Schmit
February 28, 2003, 09:42 AM
Gaston Glock - Doing for the 21 Century what John Browning did for the 20th!
Ye Thoughts?
:cool:
Ye Thoughts?
:cool:
1911 v G37
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buzz_knox
February 28, 2003, 10:15 AM
Thoughts? Pulling on a nomex flame retardant suit or ducking and covering come to mind. You compared Glock and his bastard creation to St. Browning and his miracle of steel and wood? Incoming!!!
;)
;)
Tecolote
February 28, 2003, 10:18 AM
Why the G37? I doubt the proprietary caliber will take off because the circumstances are completely different between the 45ACP and the 45Glock.
Too early too tell about Glocks and 1911s. We'll have to wait a full century to know. One thing that the 1911 has going for it the the Glock doesn't yet have is decades of combat use. The 1911 was used in two world wars and in a bunch of other conflicts. It's still in use today.:eek:
Too early too tell about Glocks and 1911s. We'll have to wait a full century to know. One thing that the 1911 has going for it the the Glock doesn't yet have is decades of combat use. The 1911 was used in two world wars and in a bunch of other conflicts. It's still in use today.:eek:
Preacherman
February 28, 2003, 10:19 AM
No way! I love Glocks, and carry them often, but JMB was a "full-service" firearms designer compared to GG's "handgun-only" stable. JMB designed multiple rifles, shotguns and handguns, over a period of well over 40 years IIRC. He defined the state of the art for his generation, and some of his designs are still in production over 100 years later. GG has done great things for semi-auto pistols, no doubt about that (see all the copies! :D ), but he's nowhere near the versatility and sheer genius of JMB.
Tecolote
February 28, 2003, 10:22 AM
I hate to disagree so early in a thread but what are the Glock copies?
Polymer frame? High Standard and HK did that first
Striker fired? Doesn't that go back to the 1920s?
Safety trigger? That goes back to a Sauer Sohn design from 1934
Locking action? That goes back to Stahl doesn't it?
The Glock is the sum of its parts while the 1911 was the birth of something new.
Polymer frame? High Standard and HK did that first
Striker fired? Doesn't that go back to the 1920s?
Safety trigger? That goes back to a Sauer Sohn design from 1934
Locking action? That goes back to Stahl doesn't it?
The Glock is the sum of its parts while the 1911 was the birth of something new.
10-Ring
February 28, 2003, 11:14 AM
45 Glock? My 1st impression is that it's a solution to a non-problem. Let's see how deep that pocket is & see if it establishes itself in the handgun community.
XLMiguel
February 28, 2003, 11:51 AM
G37/.45Glock = an answer to a question nobody asked.
Longbow
February 28, 2003, 12:07 PM
.45 Glock? No, thanks! 'nough said..:mad:
45auto
February 28, 2003, 12:32 PM
I don't think it will do much for guns and ammo in the 21st century, but I suspect it will sell.
The caliber is not needed, but most calibers available today are not needed either.
It's a Glock, the most popular autoloader sold today, and they are putting bigger bullets in a 9mm sized gun with 10 rounds. A popular trend, i.e. the 40.
The 10 rounds seem to be the "key", otherwise why not stick to the 45ACP. But, why have a "fat" gun if it doesn't hold at least 10 rounds.
I think it will affect the 40 sales more than 45ACP sales of guns.
It will be a pain in the neck, if it becomes popular, sorting brass at a range with ACP. So, for that singular selfish reason I hope it doesn't sell well.
The caliber is not needed, but most calibers available today are not needed either.
It's a Glock, the most popular autoloader sold today, and they are putting bigger bullets in a 9mm sized gun with 10 rounds. A popular trend, i.e. the 40.
The 10 rounds seem to be the "key", otherwise why not stick to the 45ACP. But, why have a "fat" gun if it doesn't hold at least 10 rounds.
I think it will affect the 40 sales more than 45ACP sales of guns.
It will be a pain in the neck, if it becomes popular, sorting brass at a range with ACP. So, for that singular selfish reason I hope it doesn't sell well.
ruger357
February 28, 2003, 02:01 PM
1911:D
duncan
February 28, 2003, 03:33 PM
The new Glock caliber offers nothing new.
Just like the G36. Little thinner but who cares!
And I own Glocks and 1911s.
Just like the G36. Little thinner but who cares!
And I own Glocks and 1911s.
Johnny Guest
February 28, 2003, 05:13 PM
HERE's a topic calculated to set the blood racing amongst the loyalists in each cause . . . .
I'm sure some will concur with the premise, and others will take exception, to a greater or lesser degree.
I personally think of the various Glock products as merely tools- - -Purpose-designed to meet specifications for a client. As is sometimes the case with a well-thought-out tool, it had appeal beyond the originally projected market. The maker would have been remiss, both to his own bank account, and to his investors (were there any??) if he/they didn't try to expand the market for a product already in production. It worked--It was a real success story.
The Glock firearms line was an admittedly excellent adaptation of existing designs, as ennumerated by tecolote, well combined and put together with modern manufacturing techniques. Little or nothing truly innovative, but an excellent combination of concepts, at just about the right time.
I believe it is over reaching a bit to use Herr Glock's name in comparison with J. M. Browning's. But we should give credit where due, and freely grant that posterity will judge the Glock line of arms as significant.
I highly doubt that the 45Glock cartridge fills any gaping niche not already well bridged by the 9x19 mm, the .40 and the .45 ACP. The .40 was an unexpectedly successful dark horse, but, hey, what of the 10 mm Auto, the 10 mm AE, the .357 SiG, the .400 CorBon, the 9x twenty-whatevers, the .356 TSW (?,) the 9 mm Federal, and who knows how many others?
I like firearms in general, and handguns particularly. I have my own preferences, but could probably get along with almost any well made, dependable, moderately powerful, middle sized, sidearm. Isn't it nice we have such a wide range of choices? :)
Best regards,
Johnny
(A voice of moderation, I hope)
I'm sure some will concur with the premise, and others will take exception, to a greater or lesser degree.
I personally think of the various Glock products as merely tools- - -Purpose-designed to meet specifications for a client. As is sometimes the case with a well-thought-out tool, it had appeal beyond the originally projected market. The maker would have been remiss, both to his own bank account, and to his investors (were there any??) if he/they didn't try to expand the market for a product already in production. It worked--It was a real success story.
The Glock firearms line was an admittedly excellent adaptation of existing designs, as ennumerated by tecolote, well combined and put together with modern manufacturing techniques. Little or nothing truly innovative, but an excellent combination of concepts, at just about the right time.
I believe it is over reaching a bit to use Herr Glock's name in comparison with J. M. Browning's. But we should give credit where due, and freely grant that posterity will judge the Glock line of arms as significant.
I highly doubt that the 45Glock cartridge fills any gaping niche not already well bridged by the 9x19 mm, the .40 and the .45 ACP. The .40 was an unexpectedly successful dark horse, but, hey, what of the 10 mm Auto, the 10 mm AE, the .357 SiG, the .400 CorBon, the 9x twenty-whatevers, the .356 TSW (?,) the 9 mm Federal, and who knows how many others?
I like firearms in general, and handguns particularly. I have my own preferences, but could probably get along with almost any well made, dependable, moderately powerful, middle sized, sidearm. Isn't it nice we have such a wide range of choices? :)
Best regards,
Johnny
(A voice of moderation, I hope)
gk1
February 28, 2003, 05:48 PM
Are you comparing the pistols or the men? If the pistols, I'll stay out of it as I'm a 1911 fan, but haven't had much experience with Glocks. If you're comparing Gaston Glock to JMB, get back to me when he's done something more than design a pistol or two!
George
George
Jason Demond
February 28, 2003, 06:43 PM
I'll take the .45 ACP over the .45 Glock anyday!:barf:
HIPOWER
February 28, 2003, 08:46 PM
I think Mr. Guest made some fine points. It's really not a question of whether we NEED a new caliber like the 45Glock. I for one simply buy the guns I WANT and enjoy shooting them....all different sizes, shapes and calibers. Variety adds spice to our sport. The world would be a boring place if all we had was the 45ACP (of course it is sufficient for the range and self defense, but why not have variety?) I'm sure that many folks will take an interest in this new caliber, including me.
Nobody asks "Why have Ford AND Chevy?"
Does this make Pontiac "an answer to a question nobody asked" or "a solution to a non-problem"???
No, because variety, new things and ingenuity are the pleasures of life!
I for one am glad that the shooting industry, and even Glock in particular, is a progressive entity that comes up with new ideas and offers us new things. It adds spice to our sport.
My .02
Nobody asks "Why have Ford AND Chevy?"
Does this make Pontiac "an answer to a question nobody asked" or "a solution to a non-problem"???
No, because variety, new things and ingenuity are the pleasures of life!
I for one am glad that the shooting industry, and even Glock in particular, is a progressive entity that comes up with new ideas and offers us new things. It adds spice to our sport.
My .02
M58
February 28, 2003, 08:49 PM
Stupid idea...
And so is the Glock...:neener:
And so is the Glock...:neener:
cheygriz
February 28, 2003, 10:53 PM
I have a beautiful Remington Rand 1911A1 converted to a full house target gun. I also have a Glock 21 in .45 ACP.
I love shooting that old 1911A1, but IMHO, it's an antique design, like the SAA. If I really needed a handgun to defend my life, I wouldn't trade one Glock, regardless of calibe, for all of the 1911s ever made. Just MHO!
I love shooting that old 1911A1, but IMHO, it's an antique design, like the SAA. If I really needed a handgun to defend my life, I wouldn't trade one Glock, regardless of calibe, for all of the 1911s ever made. Just MHO!
Preacherman
February 28, 2003, 11:50 PM
I think the real reason for the development of the 45 Glock was simply to allow use of a G17/G22/G31 size frame and slide with a .45 caliber cartridge. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of LE agencies using these weapons that have invested tens of thousands of dollars in magazine carriers, security holsters, weapon lights, etc. for this standard frame size. These agencies now have the option of "upgrading" to a .45 caliber weapon, with external ballistics very similar to the legendary .45 ACP, but which can still use all of their existing equipment. I think this is the primary reason for the development of the new round, and in this market, I think it will probably do fairly well.
As for non-LE use? Well, I'll wait until I can shoot the weapon and see how it performs. If I like it, I might just get a couple! :D
As for non-LE use? Well, I'll wait until I can shoot the weapon and see how it performs. If I like it, I might just get a couple! :D
Pendragon
March 1, 2003, 03:47 AM
I dont understand why they cant make a .45ACP gun that will fit all the LEO gear.
Is the cartridge just too long?
I love shooting that old 1911A1, but IMHO, it's an antique design, like the SAA. If I really needed a handgun to defend my life, I wouldn't trade one Glock, regardless of calibe, for all of the 1911s ever made. Just MHO!
Your Remington Rand is certainly an antique, and the design is aproaching 100 years old, but comparing it to an SAA is just silly.
The mission of the handgun has not really changed over the past 100 years (well, we do fewer cavalry charges now...).
The idea that a newer design is better is true in electronics and perhaps in machinery where mechanical efficiency is an issue - but it does not map well to firearms.
Is the cartridge just too long?
I love shooting that old 1911A1, but IMHO, it's an antique design, like the SAA. If I really needed a handgun to defend my life, I wouldn't trade one Glock, regardless of calibe, for all of the 1911s ever made. Just MHO!
Your Remington Rand is certainly an antique, and the design is aproaching 100 years old, but comparing it to an SAA is just silly.
The mission of the handgun has not really changed over the past 100 years (well, we do fewer cavalry charges now...).
The idea that a newer design is better is true in electronics and perhaps in machinery where mechanical efficiency is an issue - but it does not map well to firearms.
Schmit
March 1, 2003, 07:09 AM
I think the real reason for the development of the 45 Glock was simply to allow use of a G17/G22/G31 size frame and slide with a .45 caliber cartridge.
I offer two other reasons
- Herr Glock's ego.
- The Euro Market where .45 ACP is not allowed.
I offer two other reasons
- Herr Glock's ego.
- The Euro Market where .45 ACP is not allowed.
Triad
March 1, 2003, 10:00 AM
I don't understand why they cant make a .45ACP gun that will fit all the LEO gear. Is the cartridge just too long?
I don't think the cartridge is too long, I think the problem is the magazines Glock makes. I've heard that if Glock would make a metal mag that had the same external dimensions as the polymer ones they use for the 9mm, the metal mag would be big enough for the .45 and 10mm.
I don't think the cartridge is too long, I think the problem is the magazines Glock makes. I've heard that if Glock would make a metal mag that had the same external dimensions as the polymer ones they use for the 9mm, the metal mag would be big enough for the .45 and 10mm.
Tamara
March 1, 2003, 10:14 AM
Not just mag length, but chamber and ejection port length, too. The small-frame Glocks are designed around 19mm-length cartridges.
Personally? I think the new caliber is going to flop; it's not just bore diameter that Americans love about the .45 ACP, it's the mystique of the whole cartridge. (Also, the tiny case capacity of the round and the restriction to 200gr bullets seem to be a recipe for bullet setback problems, as well as folks brewing up ".45 Glock +P" loads and blowing mags out of wells from sea to shining sea...)
Personally? I think the new caliber is going to flop; it's not just bore diameter that Americans love about the .45 ACP, it's the mystique of the whole cartridge. (Also, the tiny case capacity of the round and the restriction to 200gr bullets seem to be a recipe for bullet setback problems, as well as folks brewing up ".45 Glock +P" loads and blowing mags out of wells from sea to shining sea...)
Boats
March 1, 2003, 10:42 AM
My take on the .45G?
:barf:
Personally, I am awaiting the stupendous coup of Gaston renaming the 9x18mm the ".357 Glock":evil:
:barf:
Personally, I am awaiting the stupendous coup of Gaston renaming the 9x18mm the ".357 Glock":evil:
Tamara
March 1, 2003, 11:16 AM
My take on the .45G?
:barf:
Whoa. Big shock, there. ;)
Next thing you know, Stephen Camp will say he loves the High Power, Ala Dan will wax eloquent about the P-220, Tropical Z will defend the Hi Point, denfoote will mention whatever pistol he bought today in his sig line, lunde will post pics of a truly obscene collection of P7s, and Handy will declare the P9S the Pistol Of The Future.
These predictions free from the Amazing Karnak... ;) :D
:barf:
Whoa. Big shock, there. ;)
Next thing you know, Stephen Camp will say he loves the High Power, Ala Dan will wax eloquent about the P-220, Tropical Z will defend the Hi Point, denfoote will mention whatever pistol he bought today in his sig line, lunde will post pics of a truly obscene collection of P7s, and Handy will declare the P9S the Pistol Of The Future.
These predictions free from the Amazing Karnak... ;) :D
DeltaElite
March 1, 2003, 11:34 AM
Glocks are reliable out of the box.
1911's are rarely reliable out of the box IMHO, even my $900 Kimber jammed.
I shoot the 1911 better, but I am required to carry the Glock.
I will get a Glock 37, I think it's a good idea for people with little hands like me.
My Delta Gold Cup looks like a million bucks, my Glocks look like...... well Glocks. :D
1911's are rarely reliable out of the box IMHO, even my $900 Kimber jammed.
I shoot the 1911 better, but I am required to carry the Glock.
I will get a Glock 37, I think it's a good idea for people with little hands like me.
My Delta Gold Cup looks like a million bucks, my Glocks look like...... well Glocks. :D
Tecolote
March 1, 2003, 11:58 AM
As other posters have said ego and non-US market are two big reasons for the new caliber.
Jason Demond
March 1, 2003, 04:17 PM
These predictions free from the Amazing Karnak
Tamara, I don't know what we would do without you!
Tamara, I don't know what we would do without you!
denfoote
March 2, 2003, 02:01 AM
I dunno!! I just picked up my first 1911 today and you know what??? It shoots pretty durn good!! I don't think I'll be in the market for the .45 kurz. :evil:
tex_n_cal
March 2, 2003, 02:12 AM
Actually, I think the best reason for the .45 Glock is all the other neat 9mm size guns that could now take a .45 cal cartridge.:D
lessee...a Kahr .45 G, a .45G Hi-power, a P7/45.
Wouldn't it be amusing if Smith or Colt made a compact SA auto, slimmed down, scaled to the .45G round? turnabout is fair play:D :neener:
lessee...a Kahr .45 G, a .45G Hi-power, a P7/45.
Wouldn't it be amusing if Smith or Colt made a compact SA auto, slimmed down, scaled to the .45G round? turnabout is fair play:D :neener:
gk1
March 2, 2003, 01:31 PM
From the information presented in another thread about whether or not GG designed the G17 or not, it would seem that he's got a lot more in common with Winchester than with JMB (building and marketing the designs of another).
BTW, where'd Schmit go? Seems like he just posed the question and is sitting back watching the storm. If he hadn't posted before, I'd call troll...
George
BTW, where'd Schmit go? Seems like he just posed the question and is sitting back watching the storm. If he hadn't posted before, I'd call troll...
George
Tamara
March 2, 2003, 01:40 PM
If he hadn't posted before, I'd call troll...
Oh, I wouldn't let that stop me... ;)
Oh, I wouldn't let that stop me... ;)
Al Thompson
March 2, 2003, 01:57 PM
Yep. Something about "shoes" and "fits" pops into my mind.
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