR OLD girl has helped to demolish the myth that the dead Branch Davidian cult leader David Koresh was a martyr destroyed by a ruthless FBI operation at Waco, Texas, in April 1995.

In evidence to Congress, which is investigating the episode, Kiri Jewel described how the self-proclaimed messiah used the sect as a cover for rape. . .

. . . Kiri said that she slept with Koresh and her mother in one bed. She recalled a childhood friend who, at the age of 14, "has a baby for David".

There was an uneasy silence in the congressional chamber as Kiri began to talk of her first sexual encounter with the cult leader at a motel in Waco when she was 10. . .

. . . Recounting more of her sexual initiation, she said that he used Biblical quotations to explain himself. He told her that, "King David from the Bible would sleep with young virgins to keep him warm."


She said: "I had known this would happen sometime, so I just laid there and stared at the ceiling. I was 10 when this happened."

http://www.rickross.com/reference/waco/waco4.html

Yeah, he was just a fine "fellow American" who didn't pay his transfer tax.

[Tharg]

Funny - how does the ATF get involved in a Child Abuse situation....

some would say fire-arms violations.... but how would they KNOW there were violations till(heh) after the fact.

This is basically to me another ruby ridge.... I'd understand if they went to server warrants and a cop got shot... hell - they should shoot the whole place up and burn it to the GROUND if a cop got shot for doing his/her duty.

but that ain't how it rolled....

From that list... i can only surmise that when it comes down to it - a whole lot of evidence that never should have been able to be collected will/was being used against someone who never would have used force.

its all subjective... since we don't know what would have happened if they didn't approach the place like someone from inside was gonna murder em... intead they approached it like someone WAS gonna murder em and then - murdered them.

go figure.

i bet amoung us we have people who have illegally modified *A* weapon to fire auto..... that never will use it publicly, that will never use it in a crime... thay are still "criminals" .... but not in the way that makes sense.

btw... the left... loves the BD's... a bunch of americans that believed in what they believed in that included firearms... that were NOT doing anything illegal w/ them(when i say this - i mean robbing a store/killing someone/etc - not "didn't pay the tax/do the paperwork for a fully auto weapon")... and the warrant that was issued had nothing to do w/ firearms... and yet... it became a firearm issue... go figure....

have i ever mentioned i hate people.... people suck... rofl

heheh

J/Tharg!

edit - many mis-spellings - sorry - late night - can't even be bothered to go fix em.... mouse stopped working too... so re-boot necessary - and when i do that i got to bed. Night all =) rofl.

[HEiST]

If I could give up a single piece of my skin- no, even just a little cell of it for Koresh Krazies and Ko to never have been overrun.. I wouldn't.

If I could give a large chunk of my flesh for the demon posessed pedophile to live out his final days in a worse manner and die in a method more tortuous than burning alive- I would.

End of story. Karma is a biiiiiii.. big ugly thing.

[Tharg]

holy rusted rocks batman...

man - i can say i never really LOOKED into this one.

Took the media for what it was worth - and hell - usually they are GREAT for the children!!!!

heh

if even ... 10% of what is printed above is correct.... they should have burned long before anything else happened. (they being the perpetrators of the rape/usage/slavery of the young girls involved)

however comma

i'll ad that its too easy to "label" and run w/ something than it is to actually foller the law.....

if they had a warrant... then they should have at least TRIED to serve it in a nomral way... this is a RIGHT for EVERYONE... not just the BD's.. i don't think they should IGNORE child abuse.. i'm saying that you can't ad it as a point after the fact....(on why the wanted to go in - in the first place)(IE - say someone told someone else you were HEAVILY armed... all thos big black evil rifles... and the ATF busted in your door instead of serving a warrant to a citizen as would normally been done)

if there were two warrants as stated by you... then they should have tried to fulfil those warrants.... everything i have seen said they did try to fill those warrants... by a military style take down... instead of knockin on the door. (to this day i don't recall anything that said they even TRIED to serve the warrant normally..... prove me wrong and i'll ... erm... hell - say yer right - and be educated in the process)

once again - child abuse... is SO sick to me(will never understand what an adult could posibly see in a child... hell - even a young woman... the maturity level just isn't there... )... i'd heard rumors... but nothing like the quotes in your email... if that was going on it should have stopped ... kids have it hard enough as it is these days... w/o some sick individuals ..... preying on them

the only point i'm really trying to make is ... i guess... law is law.. and the minute the law can step over itself... is when the rest of us get trampled.... this situation being what it is could VERY well lead SEVERAL people to believe the end justifies the means... and if that becomes common... then .... many of us will be the worse for it... the majority of us you ask me.

I wish i lived in a Black and White world... but i don't... and grey sucks as a color

J/Tharg!

[molonlabe]

For those of you who believe all the spin doctors I would advise that research the information available to you. Waco led to terrible divisions within our country and a general mistrust of LE. That in it self should deserve investigation. I have no love for Koresh or his cult but I remember watching this on TV and asking people at work "Does any of this bother you"? They replied. “Well he was abusing children” We have a concept of innocent until proven guilty in this country no matter what emotional response child abuse elicits in oneself. Make your own decision.

The information’s out there, some biased, some not biased, other so far out in left field you need a tin foil hat. Here’s a place to start. Happy reading.
http://www.rickross.com/groups/waco.html#Rick%20Ross%20and%20Waco

I think every American needs to read and understand what happened there.

[SIGarmed]

When was that report released? Last I heard BATFE was keeping all the Branch Davidian stuff in a sealed warehouse and would not let any outsider, even the Rangers, near it. The result was that there was no objective evidence that any illegal weapons were in the compound. I am not normally given to government conspiracy theories, but with the "Coverup Clinton" administration involved ("Would I lie to you?"), I wonder if this report can be trusted.

I do note the "piling on" by listing every tiny gun part and by listing guns and gun parts that were and are entirely legal to possess. It is just another version of the "tables full of guns" that Higgins wanted to show on TV to make Clinton happy and get more money and power for his bureau.

Jim

That depends on what the definition of "is" is.

[HankB]

BS, there were TWO warrants. . . . let's not pretend the ATF didn't have a reason to be there serving both those warrants. Let's also not pretend that the tragedy was not started by Vernon Wayne Howell and his followers, when they murdered 4 ATF Special Agents who were there serving two valid warrants.Initial reports - and even later reports - stated, repeatedly, that those on the raid had forgotten to bring along the actual warrants; the warrants had been accidentally left behind at the office.

You can't serve what you don't have.

If you have information that the BATmen actually had the warrants in their possession and tried to hand them to the Davidians before attempting to force entry, please share this information.

[buzz_knox]

Yeah, he was just a fine "fellow American" who didn't pay his transfer tax.

Koresh was a disgusting waste of air. No doubt. But child abuse was not the justification for the initial warrants, nor the perjured accusations of drug manufacturing that got the National Guard involved, nor the excuse for the final raid (the FBI stated that they had no new reports of child abuse wehn they decided to launch the final assault, notwithstanding Reno's statement at a press conference a couple hours earlier. Guess they forgot to get the cover story straight.) The official story for the final assault was that the siege was wearing down HRT and the other agencies, and it needed to end. At least, that's the first story they reported. Child abuse also doesn't justify tossing in flammable canisters of tear gas in an enclosed environment with children present, which FBI policy prohibited, and then lying about (they only came clean when the Texas Rangers made the discovery of these cannisters public knowledge.)

Once again, Koresh was an evil disgusting thing. But to use his sins to justify the gross incompetence, criminal negligence, or malfeasance of the federal agencies involved is completely unwarranted.

[twency]

Once again, Koresh was an evil disgusting thing. But to use his sins to justify the gross incompetence, criminal negligence, or malfeasance of the federal agencies involved is completely unwarranted.

Exactly.

For those of you who suggest there was no reason to bother the nice people in the kompound, be realistic. If you'd heard credible reports of what was allegedly occurring (child abuse, etc.), wouldn't you feel compelled to investigate?

For those of you who say that you have little or no problem with how the whole thing went down, because these were "bad people," how do you justify the doctoring of facts and evidence that it seems pretty clear happened after the fact? If everything was done above-board, and as it should have been, why was there such a coverup?

Ultimately, there's doesn't seem to be any argument that Koresh was scum. And he absolutely is complicit in the deaths of those in the compound, as he brought the wrath of the government down upon them. But that doesn't mean that the government handled the situation as it should have.

This doesn't seem much different, except in scale, from the bombing of MOVE in Philadelphia.

-twency
_______________
And that is all I have to say about that.

[UnknownSailor]

I don't think any of us here have any doubts about the need for an investigation into goings on at the compound, or even the legalities of the warrents. What I imagine many here have a problem with is the manner in which the BATF decided to conduct the raid, and the manner that they and the FBI conducted themselves during the seige and afterwards.

Lying about and tampering with evidence, locking it away so nobody can verify anything, stonewalling any attempts at investiating what happened, all give the impression that there is a cover-up underway. This is not conducive to generating trust in Federal Law Enforcement agents among the population at large.

That nobody was fired over the WACO incident only adds salt to the wound.

[JamisJockey]

If you'd heard credible reports of what was allegedly occurring (child abuse, etc.), wouldn't you feel compelled to investigate?

Yea, that was the duty of local officials. I could understand if they called the BATFE or FBI in to assist them, but instead when they headed there to serve the child abuse warrant (Sherrif Dept, IIRC), the BATFE was already there, and assumed jurisdiction, which they did not have.

[standingbear]

I agree 100% with buzz knoxs' observations and opinion.

I didnt believe what what "placed" on the news then and I'm just not buying into it now either.childrens lives were at risk..they went ahead anyways and the place burnt to the ground.sorry,I dont find it excusable even if a cobra gunship were found smoldering in the rubble.

what difference does it make now anyways?

[seeker_two]

That "list" is about as credible as the Clinton Library's account of Billy's impeachment... :barf:

I don't know what's worse: the fact that Clinton, Reno, and FBI/ATF got away with the coverup... :fire:

...or that Bush refuses to reopen the investigation into it. He's even thinking of naming John "if-the-gov't-said-they-didn't-do-anything-wrong-then-they're-innocent-as-lambs" Danforth for one of the vacant Cabinet positions... :banghead:

And the beat goes on... :(

[Atticus]

"childrens lives were at risk"

UH...Yeah...they were from the day their parents met Koresh. They filled the house with cans of gasoline, and such, so they (and their kids) could go up in flames...and they did.
How many weeks or months does a person need to realize that a ranch involved in a shootout with the government isn't a healthy environment for growing youngters.

[DMF]

. . . they headed there to serve the child abuse warrant . . . No they were not! Why does this BS keep getting repeated? The ATF was there to serve an arrest warrant for Howell for federal firearms violations, and a search warrant for the illegal weapons and explosives. If people are going to debate this subject they should do a little research on the facts. :banghead:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/topten.html#bureau
Why did the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms raid the Branch Davidian compound on February 28, 1993?

The ATF raided the Branch Davidian compound to serve arrest and search warrants as part of an investigation into illegal posession of firearms and explosives there.

Would you like to read the text of the affidavit for the search warrant?

http://www.rickross.com/reference/waco/waco_affidavit.html

[DMF]

Funny - how does the ATF get involved in a Child Abuse situation....

some would say fire-arms violations.... but how would they KNOW there were violations till(heh) after the fact. You have it backwards. The investigation started based on information about federal firearms and explosives crimes, and while doing that investigation the ATF learned there were also allegations of abuse of the children. I'd understand if they went to server warrants and a cop got shot That's EXACTLY how it happened. The cops showed up to serve two warrants and they got shot. In fact four cops died and 16 others were wounded. if they had a warrant... then they should have at least TRIED to serve it in a nomral way... Yeah, because Howell and his followers were just going to calmly let six agents in suits in ties, walk in and slap the cuffs on Howell and seize the evidence. :rolleyes:

They brought 70+ agents in the hope that speed, and the presence of overwhelming force would allow the warrants to be served with no violence. The fact that ATF lost the element of surprise, and that they underestimated the apocalyptic fantasies of the people of "Ranch Apocalypse," made the plan a failure. However, once again I say, the tatical errors of the ATF did not give Howell et al, the right to attack the agents that were there to serve those warrants.

[JoeWang]

Sure. Murder 200 people and burn them alive, release "evidence" years later. Did you get the names and numbers?

They were all real people at one time. Alive and breathing citizens of the Great State of TX and the U.S. of A.

What a shame. Shame on us.

[Intune]

Just give us the metal front door to examine. Yeah, right. Weasels

[dog3]

I was going to stay out of this one. But I still have questions about this, and
I don't for one minute belive this "finding" at all.

Let's see the WHOLE bit, the chain-of-custody on those weapons
and the statements from those who recovered them.

Rather than go on with a rant, I'll just reiterate one from yet still another WACO thread.

What is;

---

-well said about the doors.
-"which leads me to believe that the ATF people shot and killed were hit in the intial
engagement."
- -or went down from friendly fire. Again, where are the ballistic reports? where are
the forensic reports?
---

While I certainly enjoyed a lot of the CSPAN coverage, I kept wondering when
the big questions were going to be asked. Things like chain of custody documents
on material evidence, things like who shot who, ballistic matching tests between rounds
recovered from the ATF kias and the ATFs weapons, that sort of thing.

AFAIAC, the flir tape was the most incredibly damning evidence ever produced.
The tHouse Government Reform Committee turned the tape over to the brits (who,
btw are the worlds best at killing civilians and covering it up) towed the party
line to a T. Reflections, please. Reflections that happen to match the cyclic
rates of inventory weapons in use at the time, and shaped like muzzle flash.
Shaped like muzzle flashes of weapons aimed into areas where bodies were found.

BTW, for those of you who don't know,

Edward Allard, who appeared in the tape, was a co-inventor of
the technology, and the top boy when it came to analysis. He invented
flir analysis. He had a stroke, and has not recovered and could not
give testamony.

Fred Zegel; the pentagon flir topdog expert, was said to have
rebutted Allards analysis. However, what isn't broadly reported, was
that when Zegel actually got to examine the first gen tape in
detail, he changed his appraisal and backed Allards findings.
--side note,<tinhats on!> after doing this, he collapsed in public from
"blood poisoning" and hasn't ever talked about the waco tape
since </tinhats>

Carlos Ghigliotti; probably had the best analysis background. He
was an expert, he was picked by the House Government Reform Committee
to review all the flir research. He finished his report, wherein he
claimed that there were muzzle flashes as Allard had said
originally. However, before he could present his report and
be questioned, his decomposing body was found in his
Laurel Md lab back in May 2000. Local medical examiner
said "heart attack". Case closed. No testamony, no report. Period.

Handed off to the brits.

Good thing too, nearly everyone who saw muzzle flashes
either died or d*mned near did.

My blood pressures starting to climb now, time to quit.

---

There are a LOT of unaddressed issues. Calling the creep Howell a monster and shrugging it
off just don't stand.

Keep in mind, the scene was bulldozed. that's pretty telling.

[molonlabe]

Good research. Any research into this issue will lead to to plenty of questions. It's easy to refer to someone by a hot button word like child abuser or white supremacist which if you researched it Randy Weaver was not. This justifies all kind of outrageous behavior by most normal folk. This is basic Psy-ops and we are exposed to it every day in the media, by Madison Avenue to governments influencing the masses and yes even the Brady group.

http://www1.minn.net/~graczar/psycholo.htm
http://www.tsubragg.com/psyop/index.htm
http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/awc-info.htm
http://www.iwar.org.uk/psyops/

[standingbear]

the list is a moot point as far as justification of the tactics used that tradgic day,koresh was a psychotic basketcase into the doomsday yadda yadaa yadda.. and sending in the whole bag played into his sick fantasy.the whole thing was a flop.It would be my opinion that maybe we can learn from it.


..one could look at it from another angle too,more on those evil assault guns,yet those modified guns were illegal to begin with..illegally modified.the other stuff in the list is just parts..parts that one can get but it ALREADY is and has been illegal to modify scary look-alikes into these without the hoops and registration..yadda yadda.

I can see the sheeple now wondering how many more "koresh" wannabes are out there.good way to get some more restrictions on a roll.. doncha think?

[goalie]

DMF, I have a few questions for you:

1. Is or is it not true that David Koresh went jogging quite frequently? If so, why not arrest him then? Wouldn't serving the warrant be safer without the group's leader there?

2. Is it or is it not true that law enforcement officers had previously been to the compound and talked to Koresh without any violence?

[DMF]

goalie,

I'm sorry but Q1 is irrelevant. They needed to serve both warrants, the ARREST and SEARCH. It is pure speculation to say that if Howell had been arrested somewhere else that the others wouldn't have resisted. Based on the information from the undercover agent that was spending time at Ranch Apocalypse it was known that Howell was teaching the others to prepare for a final apocalyptic fight. There is no way to know if having a seperate operation would have worked.

However, the plan was to use surprise to serve the warrants at a time most of the adults would be working in areas away from where ATF believed the majority of the weapons were. I don't think anyone would argue that once the element of surprise was lost the odds of serving the warrants peacefully went down dramatically. However, hindsight is 20/20.

Also, reread what I quoted from Higgins earlier. Even if, for the sake of argument, we assume that there was a tactical error, that doesn't justify the attack by Howell and his followers.

Q2, ATF had developed information through state and local LE, and their undercover agent. They knew that Howell had NO interest in allowing anyone from ATF come out and peacefully search the property. In addition ATF was not just going to search, they were going to arrest Howell. That changes the whole situation.

It was hoped by using the large raid that violence would be prevented. Again, the decision to continue after the people at Ranch Apocalypse can be debated endlessly, but it doesn't change the fact that Howell and his followers chose the path of violence, and attacked law enforcement officers serving valid warrants.

[DMF]

It's easy to refer to someone by a hot button word like child abuser or white supremacist which if you researched it Randy Weaver was not. White supremacist or separatist, either way Weaver was a racist. However, what he believed is irrelevant, the illegal actions he took were quite relevant. For a synopsis of what happened with Weaver, take a look at the facts: http://thehighroad.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=1366453 It spares no criticism of the government, but also shows that Weaver wasn't just a guy that was persecuted by the government.

As for Howell, he was abusing children, and he was stockpiling ILLEGAL weapons and explosives. It is not psy-ops to tell the truth about those things, they are relevant to the case.

[goalie]

There is no way to know if having a seperate operation would have worked.

Well, it sure couldn't have worked out any worse. Also, just saying something is irrelevant does not make it so. It usually just means that someone doesn't want to address the issue at hand.

The bottom line is that you think it was a good idea to storm in and do a no-knock raid on a group of people who believed (and it was public knowledge) that they were going to end up at war with the government. I would argue that it would have been much more reasonable to take a little, or even a lot more time and figure out a way to deal with the situation in a way that didn't involve swat team tactics. It is my opinion that the problem wasn't the tactics used, it was that the people in charge were thinking tactically at all instead of thinking strategically.

[DMF]

Regarding the IR evidence, the BS about the FBI targetting the occupants on the final day is pure fantasy.

Go here to read a portion of the report on the IR evidence (excerpt originally published in the Dallas Morning News in May 2000):
http://www.rickross.com/reference/waco/waco157.html

On all of this, get the facts, and not just one side of the facts. I strongly suspect that most here have never really spent time on looking at any information other than the anti-ATF/FBI stuff. Take some time to look at the other side.

Feel free to read Danforth's entire report, published in July 2000, here: http://www.cesnur.org/testi/DanforthRpt.pdf

[goalie]

DMF, what are your thoughts on the weapons, the chain of evidence, and the availability of them to the defense attorneys of the charged Davidians who survived?

[DMF]

. . . just means that someone doesn't want to address the issue at hand. Actually I did address the issue at hand. I stated it was irrelevant, and stated why I thought it was irrelevant.

With regard to tactics, and taking time to plan, ATF had been working on the operation for months. The concerns were safety, and evidence. In HINDSIGHT it's easy to say they were foolish, but at the time the agents had been doing their best to plan the service of the warrants in a way that would be safe, and allow the evidence to be collected. Obviously it didn't work out that way, but again the tactical errors by ATF did not somehow give Howell and the others justification for attacking the agents.

[DMF]

goalie, read Danforth's report. It's all explained in great detail there.

[molonlabe]

White supremacist or separatist, either way Weaver was a racist. However, what he believed is irrelevant, the illegal actions he took were quite relevant.

You mean the part where the ATF paid him to cut a shotgun down?

Or not showing up for his hearing part?

[goalie]

In regards to Weaver, well, I guess those shoot-to-kill on sight orders don't bother DMF either. They should give those orders any time someone cuts a shotgun down to 17.5 inches instead of the required 18 inches. :rolleyes:

[Intune]

DMF, do you recall the reason given for the assault against the compound on day 51?

[DMF]

DMF, do you recall the reason given for the assault against the compound on day 51? http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/topten.html#attorney

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/renoopeningst.html

We will never know whether there was a better solution. Had we not acted when we did, Koresh had brought things to a sudden and violent finish as he had rehearsed, we would probably be here today anyhow. And you would be asking me why I hadn't taken action earlier; why we had not tried to use tear gas to resolve the situation. Everyone involved in the events of April the 19th made their best judgments based on all the information we had. We have tried as hard as we can to study what happened at Waco, to learn from our experience and to make changes so that as we go forward, we can be as prepared as possible to deal with such future situations.

Attorney General Janet Reno, 1 Aug 95

[M1911Owner]

Wow!! They owed thousands of dollars in unpaid transfer taxes!!! :what: Sounds like a good enough reason to me to lay siege to a church, seal in the congregation, complete with women and children, and burn the place to the ground with them inside.

:barf: :barf: :banghead:

[Intune]

Nope, ain't gonna fly DMF. Do you not recall, "they're hurting the children so we have to go in" bs? I don't care about the various warrants and how properly/improperly they were served. The fact that the gov would't let it go to day 52 is what rankles me.

[DMF]

Well Intune, wait to day 7, wait for him to finish his writings, wait to day 52, wait day 53, wait to day 152, when does it stop? Do you not remember that there many people asking why the government was not doing something to get those children out? I remember it clearly. Hell, within hours of the initial shootout, there were pundits whining that the government should launch another assault on the compound.

It was a Catch-22. Do nothing, and people like you would be whining that they left those children there to suffer. Do nothing, and if Howell and the other adults started executing children, then people like you would be crying, "if only they had gone in stop him this wouldn't have happened." Do something and it goes wrong and people like you whine that they didn't wait another day.

It's easy to sit back now and say it was a bad choice. However, during that 51 days the people in the DOJ were struggling with how to resolve the standoff. Whether it happened on day 51, day 52, or a year later, eventually something had to be done.

To say you don't care about the validity of warrants is ludicrous. It is central to the whole tragedy, as the first link in the chain of the events leading to that fire. Had Howell and the others allowed those warrants to be served no one would have been killed. The murders of Conway LeBleu, Todd McKeehan, Rob Williams, and Steve Willis, set in motion one the worst tragedies in our nation. However, it was started by Howell and the other Branch Davidians. To ignore that is to ignore the truth about what went on at Ranch Apocalypse.

Again I quote Director Higgins: "By what perverted sense of logic or legality does it somehow follow, as some have argued, that because the ATF made a mistake in not aborting the raid, the Davidians were therefore entitled to offer armed resistance and kill the agents as they arrived to serve legal, court-ordered warrants?"

[Intune]

DMF, I'm gonna let you slide on the multiple "people like you" references.

Where did I refer to the validity or lack thereof in reference to the warrants? I merely granted their manner of service as a given. You also sidestepped the govs stated pressing reason for going in on day 51.

Please don't construe my discussion of this as support for the BD's. Federal, state or local LE's come to my door with a warrant (they did have the warrants with them, right?) come on in gents. Want some coffee?

There wasn't a chain of events that led to that fire. There was day 51.

[DMF]

You said that you, "don't care about the various warrants and how properly/improperly they were served." I pointed out that is the key to whole tragedy.

As for the "people like you" comments. I stand by them. You and others that wanted another day, ignore the fact that people were clamoring for the government to "do something for those children trapped in the compound."

To say there was no chain of events is also ludicrous. There can be no "day 51," without the events of the preceeding 50 days leading up that day. To ignore the preceeding 50 days, makes it appear that the government made no effort to negotiate a surrender, and ignores the fact they were trying to come up with other solutions to the problem. However, all the choices, including waiting longer carried risks to the occupants of the compound.

So tell me how long should the government have left those kids there, before taking action? What would you, and the rest of the public, say if the FBI had waited longer, but Howell and the others had harmed those children while the government stood by and did nothing? What is your grand solution to getting those children out? You have the advantage of more than a decade of hindsight. So you tell me what the DOJ should have to done to resolve that situation in a manner that would have had ZERO RISK to the occupants of the compound. Because that is what the MMQB'ing of this subject is really all about, saying that there needed to be a ZERO RISK solution. It is an impossible standard to hold anyone to.

There was no zero risk option, as I pointed out in my previous post. Do nothing and the kids suffer, and may have been hurt or killed by Howell and the others. Do something, and there may be a chance of getting the kids out, but there is a risk that things will go bad. All options including waiting for your "day 52" had serious risks.

Would you prefer that DOJ had brought in BOP to erect a fence around Ranch Apocalypse, and call it the Mt. Carmel Penitentiary? :rolleyes: What to do about the kids inside though?

[M1911Owner]

Ya, DMF, it wouldn't have made any sense to just back down about this few thousand dollars of taxes, and deal with it another day, would it? No, Ms. Reno had to prove that she had the biggest c*ck in Washington DC. (I apologize for the language, but it seems and appropriate and necessary for the point.) Instead she had to burn the place down and kill most of them.

[Intune]

You said that you, "don't care about the various warrants and how properly/improperly they were served." I pointed out that is the key to whole tragedy.Really? Serving those warrants killed 80+ people? Hmmm. You sure it wasn’t when the BD’s bought their first AR15? Or the Nat Guards AFV? Maybe it was right when they bought that Coleman lantern fuel. The FBI breaching those walls on day 51 is what caused those people to die on that day. Not the day before, not the day after and not when those warrants were served.

As for the "people like you" comments. I stand by them. You and others that wanted another day, ignore the fact that people were clamoring for the government to "do something for those children trapped in the compound." What “people” were “clamoring?” Was it the same “people” who “clamor” for lower taxes? Immigration laws? The war in Iraq? The environment? Gas prices? SUV’s? The economy? The gov sure has hopped on those issues. “We have 51 days to pacify Iraq and then we’re outta here.” Yeah, ok.

There can be no "day 51," without the events of the preceeding 50 days leading up that day. How many lives were lost following the initial confrontation? Still love to see that front door btw. The ATF/FBI was losing face (in their minds) with each and every passing day. I don’t care how much face our gov loses, they better damn well do nothing if their actions could result in the death of one, much less 80, citizens.

There was no zero risk option, as I pointed out in my previous post. Do nothing and the kids suffer, and may have been hurt or killed by Howell and the others. Do something, and there may be a chance of getting the kids out, but there is a risk that things will go bad. All options including waiting for your "day 52" had serious risks. Oh, the kids were suffering alright and it came as a direct result of the psych-ops that the FBI was conducting. The clandestine microphones that the feebs had planted would have indicated that mass murder was taking place. No such indication was given. In fact, conversations were intercepted that would indicate further assault upon the compound would bring dire consequences to the inhabitants. All options had serious risks but assaulting the buildings posed the most grave one for the inhabitants. Guess which option they chose?

Would you prefer that DOJ had brought in BOP to erect a fence around Ranch Apocalypse, and call it the Mt. Carmel Penitentiary? What to do about the kids inside though? What I would have preferred is for the FBI (our public servants) to continue negotiations no matter how long it took to see the situation resolved peacefully. 52 days or 300. Oh, they did something about the kids inside (who thought they were safe with their parents) alright. And at the same time served notice to the public that our government has a finite amount of patience when it comes to alleged lawbreakers.

You people think that the government can do no wrong. You people believe that when a citizen is accused of a crime it is well within the bounds of governmental policy to precipitate actions that will probably result in the immolation of his/her family and friends. You people think that the government should wait a proscribed amount of time (or until it feels embarrassment) and then just do what it came to do no matter the outcome. You people feel that the government is always right and that citizens should acquiesce to its demands at all times. You people paint with a broad brush because it blends the individual into the unwashed masses of the citizenry thereby enabling sanctions of God given rights. You people.

Pretty close to how you feel DMF? Yeah, you had me nailed too. :uhoh:

[GUNSMOKE45441]

I talked to one of the agents involved, I asked if it were true foriegn troops were involved, his reply"so what if there were" nuff said!!! :cuss:

[Dog]

I don't agree with the way any of it was handled. The BATF was wrong for staging such a raid in the first place over a tax law. Then the BATF screws it up and turn it over to the FBI, who doesn't do any better. There was a zero risk option. Leave and come back another day. These people were inocent untill proven quilty. They had no proof of child abuse, automatic weapons, or drug manufacturing (the reason they used to get the military invovled).

Unfortunately, we will never know the truth. The people who know the truth are either dead or think they have to much to loose to tell the truth. My feelings are what we are aloud to know is somewhere in the middle of the truth.

[goalie]

Well, one thing I do know is that, like the Randy Weaver incident, the level of force used was vastly disproportional to the offense in question. If anything, it should be more difficult for the federal government to justify using deadly force than it is for a civilian on the street.

[biere]

On July 30, 1992, gun dealer Henry McMahon called
Koresh, saying ATF agents were at his home asking questions
about him. "Tell them to come out here," replied Koresh. apfn.org/apfn/appointment.asp

Cameraman Jim Peeler of Waco's KWTX-TV had run into David Jones, a Davidian and U.S. Mail carrier, on a rural road near Mount Carmel shortly before the raid. When Jones learned the cameraman was looking for the Davidian residence, Jones raced back to alert Koresh. The bloody clash ensued.
http://dir.salon.com/news/feature/2000/04/19/waco/index.html

Prior to being occupied by Koresh's group, that compound had been rented out. I don't remember to whom. When they took over the building, they found a lot of chemicals and chemical equipment left by the prior occupants. The Davidians called in the local sherrif, and the local sherrif hauled the stuff away. End of story.

http://www.free-market.info/main9904b/messages/746542829.html

The atf had an insider and for a while they rented a house across from the Koresh HOUSE. I don't call a wood building a compound. The atf should call it tinder.

The local police had investigated allegations of child abuse in the past, they found nothing.

The government had the remains of the building bulldozed too quickly for proper study, this from the texas rangers as I recall.

I have done my research about waco. No matter how bad Koresh was as a man, the government lied about meth to gain use of military helicopters and pilots for those helicopters.

The government hearings and other stuff make me sick to my stomach when I see how the survivors were treated.

I will proudly sit in the tin foil hat section because there is no way this was an acceptable way to serve a warrant filled with false info. That House the koresh folks lived in was roughly 2/3 rds filled with women and children.

[PaleRyder]

I read a Federal judge ruled private citizens can ideed make their own fully automatic machine gun. It's only illegal to transfer that gun to someone else. The ruling may have been after Waco, however.

[Mannlicher]

I always doubt the authenticity of stuff like this

[WilderBill]

So, DMF, you think there were people clamering to get the children out?
As it happens you are right on that one.
By about day 45, there were dozens of people in the DFW area who were becoming aware of each other and the need to stop that madness.
No doubt, there were lots more that would have soon found each other by word of mouth.
I think that in another week or so, the .gov perimeter would have been inside of a larger perimeter of armed, pissed off Texans.
I do recall, fairly early in the seige, a disscussion about airdropping food and ammo to them. It was determined that the Davidians would mistake it for a government straffing run and probably shoot down their help, so it never happened.

One thing the whole thing did do, it proved that to have an effective home defense arsonal, you need to be able to stop tanks and helicopters as well as the average home invader. :barf:

I do hope the .gov has got that kind of crap out of it's system.
I'm pretty sure that a lot of us here no longer have any tolerence for that type of taxpayer funded insanity.

[Mark in California]

I think you are all missing the point. When it was decided to continue the raid even after the element of surprise was lost, a far-reaching decision was made. It was to be an armed assault. Prime time and TV ready. America’s ”best”, protecting Truth, Justice and the American Way of Life.

Having made that decision, then they should not have turned back. I think it was the wrong decision, and that they should have pulled back and reconsider options, but that would mean telling the tag-along media that they had lost control of the operation.

However, when it had been decided to take the objective, and BATF should have gone in without hesitation. Like Normandy the assault team should have been totally dedicated to its objective. Anything less was a failure. To go into a blown operation, and then not follow it thru to its conclusion was both a command and an operational failure. These people should never again be trusted with weapons, positions of trust, or any sort of responsibility over others because of their inability to plan and carry out a life or death operation, which they caused.

Not having enough troops for an enemy laying in wait was a failure of command.

Not having proper or enough weapons take on an enemy laying in wait was a failure of command.

Not having the proper mind-set to take on an enemy laying in wait was a failure of command, planning, training and personel.

Deserting your assignment in the face of the enemy was cowardice.

This was a total failure of command. BATF started a fight they were not prepared for, and then allowed it to become an insurrection. Finally the FBI allowed it to continue until they watched almost everyone (men, women and children) burn to death while still aiming weapons at them so they could not escape.

[WilderBill]

There is a comon term for that type of management style.
It involves the word cluster, if you get my meaning.
Not only were everyone from the President on down in that chain of command in the cluster, but the Davidians, who were on the bottom on the pile had the least chance of cralin gout of it.

I'm not saying that Koresh was a saint or anything.
He probably needed to be arrested along with some of his followers.
The point here is that you don't 'save the children' by shooting into their home and later burning it to the grond with them inside.

No matter what the intent was, the outcome was government sanctioned murder and a huge cover up that continues to this day.
If that had been done by a foreign government, say Mexico, trying to save Mexican nationals held in the compound, then I beleive Mexico would be our 51st State by now. :scrutiny:

[cordex]

With regard to tactics, and taking time to plan, ATF had been working on the operation for months. The concerns were safety, and evidence. In HINDSIGHT it's easy to say they were foolish, but at the time the agents had been doing their best to plan the service of the warrants in a way that would be safe, and allow the evidence to be collected. Obviously it didn't work out that way, but again the tactical errors by ATF did not somehow give Howell and the others justification for attacking the agents.
DMF, you're a cop, right? Lets say you were responding to a report of a man with a gun. You knew this guy, and knew that he was crazy. Moreover, you knew that his particular insanity revolved around the belief that evil, people-eating apes were going to come feast on his brains. If you didn't want a fight, would you dress up in a King Kong suit and run at him screaming "Oooga boooga give me BRAINS!"?

Let's take the lesson we just learned from that example.

If you know:
1. that you're going after well-armed loonies with a persecution complex who
2. believe that the government is going to come kill them and
3. plan on staging a last stand at Ranch Apocalypse when the government death squads come.

How do you handle the situation? Do you:
a) Send a couple of nonthreatening agents to the door with a search warrant to ask to be let in. This way, if things go south it'll likely end up with the door closed in the agents' face.
b) Accept Vern's invitation to come into the compound after you talk to his buddy the gun dealer.
c) Dress up a team of agents to look like the most intimidating, angry, blood-seeking, government death-squad that the Davidians could have ever dreamed up. Have them charge the compound and then act shocked when the Davidians start shooting at what they see as government goons whose sole purpose is to come kill them.
d) Search for some other solution that does not involve giving credibility to the deepest fears of the loonies you're going after.

If I spent a good chunk of my life believing that the government was going to come kill me, and suddenly I see cattle-cars full of agents clad in ninja suits carrying (and maybe firing) automatic weapons, charging at my house, I might be a little trigger-happy to. Hell, even if I didn't spend my life believing that, I still might be inclined to defend myself. The manner in which the ATF executed their warrant (ignoring for the moment the content and validity of the warrant) could not have been more perfectly suited to picking a fight with the Davidians. You say this is obvious in hindsight. I say it HAD to have been obvious in the planning stages. They had an agent who spent a lot of time with the Davidians. They knew the mentality. They had to know what would happen when they charged in doing their level best to look like the manifestation of David Koresh's predictions. I just can't believe an agency could be that utterly and criminally incompetant.

Does that excuse the Davidians? Not at all! It was - as I said - what happens when one group of heavily armed crazies confronts another group of heavily armed crazies. Both sides were looking for a fight. Both sides found one. I tend to make it a point to avoid getting caught in the middle of mutual combat when possible.