Bad news. Hunter loses it, kills five, wounds others


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hillbilly
November 21, 2004, 07:45 PM
http://www.kstp.com/article/stories/S4381.html?cat=1

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BREAKING NEWS:
Five murdered, three wounded in shootings

Updated: 11/21/2004 06:10:03 PM



EXELAND, Wis. -?Five people are dead and three injured in a shooting incident that apparently began over a hunting dispute in western Wisconsin.

The confrontation began around noon in?a rural area southwestern Sawyer County. Authorities said a hunting party returning to their deer shack reported seeing a hunter unknown to them occupying their tree stand. That led to a shooting.

One of the shooting victims used a walkie talkie to radio back to the deer shack for help. When the victim's hunting partners came to the scene, they were also shot.

Sawyer County was in a virtual lockdown as authorities searched for the gunman. One suspect was eventually taken into custody around 5:15 p.m.

The suspect's name has not been released.

Officials at Lakeview Medical Center in Rice Lake said they have treated at least three gunshot victims.?They said one of the victims was transported to a hospital in Marshfield, WI. Another victim is in critical condition and is undergoing surgery. The third victim is in fair condition in the intensive care unit.

Watch 5 EYEWITNESS NEWS for updates on this breaking news story.

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Preacherman
November 21, 2004, 08:08 PM
Ye gods... shot over a dispute about a deer stand? And we hunters laught at inner-city kids killing each other over shoes, or a boom-box? I guess some of us are just as stupid... :(

Standing Wolf
November 21, 2004, 08:16 PM
I guess some of us are just as stupid.

That or dumber: one doesn't expect much of juvenile delinquents.

Atticus
November 21, 2004, 08:20 PM
Sounds more like one wakco opened fire on the guys who caught him trespassing.
Not to be flippant on a serious and sad event...but I didn't realize that a "deer rifle" could be used to kill multiple people....was he using an AK?

hillbilly
November 21, 2004, 08:22 PM
According to posts where I orginally found it, the shooter is allegedly a Hmong man from Minneapolis, and was using an SKS.

But I haven't found any official links for that info.

hillbilly

PromptCritical
November 21, 2004, 08:47 PM
So, when does the knee-jerking start. I was expecting "sniper-rifle" outcries. If it was an SKS, some ignorant reporter will call it an "assault weapon" and we'll have to listen to that crap again. And then there's the age-old story about the inbred, mouth-breathing, redneck hunters.

Ok, Im done now... :cuss:

Daedalus
November 21, 2004, 08:54 PM
Animal rights extremist maybe?

The Grand Inquisitor
November 21, 2004, 09:09 PM
It was probably just some kook who wanted to use his weapon to kill things with....whichever kind of animal he obviously didn't care.

4v50 Gary
November 21, 2004, 09:18 PM
Getting into a fight for a deer is bad enough but to shoot one another over a treestand? Poor sportsmen is an understatement. :(

orangeninja
November 21, 2004, 09:21 PM
How could you shoot so many people with High Powered Rifles and not get hit?

hed_spase
November 21, 2004, 09:28 PM
They just showed a teaser for tonights news. They flashed a pic of the rifle used. It was an SKS. This is not good.

:mad:

Bigjake
November 21, 2004, 09:28 PM
Daedalus,

That thought had also crossed my mind... domestic terrorists

Greg L
November 21, 2004, 09:39 PM
Daedalus,

My first thought too while waiting for the thread to open, some sort of extreme PETA/ELF type.

Not good any way that it went down :( .

rick_reno
November 21, 2004, 09:40 PM
What insanity!

Hawkmoon
November 21, 2004, 09:46 PM
Don't know if this belongs under "Hunting" or "Roundtable," but I felt this was more appropriate:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/11/21/wisconsin.shootings/index.html

Five hunters killed in Wisconsin woods

Police: Dispute over deer stand apparently led to shootings

Sunday, November 21, 2004 Posted: 8:34 PM EST (0134 GMT)

(CNN) -- Sheriff's deputies were investigating the killings of five hunters Sunday in northwestern Wisconsin, apparently sparked by a hunting dispute that turned violent.

Three others were wounded, said Julie Veness, an emergency medical technician in Exeland, Wisconsin.

Saturday was the opening of the nine-day deer season, and the shooting appeared to stem from a dispute over land in the heavily wooded area, Veness said.

"Apparently, the person was asked to leave and get out of his deer stand, and he didn't take it very well and he fired away at them," she said.

A state police official said a man wanted in connection with the shootings has been arrested, but no details were immediately available. The Sawyer County Sheriff's Department, which is investigating the killings, had no comment.

Jennifer Greshowak, a spokeswoman for Lakeview Medical Center in Rice Lake, said three wounded men from the same hunting party were brought to that facility after suffering gunshot wounds. One of the three was transferred to a hospital in nearby Marshfield; one was in surgery Sunday afternoon, while the third was in intensive care, she said.

Veness said the killings have shocked Exeland, a village of 219 people.

"It just doesn't happen in this neck of the woods," she said. "We don't expect any of this to happen."

Preacherman
November 21, 2004, 09:54 PM
Duplicate threads merged.

TrapperReady
November 21, 2004, 10:03 PM
Sad. Some people are just wired wrong.

While I'm sure this one will get dissected every which way, from what kind of gun was he using, to what's the best way to respond, etc, etc...

In the midst of this, please take a couple moments to pray for those hunters and their families affected by this event.

Dbl0Kevin
November 21, 2004, 10:05 PM
The spin starts already. I just heard on FOX News in the blurb them call it an "automatic weapon". Then on the News ALERT for Geraldo he said "the man took out an assault rifle and killed 5".

Hold on to your hats gentlemen. :rolleyes:

WingZero
November 21, 2004, 10:29 PM
I just watched the Geraldo coverage of the story, and the only thing that is known......... is that the guy who killed those people was trespassing on private property, and is vietnamese.

2nd Amendment
November 21, 2004, 10:40 PM
There are some true nuts out there who have nothing to do with the PETA loons. A few years back I found three people in stands on a piece of my property, different locations. Two left quietly, even apologetically. The third decided to argue, then point his shotgun at me. I really thought the crazy SOB was going to pull the trigger.

I shouldered my 30-30(I wasn't intending to hunt and brought the rifle "just in case", not sure of what "just in case" might cover) and told him mine was a lot more accurate than his probably was and he could either leave or neither one of us would. He thought on it a while(yeah, he actually sat and debated the proposition) then packed it in. And before anyone yells at me for not just leaving, there was 70+ yards of clear sight around that tree in every direction. I didn't see retreat as anywhere near a viable option with this clown at my back.

This particular piece of property is prime hunting ground for this area(though small) and over the years my dad and I have caught drunks, people stoned out of their minds, people with lousy attitudes and even people who stood there and argued with us that THEY owned it. So while it might be an anti-hunting type I'll just say again, there are some real freaks out there wearing camo and calling themselves hunters. *sigh* Either way, this is going to suck.

wintermute76
November 21, 2004, 11:18 PM
I just saw it on Channel 11, what a shame. I was just saying last weekend, well no one got shot this season. :banghead:

Reporter called it a semi-automatic assault weapon :rolleyes:

Ryder
November 21, 2004, 11:34 PM
I hear John Kerry hunts. Nawwwww, couldn't have been. :D

Mostly gave it up myself several years ago. After about 30 years of hunting I perceived things just got freaky and seemed to get increasingly worse year by year. Do hunters have a lower average IQ than the general population? I don't know for sure but just try driving before daylight during the season and see how many of these brain surgeons can figure out how to work a dimmer switch. :fire:

Many of them are not Second Amendment supporters and wouldn't care any more about losing their firearms rights than if you were to confiscate their chinese checkers or dominos set. It's a mistake to align yourself with them by the simple fact that they own a gun. John Kerry owns a gun too. How much do you have in common with him?

Many of my best friends hunt and even much of my family. None have ever mentioned a care for gun rights. :confused: I still take my chances to venture out once a year just to reminisce with nature but it's still frustrating to have to deal with the unethical slobs (thieves, liars, and vandals) infesting the woods these days.

scromp
November 21, 2004, 11:52 PM
The third decided to argue, then point his shotgun at me. I really thought the crazy SOB was going to pull the trigger.

I shouldered my 30-30 (and didn't shoot him.)

Wow, you have some serious restraint. I think I'd have popped him at that point. Pointing a gun at me in anger = sorry pal, the jury's on my side.

Phantom Warrior
November 22, 2004, 12:08 AM
Not a bad idea to have a sidearm even when hunting. In MN you don't even need a carry permit if you are out hunting.

I ended up needing mine this year, to put down a deer. AFTER my friend dropped it on the run with his 1911...(thanks buddy)

campergeek
November 22, 2004, 12:11 AM
I'm anxious to hear more about the shooter - and the shooting. From the reports posted here it sounds like one trespasser killed 5 and wounded 3 while squatting in a deer stand. Did none of the victims return fire? In a group of deer hunters surely they had at least one accurate rifle between them, and on their own land surely they could find someplace to return fire from cover. I'm no tactician, but it sounds as if something is missing in the story - that or the shooter was there with a plan to take out a bunch of people. Otherwise the situation doesn't seem right with odds of 1 against 8+.

Perhaps someone here has info that can clear up my confusion.

Borachon
November 22, 2004, 12:11 AM
I read that he was Vietnamese.

Probably no word on this yet, but has anyone heard if he is an immigrant to the US? I wonder if he wasn't an ex-soldier from either North or the South Vietnam's Army. If he was a Northern soldier, he might have had different reasons for shooting them than just as a hunting dispute. He may have been there deliberately to shoot some armed Americans......like he use to do in the old days. Maybe this was delayed stress or an old grudge.

2nd Amendment
November 22, 2004, 12:21 AM
Wow, you have some serious restraint. I think I'd have popped him at that point. Pointing a gun at me in anger = sorry pal, the jury's on my side.

Restraint hell, I was scared spitless plus all I could think was if I shot the silly sod I'D be the one that went to jail. Probably stupid to think of such a thing under the circumstances but El Tejon's voice kept echoing in my head. :)

Borachon
November 22, 2004, 12:21 AM
I'm no tactician, but it sounds as if something is missing in the story - that or the shooter was there with a plan to take out a bunch of people.

My thoughts exactly. Also his choice of weapon made me question this whole thing. A Vietnamese with an SKS rifle might be a guy using a gun he is familar with to hunt deer.....or it might be a guy using the same weapon he once used in Vietnam because he is ready to start killing some people.

You asked if other people couldn't have accurately fired back on him. I wondered about that also. He could have simply been headed back to his car and they all bumped into each other on the only trail, and he shot them more rapidly because they weren't armed with semi-automatics.

But I also think it becomes a little more possible given his ethnicity and choice to weapon to wonder if this "hunter" could have killed them because he had been schooled in ambush tactics. He might have seen the people asked for help on the walkie talkie and knew that this was going to announce the arrival of others soon. So he set up an ambush and got them while they were walking in on the trail.

All speculation on my part, but it was the first thing that occured to me.
I guess you'd call this the "Wisconson Asian Rambo conspiracy theory".

tulsamal
November 22, 2004, 12:35 AM
It can get dicey out there when you find somebody on your property. And it can get even worse when everybody is carrying a gun! I own and live on 90 acres and I'm always worried I'm going to bump into some city fool with a rifle who decides to swing it up on me when I tell him to get back over that barbed wire fence. Nobody wants to have to shoot anybody and I sure don't want to get shot myself.

I had a LOT of trouble with coon hunters on my property. I tried to talk to the Sheriff about it but he said they had "legal right" to be on my property since they were just "retrieving their dogs." See, it's not their fault where their hounds go. And they can't just LET them go so they have to chase after them. It would make my dogs all go crazy and nobody would get any sleep. (This used to always happen at around midnight on a Thursday night for some reason.) I would go out there with a FAL or AR and track them around until I would get a chance to tell them to leave. I wasn't happy about the whole thing but at least they were always over in the far woods to my east. Then one night I looked out the kitchen window and they had stopped their truck on the easement road (my fence) and were in my front pasture with dogs and flashlights. This is straight south from my house and in plain sight of the house maybe 400 yards away. The dogs were running around baying and the people were going from tree to tree shining lights. It didn't look like anybody was "retrieving their property" to me. It looked like a bunch of people looking for coons. (Which they don't even shoot but let's not even go there!)

I went and grabbed the Glock 17. It was pretty dark. I went through two gates until I was next to my upper pond. I have a target stand there. I turned my body until the gun was pointed about 45 degrees away from the people and pointed at the target stand. And the gun was sharply angled downward so I figured the bullets would go through the stand and then into the ground within 6-10 feet. But by firing the Glock at a 45 degree angle to them I figured they would be able to see some muzzle flash. I then quickly fired ten shots. And then I started screaming that I was sick of this sxxx and to get the fxxx off my property. Those flashllights moved back to the running pickup really fast!

The next day I got a visit from the deputy sheriff. He said the guys had flagged his car down and told him some crazy guy back there was shooting at them! They claimed the bullets were just whizzing right by them and they were just "trying to get their dogs." (At this point the deputy sheriff told me once AGAIN that they are allowed to come onto my property for that.) But, to give the deputy credit, he asked the guys if any of them or their pickup had been hit. They had to say no. We had a good talk and he told me not to do that anymore. He pointed out to me that at LEAST two bad things could have happened. One, the guys could have been smarter. They could have pulled over by the side of the road and fired one or two rounds from one of their guns into the side of the pickup. I would have had a MUCH harder time then. Or two, these local yokels could just decide they don't like me and "somebody will just find you out in the woods."

Things have gotten calmer around here since then. No coon hunters ever came on my property again. And I talked to a local guy a year or so later who didn't know me. He was surprised when he figured out where I lived. He said he heard there was some crazy guy that lived in that house who would shoot anybody who came on his land! I told him I wasn't totally displeased to hear that!

So it is always a potential problem when you have trespassers. And it is MUCH worse when they are carrying loaded rifles. I've had to send a few "lost" hunters off my property but none of them has been crazy enough to challenge me. I HOPE it never comes to something like that!

Gregg

Vinita, OK

RavenVT100
November 22, 2004, 12:47 AM
Great, now there's all kinds of chatter on the news and in some circles I've observed about the evils of letting people own the "SKS assault rifle."

I just love it how these people will turn any violent loss of life into a tool to further their political agenda. Stay turned for more disrespectful misinformation and propaganda from groups who stand to profit from this latest tragedy.

SteelyDan
November 22, 2004, 12:53 AM
The incident occurred about 100 miles from Minneapolis (but in Wisconsin), and it got huge play on the local news (Channel 5) tonight--I mean, like almost half the broadcast. There were a couple of conflicting reports. The majority said that the lawful hunters asked the trespasser to leave (without any detail on the manner in which this request was made), and the trespasser refused and opened fire. One guy apparently called his buddies back at the deer camp on a walkie-talkie, and they came out and got shot, too. Another report suggested the trespasser left and then came back with the SKS, but that did not seem to be the majority view.

And yes, the SKS was identified as an "assault weapon" that is not banned under current laws, and it was later clarified that it is a semi-auto weapon that fires one round every time the trigger is pulled. The trespasser/shooter is a St. Paul resident who was described as cooperative in his jail cell in Wisconsin.

This does suck. What went wrong here, I don't get it.

El Rojo
November 22, 2004, 02:02 AM
I don't think semi-auto vs. bolt action has anything to do with it. Sounds to me like a tactics and determination issue. The SKS guy seemed to be ready to go the whole distance and the other guys were not. The hunters were probably all standing next to each other with their guns over their shoulders when the SKS guy decided they had to go. Then again, that SKS might have been able to do the trick in the thick woods where visibility was probably down to less than 50 yards or so. Who knows. I guess what we can learn from this is if you ever go out in groups and find tresspassers, spread out! Flank them and be ready.

Andrew Rothman
November 22, 2004, 02:05 AM
A long article from the Star Tribune, which can summon an awesome amount of reporting power when they want to.

The Channel 5 teaser called it "...an automatic weapon resembling this semiautomatic," and showed a picture of an SKS.

And for the record, the suspect is Hmong, not Vietnamese -- the Hmong fought on our side in Vietnam. Anyway, he's 36, so he is far too young for the kill-whitey theory.

http://www.startribune.com/stories/462/5097995.html

Wisconsin shootings kill 5

Terry Collins, Chuck Haga, Larry Oakes, Chao Xiong and Richard Meryhew, Star Tribune
November 22, 2004 HUNTERS1122
http://www.startribune.com/stonline/images/news23/1hunters1122.l.jpg
the suspect

At least five people were killed and three wounded in a multiple shooting in northwestern Wisconsin Sunday afternoon. After a confrontation over the use of a deer stand, a 36-year-old St. Paul man apparently chased some of the victims through a heavily wooded area, authorities said.

Chai Soua Vang, 36, was arrested early Sunday evening in Sawyer County, Wis., said Sawyer County Sheriff's Deputy Jake Hodgkinson. Vang lives on St. Paul's East Side, police spokesman Paul Schnell said.

Vang was being held in the Sawyer County Jail in Hayward.

Tim Zeigle, chief deputy for the Sawyer County Sheriff's Department, said Sunday night that four men and one woman were among the dead.

Zeigle said the bodies were found "a long way from each other," indicating the killer chased them down after the initial confrontation and as several hunters came to assist their colleagues.

Investigators found two bodies next to each other, with a third 50 yards away, the fourth 75 yards from the third and the final body 100 yards from the fourth, Zeigle said.

They were killed with an SKS assault-style rifle, he added.

"He was picking them off," Zeigle said, adding that some were shot more than once. "He was chasing after them and killing them."

Authorities were still working on the crime scene late Sunday night.

Two of the victims were identified by friends Sunday as Robert Crotteau, about 41, and his son, Joey, about 20.

"This is not supposed to happen to people you know," said Mark Miller, owner of Fat Man's, a Rice Lake tavern where Robert Crotteau often stopped by for lunch.

Miller also believed two others who were killed were a father and daughter.

Crotteau owned a concrete company in town, said longtime Rice Lake City Council Member Marv Thompson said.

"They're a good family," Thompson said. "They're decent people. Deer hunting is real big in their family and a lot of households around here."

Zeigle said that a man dressed in hunting clothes was occupying a tree stand on private property around noon Sunday. He did not have permission to hunt on the land and was asked by a group of deer hunters to leave.

After one man was shot, he used a walkie-talkie to contact others in his party nearby that he needed help. When members of his party came out, they also were shot, Zeigle said.

Roads near the scene were closed to all traffic, including ambulances, as authorities from sheriff's departments in Sawyer, Rusk and Barron counties were involved in the manhunt.

According to broadcast reports, the man then fled into the woods and came upon another hunter who was able to tell him how to get out.

When he got out, he was met by a Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources officer who contacted police.

Officers arrested Vang without incident. His rifle was empty.

Zeigle said authorities were notified of the shootings shortly after noon, when one of the members hunting party stopped at a gas station in the city of Birchwood while taking one of the victims to the hospital.

The caller said simply, "There were five people dead in the woods," Zeigle said.

Deputies were immediately dispatched to the scene and found the bodies in the brush. The injured were taking to hospitals. At that point, authorities started their search for Vang, taking to county roads and the air hoping to find him.

One of the hunters had given authorities Vang's "tag number," which identifies deer hunters when they get their licenses. The hunter had written the number down during the confrontation that sparked the shooting.

'Prayed for safe hunt'

Three wounded men were taken to Lakeview Medical Center in Rice Lake, Wis. One of the victims, Denny Drew, had surgery and was in serious condition, said Jennifer Greshowak, the hospital's director of community relations. Another, Lauren Hesebeck, also had surgery and he was in fair condition.

A third victim was flown to a trauma center in Marshfield, Wis., and is listed in critical condition.

Hesenbeck's wife, Theresa Hesenbeck, who also is Drew's sister, said Sunday night that she learned about the shootings shortly after leaving church, where she had "prayed for a safe hunt."

Drew was shot in the stomach. The bullet went in one side and out the other, family members said. They added that Lauren Hesenbeck was shot in the arm and the bullet exited through his back.

The shootings happened in Meteor Township in southwestern Sawyer County, between the cities of Birchwood and Exeland.

The Drew and Hesebeck family said in a statement Sunday that they "certainly appreciate the thoughts and prayer of this close-knit community and encourage you to think and pray for the other families involved."

Wisconsin's statewide deer gun hunting season started Saturday and lasts for nine days.

Miller said he used to play fast-pitch softball with Robert Crotteau and his brothers. Miller said he brought a car this spring from Denny Drew, "and Lauren Hesenbeck rode with me to put gas in it. It's a small town and everybody knows everybody.

"It's going to be strange working [today]. It's all that people will be talking about."

The arrested man, Vang, lives in an aging, two-story house on St. Paul's lower East Side.

He and his family apparently moved into the neighborhood earlier this year, said John Black, a lifelong resident of the neighborhood who lives across the street.

Black and his wife, Cheryl, said Sunday night that the family pretty much kept to themselves, rarely interacting with neighbors. They said they never spoke with the man, but described him as "real clean-cut" and "nicely dressed."

John Black said he believed there were several children living in the home, but added that he didn't know how many there were or what their relation to Vang might be.

"We never had any problems with them," Black, 56, said. "We never heard a peep out of those guys to be honest with you. We're floored. What would take a guy to that point?"

John Black said he was watching a football game sometime after 3:30 p.m. Sunday when he noticed some commotion outside and saw several unmarked police cars pull up in front of Vang's house.

"They wouldn't tell us anything," said Black, who eventually found out what was going on from a TV cameraman.

At one point, Black said, police led a woman from the house, shielding her from cameras by covering her face with a blanket.

The writers are at statenews@startribune.com.

The Associated Press contributed to this report.

psyopspec
November 22, 2004, 02:05 AM
Lotsa meth labs in the rural areas where I've been hunting lately. Sad consideration, but I always make sure to have extra ammo and a b.u.g. on me when I'm afield these days.

fistful
November 22, 2004, 02:29 AM
I don't want to defend Vang, but I want to understand why he might have done this. Perhaps he is under the impression that American hunters are knuckle-dragging bigots, and thought he was about to be lynched by a group of rednecks. Maybe he doesn't understand English very well, or couldn't hear what the hunters were telling him; due to windy conditions or distance. He may have seen a bunch of round eyes with guns, shouting at him, and panicked. Maybe someone unintentionally (and foolishly) pointed his gun at the other party, and drew fire.

If this is the result of a misunderstanding between rational people, rather than one nut on a rampage, then the incident is far more disturbing.

detonics
November 22, 2004, 02:35 AM
and the others were witnesses

CleverName
November 22, 2004, 03:38 AM
Chao Xiong sounds like a Chinese name to me. So unless Hmong gangs wanted to kill Triads or something, I'm tending to disbelieve the "hit" theory.

Ryder
November 22, 2004, 04:46 AM
The guy wasn't much of a hunter if at all. They caught him because he became lost in the woods after the shooting. That's pretty darn funny.

insurgent
November 22, 2004, 04:49 AM
According to the last article (55 minutes old), he was "sniping" the victims and he's from Minnesota: He says the suspect was "chasing after them and killing them." Some victims were shot more than once.

OpenRoad
November 22, 2004, 06:56 AM
This is nuts! :cuss:

It's the top story on CNN right now.

I sure hope not, but what'ya all wanna bet this gives the ATF the perfect excuse to pull the SKS off of the Curio & Relic list?

Waitone
November 22, 2004, 07:21 AM
Just saw an NBC report. No mention of what firearms were used. Just that they were used.

Unusual restraint. :eek:

RavenVT100
November 22, 2004, 07:47 AM
Wow. MSNBC actually got it right.

Zeigle said the suspect was “chasing after them and killing them,” with a SKS 7.62 caliber semiautomatic, a common hunting weapon. Wisconsin’s statewide deer gun hunting season started Saturday and lasts for nine days.

No mention of assault rifles or anything of the sort. ABC News pretty much ran the same line, about the SKS being commonly used to hunt. That's a good thing, given that many people do use it for hunting. I have several friends who hunt deer with it (although I've never used mine to do that).

Double Naught Spy
November 22, 2004, 07:50 AM
Alduro, how could so many get shot and not the shooter? Simple. He had the advantage.

Bigjake, domestic terrorist? Why does it need to be a terrorist for this to happen? If it was a terrorist, he would not have been in the tree stand, but someplace off from the tree stand where he could snipe the hunters without direct confrontation.

hillbilly
November 22, 2004, 08:08 AM
Neal Boortz has weighed in with some snarky comments (surprise, surprise) on his web site.

Below are his comments, and below that is my email to him, not that it'll ever get read on the air.

Neal's comments:

Hunters.? Gotta love 'em.? There's nothing quite like waking up on a beautiful fall morning in the middle of the forest, having a nice breakfast and a cup of joe, and then heading out into the woods to look for something to kill.? Hey, if you can't find any deer, how about some other hunters?? You know, if these guys were as tough as we want them to believe they are, they would enlist and go to Iraq.? There they would have something to hunt that actually deserves to die.





And my comments to Neal:


I'd say you just don't get it about hunters, Neal.

Hunting is not about "being tough."

Hunting is about being self-reliant.

By hunting deer, people participate in the food chain in a direct manner.

They exercise their own ability to feed themselves and their families in a fashion that many Americans have become too fat, stupid, lazy, and soft to do for themselves any more.

You are all the time slamming people who leech of the system, and who are welfare parasites.

Hunters are going one more step beyond not leeching off the system.

They are finding and ethically killing and processing their own meat.

They aren't paying somebody else to run a mechanized slaughter house and do all the dirty work for them.

Besides, a deer with all its "prey animal" senses of superior smell and hearing and ability to see the slightest movement stands a Hell of a lot better chance of getting away than some poor Holstein lined up in the chute waiting for the big knives.

This guy in Wisconsin isn't "a hunter." He's a psychopath.

And when is the last time in the last 20 years when such murders have happened during a deer season? I can't say I ever remember such a case. This is not "typical behavior" by hunters. This is the random act of a psychopath.

But I'd have to say you are making your off-the-cuff comments about "hunters" from a position of ignorance.

Waitone
November 22, 2004, 08:17 AM
. . . . . and as an added bonus at no charge, hunters drive one world blissninnies and animal rights nutso.

Nonetheless, the perp is dangerous and there is no excuse for his actions.

Selfdfenz
November 22, 2004, 08:18 AM
Could it be that the walkie-talkie call for assistance was just that, a call for help, with no information that the 2 hunter who confronted this man had met a crazy person?

Doesn't the fact the shooter was able to chase the rescue group down one by one and shoot them tend to indicate they did not have weapons? They came unarmed. Not too much of a stretch.

A very tragic situation and one that calls for our prayers for the families of those struggling to survive.

I expect another round of uninformed left wing media spin regarding "assault weapons". Could it be Bush will get to keep his word on signing a piece of legislation regarding "assault weapons"?

Depressing

S-

feedthehogs
November 22, 2004, 08:20 AM
Why is there such a propensity to come to a conclusion before all the facts are known?

There's enough conjecture and supposition with an underlying hint of bigotry to write a Tom Clancy novel.

Grab the rope Billy Bob, lets hang this varmint. :rolleyes:

Bubbles
November 22, 2004, 08:32 AM
A person hunting without permission on private land is not a hunter. He is a trespasser and a poacher.

Unfortunately for the lawful hunters, he's also a psychopath.

ScottsGT
November 22, 2004, 08:35 AM
They might not have know they were under fire. Think about it, if all 5 are scattered arouund the woods in stands and hear gunshots, they're just thinking someones just bagged a deer. And another, and another, and another, until too late. They just got bagged. This guy was chased off, left the property, and then came back with the SKS. So the hunting party became the hunted.

captain obvious
November 22, 2004, 08:39 AM
I heard this story coming back for thanksgiving yesterday - my first thought was is this a possible case of life imitating art, in this case, Enemies, Foreign and Domestic? One kind of wonders if this couldn't have been even slightly staged.

Otherwise, this is insane.

goalie
November 22, 2004, 09:13 AM
Considering the reputation of our local Hmong population in regards to obeying fishing laws, well, I cannot say that this is a terrible suprise to me. If that makes me a bigot, so be it.

Kaylee
November 22, 2004, 09:15 AM
never assign to conspiracy that which is equally well explained by just plain human fallibility. My guess is we're soon gonna either hear about a nearby methlab/potfield the dude was guarding, or Mr. SKS was otherwise rrmm.. "chemically impaired" at the time.

PaleRyder
November 22, 2004, 09:30 AM
And now he'll go to trial and they'll plead insanity, or rage, etc, and he'll go to prison at the tax payer's expense. I favor the death penalty at the scene of the crime.

Bubbles
November 22, 2004, 09:45 AM
No death penalty in WI, more's the pity...

DWS1117
November 22, 2004, 09:47 AM
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/2912960

Nov. 22, 2004, 7:41AM



Hunter kills 5, injures 3 in dispute over tree stand
Associated Press

BIRCHWOOD, Wis. - A deer hunter shot and killed five people and injured three others in northwestern Wisconsin following a dispute about a tree stand during the hunt's opening weekend, authorities said. ADVERTISEMENT


The 36-year-old alleged gunman, who lives in the Minneapolis area, was arrested Sunday afternoon, Sawyer County sheriff's officials said. Jake Hodgkinson, a deputy at the county jail, identified the suspect as Chai Vang but would give no additional details.

The incident began when two hunters were returning to their rural cabin on private land in Sawyer County when they saw the suspect in one of their hunting platforms in a tree, County Chief Deputy Tim Zeigle said. A confrontation and shooting followed.

It's not known who shot first, Zeigle said.

Both hunters were wounded and one of them radioed to the cabin a quarter mile away. Other hunters responded and were shot. About 20 shots were fired, but it's unclear who shot them, he said.

The dead included four males -- including a teenage boy -- and a woman, Zeigle said. A father and son were among them, he said. Some of the victims were shot more than once.

All five, from the Rice Lake area, were dead when officers arrived to the area in southwestern Sawyer County, he said. Authorities found two bodies near each other and the others were scattered over 100 yards.

"It's absolutely nuts. Why? Over sitting in a tree stand?" asked Zeigle.

Zeigle said the suspect was "chasing after them and killing them," with a SKS 7.62 caliber semiautomatic, a common hunting weapon. Wisconsin's statewide deer gun hunting season started Saturday and lasts for nine days.

Two young people who stayed in the cabin emerged safely after the shootings.

The suspect, who did not have a compass, got lost in the woods and two hunters, not knowing about the shootings, helped him find his way out, Zeigle said. When he emerged, a Department of Natural Resources officer recognized the deer license on his back, given to police by a victim, Zeigle said.

The man was out of bullets and was arrested, Zeigle said.

One of the injured hunters was in critical condition at St. Joseph's Hospital. Another was listed in serious condition and the third was in fair condition, both at Lakeview Medical Center.

Hunter Bill Wagner, 72, of Oshkosh, was about two miles away near Deer Lake with a party of about 20 other hunters. After they got word of the shooting, he and others went to round up the rest of the party. He said they heard sirens, planes and helicopters and noticed the surrounding roads blocked off.

"When you're hunting you don't expect somebody to try to shoot you and murder you," he said. "You have no idea who is coming up to you."

It took about three hours to round up the other hunters, who were up to four miles apart, Wagner said. "We're all old, dyed-in-wool hunters," he said. "We wouldn't go home because of this but we will keep it in our minds. We're not forgetting it."


with a SKS 7.62 caliber semiautomatic, a common hunting weapon

I am shocked. They didn't say it is an assault weapon.

PaleRyder
November 22, 2004, 09:48 AM
Geez. I'm glad I don't live there. Then again, the death penalty is pretty much lip service these days anyway. Prisoners just sit on death row for years.

Werewolf
November 22, 2004, 09:56 AM
Hmmm...
Wonder where the reporter picked that bit of info about the SKS up?

By stretching the ole imagination a bit I could see the SKS being a common deer rifle but it'd be a long, long stretch. I'm not saying it wouldn't work because it most definitely would - especially in brush country or the woods. I just don't believe it'd be all that common among your average legal deer hunter. Now your deer poaching or subsistence hunter on the other hand...

The shooter's name sounded Vietnamese to me - wonder if he's a refugee who just flashed back and lost it when confronted by two white guys with guns? Something else must have happened that isn't yet known. Wiping out 5 people based on the facts as presented just doesn't make much sense to me.

cazio
November 22, 2004, 10:02 AM
I can't say I'm surprised they mentioned it was a semi-automatic weapon. Anything to fuel the assualt ban fire. I am always leary when I go to the range alone, I can imagine how people will be constantly worried now and looking over their shoulders at every noise.

Cazio

benEzra
November 22, 2004, 10:07 AM
By stretching the ole imagination a bit I could see the SKS being a common deer rifle but it'd be a long, long stretch. I'm not saying it wouldn't work because it most definitely would - especially in brush country or the woods. I just don't believe it'd be all that common among your average legal deer hunter. Now your deer poaching or subsistence hunter on the other hand...
Since the SKS is probably THE most common centerfire rifle in the U.S., with more than seven million in the hands of gun owners, I would imagine it's actually fairly common in states that allow hunting with rifles.

The Kansas City Star did call the gun a "high-powered SKS assault rifle", which is pretty much backwards. (Quick--name five common deer rounds LESS powerful than the 7.62x39...) And IIRC, it's not an "assault weapon" by ANY state's definition.

mpthole
November 22, 2004, 10:09 AM
Scary stuff. I was up near that area for the opener, hunting on National Forest land. There is so much public land near there I wonder why the perp picked the location he did.

Bubbles
November 22, 2004, 10:12 AM
The shooter's name sounded Vietnamese to me - wonder if he's a refugee who just flashed back and lost it when confronted by two white guys with guns?

At only 36 years old? Not too likely - he'd have been born in 1968.

Other articles have said that this shooter is Hmong Vietnamese. The Hmong aren't exactly strong followers of hunting ethics and following fish/game laws.

Kaylee
November 22, 2004, 10:22 AM
I'm not surprised to hear it called a common hunting weapon either.. between how cheap the rifle is and how cheap the ammo is, it's seeming to overtake the ol' .30-30 as the ubiquitous "bubba gun" in a lot of areas ain't it?

PaleRyder
November 22, 2004, 10:30 AM
I work with a guy who is Hmong. Hmong are from Laos, not Vietnam. And most of them are pretty close knit. My co-worker returns from vacation next week. I'm pretty sure he'll at least know someone who knows that guy's family.

joebogey
November 22, 2004, 10:35 AM
[I'm not surprised to hear it called a common hunting weapon either.. between how cheap the rifle is and how cheap the ammo is, it's seeming to overtake the ol' .30-30 as the ubiquitous "bubba gun" in a lot of areas ain't it?]

Where does that leave me? I've got a SKS and a 30/30. Not to mention a NEF 308. LOL :D

ralphie98
November 22, 2004, 10:57 AM
They were discussing this on the local top 40 radio station this morning, and some dude called up to explain to the DJs what the gun is. He kept referring to it as "a tactical assault rifle" and mentioning the grenade launching capability and making it sound evil. Worst part of it was that this guy owned one himself... a fellow gun owner helping out the gun grabber's cause. I won't be surprised to see people calling for the ban of semi auto rifles for hunting.

How many people will be screaming for a new AWB using this incident as ammunition. I think it's time I go buy a yugo SKS while I can.

Selfdfenz
November 22, 2004, 11:00 AM
Do you think this could be a case of this dude being clueless as to what was public and what was private land.
Let's say that is the case and he spent all day Sat being run off of other private land. By Sunday he was still clueless and these poor guys ran into a fellow that was off his nut.
I wonder if the land was posted?
There is no excuse for this. Does Wisconsin require a hunter safety course to get a HL?

S-

molonlabe
November 22, 2004, 11:16 AM
Does Wisconsin require a hunter safety course to get a Hl?

Yes.
My thoughts take me to rules of a gunfight.
Bring a gun.
Bring several people with a gun.
Bring a long gun.


And one that is not written” If going to a gunfight lose the international orange" as it makes you a sitting duck.

I’m not sure if the guy that called with the 2 way radio said he was shot, if he thought it was an accident or if he was under fire. There isn't enough information at this time.
You can bet the antigunners are going to grab on to this one.
__________________

Bartholomew Roberts
November 22, 2004, 11:50 AM
Good example of mindset I guess. I don't see how the other hunters responding to this managed to get shot as well. They knew the guy was shooting people. They knew his physical location. If he was still occupying the stand, they knew his exact location. They had to be armed with rifles that were effective for deer.

I guess I just don't understand how the shooter in this case didn't wind up being shot unless these guys were going in with the mindset that they wouldn't need to do any shooting.

12 Volt Man
November 22, 2004, 11:50 AM
Wow, I was off playing all weekend and I just heard about this on the radio on the way in to work. I knew right away when they said the shooter’s name that he was Hmong. The Hmong people are a hill tribe from Laos. Originally from Southern China, they moved in to Laos hundreds of years ago. The French and the US utilized their fearlessness and Mountain Skills in the fight against Communism leading up to and through the Vietnam War. There was a book I read some time ago called “Tragic Mountains” that told this story. Key things I remember were, the French soldiers were cutting a trail back and forth across a mountain while trying to get over it. The barefoot Hmong fighters took off straight up the mountain. When asked why go straight up the mountain when it is so hard, they just replied, “Isn’t that where we are going”. They fought with tenacity and are great warriors. The Hmong, as with most other Hill Tribes from Laos and Thailand are Animistic. This means that they worship their dead ancestors. When the communist’s won, most of those who fought against them had to escape to Thailand and live in camps or be killed by the communists. Many of them were able to come to the U.S. for asylum. There are still some living in camps trying to get here.

I know all this from my time spent as a Laotian Speaking Mormon missionary in California. I learned to speak Laotian primarily. I also learned quite a few words in several Hill Tribe Languages including Hmong, Mien, Khmu, and Musser. Hill Tribe people are fascinating. They are very tight knit communities. Some, even after being here almost 20 years, do not speak English. They are brought into the US and spread across varying parts of the country, then they find out where their relatives are, and move there. The sad part is that most of the communities they end up in are the ones which happen to have the best welfare or free money/housing programs. Then they stay in their tight communities and speak their language all day so they never fully adapt to the generally accepted “U.S. lifestyle” nor do they learn English well. I believe this will go on till the older generation dies out.

These are some of the factors which could have led to this guy freaking out. None of which make it excusable or justify it. I just thought I would put down what I know. There is a chance that this guy has seen and done things that most of us will never do. 20 to 25 years ago he and his family were squatting barefoot around a fire, farming and hunting for food, and trying not to do things that would piss off their dead ancestors. They try hard to keep their dead ancestors happy. I knew a guy from a different hill tribe who told the story of having to kill his twin daughters that were born when he was still in the mountains of Laos. When twins are born, they believed that one was evil and there was no way to know which one, so their tradition was to kill both babies and bury one on each side of the path leading up to their house.

Another thing that may be an issue is inbreeding. It sounds funny to say that, buy arranged marriages to first cousins are not uncommon with Hill Tribe people.

Another interesting note. The first AK-47 I ever saw was in the home of a Hmong guy. He told me he got it because of all the gunfire in his neighborhood. Believe me, he needed it. That neighborhood was North Richmond California. In the early 90’s when I was there, it was the murder capital, per-capita in the nation. Major Gang war there. I was visiting some people there on New Years eve. When midnight hit. It sounded like a war zone. Every other house had some guy in his front yard firing a fully automatic weapon into the sky. It was a wild time.

I am amazed that none of these folks were able to defend themselves. I wonder how close they were to each other. This is just plain sad. Can’t be good for our cause.

ReadyontheRight
November 22, 2004, 12:30 PM
Simply unbelievable. This murderer needs to be punished.

mpthole
November 22, 2004, 12:39 PM
Quote:
Does Wisconsin require a hunter safety course to get a Hl?



Yes.

Wrong. They are only required (this year) if you were born after 1973. This guy was 36 and therefore was not required to have a hunter safety course before purchasing a hunting license. At least that is the way it works for residents, so I'm assuming its the same for non-residents, which this guy was.

effengee
November 22, 2004, 12:45 PM
News 10 from Albany N.Y. reports at 12:00

According to news 10, the accused had a dispute with the hunters over being allowed use of their stand ON THEIR PRIVATE PROPERTY, and then left, and RETURNED with the weapon...
They didn't even state what type of rifle was used. I liked that...
Unbiased reporting of the facts without sensationalism...
News 10 is generally pretty good about that...

The point is, he left and returned armed and with full intent to do harm.
That's Murder 1. No excuses. I don't care what nationality you are...
Somehow I wish some of those hunters could have popped this little puke, but I guess it is a shining example of what one determined person and a loaded firearm are capable of, even against the worst odds...
Also proves the old adage:
One Spartan is worth 1000 average warriors...

I won't say what I would have done differently, because it may have been me that was shot first seeing as to how I would have had the most to say to some guy who refused to take a polite "no" for an answer, but it suffices that around me and my friends, this guy wouldn't have gotten off a second shot much less murdering 5 and wounding 3.
We all carry holstered handguns in the woods and at camp locked and loaded at ALL times.
You never know when or where a rabid vermin might jump up at you.
Mark my words, none of of us would run, to be gunned down like game...

The anti gun stations are making a big deal out of the fact that he used an SKS calling it an "assault weapon" that fires the same ammo as the AK-47...
Don't you just love double-talk?

jim

Atticus
November 22, 2004, 12:48 PM
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-11-22-hunters-killed_x.htm

"About 20 shots were fired but it was unclear if any of the hunters had fired at the suspect or who might have shot first, Zeigle said. There was just one gun among the eight people killed or wounded, he said."

That's strange.

JustsayMo
November 22, 2004, 01:05 PM
It is tragic and unfortunately it's probably going to get worse.

I can see "self defense" and racial strategies being used to justify his actions. Politically this will go well beyond the killing of five people is my guess. I can see it now,

"They called me *insert pajorative racial slur here* and said they'd shoot me if I didn't leave... I was scared, they pointed their guns at me so I shot em. When I saw more coming I shot them too...."

There might even be truth to that.

I believe most of the time (99.99999%) guns keep people civil but when things get ugly the potential for a disproportionate reaction or response is there. Sadly this incident will overshadow the millions of other positive incidents where hunters armed with the tool of their choice went out safely and had a great time.

The whole thing bums me out.

2nd Amendment
November 22, 2004, 01:15 PM
The presence of one firearm among 8 victims pretty much puts paid to that "fear" defense. It might have got him some mileage with the first two shootings, assuming they had the gun, but with the last six? No...

Frankly I am thinking there won't be a lot of fallout from this politically. A racial minority, an immigrant to boot, shoots a bunch of unarmed members of a non-politically correct fraternity. The only thing the extremists have to play on is the SKS itself, which is not a great prop for them what with its wood stock and rather conventional lines. Too much of a balancing act for the fear-mongers to use this without goring some of their own oxen.

Waitone
November 22, 2004, 01:32 PM
Why was he sitting in a deer stand UNARMED?

Was he a lookout for something?

Odd.

Bigfoot
November 22, 2004, 01:54 PM
Too late in the year for a marajuana plot. And I just don't see Hmong (barely out of the caves)manufacturing meth.

I'm betting he was in the stand with that SKS, and only pretended to leave in order to stalk the hunters.

hillbilly
November 22, 2004, 02:22 PM
This is horrible and awful, and a great loss for all the families involved.

But I can't help but wonder something over and over.

Why on earth would you go out and confront an armed man and bring only one gun along amongst all 8 of you?

Especially when you had had a run-in with him just a little bit earlier. He was obviously getting pushy at that point.

Why go out and ask him to leave your deer stand and bring only one gun with 8 people?

During deer season, I make sure to tote a piece (M1 Carbine, usually) along with me every time I go out on my rural, wooded 30 acres just in case I come across armed trespassers.

If I'm going to come across Billy Bob and Otis armed with .30-30s or .30-06s, I'm sure going to have some sort of firearm on me, too. Of course, I will be polite and pleasant and non-aggressive in my tone of voice, but I will be armed in that situation at all times.

But this guy wasn't making a mistake about property lines, because they had confronted him once before earlier in the day. Why go out with only one gun amongst 8 people?

hillbilly

rick_reno
November 22, 2004, 02:24 PM
I'm sure his defense will be he climbed up that tree and the lack of oxygen impaired his judgement.

Jeff White
November 22, 2004, 03:04 PM
Well it had to happen...CBS Radio News just had someone on talking about how the SKS that was used may have been covered by the AWB, but it was of no help since it had been repealed :banghead:

Jeff

Robb
November 22, 2004, 03:25 PM
How could you shoot so many people with High Powered Rifles and not get hit?

Have you ever had to shoot someone who's actively shooting back at you? It's an entirely different thing than taking your time, lining up your shot, and taking out a deer. Most likely these guys had never had anything worse than a fist come their way and were unprepared for a whacko with a semi automatic. They weren't prepared, and that's sad. They didn't deserve to be murdered, and that's the saddest part. I hope the guy gets the death penalty.

Edit: No death penalty in Wi... grrr.... Damn liberals!

Bigfoot
November 22, 2004, 03:32 PM
Plus the hunters had blase orange and the murderer was stalking in full camo.

spacemanspiff
November 22, 2004, 03:35 PM
HANK: So, are you Chinese or Japanese?
KAHN: I live in California last twenty years, but first come from Laos.
HANK: Huh?
KAHN: Laos. We Laotian.
BILL: The ocean? What ocean?
KAHN: We are Laotian. From Laos, stupid! It's a landlocked country in Southeast Asia. It's between Vietnam and Thailand, okay? Population 4.7 million.
HANK: So, are you Chinese or Japanese?

Otherguy Overby
November 22, 2004, 03:37 PM
So, with this recent incident in mind, should I just shoot someone on my 150 acres who appears to be hunting?

BTW, my normal carry for confronting someone on my property is a 20+ round 1911 race gun and either a shotgun or a D-model SKS (takes ak mags).

Something that's repeatedly occured to me throughout this thread is that these "hunters" were probably not real gun people. Who else would go out unarmed to aid someone who'd radio'd back he'd been shot?

Should a post modern hunter carry some FMJ rounds to shoot through a tree and take out a miscreant?

2nd Amendment
November 22, 2004, 04:25 PM
There have been no trespassers this year on my hunting land. I've gone out on the days I wasn't hunting just to check...but I'm not sure I will tonite. You can almost bet that somewhere in the US is some loon thinking "HEY! Now that sounds like a kewl idea!" Even when I have confronted people before, even been argued with and beaded up on I never quite expected things to go totally south. But now, just watch. This'll happen again before the year is out... Sux to have to actually think about the consequences of patrolling your own land.

BTW, it's been reported this loser was arrested around last Christmas for threatening his wife and/or kids with a handgun. Don't know the accuracy on that.

Andrew Rothman
November 22, 2004, 04:43 PM
According to the Star Tribune (http://www.startribune.com/stories/462/5099065.html), [Sawyer County Sheriff Jim] Meier said Vang was a naturalized American citizen originally from Laos and had military experience. He speaks English well, Meier said.

walking arsenal
November 22, 2004, 05:00 PM
they guy is a Mong named chai vang.

reportedly, he shot 8 people (wounded 3 killed 5)

from what our tv station reported he used an SKS.

i guess he shot until he ran out of ammo then took off.

I went to bat for us on this one and spent an hour arguing with our morning news anchor about the assault rifle bit. :rolleyes:

If you want to help set our news room strait go to the web site at www.wdio.com
e-mail our news staff (news@wdio.com) and set them right on the assault rifle sniping bit.

they always react to e-mails. :)

walking arsenal
November 22, 2004, 05:09 PM
Not a bad idea to have a sidearm even when hunting. In MN you don't even need a carry permit if you are out hunting.

I ended up needing mine this year, to put down a deer. AFTER my friend dropped it on the run with his 1911...(thanks buddy)
__________________

No prob, Anytime.

And i'd like to add, weve had to chase plenty of crazy people off our land as well, a gun helped in a few of the cases.

i started carrying my sidearm, just for that reason, that and putting down wounded deer.

campergeek
November 22, 2004, 05:17 PM
Reuters report (http://olympics.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=6888986)

I love this part: :scrutiny:

The St. Paul Pioneer Press reported on Monday that Hmong hunters have complained about being harassed by other hunters in the past, and Minnesota has assigned Hmong officers to ease the situation. There may be a culture gap between other hunters and the Hmong, who were accustomed in Laos to hunt wherever they wanted instead of seeking permission to go on private property, the newspaper said.

You see, it's not really murder so much as just a misunderstanding due to the culture gap. In actuality, the shooter is the victim! :barf:

ObeOne
November 22, 2004, 05:17 PM
Obviously we don't know all of the facts, but there is defiantly something fishy going on here.
If the politicos will end up using it, not sure. While the race card should not be used, it will probably play a big part on how much this is pushed.
Defiantly going to be more careful the next time I go hunting.
Obe One

Russ
November 22, 2004, 05:22 PM
What a frigging nut case. Can you say "DEATH PENALTY". I rarely hunt but this is downright freaky. They should remove this person from the gene pool ASAP.

Grey54956
November 22, 2004, 05:32 PM
The Hmong have a pretty bad reputation in Wisconsin in regards to hunting and fishing. I have heard some pretty interesting stories from a number of credible sportsmen. Some revolve around Hmong hunters laying claim to animals that they did not shoot. Some are about fishing limits.

Culture gap, my foot. The law of the land is meant to be obeyed. Period.

Preacherman
November 22, 2004, 05:41 PM
As JustSayMo pointed out, there are possible (probable?) depths to this case that will only be known in court... if they're allowed to come out. If the victims used any sort of racial epithet (e.g. "gook") to the shooter, and/or were in any way aggressive or threatening in their approach, look for a self-defence plea from the shooter.

So why did he shoot more than the one or two who initially confronted him? "Well, all of them suddenly rushed at me on their ATV's - I thought they were going to continue the attack!"

This one's likely to get very interesting...

detonics
November 22, 2004, 05:45 PM
http://www.wausaudailyherald.com/wdhlocal/281966074139288.shtml
if i ever get a chance to hunt in laos i dont want to go
some one commented on hmong fishing
i live here in wisconsin and what he said was true for the hmong i have seen fishing
it seems they do not take kindly to size limits or any other DNR imposed regulations. i ve seen 2 5 gallon buckets full of undersize northern and bass
if they had boats im sure they would decimate the walleyes too

Little Loudmouth
November 22, 2004, 05:46 PM
I heard that he got down, walked about 40 yards away, fiddled with his rifle, turned around and started shooting.

Our local news called the crazy wacko's gun an SKS assault rifle.... :banghead: :fire: :banghead:

Cosmoline
November 22, 2004, 06:08 PM
Gotta watch for banditos. They are most certainly out there.

walking arsenal
November 22, 2004, 06:14 PM
In a town in northen MN were my grandparents live there is a textile factory that hired a shipload of hmongs.

the locals are less than happy about it.

shortly after they moved into the town pets started disapearing, its a small town so everyones dogs just go loose.

coincidence?

theres more.

from what ive heard they have a blatent disregard for game laws, they hunt everything year round anywhere no matter whose land it is. they fish out the lakes as well.

to top it off Mrs. WA has told me that they have a problem in southern MN with the painted turtles disapearing because the hmongs eat them all.

do they do this cause it's cheaper than buying groceries?

Atticus
November 22, 2004, 06:26 PM
"do they do this cause it's cheaper than buying groceries?"

Kroger was running low on painted turtle and dog the last time I was there. :neener:

How do the the Hmong deal with murderers?
His death should reflect social sensitivity.

birdv
November 22, 2004, 06:52 PM
I am trying to reframe this..(it is not easy, but)

If you were on your property and I guy with a gun is yelling at you about his right to hunt where the F&%$ he pleases and then points his gun in a threating manner. :fire:

That is the only thing I can think of :uhoh:

We need more facts, because this guy might be crazy or he might just be a better shot.

"how can you shoot women and children... "
-FMJ :neener:

Guy B. Meredith
November 22, 2004, 06:57 PM
I am not a hunter. Is there not a round limit for hunting rifles as well as shotguns? The report says the shooter may have had a 20 magazine.

milcaztra
November 22, 2004, 06:57 PM
Just takes one nut, drunk, or lost temper to inspire anti-gun legislation.

He walked away 40 yards and fiddled with his rifle, removing his scope, before he turned around to engage. I wonder what was said during the preceding argument. Regardless of whatever threats or racial slurs were used, the guy's actions plainly show premeditation. What a waste. :(

I was thinking about going hunting next month -- maybe not.

Andrew Rothman
November 22, 2004, 07:36 PM
Please, folks, let's try to keep to the high road here on the High Road.

Let's not start in on the old "they eat our puppies" crap, please.

The word is "Hmong" -- pronounced "mung." The word is both a noun, indicating the group, and an adjective to describe individuals in that group, so:

"Cha Yang is Hmong. He is a member of the Hmong community. Hmong funeral rites last for weeks."

The reports of Hmong hunters and anglers disregarding bag limits is greatly exaggerated, even according to the Wisconsin DNR:

http://www.wnrmag.com/supps/1999/oct99/caught.htm
Mezei and Kalmerton note that at least 50 percent of complaints about alleged violations involving Hmong are unfounded. Kalmerton remembers one complaint accusing Hmong hunters of sneaking out an untagged buck during the gun season. The hunters had covered the animal’s head with a pillowcase, which the witness believed was done to mask the lack of a tag. Kalmerton found the group, found the buck properly tagged and learned that in their homeland, Hmong often traveled far to hunt. It was their custom to cover the eyes of the dead animal so it wouldn’t know it was being removed from its home area. “It was out of respect,” says Kalmerton.

"There seems to be a perception that Hmong people violate conservation laws at every opportunity," says Mezei. “That’s just not the case. We’ve spent a lot of time working to change the Hmong view of wildlife as an unregulated food source and feel we’re definitely making headway.”

Also, please remember that this is ONE GUY. He no more represents Hmong immigrants than he does gun owners.

dance varmint
November 22, 2004, 07:41 PM
Just one thought for those elected officials who scurrilously defeated CCW in WI last year (Sherman and Doyle, wasn't it?) Good call, dudes, you really did us a solid.

DRZinn
November 22, 2004, 08:02 PM
Politically, there is one bright side: He's not white.

They can't play the race card, or the ignorant redneck card.

carp killer
November 22, 2004, 08:17 PM
Now the media is going to vilify the SKS. I guess it is the end of the SKS. :eek:

2nd Amendment
November 22, 2004, 08:24 PM
Well, I don't know but it seems we may b placing a lot more social/political importance on this than anyone else is. I've watched it on other forums and, really, the story hasn't drawn a lot of interest. It didn't make the evening radio news except as a 10 second blurb. *shrug* Like I said a page or two ago, it's just not going to be an easy story to use. Minority immigrant, plain looking rifle, non-PC victims... I'm sure they'll get *some* mileage from this but I'm beginning to believe it really won't be much.

SPFDRum
November 22, 2004, 08:35 PM
If you have never had the displeasure of hunting any public hunting ground with-in a 100 mile radius of the twin cities, consider yourself lucky. Deer hunting in Carlos Avery is just plain suicide. They have no qualms in shooting in your direction to get you to move if their group wants to hunt or drive the area. The problem is the group can be in excess of 30 people. the land owners around the park have their hands full keeping the hmong off private property. Lots of the "no speak english" when caught.
PS, the AM radio news is reporting that most of the individuals where shot in the back while trying to escape.

mpthole
November 22, 2004, 08:48 PM
Guy B Meredith:
Is there not a round limit for hunting rifles as well as shotguns? The report says the shooter may have had a 20 magazine.No, there isn't. I checked this before I went hunting this year because I planned (and did) use my AR-10 chambered in .308. When I hunted in MN with it a couple of years ago I picked up a 5-round mag for. Its nice to have a spare though, so I always have an additional 10-round mag loaded with 5 or 6 with me. That doesn't mean I didn't have a couple 20-rounders back at the truck loaded up with FMJ.

Selfdfenz
November 22, 2004, 08:55 PM
I can say I have learned tolerance here on THR if not much else.

Let's all get off the Hmong, mong, hung whatevers guy's back. We will know more facts in the fullness of time.

Remember what I'm sure you have all heard here many times, until this unfortunate clash of cultures took place and he started shooting people, he was very likely doing a job no American would take!

Gotta be!

S-

litman252
November 22, 2004, 08:56 PM
Couple of things on the side arm deal:
Must be .22 caliber centerfire or bigger.
Must be 5.5" muzle to firing pin with the action closed.
It is illegal to hunt with a concealed weapon, per last year when the law was pending.

About the smallest that makes it is a 4 5/8" ( + cyl.) blackhawk or a a long slide 1911.

It is kinda a pain to load up 2 guns each time you get in and out of your truck, I don't hunt chunks of land much bigger than 100 acres very much. Lot of drive time inbetween drives.

Bottom line, very tragic indeed. Little prayer for familly's involved.
Someone lost a husband and son, Other fathers possibly with a Woman dead also. Puts in all in perspective.....................

sturmruger
November 22, 2004, 08:58 PM
I just got back from a week long vacation, and was blown away to hear about this crazy guy. I skipped the deer hunting opener for the first time in many years. I hunt about 40 miles from where these poor people got shot. I don't have anything to say right now that would be "The High Road" so I am just going to shut up.

walking arsenal
November 22, 2004, 09:21 PM
I get a kick out of the guys who are so rattled by this that they refuse to go hunting.

so what?

What do they think? that theres a whole army of these guys out there taking over deer stands?

big deal, bring a bigger gun and if you find some nut in your stand keep your gun pointed casually in the guys direction, till he gets down and leaves, better yet bring a cell and call the cops to come get him out. A few of those "theres a guy in my stand and he wont leave" calls and somthing will happen.

Borachon
November 22, 2004, 09:47 PM
Last night, before the news broke that he had military experience, I was posting that his actions seemed very "Rambo-ish" in nature. Now it's being reported that he was in the US Army. I'm going to pat myself on the back for being able to read a situation.

He may TRY to claim racism as a self defense motive...but it's going to be hard to get apologetic testimony from all those dead witnesses he left in the woods. The lack of guns on the part of the other hunters does not bode well for Mr. Vang self defense argument, either.

Being led back to the spot and executed by the family members of the people killed was suggested somewhere else. Sounds good to me.

Andrew Rothman
November 22, 2004, 11:12 PM
Latest tidbit from the Star Tribune:

http://www.startribune.com/stories/462/5100076.html

SKS isn't classified as an assault rifle
Dennis Anderson, Star Tribune
November 23, 2004

John Monson, owner of Bill's Gun Shop and Range in Robbinsdale, regularly stocks "two or three" SKS semiautomatic rifles of the kind authorities said Chai Soua Vang of St. Paul used to kill six people and wound two others.

The weapon is often misrepresented as an "assault" rifle, Monson said, but the popular "sporterized," or hunting, version sold by Monson and used by some deer hunters was not covered by the federal assault weapons ban that recently expired.

Ya gotta love John. He is young, clean-cut, soft-spoken and eminently reasonable. He is the perfect spokesman for gun guys in the Twin Cities, and EVERY news outlet goes to him EVERY time guns are in the news.

The trigger of the semiautomatic SKS must be pulled each time to fire a round.

Hunting versions of the SKS can be purchased legally at gun shops.

The SKS is relatively cheap, retailing at Bill's Gun Shop and Range for $189, compared to $1,000 or more for more commonly used deer-hunting rifles. Its 7.62-by-39-millimeter ammunition is also cheap: A box of 40 rounds at Bill's costs $7.99.

So it would be, what, $5 anywhere else? :)

"The SKS is popular because it has low recoil, it's accurate and its ballistics are similar to popular .30-caliber loads," Monson said. The gun's stock is also short, making it popular with smaller shooters, he said.

The SKS version sold by Bill's and other gun shops is often 10 or more years old.

Though law enforcement authorities speculated at a press conference Monday in Rice Lake, Wis., that Vang's SKS held as many as 20 rounds, the gun typically holds 10 rounds and loads from the top, Monson said. However, aftermarket magazines that hold 20 rounds or more are available.

In 1989, President George H.W. Bush, in a presidential order, banned the import of SKS rifles from China following a mass shooting with an assault rifle in Stockton, Calif. Since then, SKS rifles manufactured in Russia and Yugoslovia have been imported into the United States.

The Wisconsin shootings created political ripples Monday in Washington, D.C., where the Violence Policy Center, a national handgun-control group, called for President Bush to use his executive authority to ban all foreign-made assault rifles. There's a shocker.

Washington Bureau Correspondent Kevin Diaz contributed to this report. Dennis Anderson is at danderson@startribune.com.

mfree
November 22, 2004, 11:16 PM
Just heard the local NBC TV affiliate's version... and no mention of firearms type, actually, for the info given he could have shot them with a pistol.

Good on them. Doesn't matter what kind of gun it was...

El Rojo
November 23, 2004, 12:16 AM
What is funny is that I got home and read the foxnews report on this and then came here. From page 3 on there is some pretty wild speculation and rumors floating around and it just made me laugh.

It appears there was only 1 gun amongst the hunters. I ran into a marijuana farm back in 2000 on some public land and since then, I don't plan on hunting on public land without at least a handgun and several magazines if not my M1A and all of my 20 round magazines as back up. If I am hunting with buddies, I think it would be a good idea to make sure they are all armed as well.

Harry Tuttle
November 23, 2004, 12:27 AM
here comes the VPC:
http://www.jointogether.org/gv/news/alerts/reader/0,2061,575245,00.html

Wisconsin Hunter Murders Show Need for Effective Assault Weapons Ban
11/22/2004

Press Release
Violence Policy Center
1140 19th Street, NW
Washington, DC 20036
www.vpc.org

Contact:
Marty Langley
Phone: 202-822-8200 ext. 109

Armed Hunters No Match for SKS Assault Rifle

President Has Power to Fully Ban Import of All Foreign-Made Assault Rifles Such As SKSs and Ak-47s

Washington, DC - SKS assault rifles like the one reported to have been used to murder five hunters and wound three others in Wisconsin over the weekend are a primary threat to police, the Violence Policy Center (VPC) reported today. So far in 2004, at least six law enforcement officers have been slain by SKSs. In the wake of the shooting, the VPC called on President George W. Bush today to use the Administration's executive authority over firearm imports to fully ban the import of all foreign-made assault rifles. Such an action would not require Congressional approval. The Bush Administration has specifically authorized the importation of SKS assault rifles from both Yugoslavia and Albania.

"Armed hunters were no match for one person firing an SKS assault rifle," said Kristen Rand, VPC legislative director. "This sad incident illustrates why the SKS is also a leading cop-killing rifle in America today."

Rand pointed out that the SKS assault rifle was not covered by the recently expired 1994 federal assault weapons ban. The VPC criticized the 1994 law as inadequate and favors enactment of a tougher version of the law that would ban the SKS and many other assault weapons that easily slipped through the old law's loopholes.

"Even though the 1994 law was easily circumvented by the gun industry, Congress has failed to move on a strong replacement law. President Bush could, with the stroke of a pen, tighten the import ban and stop the import of all foreign-made assault rifles," Rand said.

She noted that both the President's father, former-President George H.W. Bush, and former-President William J. Clinton stopped the import of hundreds of thousands of assault weapons by using their executive authority under firearms import and trade laws. Under the current Bush Administration, specific foreign-made assault rifles, including some SKSs, have returned to the marketplace.

For more information on the SKS assault rifle and the use of it and other assault weapons against law enforcement personnel, please visit www.vpc.org.

>>>>>>>>>

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=109&STORY=/www/story/11-22-2004/0002496552&EDATE=

Wisconsin Advocates Call on State Lawmakers to Pass Comprehensive Statewide
Assault Weapons Ban

MILWAUKEE, Nov. 22 /PRNewswire/ -- The Wisconsin Anti-Violence Effort
extends their deepest sympathy to the families and victims of the horrifying
and deadly shooting in Sawyer County, where a man used an SKS semi-automatic
assault rifle to gun down five hunters and wound three others. This tragedy
demonstrates the urgent need for an effective federal ban on military style
assault weapons. But since President Bush and Congress allowed the federal
assault weapons ban to expire in September of this year and seem disinterested
in passing a new law, Wisconsin lawmakers should, in the meantime, pass a
comprehensive statewide assault weapons ban. Reports suggested that the
shooting occurred after an argument escalated when hunters found 36-year-old
Chai Soua Vang using a tree stand belonging to someone else.
SKS military style, semi-automatic assault rifles, like the one used in
yesterday's tragic shooting, are the most common assault rifles used to kill
law enforcement offices in the United States, according to the Violence Policy
Center, a Washington, D.C. based think tank. In 2004, six law enforcement
officers in the United States have been gunned down by shooters using SKS
assault rifles.
"Over the years, we have seen that these military-style, semi-automatic
assault rifles are the guns of choice for cop-killers and mass murderers,"
said Jeri Bonavia, Executive Director of the Wisconsin Anti-Violence Effort.
"There is no good reason for hunting with a spray-fire gun, capable of 'hosing
down' a target area. Military-style guns, such as the SKS, do not belong on
our streets or in our fields and woods."
The Bush Administration has specifically authorized the importation of
some SKS assault rifles. The Bush Administration's regulatory power over
firearm imports means the President has the power and should ban the import of
all foreign-made assault rifles. Such an action would not require
Congressional approval. President Bush's predecessors, former-President
George H. W. Bush and former-President William J. Clinton, stopped the import
of hundreds of thousands of assault weapons by using their executive authority
under firearms import and trade laws.
"Since President Bush and members of Congress refused to protect Americans
by banning assault weapons, it is urgent that Wisconsin lawmakers take action
now," Bonavia added.
In September, Assemblywoman Christine Sinicki (20th District) announced
she would introduce statewide legislation to ban assault weapons in Wisconsin
in the wake of the expiration of the federal ban. "After this horrendous
shooting, it is more clear than ever that the Wisconsin State Legislature must
act now to ban assault weapons," Sinicki said.
There is overwhelming support for banning assault weapons from law
enforcement and from the citizens of Wisconsin, including 73% of likely voters
and 66% of gun owners in the state.


SOURCE Wisconsin Anti-Violence Effort

MinScout
November 23, 2004, 12:40 AM
Update: The death toll is now six. One of the critically wounded hunters has died. Very sad.

Tag
November 23, 2004, 01:06 AM
Wisconsin Hunter Murders Show Need for Effective Assault Weapons Ban

Makes me want to :banghead:

Jeff
November 23, 2004, 01:46 AM
Think about the unfortunate dilemma facing our liberal, nerd-headed friends.

On one hand, a semi-automatic rifle commonly associated with "assault weaponry" was used to kill six people. Let's go!

But hold the press, the six people killed were all hunters stalking Bambi's mother the night before.

Oh, what to do!?

Guy B. Meredith
November 23, 2004, 02:40 AM
Jeff,

Not to forget that some Liberals are wanting to arm themselves to fight off the Right Wing JBTs that are going to contaminate their children's minds with Christianity. What to do without affordable SKS?

(I am not pro evangelical Christian, but also do not have the narrow Liberal focus.)

mete
November 23, 2004, 05:45 AM
According to CHML news [Hamilton Ont ] the brother of the accused said he didn't think his brother would do such a thing unless he was 'provoked' !!! So provoked that he shot mostly unarmed people in the back !

hecks68
November 23, 2004, 08:21 AM
Well growing up on Northern California I hunted alot of public lands. My father and I saw with our own two eyes similar situations with the Laos folks. The used to shoot 1 buck and cut the head off, carry it in their backpack for weeks on end while shooting illegal DOES. They would hunt in packs of 8 or 10 people shooting at anything that moved. They have no respect for the land or what it provides. We witnessed them killing squirels and poking a stick through their entire body and roasting them over the fire as they squat next to it. Burning all the hair off it til it bursts then eating it right off the stick. They also used to strip all the meat off the deer and make it into jerky size pieces then let it sun dry on bed sheets while the flies buzzed it. This was all done on the hunt so as to never have to leave the scene with anything illegal. Game Wardens typically had run ins with the guys but said they can do nothing because they don't understand our laws. So instead of educating them in the prison systems, they let them walk. Who's really to blame there?

TheOtherOne
November 23, 2004, 08:35 AM
The Wisconsin shootings created political ripples Monday in Washington, D.C., where the Violence Policy Center, a national handgun-control group, called for President Bush to use his executive authority to ban all foreign-made assault rifles.From what I understand that ban is already in place per Bush Sr.

All of the so-called "semi-automatic assault rifles" available today are U.S. made.

cracked butt
November 23, 2004, 08:44 AM
I just heard about this whole ordeal last night as I was driving back from hunting camp (nothing like being blissfully cutoff from the news, the wife, and work for almost a week :) )

The lastest I've heard was that the perp did climb down out of the stand, and walked away. The victims were aways behind him, and once he had walked about 40 yards, he turned around and open fired on them, and chased down the ones who took cover. They never had a chance.

My best guess as to his motivation was that he might have been excited and on a hairtrigger already and heard a gunshot nearby and thought he was being shot at. This is a really thin reasoning, but is the best I could come up with. Saturday it rained most of the day, so many hunters did not go out, there wasn't much shooting where I was at saturday, but on Sunday, hunters were out in full force, what with the Packer game being a night game.
When you are out in the woods on opening weekend, especially opening day, there is a lot of gun fire that you can hear, and depending on the atmospheric conditions, the reports can sound much closer than they really are.
I'm not defending the man's actions one bit, but offering up a possible scenario. It is too bad that we don't have a death penalty in my state :mad:

As far as weapons go- SKSs aren't very common in wisconsin. Most use shotguns, lever actions, bolt actions or semi-auto remingtons. When I heard the name of the perp, I feared the worst, as most Laotians that I know or have seen either use a shotgun, SKS, or sometimes a mosin. Its illegal to possess FMJ cartridges while hunting.

As far as Hmong following game regulations, I'm not going to comment other than that there are some good ones and some bad ones. There are definately more 'great white hunters' who poach and shoot game illegally than Asians in my state.

cracked butt
November 23, 2004, 08:48 AM
As for the media in my state, from what I've seen, the news anchors have been fishing for the term "assault weapon" to be used, though the field reports have avoided using it. I already know what the local socialist fishwrapper "Milwaukee Journal Sentinel" is going to say or will say about the incident, therefore I will not hold my nose and buy a copy. :cuss:

Mulliga
November 23, 2004, 09:25 AM
I hate to say it, but at least he didn't use an AK clone to hunt. :mad:

Ed
November 23, 2004, 09:38 AM
Did he shoot 10 and reload?
I don't care if the guy was white,black or green, thats not the point, he is a NUT!!

SPFDRum
November 23, 2004, 10:43 AM
The St Paul Pioneer press today, 11-23, they are reporting 2 important things. 1- He had a 20 round clip in the gun that was found empty upon arrest. 2- Which is more telling, he removed the scope from his gun prior to shooting the victims. For us that hunt in the heavy woods and brush of northern Wisconsin and Minnesota know that is done for really only 1 reason, to aquire targets and shoot much faster than if you had to find them in a scope. Reads alot like premeditation in my book.

walking arsenal
November 23, 2004, 11:01 AM
His wife was quoted in saying "we dont care what they say, we know he didn't do it"

right lady, so who did? :scrutiny:

one of the sheriffs said vang was calm, in his words "freakishly calm"

GhostRider-Nine
November 23, 2004, 12:09 PM
The way I see it is that most people are just not KILLERS. They just do not think that way. This gave the guy with an SKS a real advantage. When he returned, he knew what he was going to do....he intended to kill as many of those hunters as he could. I have read that even in combat, some will just not fire their rifle, and I imagine it would be a lot worse when you are not at war. I believe it was Jeff Cooper that came up with the White, Yellow, and Red threat levels (White, safe no threat....Yellow, I may have to kill someone....Red, I may have to kill that person)....most people even when in danger are in White. And without fail have a REAL hard time going from White to Red. As for me, I never go up into the National Forest unarmed. I always carry a locked and loaded .45 on my hip, and a rifle, and very seldom go alone....and I spend most of my time in condition Yellow...unless I'm asleep. Some say this is being paranoid, but I say it is just common sense in this day and age to be aware of your surroundings. It will be very interesting to see how all this plays out, and to hear more of the story. I will say one thing though...that fellow was commiting armed treaspass, which is a felony from the get go. That seems to demostate intent, and I would have been VERY careful on approach, and even after the fact. The big mistake the hunters made was that it looked like they thought they were safe after the treaspasser left....they should not have assummed that, I know I would'nt have.

Werewolf
November 23, 2004, 12:33 PM
It's probably time to drop a note to Mr. Bush at:

President of the United States (president@whitehouse.gov) and point out that incidents like this hunter shooting often result in the over reaction of liberals and calls for more gun banning. Ask him to give things a chance to calm down before he makes any decisions regarding SKS and other rifles of it's same ilk.

You might also point out that since he is a staunch defender of the 2nd Amendment (well - he thinks he is anyway) that banning a class of firearms does little more than punish the many for the acts of a few.

I know I'm going to as soon as I get home tonight.

PaleRyder
November 23, 2004, 01:13 PM
I talked to my Hmong colleague today. He doesn't know this guy at all (probably the same situation I get when people find I used to work someplace where over 2,000 people worked, thinking I'd know someone).

His comment on the incident was :"That guy must be a psycho".

Andrew Rothman
November 23, 2004, 01:38 PM
Um, yeah, since there are 300,000 Hmong people living in the U.S., it's unlikely that any two would know each other. :rolleyes:

doberman
November 23, 2004, 02:27 PM
Vang details shooting spree in woods, authorities say
Larry Oakes and Jill Burcum, Star Tribune
November 23, 2004 VANG1124




HAYWARD, Wis. -- Chai Vang, the man accused of killing six Wisconsin hunters and wounding two others in the woods of Sawyer County on Sunday, has told investigators he only opened fire after one of the six shot at him.

That account differs sharply from that of one of the wounded.

Vang's story came out in documents released today as part of a probable cause hearing in the case before Circuit Judge Norman Yackel. Yackel ruled there is probable cause to try Vang for the shootings, set Vang's bail at $2.5 million and set his next court appearance for Dec. 20.

According to the documents, this is what Vang told investigators:

He was lost in the woods and climbed into an unoccupied deer stand. After about 15 minutes, another hunter came upon the scene, told Vang he was on private property and told him to leave. The man summoned his friends via radio. Others showed up, surrounded Vang and started using racial epithets.

Map of shootingsVang said only one of the people confronting him was armed. Vang said that as he turned to leave, he saw the man with the gun point it at him. Then, Vang said the man fired at him from about 100 feet, with the bullet hitting the ground about 30 feet behind. Vang said he knelt and fired twice. The man dropped.

Others in the group began to run, some through the woods and others to the ATVs on which they'd arrived. Vang said he fired more shots and others in the group dropped. He said he chased one man (believed to be Joey Crotteau) through the woods, firing as he ran. The man was yelling ''Help me! Help me!'' as he ran. Vang said that when he got to within about 15 feet of him, Vang fired again, and the man fell. Vang said he walked up to the man, heard him groan and then walked away.

The account provided by Vang stands in sharp contrast to one provided by Lauren Hesebeck, one of the wounded hunters. According to what Hesebeck told authorities, Vang started to walk away from the group, got about 40 yards away, turned and began firing. Vang shot at Terry Willers, one of those killed, several times. Hessebeck claims Willers returned fire before he was hit, but said Vang fired first.

Hesebeck has since been released from the hospital after being treated for his wounds.

Earlier today, the attorney-manager of the Spooner, Wis., branch of the Wisconsin Public Defender's Office said that authorities in Sawyer County are preventing anyone from his office from visiting Vang.

''We've been denied access by the sheriff's department,'' said James McLaughlin, adding that he is ''working with the public defender's main office in Madison to gain access to Vang.

McLaughlin said he has been told that Vang has not requested an attorney, so authorities say they don't have to admit anyone from McLaughlin's office. McLaughlin said he has met with members of Vang's family, who have told him they want him to meet with Vang.

''Professionally, I am concerned,'' he said. ''We are in the process of trying to resolve this.''

The sheriff could not be reached for comment.

Also, the medical conditions of the two survivors of the shooting rampage in Wisconsin have improved.

Lauren Hesebeck was released from Lakeview Medical Center in Rice Lake. St. Joseph's Hospital in Marshfield upgraded the condition of Terry Willers from serious to fair today.

Willers and Hesebeck survived the deer camp shooting that left six others in their hunting party dead.

Willers was the first person shot Sunday when a hunter allegedly opened fire on private land.

As he lay wounded on the ground, Willers managed to radio to others that they were under fire.

This article contains material from the Associated Press.

hm
November 23, 2004, 02:31 PM
As a Liberal, let me give the non-Liberals on this board some honest advice on how to characterize the Wisconsin hunting homocide issue to your anti-2nd friends in a way they will understand and accept. Remember, we wanna win them over to our side, not alienate them by attacking and enraging them...they'll just dig-in deeper:

ANTI-2ND FRIEND: See? We need to outlaw those stupid SKS assault rifles, and ban hunting while we're at it! Guys with weapons of war in the wilderness are bound to shoot each other!

YOU: I understand your shock at the shootings in Wisconsin, but gun ownership and hunting aren't the problem. Countless thousands of folks own hunting rifles like the SKS ,which is not an assault rifle, shoot them and hunt with them without incident. On the other hand, a lot more people are victims each year of vehicular homicide than of hunting-related homicide. The answer to the vehicular homicides is not to ban cars and ban roads...it is to better educate those who use them and work to help solve the societal ills that lead to homicidal behavior. The same applies to guns, or anything else that is used to kill, for that matter.

THE END

You've gotta remember that we Libs, though we can be reactionary, are usually detail-oriented and respond well to reason. Reason can usually return a passionate Liberal from an emotionally-charged issue back into sobriety.

That is my gift to you. You can return the favor by refraining from Lib-bashing this posting even after I gave you this gift of strategy in our common fight for the 2nd. :D (Yea, like that'll ever happen on THR) :D

hecks68
November 23, 2004, 02:40 PM
he's claiming self defense.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6551094/

red_devil1469
November 23, 2004, 02:45 PM
How do you claim you didn't know you where on private property when you climb in a tree stand?Are there public tree stands?

F4GIB
November 23, 2004, 02:46 PM
He's a wife beater too. The police were called, he was arrested, but never charged. He confessed to the responding officers. They did not need any cooperation from the wife to prosecute him.

Shame on you Amy Klobuchar (anti-gun DFLer & Hennepin County Attorney). There are plenty of laws. The problem is lazy enforcement.

http://www.startribune.com/stories/462/5100426.html

cracked butt
November 23, 2004, 03:01 PM
The FBI and other LEOs will probably be able to sort out whether Vang was shot at first. I would bet my next paycheck that they didn't fire at him first.

RKCheung
November 23, 2004, 03:07 PM
IF the guy's story is true and he was fired upon first, the first shooting MIGHT be self-defense, but I don't see any possible justification for running after and killing unarmed individuals trying to escape.

ReadyontheRight
November 23, 2004, 03:19 PM
"How do you claim you didn't know you where on private property when you climb in a tree stand?Are there public tree stands?"

In Minnesota, you can build a permanent tree stand on public property, but you cannot lay claim to it. So...if a guy gets up at 3am and beats you to your stand on public land, you cannot kick him out.

Of course there are no laws regarding where you can relieve yourself, loudly sing 'The Star Spangled Banner' or light up a big stinky cigar, so taking another guy's deer stand isn't all that smart. :)

I have seen fixed stands on public land in Wisconsin, but I am unclear of the WI law since I would only climb into a stand not my own if I was completely sure that no one else was around. And I would get out apologizing profusely if someone wanted to use a stand that they built, regardless of the law.

No excuse whatsoever, but the fact that it's a fixed stand does not necessarily mean that it is private land. I do recall the Sheriff telling the press yesterday that the property was well-marked.

El Rojo
November 23, 2004, 04:34 PM
I agree, I think it is going to be fairly easy to figure out who started the shooting and whether his story is legit or not. If they found the one gun present still unfired and loaded or even unloaded, his story is going to sink fast. If he did take his scope off of the SKS, he is going to have a hard time explaining that too. Regardless, if he did indeed track down the fleeing unarmed people, he is still going to do time. His story sounds much like the many stories you hear when people are guilty, it just doesn't make sense.

molonlabe
November 23, 2004, 04:37 PM
hm
You can return the favor by refraining from Lib-bashing this posting even after I gave you this gift of strategy in our common fight for the 2nd.

No bashing from me and I welcome your input but as an engineer my observation is most liberal antiunners (some in my family too) seem to be moved more by emotion than logic. You may be the direct opposite of this and that’s wonderful but that has not been my experience. For example....

My cousin. "Your guns look so evil".

My AR 15 and M14
But she thinks my marlin 336 and SAA is OK because their cowboy guns. Go Figure :confused:

Andrew Rothman
November 23, 2004, 04:39 PM
Have you read this thread in "Strategies and Tactics"?

"Gamer at the Mini-Mart"
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=111006

Please remember that there are as many versions of events as there are observers.

There are clearly two sides here, and either -- or some combination of the two -- may be true.

None of us here was there.

Either side's story is plausible from what we know so far.

I don't doubt that forensic examination will help authorities find the truth. Let's give `em a chance to do that.

JohnMc
November 23, 2004, 04:56 PM
Are there public tree stands? red, If my memory serves, tree stands put up in the Game Lands here in NC (like Butner & Jordan) are not private.

Is Wisconsin a state that has Posted sign rules?

hm
November 23, 2004, 04:58 PM
molon... I was just talking to a friend of mine (fellow THR'er) about that very point. I fear you're right about the "Scary Loud Deathsticks" syndrome commonly found among many anti-2nd folks. That's why it's so incredibly important for all of us to act as diplomats for gun rights. We can only win folks over one person at a time, and we're each responsible for taking on this challenge.

Education and demystifying arms for those who didn't grow up around them and/or have hysterically biased feelings about them is, I'm convinced, the key. I also don't believe that the "Guns Are Scary" crowd constitutes the majority of the anti-2nd crowd (though I admit I don't have data on this point...just been my experience).

One tends to attract more flies with honey than vinegar (Not that engaging in a little harmless bashing isn't fun every now and then). :evil:

Andrew Rothman
November 23, 2004, 05:01 PM
From the Star Tribune:
In April 2001, Vang pleaded guilty to a petty misdemeanor and paid a $328 fine for possessing 93 crappies over the fishing limit.

<cringe>

Ankeny
November 23, 2004, 05:34 PM
I am with Ed on this one. I don't care what the weapon is, what the races are, or what the activity happened to be. An armed nut shot down a bunch of unarmed people. This type of thing shouldn't build a case for gun control, it shouldn't build a case against hunting, it should build a case for the death penalty. The whole episode makes me want to :barf:

SPFDRum
November 23, 2004, 06:04 PM
Hmmm, self defense....he was shot at first, had time to remove his scope and return fire. Yea, right.
The first time I was ever shot at, I was so nervous I could hardly insert a new clip. Let alone remove a scope.

Selfdfenz
November 23, 2004, 06:14 PM
1. We have survivors. They will have their stories.
2. IF one of hunters that ended up shot actually fired a round into the ground in this man's general direction it will be found...or not.
3.If that victim's weapon was not fired the landscape changes greatly
4. And of course we are led to believe from the LE statments so far made this guy is talking to an extent. All part of the investigation.

This and many other soon to be discovered facts none of us are aware of today will figure into the investigation. Sounds like a big and potentially complex crime scene. For good or ill it's pretty much to the ponit that forensic evidence will tell it's part of the story and weaken or strengthen the comments of the survivors or the shooter.

S-

White Horseradish
November 23, 2004, 07:01 PM
Official statement here in PDF format

Part 1 (http://wcco.com/content/local_file_328153121)
Part 2 (http://wcco.com/content/local_file_328153515)

See for yourself.

tyme
November 23, 2004, 07:14 PM
The VPC is cranking up the PR machine.

Please give Mr. Sugarmann a piece of your mind, and let Bush know that any anti-RKBA actions on his part will not be good for the GOP's future.
Received: from unknown (HELO CTSG-WEB01.ctsg.com) (216.205.128.114) by 0 with SMTP; 23 Nov 2004
From: Josh Sugarmann <jsugarmann@action.vpc.org>
Subject: Tell President Bush to Ban Assault Weapon Imports
Message-ID: <DELETED.JavaMail.SchedTaskAcct@CTSG-WEB01>

Dear Violence Policy Center Action Network Member:

Please contact President Bush at http://www.whitehouse.gov/contact/ and urge him to use his executive power to ban the import of all foreign-made assault rifles!

This past Sunday, an SKS assault rifle was used to kill six hunters and wound two others in Wisconsin. The SKS is the "rifle model most frequently
encountered by law enforcement officers," according to a 2002 report by the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). It has claimed at least six police lives this year alone.

As detailed in our press release issued yesterday -- http://www.vpc.org/press/0411wisc.htm -- and covered by today's New York Times, George W. Bush could use the Administration's executive authority over firearm imports to fully ban the import of all foreign-made assault rifleslike the SKS and AK-47. Unlike the recently expired assault weapons ban, such an action would not require Congressional approval. Although the President's father, former-President George H.W. Bush, and former-President William J. Clinton stopped the import of hundreds of thousands of assault weapons by using their executive authority under firearms import and trade laws, the current Bush Administration has specifically authorized the importation of SKS assault rifles from both Yugoslavia and Albania.

Please pass this e-mail along to others concerned about gun violence and urge them to join the VPC's Action Network at [link removed -- nobody here wants to join].

Thank you, as always, for your efforts to stop gun violence.

GOT
November 23, 2004, 07:20 PM
“Vang stated that at this point the only one that Vang saw with a gun was the first subject that kicked Vang out of the stand.”

So the Vang-freak shoots and murders 6 people!!! Only one of them had a gun!!! He ran down and shot and murdered 6 defenseless people! How can he call it self-defense when one of them had a gun? That guy has simply lost his scrambled up mind...

ReadyontheRight
November 23, 2004, 07:20 PM
Ankeny sums it up nicely.

itgoesboom
November 23, 2004, 07:25 PM
Sorry,

I don't buy it.

First off, when we look at this guys history, we see a certain pattern. First, he violated game laws and was caught with 93 crappies, and the limit was 15. Next, it turns out he pulled a pistol and aimed it at his wife, and threatened to kill her. BTW, 3 out of 5 of the kids present backed up the story that he did this, and he himself admitted it, but his wife refused to cooperate.

And in the last year they have had to go out for 2 domestic disturbances at his home.

This just shows a pattern that A.) He has no respect for the laws that are in place when hunting/fishing B.) he has a history of violence.

Here he is, trespassing on private property, which was clearly posted, had time to remove his scope prior to shooting the victims, and he admitadly shot several of them in the back while they were running away.

And even if one of them had shot 30' from him (which wouldn't be justified), he would only be justified in shooting the person who shot at him, unless the others rushed and tried to kill him.

He still went and hunted down and killed 5 others and wounded 2 more, while they were running away yelling for help.

:cuss:

Justice would be to put him in a blaze orange vest, set him free in the forest, unarmed, and let the hunters hunt him down.

I.G.B.

ReadyontheRight
November 23, 2004, 07:27 PM
If I recall, Vang was picked up by some guys on ATVs further back in the woods and given a ride to the road. If he DID shoot in self-defense, would he maybe have told them so?

This whole thing just stinks. I always though it was kind of cool seeing Hmong out in the woods hunting -- figuring they would help preserve our gun, wilderness and hunting rights.

I know this guy is just one bad apple, but this is definitely going to drive a wedge between two hunting cultures.

SPFDRum
November 23, 2004, 07:33 PM
"I always though it was kind of cool seeing Hmong out in the woods hunting -- figuring they would help preserve our gun, wilderness and hunting rights."

You, my friend, have never hunted in carlos Avery.... :cool:

monsternav
November 23, 2004, 08:53 PM
Vang is a seriously disturbed person. Even if his story is 100% truth, he still chased down and killed unarmed people. Interestingly, Vang and the womans story both include Vang coming back to the original scene, finding someone alive (You're not dead yet?), and basically executing him.

TallPine
November 23, 2004, 09:49 PM
After about 15 minutes, another hunter came upon the scene, told Vang he was on private property and told him to leave. The man summoned his friends via radio. Others showed up, surrounded Vang and started using racial epithets.
Okay, right here we have an indication that Vang didn't leave when he was asked to ... since he was still there to be insulted after the "others showed up."

Beren
November 23, 2004, 10:03 PM
One wonders if the guy who put up the 'SKS Owners for Kerry' website is having any second thoughts today about his Democratic leanings, now that his favored rifle is top on the hit list thanks to the acts of one solitary lunatic.

ReadyontheRight
November 23, 2004, 10:12 PM
"I always though it was kind of cool seeing Hmong out in the woods hunting -- figuring they would help preserve our gun, wilderness and hunting rights."

"You, my friend, have never hunted in carlos Avery.... "

Yeah -- I usually only hit public land near the Cities during bow or blackpowder season, and I avoid anywhere that already has a car parked.

Legionnaire
November 23, 2004, 10:26 PM
I feel pretty sick reading all this. Very sad for the families involved.

Michigander
November 23, 2004, 10:47 PM
Of course there are no laws regarding where you can relieve yourself, loudly sing 'The Star Spangled Banner' or light up a big stinky cigar, so taking another guy's deer stand isn't all that smart.Actually, I'm not sure if it is a Federal and/or State law, but here in Michigan, if you purposely interfere with a person who is legally hunting, fishing or trapping, you can be arrested. Probably a misdemeanor, but there is some such law.

Daedalus
November 23, 2004, 11:08 PM
I feel pretty sick reading all this. Very sad for the families involved.

I feel the same way... reading the police report actually gave me chills... those poor people... :(

benEzra
November 24, 2004, 07:52 AM
The police report says it was a "Saiga SKS." Which means that it probably wasn't an SKS, but a Saiga. (Which is bad; I'm sure the media will try to spin that one. :fire: )

I had been confused about how Vang could have removed an SKS scope without hand tools, but if it was a Saiga that would explain it (QD siderail mount).

cracked butt
November 24, 2004, 08:21 AM
I have a feeling that if the hunters were the "rednecks" that the perp is trying to paint them as and that if they had truely had shot first, Vang would be buried in an unmarked grave somewhere in the Northern Wisconsin wilderness.

Actually, I'm not sure if it is a Federal and/or State law, but here in Michigan, if you purposely interfere with a person who is legally hunting, fishing or trapping, you can be arrested. Probably a misdemeanor, but there is some such law.

We have such a law here also that was put in place because of antihunters harassing hunters. The law does not protect "hunters" right to hunt while tresspassing or poaching however.

dkochan
November 24, 2004, 09:17 AM
Based on the police report Vang appears guilty of murder. There was not justification for shooting unarmed people in "blaze orange" clothing. Vang should be put away for life since he can't get the death penalty.

outfieldjack
November 24, 2004, 09:24 AM
I also found it interesting that he shot all of the unarmed people, but when armed people pulled up, he decided not to confront them. Worthless piece of crap.

Gewehr98
November 24, 2004, 09:39 AM
Sounds like they want to scare the public, by throwing in an invalid reference to the AK-47 for good measure:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/11/23/hunters.shot/index.html

Some of those killed had multiple gunshot wounds. The shooter used an SKS 7.62 mm semiautomatic rifle, a variant of the AK-47, the sheriff's office said. That type of rifle is common among hunters.

BTW, I can remove my SKS scope without hand tools. It has thumb knobs for tightening and loosening the scope ring clamps on the receiver cover's Weaver base.

Gewehr98
November 24, 2004, 10:10 AM
As far as weapons go- SKSs aren't very common in wisconsin. Most use shotguns, lever actions, bolt actions or semi-auto remingtons. When I heard the name of the perp, I feared the worst, as most Laotians that I know or have seen either use a shotgun, SKS, or sometimes a mosin. Its illegal to possess FMJ cartridges while hunting.

As a Sauk County resident, I've seen plenty of SKS rifles in the woods during deer season. Same goes for when I visited friends in Green County for a couple seasons. Low recoil, minute-of-deer accuracy, cheap gun and ammo, ballistics similar to the .30-30 Winchester, why not? One member of my immediate family is actually a DNR State Park Administrator in Sauk County, and she's seen plenty of SKS, M1 Carbine, AK, and the occasional VZ-52/57 rifles out there during deer season. 5-round magazines are common for most, otherwise a magazine block is used. And, as a news flash, there's plenty of soft-point 7.62x39 ammo out there on the commercial market. I've got oodles of it dating to 1999, made by Winchester, no less.

PaleRyder
November 24, 2004, 10:42 AM
Thanks to Matt.
I work with a guy who is Hmong, I consider him a friend, and he's one of the nicest, if not THE nicest guy I work with at my company.

TechBrute
November 24, 2004, 01:35 PM
I think it's funny how many of you are heading for the shed to get the lynchin' rope after hearing the fewest of "facts" reported by the same news agencies that you complain about in thread after thread.

Could he be a deranged psychopath who murdered 6 unarmed innocent victims? Sure. But that's not the only thing that could have happened.

You are hunting. Someone with a gun comes along and tells you that you can't be there. He calls you all sorts of names in the process indicating that there are other underlying issues besides your trespassing. You climb down from the deer stand and you are surrounded by 7 of his friends who make physically threatening moves around you. You begin to walk off and the one with the rifle shoots at you. Warning shot or bad shot? You don't know, but at this point you feel you are protecting yourself. You shoot and kill the man with the rifle that shot at you. Now his 7 friends who may or may not be armed are spreading out. Are they reaching into their pockets for their pistols? Are they really unarmed? Some are headed for their ATVs. Do they have weapons on the ATVs? Think of yourself being in that situation.

There are more sides to the story than are being reported. For you to make a judgement at this point is laughable, especially since your source for the "facts" in this case are the same bunch that thinks he used an "automatic" or "assault weapon." :rolleyes:

2nd Amendment
November 24, 2004, 01:51 PM
Sorry, no. There might be an argument for self defense with the first victim. From then on it's a done deal. He shot them in the back. By his own admission. He asked "Aren't you dead yet". By his own admission. There's very little to "jump to conclusions" over because of Vang's own words.

itgoesboom
November 24, 2004, 01:51 PM
Techbrute,

According to the shooter, he chased down several of the people, including one who was running away screaming "HELP HELP, and shot him in the back, twice.

He then went back to the scene of the first shooting, and saw one his victims and said "aren't you dead yet?".

Even if the intial shooting was justified, hunting down and shooting the others in the back isn't.

This guy is guilty of 6 murders.

I.G.B.

Bigfoot
November 24, 2004, 01:52 PM
Here's the Victims Fund, I don't remember seeing it posted anywhere.

Rice Lake Hunters Survivors and Victims Fund
Dairy State Bank
16 S. Main St.
Rice Lake, Wis. 54868

TechBrute
November 24, 2004, 01:59 PM
The shooter's statement came out yesterday. Until then, there was 2 days of everyone jumping to conclusions. Personally, I think the guy's a psycho, but it's not as one sided as everyone initially believed.

voilsb
November 24, 2004, 02:21 PM
He was lost in the woods and climbed into an unoccupied deer stand. After about 15 minutes, another hunter came upon the scene, told Vang he was on private property and told him to leave. That's when he should have gotten out of the stand, apologized, said he was lost, and proceeded off the property. Voila, everyone's happy.

The man summoned his friends via radio. Others showed up, surrounded Vang and started using racial epithets.Shouldn't he have been gone by this point? Or at least, on his way out?

Vang said only one of the people confronting him was armed. Vang said that as he turned to leave, he saw the man with the gun point it at him. Then, Vang said the man fired at him from about 100 feet, with the bullet hitting the ground about 30 feet behind. Vang said he knelt and fired twice. The man dropped.Okay, possibly self-defense. That's acceptable to generate reasonable doubt in conviction.

Others in the group began to run, some through the woods and others to the ATVs on which they'd arrived. Vang said he fired more shots and others in the group dropped. He said he chased one man (believed to be Joey Crotteau) through the woods, firing as he ran. The man was yelling ''Help me! Help me!'' as he ran. Vang said that when he got to within about 15 feet of him, Vang fired again, and the man fell. Vang said he walked up to the man, heard him groan and then walked away.This, however, if murder, flat out. Shooting guys who are running away. Shooting them in the back. Chasing them down, and making sure they're dead. That's murder, not self-defense.

Bigfoot
November 24, 2004, 04:54 PM
More information on the backshooter. http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=718&e=9&u=/ap/20041124/ap_on_re_us/hunters_shot

KAR120C
November 24, 2004, 05:10 PM
I agree with Voilsb's comments. If the land owner was stupid/criminal enough to actually fire a shot, regardless of whether it was meant to kill or scare, then he opened himself up to return fire. Note the "if" though. After that it was murder/getting rid of witnesses.

I work in St. Paul, with a lot of people named Vang. I imagine some know this guy or are even related to him. All the Vang's I know are cheerful and hardworking. This guy, however, is murdering scum.

I never hear anyone mention the cost of the rifle as being a deciding factor for this guy using an SKS. He's from East St. Paul, the poor side of town. And from what I understand the SKS is one of the best bargains out there. Ironically enough I was just considering getting one myself last week.

Bigfoot
November 24, 2004, 05:22 PM
Police are now checking to see if Vang had a connection with a 2001 murder of a deer hunter 80 miles from last weekends incident. In 2001 a hunter named Jim Southworth was found dead with gunshots to his back that exited his chest. Sound familiar?

In that case police are looking for three asians who left in a late '80's silver nissan or chevy pickup.

Vang owned a 1987 Nissan pickup in 2001 and had out of state hunting tags to Wisconson for 2001.

Pretty circumstancial at this point, if vang was involved hopefully there will be a casing or bullet match, or Jim Southworths Ruger 77 30-06 (which was not at the murder scene) might turn up connected with Vang, etc.

Andrew Rothman
November 24, 2004, 06:19 PM
I work in St. Paul, with a lot of people named Vang. I imagine some know this guy or are even related to him. All the Vang's I know are cheerful and hardworking. This guy, however, is murdering scum.

Well, maybe one in four Hmong in Minnesota are named Vang. I found 400+ in St. Paul alone in the online yellow pages -- and I only got up to first names starting with G!

larry_minn
November 29, 2004, 12:21 AM
Regards him not shooting other hunters who helped him find his way out of woods. I understand he was OUT OF AMMO.......


They can thank their lucky stars he was out of ammo.

RKCheung
November 29, 2004, 03:23 AM
Police report says he stated that he threw the rest of his ammo in the water prior to meeting the hunters who led him out.

molonlabe
November 29, 2004, 10:56 AM
I bet he ran out.

joebogey
November 29, 2004, 11:40 AM
I bet he ran out.

I have no idea what happened, but I would think it would be better for a jury to hear how " you were so sickened by what happened, you threw the rest of your ammo away."
Rather than," I had to quit shooting cause I ran out of shells.

I'm bettin you're right.

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