Another reason not to fly


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JCOJR
February 28, 2003, 10:58 AM
http://channels.netscape.com/ns/news/story.jsp?floc=FF-APO-PLS&idq=/ff/story/5001/20030228/0748000002.htm&photoid=20030217FX102


U.S. plan: Threat level for every flyer


Civil liberties groups are objecting to a government plan for a new system that would check background information and assign a threat level to everyone who buys a ticket for a commercial flight.

Activists see the potential for unconstitutional invasions of privacy and for database mix-ups that could lead to innocent people being branded security risks.


"This system threatens to create a permanent blacklisted underclass of Americans who cannot travel freely," said Katie Corrigan, a lawyer for the American Civil Liberties Union.

There also is concern that the government is developing the system without revealing how information will be gathered and how long it will be kept.

The system, ordered by Congress after the September 11 attacks, will gather much more information on passengers than has been done previously. Delta Air Lines will try it out at three undisclosed airports beginning next month, and a comprehensive system could be in place by the end of the year.

Transportation officials say a contractor will be picked soon to build the nationwide computer system, which will check such things as credit reports and bank account activity and compare passenger names with those on government watch lists.

Advocates say the system will weed out dangerous people while ensuring law-abiding citizens aren't given unnecessary scrutiny.

Transportation officials say CAPPS II -- Computer Assisted Passenger Prescreening System -- will use databases that already operate in line with privacy laws and won't profile based on race, religion or ethnicity.

"What it does is have very fast access to existing databases so we can quickly validate the person's identity," Transportation Secretary Norman Mineta said.

An oversight panel, which will include a member of the public, is being formed. The Transportation Security Administration will set up procedures to resolve complaints by people who say they don't belong on the watch lists.

Transportation Department spokesman Chet Lunner said a Federal Register notice saying the background information will be stored for 50 years is inaccurate. He said such information will be held only for people deemed security risks.

Jay Stanley, an ACLU spokesman, was skeptical.

"When it says in print, 50 years, we'd like to see something else in print to counter that," he said.

Airlines already do rudimentary checks of passenger information, such as method of payment, address and date the ticket was reserved. The system was developed by Northwest Airlines in the early 1990s to spot possible hijackers.

Unusual behavior, such as purchasing a one-way ticket with cash, is supposed to prompt increased scrutiny at the airport.

Capt. Steve Luckey, an airline pilot who helped develop the system, said CAPPS II will help discern a passenger's possible intentions before he gets on a plane.

Unlike the current system, in which data stays with the airlines' reservation systems, the new setup will be managed by TSA. Only government officials with proper security clearance will be able to use it.

CAPPS II will collect data and rate each passenger's risk potential according to a three-color system: green, yellow, red. When travelers check in, their names will be punched into the system and their boarding passes encrypted with the ranking. TSA screeners will check the passes at checkpoints.

The vast majority of passengers will be rated green and won't be subjected to anything more than normal checks, while yellow will get extra screening and red won't fly.

Paul Hudson, executive director of the Aviation Consumer Action Project, which advocates airline safety and security, is skeptical the system will work.

"The whole track record of profiling is a very poor to mixed one," Hudson said, noting incorrect profiles of the Unabomber and the Washington-area snipers.

Nine to 11 of the 19 hijackers on September 11 were flagged by the original CAPPS, but weren't searched because the system gave a pass to passengers who didn't check their bags, Hudson said. People without checked bags are now included.

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critter
February 28, 2003, 12:14 PM
Some things that should be remembered. For the most part, congresscritters are as dumb as a crate of anvils-especially when it comes to computer technology.

Also remember that folks selling computer hardware/software/magic programs to check---whatever are REAL GOOD salesmen (ie willing to slip big bucks under the table to cc).

Therefore we wind up with all these 'wonderful' megacomputer checking systems that do nothing except annoy the stuffings out of law abiding citizenery without accomplishing anything positive.

JCOJR
February 28, 2003, 12:24 PM
Also remember that folks selling computer hardware/software/magic programs to check---whatever are REAL GOOD salesmen (ie willing to slip big bucks under the table to cc).

Good salesmen and/or spouses of Congress.

El Tejon
February 28, 2003, 12:29 PM
I'm a gun owner. I've been blacklisted for a long, long time.

hammer4nc
February 28, 2003, 05:10 PM
Another way to look at it: the CAPPSII system (assigning a color coded threat assessment to each prospective airline passenger), is only a small utility subroutine, just one tiny facet of the enhanced powers of the government to mine commercial databases.

Choosing not to fly, to avoid such profiling, would be useless. Its rather naive to think that .gov is going to wait around until you buy an airline ticket, before running generic profiles to sift out "code red" threats. Furthermore, if you get labeled "code red", what other restrictions might be imposed besides just not being able to use commercial airlines? Off the top of my head, I'd imagine "code red" people would be denied commercial drivers licenses, sensitive jobs, etc. Maybe other members can think up a few more.

For those interested, here's a good article about the extent of datamining that is possible:
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/nation/20020903-1227-n75512.html

From this article, the type of profiling portrayed in the movie "Enemy of the State" seems quite realistic (maybe not as fast as in the movie, though). Correlating all purchases made by credit card, or beyond that, what you bought on your grocery discount card last month, is all compiled.

Other implications (aside from privacy): How are mistakes corrected? What about identity theft? The supporters of this program will be shortly seeking biometric ID checkpoints to prevent fraud...I can just hear it now.

The more you think about it, the bigger it seems (almost biblical, in fact).:(

Ian
February 28, 2003, 08:24 PM
Y'know, I think that if I got blacklisted from flying, I would consider it something to be proud of.

DeltaElite
February 28, 2003, 08:32 PM
So if I get a high enough threat level, will they not seat people next to me?? Hmmmmmmmmmm

Will we be issued threat level cards?

BlackArrow
February 28, 2003, 10:19 PM
Feinstine got wind of this and is trying to stop it!:D

bad_dad_brad
February 28, 2003, 10:39 PM
The last time I flew (from Chicago to Houston) last fall I was blacklisted. I was travelling with two other guys. I had a FOID, they did not. That, in my opinion, was why I was singled out for extra scrutiny.

Ha - so funny. Men with FOIDs are probably the most trustworthy individuals in the system. I mean, I have to pass backgound checks. I am not a felon. What is with that? A FOID should give me a carte blanche pass. After all, I have entrusted my records to the state. I have been willing to record my firearms purchase. The system is run by liberal retards. Pathetic. But I won't stop flying.

Bainx
March 1, 2003, 08:59 AM
:confused:

Gundog
March 1, 2003, 09:19 AM
FOID = Firearm Owner's Identification
Anyone interested in legally owning firearms in Illinois must be registered with the State Police.

El Tejon
March 1, 2003, 09:37 AM
Bainx, in the PRi it means "Firearms Owner Identification Card"

To us, it means WTH.

pax
March 1, 2003, 12:51 PM
I'm too angry and too bitter to post anything coherent about this one.

Folks, we ARE headed for a tyranny, a police state, a national tragedy.

We are headed for the cliff at full throttle, with the pedal to the metal and no brakes.

And nobody is screaming about it.

pax

Sometimes paranoia's just having all the facts. -- William S. Burroughs

Tamara
March 1, 2003, 12:57 PM
Another reason not to fly

Like I needed one beyond the mandatory cavity search?

Folks, at some point you are going to have to decide what indignities you are willing to suffer, and at what point you are going to yell "I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it any more!".

"My job requires me to fly!" So your job is more important than your dignity?

Remember, acquiescence is seen as consent by these people; the absence of dogs and torches on our rulers' front porches is taken as approval.

Topgun
March 1, 2003, 02:54 PM
Stop griping. We may soon get some cool armbands and jackboots.

and the trains may run on time.

Drjones
March 1, 2003, 05:55 PM
We're honestly closing in on the day when we may have to use our 2A, huh? :(

Sir Galahad
March 1, 2003, 06:07 PM
I wouldn't look to that too eagerly. The last civil war we had bled us white. The examples of Bosnia and any other place undergoing civil strife is sobering. Not saying we should march gleefully into tyranny, but we've a long way to go before shooting lots of fellow Americans should be an option.

Drjones
March 1, 2003, 06:11 PM
Not saying we should march gleefully into tyranny, but we've a long way to go before shooting lots of fellow Americans should be an option.


I sure hope so.

But then I read stuff like this, and suddenly, I'm not so sure anymore... :(

Makes me wanna buy more guns...

MitchSchaft
March 1, 2003, 06:17 PM
Whats a FOID?

TN does have its advantages :neener:.

Sir Galahad
March 1, 2003, 10:20 PM
Dr. Jones, the worst thing imaginable is civil war. We are blessed in this nation to have not had one recently, say, after the advent of aircraft and such. One can easily see that if such were to happen, any number of nations would seize the opportunity to come in and interfere or take over. So far, nothing has happened that warrants Americans shooting other Americans. If it ever comes down to that, the horror of it might never be forgotten. Once a society as varied in peoples as ours fractures, it may never be healed again. Our common bond as Americans is the mortar to hold our structure intact. Without that, the whole house falls apart. Civil war is not just one side shoting the other side. It's the innocents caught in the crossfire between factions. It's about starvation. It's about the unspeakable.

Drjones
March 2, 2003, 03:01 PM
Sir Galahad, a very eloquent post.

I do agree with you completely.

I just have become very concerned with our wonderful country and the direction it is headed in.

I think perhaps I suffer from a bit of "the sky is falling" syndrome, which I think is understandable when all one hears about is the bad stuff.

Make no mistake: I would not ever want, nor hope for a war of any sort, least of all a civil war in this country. I do hope that we never have to see a civil war.

Regardless, thank you for your post.

Intune
March 2, 2003, 07:07 PM
Compare the indignities, taxation and intrusion that our government foists upon its citizens today. Now go back a couple hundred years. Were our forefathers more or less oppressed by England’s king before they said enough is enough? Hmm…

TallPine
March 2, 2003, 07:29 PM
Were our forefathers more or less oppressed by England’s king before they said enough is enough? Hmm…

Read the list of injuries in the Declaration of Independence. Virtually all of those are true to a greater extent today.

Not sure about inciting the savages against us, tho ... :confused:

LostOneToo
March 2, 2003, 07:54 PM
Everyone should start buying only one-way tickets and paying cash......just overload the system!!!!!
Myself, I'm holding out for a job as a Bus-Marshal on Greyhound.:D

Bainx
March 2, 2003, 08:08 PM
"...a job as a Bus-Marshal on Greyhound."

Dear God, what a scream!:D

Betty
March 2, 2003, 08:39 PM
Just this morning mom asked me if I would be interested in going back to Viet Nam with her. I was torn between the "yes, I want to visit my folks" to "no, I don't want to be unarmed in a third world country."

I topped off the "no, because" list with this topic, and have made up my mind...

:scrutiny: :barf:

SemperFi83
March 3, 2003, 03:28 PM
"One of these days the talking will be over and the citizenry of the United States will decide whether or not to remain free."
- Dan W. Shoemaker

tetchaje1
March 3, 2003, 03:40 PM
Good points, all.

Vote with your pocketbooks, people. Do not fly, and let your CongressCritters know why.

If you have to fly because of your business, charter private aircraft to ferry you around. It isn't that much more expensive, and you can forgo the dehumanizing cavity checks required to get onto a plane these days. Basically, companies that have private jets sublet their aircraft for the retun leg of their journey because they don't want to pay hangar fees waiting for X or Y executive to finish his week conference. You pay marignally more for airfare (I think it is around 20% more than business class) and you get to fly on a smaller plane without the airport hassles.

We are not the proles... :fire:

Sindawe
March 3, 2003, 03:50 PM
Anybody got any links or lead for such? I'm looking at having to fly in the forseable future to visit elderly Grandmother, and if I can at all avoid the commercial airlines I'll gladly pay a premium to do so. Otherwise it may be takke three weeks off work and ride-cross country on the scooter.

tetchaje1
March 3, 2003, 03:58 PM
Sindawe,
I saw it on a documentary about post-9/11, post-Homeland Security air travel a little while ago.

I'll see if I can drum up some links for you...

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