[cotzal]

Dear Americans,

How come you are all so illeterate and ignorant aboput your own laws? As far as I am aware the 5th ammendment does not say "You have the right to bear weapons"....It says "You have the right to bear arms".

The "Right to bear arms" means you have the right to bear a heraldic device (i.e. a coat of arms) into the field of battle.

Why is it that you let 'gun toting'- 'bo-hunk'-'hill-billy'-'capped-tobacco-chewing' 'militia arm-band wearing psycho-christians' rule your moral agenda. You listen to them as they say 'If everybody has a gun, we'll all be safe'.....why? Yet you wonder why the REST OF THE ENTIRE PLANET do not trust you.

And guess what...I'm 40 years old and I have never seen a privatley owned firearm, let alone had one pointed at me. Why? Because we have the intelligence in the UK to have worked out (yes, even our trailer trash sussed it out) that if noone has guns then noone gets shot!

This website is one of the most sickening I have seen on the web. An image of a pregnant woman holding a SMG! Children! It is designed to maintain the paranoia between neighbours, to hinder the advancement of the human race by the maintenence of gun-culture. Listen guys, the 1870's mid-west pioneering days are OVER. Billy the Kid is not going to hold up your wagon train anymore.

Wake up, smell the coffee, chuck your guns in the lake and step out of your door free from fear and paranoia.

Weapons go against God and his creation. Guns destroy...decreate that which God has created. Killing or destroying or carrying the devices to do so go against God. In fact if you carry a gun, you give God the big middle-finger.

If you feel you need a gun to keep yourself safe, then may I suggest Psychiatry and/or Cognitive Behavioural Therapy. With good therapy you will realise what a fallacy this argument is.

PLease, help forward the moral development of this planet. Save your moral-soul too. Destroy all guns and weapons. Jail those that do not. Save yourself, your country and OUR planet.

Thankyou

[Jake]

+1

[Barbara]

So..you like 9 mm or 45?

:D

[Justin]

Anyone got a Vorpal blade with +2 against bigoted ethnocentrism? :rolleyes:

[cotzal]

No need for suicide matey. Don't be so hard on yourself.

[CZguy]

Don't hold back.

All that repressed, internalizing, can really get to you!

[bytor94]

"Because we have the intelligence in the UK to have worked out (yes, even our trailer trash sussed it out) that if noone has guns then noone gets shot!"


Did not your Government, which you are a subject of, take them?

Our SECOND Ammendment was passed just so that OUR Government not take our guns

I don't have to have bars on my windows to keep out the riff-raff that knows I am defenseless either. :neener:

[Justin]

No need for suicide matey. Don't be so hard on yourself. Oh, how delightfully ironic. Last time I checked I wasn't the one posting all sorts of stereotyped generalizations about an entire culture of people.

[Dionysusigma]

Merriam-Webster's definition:
Main Entry: 3arm
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: Middle English armes (plural) weapons, from Old French, from Latin arma
1 a : a means (as a weapon) of offense or defense; especially : FIREARM b : a combat branch (as of an army) c : an organized branch of national defense (as the navy)
2 plural a : the hereditary heraldic devices of a family b : heraldic devices adopted by a government
3 plural a : active hostilities : WARFARE b : military service
- up in arms : aroused and ready to undertake hostilities

See also: How To Deal With Messages Of This Nature (http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm) :rolleyes:




Oh, and go ahead and give your peaceful Utopia a try. We'll provide covering fire for you when it turns to rot. :neener:

[thefitzvh]

Guys...

don't feed the trolls :-D

[Justin]

Dionysusigma-

Don't sweat it. Unless Mssr. Cotzal changes the tone of his messages to one that's a bit more civil, his membership priveleges may turn out to be quite fleeting indeed.

[Rich K]

"Let he among you who has no sword,sell his coat and buy one." JESUS CHRIST.That is enough for me.Just my 2 cents.

[cotzal]

But then again, my immediate reaction to a challenge was not violence. First replies immediatley brought out posts regarding guns and weapons. Interesting. In real life, how quickly would you therefore reach for a weapon? How quickly would someone else? This is the very basic attitude of all humans. We think of destruction to work our way out first. It betrays our Ape ancestry.

No one took our guns away, we never developed the habit to carry them. We didn't have the Pioneering need in 'New' lands where there were massive lawless areas. Guns have never been a big thing here. Even 95% of our Police force are (famously) without guns.

As for the translation of the expression 'Right to Bear Arms' (which is a standardised expression, like when someone says 'long arm of the law' they don't mean a rifle). here is another link http://www.heraldica.org/topics/right.htm. see also "Freedom of Speech and Expression"

I have also never ever ever had bars on my windows, nor barbed wire etc. I've never been burgaled yet either (touch wood) and if I ever am burgled, extremely unlikely the guy will have a gun anyway. And there is nothing I have in the world that is worth shooting or being shot over.

[Barbara]

First replies immediatley brought out posts regarding guns and weapons.

I was going to post about silkworms and pottery, but it seemed kind of out of place.

[Justin]

But then again, my immediate reaction to a challenge was not violence. First replies immediatley brought out posts regarding guns and weapons. Interesting.

You have got to be kidding. You show up on this board, spew a bunch of hateful, ill-informed vitriol in the most grand display of trollish behavior I've seen in at least a month and then when others respond with bemused sarcasm you accuse them of threatening violence? Just to clear things up, I've gone to the trouble of Googling the term Vorpal Blade (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Vorpal+blade%2C+Dungeons+and+Dragons&btnG=Search) for you. :rolleyes: I never thought I'd see the day when a reference to a nerdy paper 'n' pen board game would get me accused of violent behavior.

In real life, how quickly would you therefore reach for a weapon? How quickly would someone else? This is the very basic attitude of all humans. We think of destruction to work our way out first. It betrays our Ape ancestry. Spoken like a true statist. In short, you're stating that all of the other people that you share this world with must be ignorant cretins prone to violence, so measures must be taken to protect them from themselves. It must really suck to live in a world where you don't think you can trust your fellow humans to handle a small chunk of metal with a modicum of responsibility.

As for the translation of the expression 'Right to Bear Arms' (which is a standardised expression, like when someone says 'long arm of the law' they don't mean a rifle). here is another link http://www.heraldica.org/topics/right.htm. see also "Freedom of Speech and Expression" Again, I have to ask if you're kidding. Given that you couldn't even initially properly list the constitutional amendment that includes the right to keep and bear arms (RKBA) I find your assertion to be suspect and the implications outright laughable. Do you really think that the founders of this nation, who engaged in a grand display of tearing down the signs and trappings of royalty would then reverse themselves and include an amendment that would allow every able-bodied person to carry a crest with a pretty picture on it? On a battlefield?

[Radagast]

Hey Cotzal you winging pom, do you prefer Glocks or 1911s? Blued or stainless? IDPA or IPSC? Is the NRA too cozy with Washington or is GOA too extremist? Are Smith & Wesson still sell out traitors?
If you want to troll here we have standard formats that guarantee all the responses you could desire.

Barbara, definitely 9mm. .45s are for old relics who think there has been no improvements in small arms since 1911, and none between 1873 and then. :evil:

Ken, who's labourer was happy to leave London for Australia as he was fed up with the yardies carrying guns in his street.

[Psssniper]

We won
You lost
about a couple hundred years ago
remember?

[cotzal]

Yes yes Justin. I have known what Vorpal Blade is. I have been able to recite Lewis Carrol's The Jabberwocky for a long time now....I really don't know which board game you believe the expression came from.

AS for all the POM bit, well, My Mums English, my dad is from Texas and I was born and raised in Australia, I have lived in Denmark, Asia and Latin America for many years. I have a wide and varied global perspective and at least the Poms are not globally hated by all but a few suck-up politicians (Like Tony Blair). Sure not the most popular either.

I certainly did not imply that all the world are idiots, but the same movement will give idiots guns as well. And no, I wouldn't trust some people with such pieces of metal. Would you trust everybody that carried a gun? Concealed? Do YOU know if someone you meet may/may not go for his/her gun in an argument? Would you think of how 'safe' you would feel with a sidearm on you? Where there are no guns there are no thoughts or worries.

As for the founders of the nation, would these be the same extremist Puritans that we kicked out of England on the Mayflower who then went on to conduct medieval style witch hunts in the New World? Sure you had a grievance against GeorgeIII. He was completely and totally clinically mad. Loco. Tonto. As mad as a march hare. Up until the point of the constitutions my expression of right to bear arms was exactly what it meant.

well, I stated my point. You may revoke my privaledges as I can't be bothered to find the button. I only signed on to express how sickening I think this is. I was actually looking for images of wheelchairs which is how I came across the site.

[Moparmike]

After reading only the first post, I dont know wether to laugh hysterically, "pity the fool", or find him disturbing. :scrutiny:

[Tamara]

The "Right to bear arms" means you have the right to bear a heraldic device (i.e. a coat of arms) into the field of battle.

I have to know... Are you being serious? The right to bear heraldic arms? In a country with no vestigial holdover nobility? Look, friend, the only time you see a coat of arms in this country is on some little tchotchke picked up at some tourist trap like "Merry Olde English Village" or "Bavaria Haus" or suchlike, and it's faked.

[StandOnGuard]

It's the 2nd Amendment you're referring to, cotzal, not the 5th. The 5th Amendment guarantees, amongst other things, the right to due process, and the right not to have property arbitrarily confiscated (ie. eminent domain).

[erik the bold]

Being from Texas, you'd think his ol' man would have taught him something about our heritage. Unfortunately, his lack of education (see, I could have said ignorance... :p ) gives him the appearance of blissninny/troll.

Cotzal should really should read further into the background of this country, probably starting here: http://www.law.ou.edu/hist/federalist/ before spouting off on topics which he has obviously no clue. :banghead:

See sig. line for my opinion.........

[jdkelly]

I guess your'e a Chamberlain kind of guy. Nuff said?


With not so much respect,

jdkelly

[jamz]

While cotzal may seem like a troll, I invite him, if he's not, to stay and learn. Lots of people don't share our point of view- let's educate in the reasonable civilized manner that we always do :)

But I have to ask, cotzal, bear a suit of armor? That actually made me laugh out loud. And has anyone noted his quoting of the FIFTH amendment? The one pertaining to questioning in a crime?

For cotzal, here is the fifth amendment.

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

I believe you are really referring to the second amendment- that is the one that guarentees us Americans, as human beings, the right to excercize self defense.

[Jspy]

Just keep believing cotzal, and all will be well. Its a good thing the British govt has been kind enough to make these decisions for you. Hell, I wonder what in the world all of the upper crusts over there are going to do now that they can't even go fox hunting. By the way, what exactly is "burgled" or "burgaled" ? I'm guessing its similar to "shagged" which describes why people over there can't decide for themselves whether or not they have the mental capicity to control the use of firearms. Thank goodness for big govt. :)

[Highland Ranger]

Ironic that the reason the founding fathers came up with the Bill of Rights is in large part because of the abuses of the English troops and government . . . . . .

And yes, I'll correct you again 2nd Amendment . . . .

And as far as the rest of the planet, we'll get to them as soon as we are done with Iraq . . . .

;)

[yesterdaysyouth]

:what:

[Iain]

Of course he is not serious.

[tinfoil hat on] He's just another Brit bashing American trying to make Brits look stupid

(Well come on, some of you use more than your ration of tinfoil, it's about time I used some of mine.)

Course if I'm right - it doesn't take some of you very long to fall back on the "we won you lost" 'argument'.

Excuse me while I go make this fit properly, it itches.

[yesterdaysyouth]

http://www.sibeliusmusic.com/cgi-bin/show_score.pl?scoreid=20857

i love recorder music!!! :uhoh:

[Tamara]

:D

(I do wish some of my own fellow citizens would realize that poking fun at someone's alleged intellectual deficiencies, especially via a post that is itself riddled with errors, doesn't really reflect well on the home team.

It goes shiny side out, by the way. ;) )

[Stand_Watie]

If you look over on the roundtable forum you can see that there is a world full of people like this fellow...even when the subject isn't firearms...see the bonsai kitty thread.

While I was amused that someone who would deign to lecture us on illiteracy would spell it wrong (as well as amendment) and intrigued by the thought that someone who would call us ignorant of our own laws was so utterly ignorant of the Bill of Rights as to not know which amendment pertained to arms, but what I really want to know is if he made up that the right to bear arms = the right to a heraldic crest argument himself during a particularly choice bong hit or if one of his burnout buddies suggested it to him.

[Grey54956]

Wow. Wow. Wow...

Ignorance a plenty. Poor, poor Cotzal.

:barf:

[Byron Quick]

Where there are no guns there are no thoughts or worries.


cotzal,

Do you really believe that this statement has some congruency with reality?

If so, I wish that someone had tried to inform the man who used a three foot hickory sledge hammer handle to attempt an amateur craniotomy on me.

Friend, for some reason he stopped when I dodged his initial assault and began to draw a concealed handgun...and then there were no worries. He stopped his assault whereupon I stopped my defense.

So, what you are actually claiming is that it would have been better for me to have been beaten to death that day rather than saving my life with a concealed handgun?

I'm sorry, but I will have to respectfully disagree with your contentions.

In regard to your contention that you have no property worth being shot over or of shooting some thug over. I do. My basic human right to be left unmolested by criminals and thugs. Friend, it is legal by statute to shoot an unarmed intruder in the state where I live.

Oh, yes. Please study linguistics some more. Your contention that arms does not refer to weapons prior to the writing of the US Constitution is, quite frankly, laughable.

I almost forgot 'the rest of the world doesn't love us' claim. The European Union was not even able to stop genocide in the former Yugoslavia. The US sat and waited for them to display an ability to cope for years before finally intervening. And you really believe we should allow the opinions of such spineless incompetents to shape our policies? Foreign or otherwise? Tell you what: we'll allow consideration of their opinions when those countries show their opinions have value.

[Sleeping Dog]

I have also never ever ever had ... barbed wire etc.

In my neighborhood (middle class), all the garden walls had a layer of cement on top with glass bottles cemented along the entire top. Then all the bottles were broken, leaving a nasty row of glass shards. Not quite as humane as barbed wire, but very effective for a quiet area. Those walls don't exist in England anymore? Voluntarily removed for being too dangerous?


there is nothing I have in the world that is worth shooting or being shot over.

Living alone, are you? No kids? There are things worth shooting over.



Way in the past, it seemed that just about every Englishman had to own and shoot a longbow, good training for things like Agincourt. Ancient past, I know. When did the country decide to disarm? After the civil wars, Cromwell etc?


Regards.

[Baba Louie]

Per the thread tittle (sic)...
Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Per subject matter espoused...
yes, yes, yes cotzal, you are very correct. New world, religious zealots (imagine not wanting to believe only what the Crown told you you could believe... how stupid and "bo-hunk" "hill-billy") criminal/penal colony, upset natives trying to kill you for doing the same to them... and all. We are what we are, I'm afraid old man.

Our forefathers were a rebellious lot. Couldn't take Royals and others telling us what to do. Wanted to do our own thing and all. Something about freedom and being able to fend for ourselves. God given rights and all (there's that religious zeal again)

If I have an arm in my hand or my hand on my arm (preferably both), I then have the choice to either use it or not. There are very few times when I actually need it, but we do seem to have quite a few individuals within our land who are not quite as civilized as those in merry olde and from tyme to tyme they crop up or block your path.

What's a "bo-hunk" "hill-billy" to do? ;)

Stick around. You're a lot of fun. I can tell. We need more of your intellectual types to keep ourselves firmly aligned. Who knows? Maybe one of us will see the light and join you. Maybe.

In regards to your religious mind set concerning
Weapons go against God and his creation. If I recall the story about Cain and Able, jealousy over God's love provoked a man into killing his brother. Able shoulda had a .45 handy and kept a closer watch on his brother, but, he trusted him to be a nice guy. Oops. Maybe that's what happens when one tends sheep.

[Byron Quick]

Actually, they had largely disarmed after World War I.

That's why, in the days before Lend-Lease, private American citizens were donating their personal weapons to send to the British for home defense. Of course, the British destroyed those weapons after the war rather than sending them back home with a hearty thanks.

And now, this gentleman who is apparently ignorant of recent history, believes that we should place ourselves in an identical position in the future. Becoming unable to contribute to the defense of Britain, the defense of US territory, or self defense is such a wonderful, just, and logical cause.

[Grey54956]

From what I understand, the UK has a fairly high crime rate, and it is on the rise. And, since you don't have the basic human right to defend yourself over there, there isn't any awful lot anyone can do about it.

Oh, by the way, the UK used to have a fairly civil, well-armed populace. The drive to disarm the UK is fairly recent, being a product of the 1900's. It started back in the 1920's when the government feared communist insurrection, not crime. Of course, back then communist insurrection was a very real possibility, as WWI had caused an awful resentment for the government. As I recall, it was the ruling families of Europe that had plunged the world into war. Who can blame the people for wanting to overthrow a government who had sacrificed millions in a war over an aristocratic pissing contest.

Gun control didn't come from a desire to curb crime, it came from a desire to control and subjugate the masses.

The UK didn't "have the intelligence in the UK to have worked out that if noone has guns then noone gets shot". You're way off base there. The UK's rulers had the forsight to figure out that "if noone has guns" the leadership won't get shot, hung, or otherwise killed in a violent anti-gov't uprising due to their own inability to manage the country. Essentially, the whole drive to disarm the UK is, and always has been, to protect the gov't from accountability.

Learn some history. Oh wait, since you are a subject to a nanny state that decides what you learn and what you can think, they will probably teach you their version of history where the "merry citizens of the empire threw their weapons into the sea, and lived happily ever after in a village of gum drop houses and yellow brick roads."

The UK can sink for all I care.

[MM]

Cotzal,
I guess we were not too backwards and boorish to pull the UK's nuts out of the fire twice in the last century!
SatCong

[G36-UK]

Don't worry guys, not everyone in the UK is a "bawbag" like cotzal.

Some of us are actually quite intelligent. It's just morons like him and our "Gun Control Network" and other such liars are given more press time that the sensible few.

*edited for spelling. I guess I'd better get my sig too.*

[middy]

There's a good essay on how to deal with hoplophobes here (http://www.jpfo.org/ragingagainstselfdefense.htm).

[fletcher]

The 5th Ammendment

Dear Americans,

How come you are all so illeterate and ignorant aboput your own laws?



Winner.

[Standing Wolf]

More lively, thought-provoking, searching intellection from the country that lost the American revolution and was saved from barbarity by America not once, but twice in the last century.

[saddenedcitizen]

'if noone has guns then noone gets shot!'

Nice theory - but sadly, untrue -
Last I heard, there ARE people in England with guns and they
are not the kind of people one would consider 'good' (Hint - the
good, law abiding people gave up their guns !!)

You say you have nothing worth shooting someone for or
worth being shot for.

Sorry, but I do, (my children come IMMEDIATELY to mind).

As for saying you have nothing worth being shot for - well
that's entirely subjective.
YOU may feel that way about your belongings but OTHERS
(the ones mentioned above) may NOT.Your solution, I
assume would be to hand over whatever
the robber wanted and then he/she/they would go away
happy.
How big of a list would you be willing to read of people who
thought (past tense) the same way and wound up DEAD
because of the reluctance of the robber to leave eyewitnesses
alive.

You say that you have never had a gun pointed at you.
Neither have I, BUT, how many times do you think this
could happen with an acceptable outcome (you live !!)

You see, you live in the world of 'nothing bad
has ever happend to me, therefore it never will'

Hopefully you will never be faced with a situation where
you suddenly see with amazing clarity just how wrong you are,
an instant before the noise, muzzle flash, pain and the
terrifying realization that you are going to die NOW.

All because of the childish (Jimmy Carter) like belief that
'If I am a good person then everyone I come in contact
with will be good as well'

Sad.

[PlayTheAces]

Ahhh, nothing quite like waking up late on a Sunday morning, enjoying a cup of good coffee, and reading the comics.........................................:D

[Derek Zeanah]

St Johns: his IP indicates that this was posted from the UK. Sorry -- I'd hate for someone like him to claim to represent the US, so I can sympathize.

Now, on to a couple of points made in the original post:

How come you are all so illeterate and ignorant aboput your own laws? As far as I am aware the 5th ammendment does not say "You have the right to bear weapons"....It says "You have the right to bear arms".You're half-right. It's the second amendment, and it references "arms" instead of "weapons." With regard to your assertion that this means you can carry family standards to battle, I have to disagree. I could point you to references by the founders that indicate otherwise, but instead I'll just point you to Noah Webster's definition (http://65.66.134.201/cgi-bin/webster/webster.exe?search_for_texts_web1828=arms).

Why is it that you let 'gun toting'- 'bo-hunk'-'hill-billy'-'capped-tobacco-chewing' 'militia arm-band wearing psycho-christians' rule your moral agenda.What exactly is a militia arm-band? Where can I buy one? Got a web link?

By the way, this site is run out of my house, on my server, using my web connection, without charge. I'm Muslim. Just thought you might want to know.

You listen to them as they say 'If everybody has a gun, we'll all be safe'.....why? Yet you wonder why the REST OF THE ENTIRE PLANET do not trust you.Because the REST OF THE ENTIRE PLANET has issues with fact-checking, and prefers emotional arguments as they're easier to digest?

Simple 10-minute research project for you: the last few decades have seen a huge increase in the number of US States that have "shall-issue" concealed carry laws, which mean that unless the state can show reason to prohibit you from carrying (like a felony conviction) then they must authorize you to carry a concealed weapon. Now, do a web search to find the crime rates in these areas, and how they've changed since concealed carry reform. If your assertion is correct, that more guns in circulation reduce the public safety, then you should be able to establish this using public records fairly quickly.

If not, I'll assume you're more interested in emotional arguments than facts.

Oh -- for giggles, check the crime rates in those areas that still limit civilian access to weapons (outlaw CCW, or even outlaw firearm possession) and compare them to the rest of the country. Not scientific, but it might point you to an interesting correlation.

Why? Because we have the intelligence in the UK to have worked out (yes, even our trailer trash sussed it out) that if noone has guns then noone gets shot!So, it's your assertion that no-one in the UK has been shot with weapons that have been outlawed? If so (I doubt it is), are you suggesting that the safety of the populace at large has been increased by this anti-gun stance? What're the odds of being mugged in the UK again, versus my home state (Florida, though thankfully only for another year?)

This website is one of the most sickening I have seen on the web. An image of a pregnant woman holding a SMG! Children! It is designed to maintain the paranoia between neighbours, to hinder the advancement of the human race by the maintenence of gun-culture.No, it's designed to be a place for responsible gun owners to hang out and have pleasant discussions -- pleasant debates even. Trust me on this one -- I've been there from the start.

Listen guys, the 1870's mid-west pioneering days are OVER. Billy the Kid is not going to hold up your wagon train anymore.The argument you'll get here is that disarmed populations are at much greater risk from their own governments than they ever were from bandits. We can bring up those statistics if you'd wish. Yes, I know, people in Europe have nothing to fear, as Europe is civilized and would never engage in genocide. Hell, it's been civilized for most of the US's history...

Weapons go against God and his creation. Guns destroy...decreate that which God has created. Killing or destroying or carrying the devices to do so go against God. In fact if you carry a gun, you give God the big middle-finger.So, when jews were offering sacrifices as the Temple in Jerusalem, they were really saying "F U" to God? When we slaughter animals for food, God is taking offense? When the UK government issues firearms to its law enforcement folks, it's actually a big secular statement telling God to back off?

PLease, help forward the moral development of this planet. Save your moral-soul too. Destroy all guns and weapons. Jail those that do not. Save yourself, your country and OUR planet.Lead by example. Start with your government and police. Or, did you really mean that you'd prefer our betters remain armed, to better keep us in line?

[MICHAEL T]

HE's still mad that Kerry lost. :D

[MikeB]

Weapons go against God and his creation. Guns destroy...decreate that which God has created. Killing or destroying or carrying the devices to do so go against God. In fact if you carry a gun, you give God the big middle-finger.

Since I don't believe in God. I'm not to awful worried about his opinion on firearms.

Because we have the intelligence in the UK to have worked out (yes, even our trailer trash sussed it out) that if noone has guns then noone gets shot!

Really, I think you should have a talk with this chief Constable, apparently he thinks gun crimes are a problem in the UK. How is that possible I thought you banned guns there. Oh that's right criminals don't obey the law, that's why their called criminals.

We are overrun by gun crime, says police chief (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/10/10/ncrime10.xml&sSheet=/portal/2003/10/10/ixportal.html)

[Graystar]

Ahhh, nothing quite like waking up late on a Sunday morning, enjoying a cup of good coffee, and reading the comics.........................................That says it all. I can't believe this thread hasn't been closed yet. :rolleyes:

[Ian]

Greystar, I imagine it's hard to hit the "delete" button when you're laughing too hard. I know I'm having trouble just typing out this post... :)

[Iain]

Derek -

I was definitely clutching at straws there.

----------

Nice to see that a number of posters read and fully understood my previous post. It's always great to be listened to.

[psyopspec]

I'm way to hungover to be dealing with this right away on a Sunday morning...

[chaim]

Why is it that you let 'gun toting'- 'bo-hunk'-'hill-billy'-'capped-tobacco-chewing' 'militia arm-band wearing psycho-christians' rule your moral agenda.

Hmm, lets see how this "expert" sociological observation stacks up.

-"Gun-toting?": I live in a state that limits our freedoms so I can't carry, but I do own guns and have them available for home defense so I guess this one is half way there.

-"Bo-hunk?": Not sure what this means?

-"Hillbilly?": Well, I am proud of my dad's family. They are from Greene County PA, one of the most rural and poorest counties in PA and just outside WVA (and yes it is in the Appalacian foothills). On that side we've been here since the Revolution or before (depending upon the family line), we fought in the Revolution and Civil War, we were mostly farmers, and we tended to be highly educated compared to the national average of the time.

However, I was born in one of the 20 most populous cities in the US. Raised in a suburban area in one of the largest metro areas in the US (Baltimore-Washington area) and a suburb of one of the largest and most powerful cities in the world (I spent 4 years in private schools with the "elite" in Washington). So I guess I can't qualify as a "hillbilly" (too bad too, some of the best people I know might qualify by this guy's standards as "hillbillies").

-"Capped?": I rarely wear a baseball cap, but I do wear a kippah/yarmulke, and occasionally I wear a Borsolino style black hat (http://hatalog.com/MensDressHats.htm). Does that count?

-"Tobacco-chewing?": Does my occasional pipe smoking count.

-"militia arm-band wearing psycho-christians?": Hmm, I was in the Army, does that count as "Militia"? Never wore an arm band, I think he/she is trying to say here that conservatives/traditional values=Nazis. As a Jew I find that trivialization of Nazism, and unwarranted attack on conservatives and traditional values dangerous and offensive, but that was the idea. As an Orthodox Jew I am very sure I don't qualify as a Christian. Definately not a psycho, I'm quite psychologically balanced thank you very much.


--Hmm, looks to me, that at least in my case, he/she greatly mischaracterizes the right and gun owners (on some issues I'm right wing, and I do hold traditional values and I'm certainly a gun owner). The characterizations are quite elitist of him/her however, which is very much in keeping with the character of most gun-grabbers.


yes, even our trailer trash sussed it outAhh, more inaccurate, bigoted, and stereotyped characterizations of classes of people. How very liberal of you (note- for THR liberals, I'm not saying liberals do this per se, I'm saying that liberals tend to pride themselves on being tolerant and I'm pointing out that this person is not).

Yet you wonder why the REST OF THE ENTIRE PLANET do not trust you. Why should we care what the rest of the planet thinks, its been wrong more than once before. Even today, much of Europe has kept a vestige of Socialism. During Reagan's term most of the world thought our military build up made a nuclear war with the USSR more likely, instead it helped speed up the bankruptcy of the USSR and end the Cold War. Most of the world thought the way to deal with Hitler was appeasement so this isn't a new thing. Most of the world thinks the way to deal with terrorists is to "understand them", negotiate with them, appease them, excuse and often ignore their actions, while at the same time attacking those who take action to defend themselves from said terrorists. I think I'd rather care about what is right, than what the rest of the world thinks (and they can keep their opinions to themselves when it comes to advocating the government stealing my property).

Weapons go against God and his creation. Guns destroy...decreate that which God has created. Killing or destroying or carrying the devices to do so go against God. In fact if you carry a gun, you give God the big middle-finger

Actually, G-d requires us to take concrete actions on our own behalf. We are not allowed to rely on miracles (even though G-d does provide them on occasion). In fact, not only does Hashem expressly condone self-defense up to and including killing an attacker to save the intended victim (it is implied in the written Torah, what most here call the Old Testiment, and it is expressed directly in the Talmud), there is an arguement to be made that G-d requires us to have the means to defend ourselves if the need arises.

PLease, help forward the moral development of this planet. Save your moral-soul too. Destroy all guns and weapons. Jail those that do not.
I don't see how it furthers moral development to lie down for those who would do you harm and to jail moral and law abiding citizens who refuse to do so. How does it futher moral development to make life easier for the predators of the world?

It's the 2nd Amendment you're referring to, cotzal, not the 5th. The 5th Amendment guarantees, amongst other things, the right to due process, and the right not to have property arbitrarily confiscated (ie. eminent domain).

Yup, especially ironic that he/she mislabels an amendment that specificially ennumerates many governmental abuses and bans them, and protects private property, as the RKBA in his/her diatribe against private ownership of guns. The 2nd Amendment is the Amendment that does the most to protect the 5th, and the 5th would need to be completely ignored to do what he/she suggests should be done.

[Byron Quick]

No reply, cotzal? Surely you can match wits with these bo-hunk hill billy trailer trash? And figure out how to use spell check?

[Stickjockey]

U.S. Constitution, Amendment 2:

A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

(Webster's Unabridged Dictionary)

Cotzal, please tell me how it would help a militia to be considered "well-regulated" (in this instance meaning well-equipped. No really; look it up) by allowing the people of the country to have and wear brightly-decorated surcoats?

[spartacus2002]

Stick around. You're a lot of fun. I can tell. We need more of your intellectual types to keep ourselves firmly aligned.

Big +1. Cotzal needs a new forum entitled "The Funny Pages."

[mnrivrat]

Quote : "As far as I am aware the 5th ammendment does not say "You have the right to bear weapons"....It says "You have the right to bear arms". "

Cotzal ,

Your awareness is near comotose , and your argument crepitus !

[Justin]

Greystar, I imagine it's hard to hit the "delete" button when you're laughing too hard. I know I'm having trouble just typing out this post... :)

You'll have to excuse your moderator, he has a terribly warped sense of humor. :D

[wizmar]

You people in the UK are so dated, you brag about no Guns, but you have no problem cutting womans throats (Jack the Ripper) also it is none of your Business what people do in this country, at least we are Not Cowards, we do something about the problem not wait for someone else to do it.

[Justin]

well, I stated my point. You may revoke my privaledges as I can't be bothered to find the button. I only signed on to express how sickening I think this is. I was actually looking for images of wheelchairs which is how I came across the site.

Just stop posting. There is no "unregister me" button. It's odd, but we get a lot of requests like that from people of your sort. It usually happens once they've been thouroughly pwned. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pwned) Amusingly, this usually happens about 4.3 nanoseconds after people like you realize that we aren't just a bunch of inbred, knuckle-dragging, hate mongering, tobacco-spitting, room-temperature IQ imbeciles.

Oh, and I find your contempt for my civil rights just as sickening. The only thing I wish is to be left alone, to pursue my life in accordance with the principle of non-agression. Unfortunately those of your ilk are incapable of grasping that simple philosophical concept.

Cheerful Regards,
Justin

[Iain]

You people in the UK are so dated, you brag about no Guns, but you have no problem cutting womans throats (Jack the Ripper) also it is none of your Business what people do in this country, at least we are Not Cowards, we do something about the problem not wait for someone else to do it. So do not worry about our Gun problems worry about getting more Dentist in yours.

You sound like a Girley type person.

What a great post.

Now excuse me, my toothache is driving me so crazy I'm about to go off and kill a few prostitutes (cos it's in my heritage right) and maybe then I'll dig up Stalin and tell him he wasn't such a bad fellow and perhaps we could come to an arrangement. And then I'll go have a drink with those squaddies who we never sent to Iraq.

Yep. That's what it's like over here.

[Tamara]

You people in the UK are so dated, you brag about no Guns, but you have no problem cutting womans throats (Jack the Ripper) also it is none of your Business what people do in this country, at least we are Not Cowards, we do something about the problem not wait for someone else to do it.

That'll be enough for one thread.

In case some of y'all who are desperately trying to prove cotzal right haven't noticed, we have productive, polite members of this forum who are citizens of the UK. Quit it.