Mugging at my school, would lethal force be justified?


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cfabe
November 18, 2004, 12:00 AM
There was a mugging at my school this evening. I was not a witness but my brother was. 3 or 4 men ages approx 15-25 ran up to a student as he was crossing the street, tackled him hard and held him to the ground while one went through his pockets. They did not say anything directly threatening or display any weapon. From the account I heard I don't think he even noticed them until they were on him.

Of course carry on campus is agianst school rules, and carry in the clasroom he was headed to is illegal under state law, but in this instance, do you feel letal force would have been justified by the victim? By a bystander? Assuming you were situationally aware unlike the victim and saw them coming, at what point would you draw?

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jefnvk
November 18, 2004, 12:03 AM
To me, being pinned down on a ROAD is definitely endangerment.

Whether or not the courts see it that way, is another story. Its all gonna depend on the 12 that are selected.

Standing Wolf
November 18, 2004, 12:19 AM
Three or four against one?

I'd shoot the first and trust the rest would run away.

boofus
November 18, 2004, 12:27 AM
Disparity of force (4-1 odds) will make use of lethal force justified in most states.

Daniel L
November 18, 2004, 01:51 AM
That would be a tough case because there was nothing life threatening involved. They never said any threats and they didn't beat him. In that case, you're going to lose a lot more in court than you are to lose from your wallet.

deej
November 18, 2004, 01:56 AM
That would be a tough case because there was nothing life threatening involved. They never said any threats and they didn't beat him. In that case, you're going to lose a lot more in court than you are to lose from your wallet.

You get held down by 3 or 4 guys, and tell me that you don't feel your life is threatened.

SB88LX
November 18, 2004, 01:58 AM
Just say he was whispering in your ear and waste them, but by that time being held down on the ground and not noticing them beforehand, the gun wouldn't do much good. Improve situational awareness level, present gun when you see a posse of punks rushing towards you, they scatter, problem solved.

Daniel L
November 18, 2004, 02:12 AM
Just say he was whispering in your ear and waste them, but by that time being held down on the ground and not noticing them beforehand, the gun wouldn't do much good. Improve situational awareness level, present gun when you see a posse of punks rushing towards you, they scatter, problem solved.

Verbal threats don't hold up in court. You're right about it being too late to draw.

I keep thinking of a situation where a haggard looking man comes up to ask for money but he can also be a possible threat. What is there to do in that situation? Draw and potentially threaten a harmless person? Run and look funny in public? It's not possible to let the person approach because if they're a threat then they're too close.

artherd
November 18, 2004, 03:09 AM
Disparity of force (4-1 odds) will make use of lethal force justified in most states.

Felony Aggravated Assault, by a gang of 4+ persons, would in my opinion be grounds for a reasonable person to conclude that their life was in danger, or that they were about to endure greay and egregious physical harm.

Even California law in principle would rule this a good shoot.

"just roughing someone up" is NOT A SOCIALLY ACCEPTIBLE PRACTICE! IT CAN GET YOU KILLED!

Zach S
November 18, 2004, 10:39 AM
IMO, yes.

Hawkmoon
November 18, 2004, 11:03 AM
Verbal threats don't hold up in court.
Not true. A pattern of verbal threats delivered in such a way as to make the victim believe that the threats are credible could hold up in court. The problem is convincing the jury that you (as the victim) believed the threats to be credible enough that you feared for your life.

In the example cited here, a verbal threat in the context of being tackled and pinned to the ground by FOUR attackers would certainly add credance to a defense that the victim feared for his/her life.

SLCDave
November 18, 2004, 11:21 AM
Disparity of force. 4 guys could beat you to death without a weapon. 4 guys commiting an aggrivated felony assault against you. Of course, if you get pinned to the ground, it makes it kind of hard to draw.

Gunsnrovers
November 18, 2004, 11:32 AM
As the individual being attacked, I think you would be OK in terms of the perception that your life was being threatened.

The original question also asked about bystanders being able to draw and fire. That's a different issue. Lots of questions in my mind about that legality. Lots of ways for that to go wrong.

GSB
November 18, 2004, 01:12 PM
School issue aside, in my state of residence, it is legal to use lethal force to prevent a forcible felony on a third party (rape, kidnapping, etc.). I'd have to look up the statute for the exact wording. But yeah, let me echo the above that there are lots of ways for that to go wrong once the whole thing hits criminal and civil courts.

Series 70
November 18, 2004, 03:30 PM
I keep thinking of a situation where a haggard looking man comes up to ask for money but he can also be a possible threat. What is there to do in that situation? Draw and potentially threaten a harmless person? Run and look funny in public? It's not possible to let the person approach because if they're a threat then they're too close.

This is where a pocket pistol really shines. You can casually put your hand in your pocket and be ready just in case. If your spidey sense is tingling to the point where you have a grip on your pistol, you should be moving away, too.

WT
November 18, 2004, 04:25 PM
Nope, not called for. Sounds like some kid lost his lunch money in a schoolyard. No stale cold pizza for him.

I see nothing that says he was at risk of serious bodily injury or death.

JGReed
November 18, 2004, 05:06 PM
Just say he was whispering in your ear and waste them

OK, except that's perjury and therefore both immoral and illegal. Besides, if he has to lie about it then apparently he wasn't really afraid for his life or the real story would be good enough.

If he had used lethal force in this instance he would certainly be indicted and most likely convicted. Would it be understandable to be afraid? Certainly, he got tackled and held down by four strangers. I'd be afraid too. But the question would be "What made you think they were going to kill you?" to which he would have no real response other than that he was being held down. No threats, he wasn't even punched. Fighting back physically would be considered reasonable, opening fire probably wouldn't.

SB88LX
November 18, 2004, 05:14 PM
Agreed I suppose, lying wouldn't be the answer. At what point do you accept that "ok, they can hold me down and rob me of my belongings"? Schoolyard scuffle? Well then no, no lethal force, get a couple of friends and exact revenge. College campus? That's a little more real life, threats or not, they are scum and lethal force isn't completely outside my reasoning. My 2 cents.



PS, hell charles bronson (in a movie) wasted a punk for stealing his camera off his shoulder :cool: (i dont consider this a reinforcement of my reasoning, just tossing it in)

Hawkmoon
November 18, 2004, 08:35 PM
Nope, not called for. Sounds like some kid lost his lunch money in a schoolyard. No stale cold pizza for him.

I see nothing that says he was at risk of serious bodily injury or death.
ABSOLUTELY correct! Just like we always tell the women about rape situations, just let the bad guys have what they want and they'll be nice and walk away like gentlemen when it's all over. Nope, no mugger EVER killed a victim after getting the watch and wallet. Nope. Impossible, can't happen, no reason to worry. Just lie back and enjoy having FOUR unknown assailants pin you to the ground and go through your pockets. They'll be done in just a second.

Sheesh!

mfree
November 18, 2004, 09:15 PM
here's the deal, armchair quarterbacks. Were there firearm play involved, you'd have to consider at the time of occurrence that noone had any idea how it was going to play out. You can't take into consideration the outcome because it's an unknown.

It was four men rushing one. That's all the victim would know.

Ukraine Train
November 19, 2004, 12:09 AM
I go to the same school. I can add a few comments. Across the street from where the mugging occurred is a convenient store aka the Stop-n-Rob, a man was killed there about six months ago, my friend was robbed in the parking lot. Students here have been held up at gunpoint before and student houses are routinely robbed because the perps know that there are several computers and other electronics in the houses. This is near downtown Flint, MI which has some of the worst crime in the country. The perps were almost certainly locals, not students.

That being said, I think if it were me and I was carrying I would have drawn and if they did not let up immediately upon seeing the gun or me yelling that I have one then I'd start shooting. Same goes if I was a bystander.

artherd
November 19, 2004, 04:04 PM
It was four men rushing one. That's all the victim would know.

And that alone would be enough for me to level a pistol at the head of the lead guy.

Bigjake
November 19, 2004, 05:57 PM
where in ohio was it, cfabe?

Ukraine Train
November 19, 2004, 08:12 PM
This is Flint, Michigan.

greg700
November 19, 2004, 09:23 PM
If I were unarmed I don't suppose I would have much choice.

But if I had my handgun on me, and I had access to it, I think I would have to use it.

Afterall, they are searching me for things to steal, what happens when they find and take control of my weapon...

dog3
November 19, 2004, 10:16 PM
"It was the minimum force necessary to stop the assault"


Don't waffle, don't get into an argument, don't let yourself be argued
with, Stand by it. You don't even want to explain it.

On the report

"The subjected stated only;
It was the minimum force necessary to stop the assault".

Pretty hard for the prosecutor to argue that one simple point.

Don't let them make it into something else.

One point, stick do it, and do not waiver.

You have to put yourself in chains in a situation like that, and there
are prosecutors who are really good at making that happen.

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