Whatever happened to Occluded Eye Gunsights?


PDA






Kaylee
November 18, 2004, 09:51 PM
Finally getting a chance to play with a red dot, and you know... it seems at least as easy to use with the front lens cap closed as open.. the lack of "fuzz" in the sight picture seems like it might even be a hair faster...

So um... why did the OEG things go so completely off the scene? Was there some big flaw I've not found yet?

If you enjoyed reading about "Whatever happened to Occluded Eye Gunsights?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
esheato
November 18, 2004, 10:07 PM
I'm not sure why they're not more popular. A guy at our local shop ordered one in the other day. We mounted it for him and I got to play around with it. It seemed very fast. I'm curious as to the response also..

Maybe the ACOG had something to do with it...

Ed

Wildalaska
November 18, 2004, 11:58 PM
The Trijicon reflex is used as an OEG and is hugely popular in military circles. I ususally shoot with mine as an OEG at 100 yards

I talked to some guys coming out of Afghanistan that used their ACOGs as OEGs when room clearing.

Wildclear!Alaska

QuarterBoreGunner
November 19, 2004, 12:22 AM
ya'know what? I asked this very same question (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=34369&highlight=wither+OEG) once upon a time...

nemesis
November 19, 2004, 09:02 PM
Armson's are still available, I was considering putting one on my flattop. M-68 AimPoints are OEG sights also.

ETCss Phil McCrackin
November 19, 2004, 09:23 PM
Ok, I'll ask the dumb question.......

What is an OEG, and how do they work?

Bigfoot
November 19, 2004, 09:37 PM
It's a red dot sight that doesn't transfer an image or light. If you look though it all you see is the red dot in blackness. When used with both eyes open however, your mind sees the red dot on the target.

Jeff White
November 19, 2004, 10:39 PM
ET1ss Phil McCrackin asked;
What is an OEG, and how do they work?

OEG stands for Occluded Eye Gunsight. That means that one eye is blocked from viewing the target. You must have binocular vision for an OEG to work (some people don't). Basically one eye sees the red dot in the sight and the other eye sees the target. Binocular vision lets you see both at once, superimposing the image of the red dot on the target. They first became available in the late 1960s. They were never really popular. I'm not sure why. I think Redfield or Bushnell made a battery operated one that they sold to shotgunners.

In 1970 when COL Arthur Simmons was training the task force that flew into North Vietnam and took down the Son Tay Prison camp, he was searching for a way to increase the hit probability in the dark. His mission had top priority for everything and anything they wanted. Yet the military supply system was unable to come up with a suitable solution. Night vision devices like we know today were in their infancy. The then smallest weapons mounted NOD in existance was a prototype of what was to become the AN/PVS4 (which is very large and ungainly (but smaller then the AN/PVS2 then in use) and only 5 of those prototypes existed. The story is that one night Simmons and his armorer were trying to solve the problem when they came across an ad for the Armson OEG in either American Rifleman or Guns and Ammo (I've seen both version of the story in print). They ordered a couple to try and the team's hits went up dramatically. They local purchased enough for the men who raided the prison camp and they worked well.

I don't know why they never caught on. Perhaps because shooting with both eyes open is so alien to many people. As others have pointed out, you can use just about any of the red dot sights as an OEG. So all the naysayers who say you can't use an aimpoint because you're done if you splash mud on the objective lens are wrong.

Jeff

Bartholomew Roberts
November 21, 2004, 12:17 PM
Because OEGs depend on binocular vision to work correctly, there are several issues that are unique to OEGs and explain why they didn't catch on:

1) The zero is only good for a particular person - because every person has slight differences in distance between their eyes, the stance they shoot in, and the amount of phoria (eyes don't track together perfectly) they experience, an OEG will have a different zero for every person who picks up that weapon.

2) The zero is only good at a specific distance. Again; because of the tilt of your head, distance between eyes etc. the OEG will be exactly on target at only one range. At all other ranges it will show both horizontal and vertical deviation. Outside of 100yds, they start to become useless rapidly. Deviation can be huge too - 4-8 inches even over 100yds.

3) If you are right-handed; but left-eye dominant (or vice versa), the concept doesn't work as well since it relies on combining the views from your weak and dominant eye.

OEGs are very fast at room-length distances; but they have mostly been made obsolete by rugged, fast, parallax-free sights like the Aimpoint and EOtech (both of which can still be used as an OEG). The Armson is still more rugged than most sights in its price range; but due to the cost of tritium and manufacture, you can usually find even cheap red dots below that price range that don't suffer from the same issues (and you can always make a red dot sight into an OEG; but you can't make an OEG into a reddot).

Harry Tuttle
November 21, 2004, 01:11 PM
due to the feedneck blocking the top rail, they show up in paintball:
http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/sights/izon/index.shtml

shoobe01
November 21, 2004, 02:37 PM
Bart, these points tend to be true for most other sights, especially dots that are not occluded. People get over them with training. I know of a situations in the 70s with KCMO Reponse Unit where a marksman with a borrowed AR-15 wounded a BG instead of killing him because the gun wasn't sighted in right.

Another important innovation has been the Bindon Aiming Concept. That's how all the ACOGs with the external light gatherer's work, and I do the same even with a cheap illuminated riflescope. Bascially, if you have something over 3-4x magnification, and a sufficiently illuminated graticule, then when you go both-eyes open, the picture thru the optic occludes and the scene thru the left eye becomes dominant, with the aiming picture from the right eye superimposed. So, an OEG, with all its quickness. Close an eye and you are back to magnified precision.

While OEGs and aimpoints are (more or less) parallax free, an occluded ACOG is not. Never heard a complaint though. Just keep a consistent cheekweld and it will all go okay.

Armson OEGs are used in places where they make sense now mostly. Sorta like the paintball example, I have seen them on grenade launchers. Dial in a range, which angles the sight and when you line the dot onto the target, the gun is correctly elevated. For a grenade launcher, the elevation is so high the barrel blocks the sight picture. For an OEG, that doesn't matter though.

Shoobe, I thought I was replying to you and snipped parts of your post I agreed with. To my shame, I had actually edited your post. Please accept my apologies. There was nothing offensive or wrong with your post, I just screwed up - BR

Dbl0Kevin
November 21, 2004, 03:31 PM
Wow that's really weird. After reading this thread I had to go grab the AR out of the safe and try looking through the red dot with the front lens cover shut. Sure enough it still worked and put the dot right on target!! :what:

Guess ya learn something new every day. :)

Bartholomew Roberts
November 21, 2004, 03:35 PM
Bart, these points tend to be true for most other sights, especially dots that are not occluded. People get over them with training. I know of a situations in the 70s with KCMO Reponse Unit where a marksman with a borrowed AR-15 wounded a BG instead of killing him because the gun wasn't sighted in right.

There are slight shifts in aim based on individuals; but up to 8 MOA in the horizontal or vertical plane (or both)? Big difference. Sure, you can train around any disadvantage; but its easier to go with a superior product.

Another important innovation has been the Bindon Aiming Concept. That's how all the ACOGs with the external light gatherer's work, and I do the same even with a cheap illuminated riflescope. Bascially, if you have something over 3-4x magnification, and a sufficiently illuminated graticule, then when you go both-eyes open, the picture thru the optic occludes and the scene thru the left eye becomes dominant, with the aiming picture from the right eye superimposed. So, an OEG, with all its quickness. Close an eye and you are back to magnified precision.

I've owned an ACOG for two years now and been using them for four. I had exposure to the OEG back in 1985. While ACOGs use the same concept as an OEG, the important difference is that you can look through the ACOG and negate the problems mentioned above. You only use it in the same fashion as an OEG for close range.

While OEGs and aimpoints are (more or less) parallax free, an occluded ACOG is not. Never heard a complaint though. Just keep a consistent cheekweld and it will all go okay.

OEGs are definitely not parallax free - note my above statement. For that matter, as you point out an occluded ACOG isn't parallax free, so how could an OEG be? At close range, that won't make a difference. At longer ranges it will. That is why most people just use the BAC concept to put them in the vicinity of the target for longer ranges and use the magnified view to adjust the final aim.

Armson OEGs are used in places where they make sense now mostly. Sorta like the paintball example, I have seen them on grenade launchers. Dial in a range, which angles the sight and when you line the dot onto the target, the gun is correctly elevated. For a grenade launcher, the elevation is so high the barrel blocks the sight picture. For an OEG, that doesn't matter though.

OEGs are a nifty concept and still fun to play with on subguns and other close range fast shooting; but they are obsolete now.

444
December 20, 2004, 12:23 PM
http://www.trijicon-inc.com/user/parts/parts_new.cfm?categoryID=6

uxb
December 20, 2005, 02:41 PM
The original sight on the Son Tay raid was the Singlepoint sight, not the Armson OEG:

http://www.fototime.com/5283E7574096AE5/standard.jpg

I just purchased this one for an XM177E2-clone.

Here is a pic from the JFK Special Warfare Center Museum of an original Singlepoint in the mount:

http://www.usmilitaryknives.com/Son_Tay_raiderequip.jpg

I currently am running an Armson OEG from 1982 that has been refurbed by Trijicon on my XM177 clone:

http://www.fototime.com/E0479C00AB26227/standard.jpg

Over simplification of how they work - assuming you are right eye dominant:

Close your right eye, and your left eye sees this:

http://www.fototime.com/429877073161EF5/standard.jpg

Close your left eye, and your right eye sees this:

http://www.fototime.com/2690A2E73A59CB3/standard.jpg

Open both eyes and your brain translates the input from both as this:

http://www.fototime.com/53E99F8FF725BA4/standard.jpg

Mostly outdated, but still practical. They were the stuff back in the early 1980s, but have been replaced by "high-speed low-drag" stuff.

If anyone has one stored away in a box, or tool kit, or drawer and the tritium is dead and you are not using it, I would be interesting in purchasing it if it is the OEG that mounts on the AR carry handle.

Thanks,

uxb

Ironballs
January 18, 2006, 09:04 PM
i just picked up an Armson OEG (ar03) on gunbroker... supposedly new in box, and i assumed new production,... but the dot is to faint. I will call Trijicon tomorrow to see the born on date...

love the concept, and red dots in general (both eyes always open style shooting)- but if this is all you get/as bright as its supposed to be... then i would be dissapointed.. trijicon seems weak, as well as the day shooting which really bugs me...

MCgunner
January 18, 2006, 09:09 PM
It's a red dot sight that doesn't transfer an image or light. If you look though it all you see is the red dot in blackness. When used with both eyes open however, your mind sees the red dot on the target.

Being nearly blind in my right eye, I don't have any interest in 'em, never did. When they came out, I tried it and wondered what looking at a dot in blackness was supposed to accomplish. I have such severe astigmatism, I couldn't figure it out.

uxb
January 18, 2006, 10:17 PM
Ironballs, you may end up disappointed. The half-life of tritium is just over twelve years, meaning in twelve+ years your dot is half as bright as when started.

In the daytime, the brightness of the dot will vary with ambient light conditions. The brighter the light, the more transferred by the fiber optic. Bright light, bright dot. Dim light, dim dot.

The dot is only illuminated by the tritium at night. Compared to electronic sights like a Comp ML2, the dot is very dim. They were originally designed to be used after twenty minutes of dark-adaptation by your eyes. What appears to be a dim dot initially actually becomes quite visible after your eyes are dark-adapted.

Are they as bright as an Aimpoint or an EOTech? Nope. But they do work. I ran one on an XM177 in Central America in the early '80s, and back then it was "high-speed low-drag" and our hit ratio improved dramatically over plain iron-sights.

MCgunner, occluded eye gunsights only work for people who have good binocular vision. Astigmatism only makes things worse, even with non-occluded red-dot sights. Especially if the intensity is set too high. Then you just get a fuzzy dot or a "comma"-shaped dot with a "tail".

JohnKSa
January 19, 2006, 12:31 AM
WARNING! BEFORE reading farther, please read the disclaimer at the end of the post.

You can use the back of a pistol as an OEG for quick closeup work.

Rather than looking at the sights, look at the target THROUGH the back of the pistol. Of course there's no red dot, but the outline/silhouette of the slide frames the target and you can see the target through that silhouette. Very fast and surprisingly accurate.

Seventhsword
January 19, 2006, 08:15 AM
I picked up a Armson OEG AR04 last year for $70.00 NIB. The red dot is very bright, it's light weight and holds it's zero. I really like this sight, it's very fast and will keep pretty tight groups at 100 yards on my Bushy M4 ..:)

Grunt
January 19, 2006, 08:31 AM
Hey UXB, where did you find those early XM-177E2 sliding stocks? VERY cool!!!

Bartholomew Roberts
January 19, 2006, 11:00 AM
I picked up a Armson OEG AR04 last year for $70.00 NIB. The red dot is very bright, it's light weight and holds it's zero. I really like this sight, it's very fast and will keep pretty tight groups at 100 yards on my Bushy M4 ..:)

Holds its zero? I am guessing you are shooting it at the same range every time then. Try using it at 25yds, 50yds or 200yds. You'll see a noticeable shift in point of impact v. point of aim. It is still pretty handy for shooting at less than 100yds though and it is quite fast.

orionengnr
January 21, 2006, 07:02 PM
Quote:
"If anyone has one stored away in a box, or tool kit, or drawer and the tritium is dead and you are not using it, I would be interesting in purchasing it if it is the OEG that mounts on the AR carry handle.
Thanks,
uxb"

I have one, and it is the original Armson OEG with the AR15 carry handle mount. I sent you a PM with more details. Sent me a PM or email and make an offer.

Best, Rich

ART SCOTT
November 14, 2009, 03:02 PM
Reviving an old old old thread...............


wow this is very interesting ...... I tried out an Armson sight back in the mid eighties, but the one I tried had a white capsule over the dront end and if you looked into the back side of the tube it was just black.....the front capsule was a hydrogen isotope that emitted a blue dot that was easily seen at well over 100yds.

I was told that the use of them in Viet Nam was so the enemy could not just pick up a slain soldiers weapon and be accurate with it......... that the Armson sights were sigted in to each individuals eye and anyone else shooting the weapon could be of by as much as several feet ........even if off by a few inches could be life saving..........

I do not know for sure this just what I had been told by a few Viet Nam vets........

paintballdude902
November 14, 2009, 03:30 PM
due to the feedneck blocking the top rail, they show up in paintball:
http://www.warpig.com/paintball/tech...on/index.shtml

sorta but still not common, i saw a hand full of people use them when i was playing semipro

they aren't all that practical in the game since alot of us dont aim we point. but we all practice to make our pointing be the most practical since it doesnt take as much time as a true aim does

and you cant train a scope for trajectory its got the drop of a .44magnum x10 its not hard to see the arc of a paintball but we all learn to compensate


i wouldnt mind getting an oeg for home defense sounds like it would be a good match with my .30-30 HD gun

Justin
November 14, 2009, 03:49 PM
Progressive Machining made a flip-up OEG setup that could be mounted to the front of an ACOG. I run one on my 3Gun rifle, and it works well.

Basically, for targets from 0-50 yards, keep the cover on. For targets beyond that, I flip the cover down and use the ACOG.

Difference in aim/impact is about 2 inches at 30 yards, though, so I find I have to hold to the right to make a center hit.

Past 50 yards, it's completely useless.

tju1973
November 14, 2009, 04:02 PM
I had a friend in the Corps that "found" one while part of Marine Barracks Subic Bay-- we tried it out, and I really liked it-- took a little bit to get used to, but all in all, it was a good idea-- I have looked for one on the cheap and have been unsuccesful--

OEGs were pretty neat-- IMO...

JohnKSa
November 14, 2009, 08:50 PM
Difference in aim/impact is about 2 inches at 30 yards, though, so I find I have to hold to the right to make a center hit.

Past 50 yards, it's completely useless.Sounds like you have a slight strabismus. There's no other reason that I am aware of for there to be a divergence between the POI due to the OEG aiming method and the standard aiming method.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
November 14, 2009, 11:12 PM
They have the wandering zero problem but this is not a big deal for short-range rough & dirty gun work.

I like them a LOT for defensive shotguns - there is *nothing* faster than an OEG, whether designed that way, or a 1x ESD or magnified dot sight, converted to be used that way by slapping the front cover on.

One of the beauties of a sight like an ACOG is that you can use it generally with your 3, 3.5, 4, etc., magnification and front cap off, but then for CQB, slap the front cover on and you've got an instant 1x power CQB OEG, just like an ESD with front cap on.

uxb
November 15, 2009, 02:33 AM
Talk about back from the dead!

A comparison shot of the early Singlepoint compared to the later Armson:

http://www.fototime.com/DA2FE5072CE4B74/standard.jpg

I finally found an original strap mount for my Singlepoint:

http://www.fototime.com/457FB1C85F0FB81/orig.jpg

And finally built a GAU Son Tay Raider clone with a slickside upper:

http://www.fototime.com/7AC841741B7125C/standard.jpg

And some quick shots of the Task Force Ivory Coast Raiders with the real deal:

http://www.fototime.com/BE69FB37667ED8A/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/A909C20C5397600/orig.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/0318755AA7A4C94/orig.jpg

If you enjoyed reading about "Whatever happened to Occluded Eye Gunsights?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!