[Tecolote]

Not the infamous HUD agreement but products that SW dropped, could have easily marketed or marketed that would've kept up its market share.;)

I never liked the 5906 but the 5904 was both lighter and had a quality black finish. The 5904 had an ergonomic grip and was well balanced. So why did SW stop making them?

The Shorty Forty was made in limited numbers by the Performance Shop but how hard could it have been to make it a production item? A .40 in a 6906 package would've been popular.

The SIGMA. Who were the genuis ad guys that came with that one? Some people have reliable SIGMAs but most are POS. Why market such a POS?

[Handy]

Did they go out of business?

[Tecolote]

No, but they went from having the largest LE market share and having a large percentage of non-LE sales to being minor players in both areas.

[Spackler]

The 5903 was the alloy/stainless version of the all-steel 5906. They are again making the 5903.

The .40 version of the 6906 you speak of is called the 4013. They've been making it for years.

[Mylhouse]

I thought that S&W was anything but down and out.:confused:

[Blackhawk]

Did they go out of business?When they signed that Clinton agreement, they went out of MY business.

Unless and until they repudiate and bury that agreement, they'll stay out of it too.... :rolleyes:

[M1911]

No, but they went from having the largest LE market share and having a large percentage of non-LE sales to being minor players in both areas.I don't think they've had the largest LE market share since the revolver days. They never did have a good response to the Glock. Their attempt, the Sigma, was a disaster from the word go...

[Tecolote]

Spackler,

Thanks for the info on the 4013. But the 5903 isn't the same as the 5904. The 5904 was blackened steel/alloy while the 5903 is staninless steel/alloy. The 5904 was lighter than both the 5903 and 5906.

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/sw5906.jpg
SW 5904 Linked from Guns RU


I've been looking for a NIB 5904 for a long time. It's one of my favorite full size autos.

I stopped looking at SW autos when they went with the ugly plastic rails. I was told that the hammers, triggers and safeties on the new SW autos are made of plastic. Is this a rumor?

[Spackler]

I think the 5904 was essentially replaced by the "value line" version, the 915 (later the 910). Not nearly as well-finished at the 5904, but functional. I also liked the blued guns. I think they should make them available again, or make the stainless guns available with the black melonite finish, as they do with the 5906M (Modelo Militar, the military version they manufacture for export).

I'm not a fan of the goofy rail, either. I have a pre-rail 4013TSW that I like very much. I actually wanted to buy a 4013, the old single-stack version, but they had just transitioned to the TSW version when I bought mine so I ended up with that.

Hammers and triggers (and maybe the safeties) are not plastic, but MIM.

[ocabj]

I still want to get a S&W Airweight in .38spl. Those things are sweet.

[280PLUS]

in the light weight,,,model 332,,,model 332,,,you are getting verrry sleepy,,,model 332,,,model 332,,,

:evil:


http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=124393

from left to right the rounds are .32 acp / .32 h&r mag / 9mm luger

.38 spcl = ~ 200ft/lbs x five shots
.32 mag = ~190 ft/lbs @ 85 gr x 6 shots




All that aside, would someone clue in the clueless (ok, me) as to what agreement they s&w signed with clinton and why i should be not happy with them.

thanx

m

[Tecolote]

On the topic of revolvers, why did SW drop the 9mm snubbies? They're very sought after in my neck of the woods.

[Standing Wolf]

When they signed that Clinton agreement, they went out of MY business.

Mine, too—and I loathe, detest, and despise locks on firearms!

[Baba Louie]

280plus

you asked

http://www.nraila.org/FactSheets.asp?FormMode=Detail&ID=31&1=View

bout the Clinton agreement?

They still make good products (darn the built-in lock anyway)

Adios

[riverdog]

When they started putting a "6" in front of just about every revolver they make, they lost me. Some of us actually like carbon/blue steel. Sometimes I feel retro. Fortunately, there's lots of S&W revo's available on the used market, cheaper and better quality :)

[Kahrma]

S&W auto's are LARGE!

But large can be good with full house 10mm. :what:


http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid51/pc1c881f6608c33397620905a863ed16e/fca13197.jpg

[agtman]

I agree with Kaharma.

I've always like Smith's large-framed autoloaders in both the 10XX-series and the 45XX-series. I can't recall ever shooting a bad one. By the way, these are all pre-sellout agreement guns, so you can aquire one guilt-free.

While the 10mm Smith is what I prefer, I really liked the ergonomics of the 4506 (much improved over the 645), especially in the way it handled the recoil of the hotter +P 45 loads. Plus, Smith autoloaders have a unique look, certainly not like the ubiquitous 1911-clone everyone else seems to own or carry. I would probably enjoy the 4506's slightly more compact "Commander"-sized sibling, the 4566, at least as much as I enjoy my 1076. These were, and still are, highly underrated pistols for duty or civilian use.

My opinion, but the confluence of 2 factors cut into and ultimately reduced the market for these big stainless autoloaders: first was the impact on the handgun market in the late 80s and early 90s of Glock's light-weight polymer, hi-cap guns (e.g., the 15+1 10mm G-20 & the 13+1 45acp G-21); and, second, the wave of "Shall-Issue" CCW-reform laws then sweeping the states. Their passage instantly created a civilian market for more compact, light weight guns chambered in the larger calibers (i.e., 40S&W, 45acp, 10mm). Again, the (then) rising popularity of light-weight polymer guns continued as a factor even as smaller all-steel guns were being produced for the CCW market.

As well, the impact of the federal law limiting mag capacity to 10-rds for civilians was probably a factor in reducing demand for large guns. But it really only impacted those guns - large or small - employing double-stack mags exceeding 10-rds. The S&W 10XX-series and 45XX-series use single-stack mags (9+1 and 8+1 respectively).

:)

[bad_dad_brad]

Smith & Wesson is a totally different company today, then it was in the 90's. It all happened when Mitchell Saltz and others bought the company from the British firm that drove S&W into the ground. Note that the Boston and HUD agreements have been either nullified or neutured. Give em another chance. No nead to boycott anymore.

http://www.smithandwesson.com/headline.xml?producer=headline&ACTION=SHOW&headline=100017

Here is an excerpt from CEO Saltz's Stockholder meeting speech in from the link above:

09/23/2002
ANNUAL STOCKHOLDER MEETING SPEECH TRANSCRIPT

Good morning and thank you all for attending.

As most of you are aware, we purchased Smith & Wesson Corp. on May 11, 2001.
At the time of this purchase, Smith & Wesson faced some major political and financial challenges, which were inherited as part of the transaction. The company was in the midst of a consumer boycott and strained industry relations due to agreements signed with HUD and the city of Boston.

This boycott resulted in an approximate 37% decrease in sales for the year, which were the lowest at Smith & Wesson in more than a decade. Annual sales dropped from approximately $112 million to $71 million. The company also experienced its first annual loss in over a decade of approximately $14 million dollars.

In addition to battling a weak economy, our tasks for the first year under the Smith & Wesson umbrella were extremely challenging. Our first year goals were as follows:

1) Try to re-negotiate and/or cancel the HUD and Boston agreements.
2) A financial goal of an EBITDA break-even.
3) Get back in the good graces of our industry.
4) Win back our customers and lost market share.

When talking with other business professionals, most thought that achieving these goals was unrealistic for the first year. In fact, so did Wall Street. As a result, our stock price sat just over the 75 cent mark for almost eight consecutive months.

I'm happy to report that we actually bettered our first year expectations. We were able to have the Boston Agreement terminated and have received informal confirmation that the HUD Agreement will not be enforced. We have added new distributors and market share, as our order backlog is up over 40% from last year. By right sizing the company to its current sales levels through employment cuts and other cost reductions, we posted a positive EBITDA of $4.9 million for our first fiscal year ending April 30, 2002, and a positive EBITDA of $8.9 million for the last 12 months ending July 31, 2002. Last, but not least, Smith & Wesson has been welcomed back to the fold as we currently serve on all the major firearm industry committees and boards.
.
.
.

[Wildalaska]

I didnt know anyhting was wrong with them...still excellent quality control, reasonable prices, great service policy...

WildlikemAlaska

[cocojo]

From my standpoint I think they got their spanking. They have not conformed to the HUD agrrement which is all but dead. They lost numerous customers and many thousands of dollars. I firmly believe that they have learned their lesson. You can't be mad forever, and I think they realize that the HUD agreeement was not the route to have taken. I think that if the issue came forward today they would not sign anything. I just can't see sending a very good gun maker to chapter 11 for a mistake one person made who is no longer with the company and infact the owners don't even own the copmpany anymore. I will buy S&W now they make very good handguns and their service is excellent. You need to send in a gun they pay all postage and fix it for nada. That's my thoughts

[care-less]

S&W didn't sign the agreement, the British morons who owned them did. S&W is back in American hands, and deserve your support. Some of you sure do like to hate the Sigma. Have you ever owned one? No one I know who has one has ever had anything but high praise for them, and mine is a jewel. Went to the local indoor, and asked them about their rental Sigmas. Not an unkind word. Someone is full of it, or has an axe to grind.:fire: :neener:

[Tecolote]

I hate Sigmas from personal experience not hearsay. Went through three of them until the shop finally returned my money. I don't get the felt in the trigger area. Did Martha Stewart join the design team at SW?

SW was so smug in its position that it was blindsided by the switch from revolvers to autos that exploded in the 1980s. It was the biggest single change over in LE history. If SW had done some marketing research, if it would've followed the news just a little bit it would've known that LE everywhere were clamoring for more "firepower." Instead of agrresively marketing the proven 59- and 69- series SW sat on its butt and let first Beretta (LAPD contract), then SIG (Fed contracts) and then the Glock steamroller push it out of its place as a dominant player in LE. Hindsight 20/20 vision? Not in this case. To not see the change that was staring them in the face was nothing short of crappy management.

Instead of losing market share to Glock and wasting time on the Sigma flop SW could've easily continued with the 59- and 69-series with polymer frames. That in itself would've shored up sales. Why? SW had customer loyalty among LE. It's a well known make with a great reputation.

I wanted to avoid the HUD agreement and the boycott in this thread but it's inevitable that it come up. If SW had not made a bunch of bad marketing decisions they never would've needed the HUD agreement to keep them afloat. It doesn't matter that SW's owners are now Americans and that Brit owners signed the HUD agreement, the SW corporation is legally bound by the agreement not the owners. The agreement is still in effect and all it would take is an unfriendly administration to enforce it.:(

[nvcdl]

S&W has not repudiated the deal they made with Clinton.


I won't buy anything from them until they do.

[alamo]

S&W can't get out of the agreement although the new management would certainly like to. The agreement has the effect of a court order and can't be voided until BOTH parties agree to it. Thus far, the government/HUD has not agreed to kill it. That is the problem now, not S&W. Since it is not being enforced, I suspect HUD will finally agree to kill it at a politically convenient time, like after the 2004 elections.

[Jeff OTMG]

Blackhawk, you need to read this, there may be some interesting 'activity' from S&W in the coming year.

Tecolote, read this as well. There may be a S&W 9mm revolver in your future.

http://www.shotshowreports.com/2003pg4.html

[Erik Jensen]

I have but one beef with S&W...



MAKE BLUED GUNS AGAIN!!!! SOME PEOPLE ACTUALLY DISLIKE SHINEY GUNS!!!!! :cuss: :banghead: :fire:




and thank you for your support. :D

[stubby]

I think they made a big mistake when they put the full length under-lugs on all the revolvers. It should be an option, if you like it fine but if you don't, you are out of luck. I also dislike the new cylinder latch button. I guess I am just an old dog and prefer the S&W of the late 70's. Fine blue steel guns without unnecessary weight.:(

[stans]

Things that I think led to the down turn in S&W loyalty, and that is what is about!

Spotty quality control.

Dropping popular guns like the model 19 with 2 1/2, 4, or 6 inch barrels.

Dropping all the blued revolvers.

The infamous agreements that turned away the loyal customers.

[Sean Smith]

Is their new 1911 a gun, or a freakin' calendar? I can tell, because there is a huge freakin' date stamped on the side of the thing! Even Colt has the sense to not put huge, ugly block letters on the side of their guns anymore. Of course, that can't be said for Valtro, either. Not making your product uglier... what a concept! :rolleyes:

[J Miller]

Note that the Boston and HUD agreements have been either nullified or neutured. Give em another chance. No nead to boycott anymore.

I don't think the agreement is GONE at all. It was just convieniently swept under the rug.
When $&W comes out publicly and states( for the record, with legal documentation) that the agreement has been legally terminated and voided, so that it cannot be reinstituted by the next anti gun democrat administration then I will end my boycott of them.

It would also help if they would produce some guns I want. As it sits now they make nothing I want.
I don't like silver revolvers. I want blue. I can't stand their semi-autos. And for cryin out loud that 1911 clone they have introduced is ugly as hell. I'll buy a Springfiled 1911A1 milspec before I'd buy the $&W version.
So I guess I agree with the fact that the agreement was only part of $&W's downfall.
But a big part none the less.

[JohnBT]

I think changing their name to *&* did them in.

John

[nvcdl]

S&W could take the govt to court to nulify the agreement.
The new owners could make many good legal arguemens.

[alamo]

Here's what I posted on p.1 of the thread:

S&W can't get out of the agreement although the new management would certainly like to. The agreement has the effect of a court order and can't be voided until BOTH parties agree to it. Thus far, the government/HUD has not agreed to kill it. That is the problem now, not S&W. Since it is not being enforced, I suspect HUD will finally agree to kill it at a politically convenient time, like after the 2004 elections.

------------------------------

Going to court won't solve anything. A court isn't going to nullify a voluntary agreement between 2 parties unless BOTH agree to void it. Only one party wants to void it at this point.

[nvcdl]

It would be simple enought for S&W to publically state

" We disavove the agreement and won't abide by it".

This they have not done.

[aerod1]

Smith and Wesson is far from being out of business. I think the new 1911 they are coming out with is going to be a big seller for them. I may wind up with one.
Do I agree with the HUD agreement S&W made with the government? NO. Do I want to see them go bankrupt? NO. Would HCI like to see them go out of business? YES. Do I want them to continue making the high quality firearms that made them famous? YES. Will I buy their products? YES.
Just my thoughts.
Respectfully,
Jim Hall

[SW9mm]

i love my cs series S&W pistols. they are very reliable and very carriable(is carriable a word). my cs9 is my main carry weapon. when it comes to my protection politics aren't my top priority. i shoot my cs9 very accurately, its light, and it fits MY hand perfect. i've been through a few guns but the cs9 does it for me. i still love to carry my 1911 though. :D