Wisconsin Hunter Murders Show Need For Effective Assault Weapons Ban—VPC


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El Rojo
November 23, 2004, 01:27 AM
http://www.vpc.org/press/0411wisc.htm

Wisconsin Hunter Murders Show Need For Effective Assault Weapons Ban—Armed Hunters No Match For SKS Assault Rifle

President Has Power to Fully Ban Import of All Foreign-Made Assault Rifles Such as SKSs And AK-47s

Washington, DC—SKS assault rifles like the one reported to have been used to murder five hunters and wound three others in Wisconsin over the weekend are a primary threat to police, the Violence Policy Center (VPC) reported today. So far in 2004, at least six law enforcement officers have been slain by SKSs. In the wake of the shooting, the VPC called on President George W. Bush today to use the Administration's executive authority over firearm imports to fully ban the import of all foreign-made assault rifles. Such an action would not require Congressional approval. The Bush Administration has specifically authorized the importation of SKS assault rifles from both Yugoslavia and Albania.

"Armed hunters were no match for one person firing an SKS assault rifle," said Kristen Rand, VPC legislative director. "This sad incident illustrates why the SKS is also a leading cop-killing rifle in America today."

Rand pointed out that the SKS assault rifle was not covered by the recently expired 1994 federal assault weapons ban. The VPC criticized the 1994 law as inadequate and favors enactment of a tougher version of the law that would ban the SKS and many other assault weapons that easily slipped through the old law's loopholes.

"Even though the 1994 law was easily circumvented by the gun industry, Congress has failed to move on a strong replacement law. President Bush could, with the stroke of a pen, tighten the import ban and stop the import of all foreign-made assault rifles," Rand said.

She noted that both the President's father, former-President George H.W. Bush, and former-President William J. Clinton stopped the import of hundreds of thousands of assault weapons by using their executive authority under firearms import and trade laws. Under the current Bush Administration, specific foreign-made assault rifles, including some SKSs, have returned to the marketplace.

For more information on the SKS assault rifle and the use of it and other assault weapons against law enforcement personnel, please visit www.vpc.org.

:cuss: :fire:

And then go to this link. http://www.vpc.org/graphics/sksfactsheetfinal.pdf

Note Kristin Rand's e-mail: krand@vpc.org

And my e-mail response.

A concern about the SKS.

The bodies of those six hunters in Wisconsin are not even cold yet and you have the audacity to use them as part of your political game? Your rush to use this as part of your propaganda and bring grief to these victims’ families is beyond comprehension. You state that armed hunters are no match for the SKS, yet only one of those victims was armed. It was one rifle vs. one rifle. Of course you couldn't even wait for the real story to come out before you had your press release out. How you look at yourself in the mirror I can't even fathom. When will your vicious organization stop using the blood of these innocent victims for your own shrewd political gain? I hope one of the families of these victims starts publicly asking why you are using their deceased relatives to further your political agenda. I know a letter to the editor of my local paper will be asking my community what kind of uncaring animals you are.

El Rojo
California

And my letter to the editor of the local paper.

I would like to respond to the Violence Policy Center’s (http://www.vpc.org/) recent press release about the tragic murder of six hunters in Wisconsin. For those of you unaware of the VPC’s mission, they seek to use propaganda and scare tactics to further their anti-gun agenda.

If you don’t believe me, go to their website and read their latest press release less than two days after the murders. I quote, “Wisconsin Hunter Murders Show Need For Effective Assault Weapons Ban—Armed Hunters No Match For SKS Assault Rifle.” "Armed hunters were no match for one person firing an SKS assault rifle," said Kristen Rand, VPC legislative director.

The VPC did not even wait long enough to learn that only one hunter was armed, not all eight. The murderer’s use of an SKS is insignificant when we find that he ambushed one armed hunter and seven unarmed people. Further the SKS is not fully automatic (definition of an assault rifle) nor was it covered under the expired federal assault weapons ban.

What if your family members had been murdered while participating in a past-time they loved and enjoyed and some radical lobbyists started using your family’s loss and suffering as venom in their shrewd political game? The VPC is hoping their press release will spur you to action and you might donate more money to their cause. I hope you contact them with your contempt instead.

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Mulliga
November 23, 2004, 01:58 AM
Meh. Unfortunately, I was expecting this kind of crap from the VPC sooner rather than later. :barf:

Solo
November 23, 2004, 02:01 AM
Most amusing, considering the weapon used wasn't even an assault weapon....

P95Carry
November 23, 2004, 02:15 AM
VPC - grabbing again at straws and inaccurate information - it'd seem.

What else do we expect from them? :rolleyes:

Sindawe
November 23, 2004, 02:24 AM
The blood is not even cold, and already the VPC is dancing in it.

:cuss: :cuss: :cuss: :cuss:

Harry Tuttle
November 23, 2004, 07:53 AM
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/s...02496552&EDATE=

Wisconsin Advocates Call on State Lawmakers to Pass Comprehensive Statewide
Assault Weapons Ban

MILWAUKEE, Nov. 22 /PRNewswire/ -- The Wisconsin Anti-Violence Effort
extends their deepest sympathy to the families and victims of the horrifying
and deadly shooting in Sawyer County, where a man used an SKS semi-automatic
assault rifle to gun down five hunters and wound three others. This tragedy
demonstrates the urgent need for an effective federal ban on military style
assault weapons. But since President Bush and Congress allowed the federal
assault weapons ban to expire in September of this year and seem disinterested
in passing a new law, Wisconsin lawmakers should, in the meantime, pass a
comprehensive statewide assault weapons ban. Reports suggested that the
shooting occurred after an argument escalated when hunters found 36-year-old
Chai Soua Vang using a tree stand belonging to someone else.
SKS military style, semi-automatic assault rifles, like the one used in
yesterday's tragic shooting, are the most common assault rifles used to kill
law enforcement offices in the United States, according to the Violence Policy
Center, a Washington, D.C. based think tank. In 2004, six law enforcement
officers in the United States have been gunned down by shooters using SKS
assault rifles.
"Over the years, we have seen that these military-style, semi-automatic
assault rifles are the guns of choice for cop-killers and mass murderers,"
said Jeri Bonavia, Executive Director of the Wisconsin Anti-Violence Effort.
"There is no good reason for hunting with a spray-fire gun, capable of 'hosing
down' a target area. Military-style guns, such as the SKS, do not belong on
our streets or in our fields and woods."
The Bush Administration has specifically authorized the importation of
some SKS assault rifles. The Bush Administration's regulatory power over
firearm imports means the President has the power and should ban the import of
all foreign-made assault rifles. Such an action would not require
Congressional approval. President Bush's predecessors, former-President
George H. W. Bush and former-President William J. Clinton, stopped the import
of hundreds of thousands of assault weapons by using their executive authority
under firearms import and trade laws.
"Since President Bush and members of Congress refused to protect Americans
by banning assault weapons, it is urgent that Wisconsin lawmakers take action
now," Bonavia added.
In September, Assemblywoman Christine Sinicki (20th District) announced
she would introduce statewide legislation to ban assault weapons in Wisconsin
in the wake of the expiration of the federal ban. "After this horrendous
shooting, it is more clear than ever that the Wisconsin State Legislature must
act now to ban assault weapons," Sinicki said.
There is overwhelming support for banning assault weapons from law
enforcement and from the citizens of Wisconsin, including 73% of likely voters
and 66% of gun owners in the state.


SOURCE Wisconsin Anti-Violence Effort

griz
November 23, 2004, 08:40 AM
:mad: Even for them that is unbelievable. Good job El Rojo in those letters.

foghornl
November 23, 2004, 08:50 AM
What major point the "Mass Media" VPC, et al apparently are not able to grasp is that while the SKS shooter posessed the will and desire to take human life, the deer hunters did not. The hunters [I am guessing here] have not been in a position to have to 'fire shots in anger', as the veteran obviously had.


p.s. Buy up all the SKS's you can find and afford.

Spot77
November 23, 2004, 09:07 AM
Gun control is the biggest economic boost for the gun industry.

I feel the need to add a few more sks's to the collection already.

RandyB
November 23, 2004, 09:23 AM
Our local paper wrote that the SKS is a "favored deer hunting rifle". Ok, sure. I have some serious doubts that this guy was really hunting any deer when he decided to hunt hunters. Another reason that I never go to the woods without a gun. It going to make things interesting around the US when hunters walk up on hunters from now on. :fire:

molonlabe
November 23, 2004, 11:49 AM
This whole thing reeks to me. It just dosn't make sense to me. Unless their are inaccuracies.

He was said to be with two other people.

SMMAssociates
November 23, 2004, 02:47 PM
Seems to me that while an SKS might not be a particularly good choice for deer hunting, given that you can take one with anything from about .223 up with a little luck, I don't see the problem in using one.

'Course, forget about long ranges....

Odds are that this guy had one, and decided to get some meat for the family. When challenged, he went off.... Hmong men are very strongly into the "machismo" attitude. (Otherwise, I'm told, they're fine people. Most of those in the US were re-settled here after Vietnam because they were not safe from the NV government due to their helping the US.) (Not, mind you, that he should have gone off like that....)

A friend tells me that a .45ACP is legal for deer around here. I don't think the deer would appreciate it, but it ought to make the anti's nuts. :neener:

It is kind of funny that most of the details of this case are still unknown but the anti's are using it already. Reminds me of the idiot (probably Schumer) who was jumping up and down for gun control while the World Trade Center was still falling down. :fire:

("not a hunter" - no problem here with table hunting or herd management. I just don't do it. My idea of "roughing it" is a cheap motel.... :) )

Sam Adams
November 23, 2004, 03:44 PM
""Armed hunters were no match for one person firing an SKS assault rifle," said Kristen Rand...."

GMAFB. Really. The type of arms used often has nothing to do with lethality, mainly because a gun or other weapon must be used to be effective against an actual assault. What happens when soldiers are ambushed by an enemy who is similarly equipped? Guess what, the ambushed soldiers lose. It has nothing to do with their weapons, and everything to do with preparedness. Those hunters weren't expecting some wack job to start shooting them, so they were psychologically disarmed before the incident even started. The guy could've used a .45 and probably had the same result.

As usual, the statist gun-grabbers don't have a clue.

Andrew Rothman
November 23, 2004, 05:27 PM
Hmong men are very strongly into the "machismo" attitude. (Otherwise, I'm told, they're fine people....

Uh. not really. Sounds like you've never met a Hmong man, so how would you reach this conclusion?

And how would you like hearing, "White men are very into guns to make up for their sexual inadequacies"?

Please don't generalize -- especially when the generalization appears to be without basis.

El Rojo
November 23, 2004, 05:30 PM
The Bakersfield Californian (local paper) called me back today to verify I wrote the letter. Hopefully it gets published. If and when it does I will post a link and I am most certainly going to send the VPC a link to my article.

Waitone
November 23, 2004, 05:41 PM
Have you noticed how the terminology has changed since the assault weapons ban died. Use to be the issue was "assault weapons" in spite of the fact an assault weapon has never been found in captivity. Now the terminology seems to have morphed to "assault rifle." Never mind the weapon of discussion does not meet the definition.

It is almost like a fax from VPC went out and said, "OK, change to rifle from weapon."

Congratulations gunners! Once again you just shifted the debate.

Hemi Magnum
November 23, 2004, 05:48 PM
El Rojo,

Well written. Hopefully it will get published.

Zedicus
November 23, 2004, 05:56 PM
There is a saying that fits the VPC to a "T"

"Like Flies to Dung!"


Friggin Vultures! :fire: :barf:

SMMAssociates
November 23, 2004, 05:57 PM
Matt:

I've never knowingly met a Hmong man. At least none who were wearing a sign or something like that.

However, a good friend taught College in WI for a while, with a fairly large Hmong population nearby, and had more than a few in his classes.

I have no doubt as to the veracity of his comments.

Which does not excuse this particular gentleman's behavior in any way.

(My friend also taught in WV. No problems there except for some neighbor kids who thought it was OK to walk into his kitchen an graze the fridge as long as the door was unlocked. :eek: Nice kids, but.... He also taught in GA. I think that's where the school passed out laptop computers to the students, and he spent the next week trying to unscramble the mess the kids made of 'em by installing ICQ. :( )

Andrew Rothman
November 23, 2004, 06:57 PM
Well, then suffice to say that "macho" is not in the top 100 adjectives I'd use if forced to generalize about Hmong men.

I have no idea what your teacher friend experienced, but I'd recommend caution in repeating his subjective observations as established fact.

People are, first of all, people. This particular guy was also a US Army veteran. His ethnicity certainly doesn't determine his behavior, although it may influence it.

Likewise, his ethnicity may have had an effect on how a group of <sarcasm>drunk, white, racist, rural, gun-totin' rednecks</sarcasm> treated him.

See? Stereotyping is bad.

Standing Wolf
November 23, 2004, 07:25 PM
...the President's father, former-President George H.W. Bush, and former-President William J. Clinton stopped the import of hundreds of thousands of assault weapons by using their executive authority under firearms import and trade laws.

That Kerry creature probably still doesn't understand why America's duck hunters didn't vote for him.

Monkeyleg
November 23, 2004, 07:28 PM
"So far in 2004, at least six law enforcement officers have been slain by SKSs."

This number really jumps out at me. How many LEO's in total have been killed in the line of duty this year? 52 were killed last year. If we count this November as a full month, and the rate of 4.333 per month is the same, that means that 12.6% of of the officers killed this year were shot with SKS's.

Given that in 2003, 10% of the officers killed were shot with rifles, methinks the VPC is playing fast and loose with numbers.

But, then again, what else is new? :barf:

Silent-Snail
November 23, 2004, 09:00 PM
After reading the article all I can say is, BEHOLD THE POWER OF STUPID.

El Rojo
November 24, 2004, 01:06 AM
Sorry, we just don't have the time to read all the boring missives from all the cranks who write in but thanks for sharing!This is seriously her response. The nice thing is I know she read it because I titled it, "A concern about the SKS". So I know she read it! Score one for me in this petty game!

I really would like to teach these people a lesson and more than just getting my letter published in the local paper. Any ideas? Spamming her e-mail doesn't seem very High Roadish and spam blocking software helps soften the blow of that tactic.

Waitone
November 24, 2004, 08:44 AM
Find out her editor's name. Then proceed to determine who owns the rag. Followed by the one largest advertiser.

Write a letter to all of the above recounting her editorial position in the "news" piece, your comments, and your response.

"News" is business and its time for the karma of business to be imposed on those who think it doesn't exist.

Dr.Who
November 24, 2004, 09:38 AM
I'm not supprised to the response... Keep in mind that your note/letter does not support their vision of the problem. They believe that it is the gun that kills, not the finger on the tigger! :banghead:

Borachon
November 24, 2004, 12:04 PM
Let the VPC talk. The rifle is being identified as a "Saiga SKS" which means it is probably a Saiga rifle. Let VPC make idiots of themselves by going on and on about the SKS. When it is revealed that the rifle is a Saiga, they'll look like they are playing fast and loose with the truth. Which, of course, they are.

El Rojo
November 24, 2004, 12:13 PM
Kristin Rand is the VPC legislative director and she is the one who made that response. I talked to the newspaper and they are going to publish my article. When they do, I am going to send Kristin another e-mail, but this time I will tell her that the local paper did a good article on the VPC and I will attach the link. Then she will be feeling all high and mighty until she reads me trashing her in the local paper. I will do a follow up e-mail and not fein my loyalty to the VPC, but tell them, don't screw with El Rojo.

RavenVT100
November 24, 2004, 01:55 PM
Be sure to let the newspaper know that the rifle the VPC is railing against wasn't even the one that was used in the attack. The Saiga is simply the Russian analog of any of the Remington or Browning autoloaders that are geared toward hunting.

The VPC released their little burst of proaganda before the police report even came out. I wonder what they'll do now.

Dbl0Kevin
November 24, 2004, 02:08 PM
Something doesn't add up here if it was indeed a Saiga. I've seen several places where the guy fired 20 rounds and was found with his 20 round mag empty. I've never seen a 20 round mag for a Saiga. :confused:

Bubbles
November 24, 2004, 02:24 PM
The Saiga Sporter "Can be easily modified to use AK mags" according to:

http://www.sksman.com/access/saiga.html

benEzra
November 24, 2004, 03:24 PM
The Saiga Sporter "Can be easily modified to use AK mags"
IF you add enough U.S. made parts to make the rifle 18 USC 922(r) compliant. Otherwise you commit a Federal felony, IIRC.

Something doesn't add up here if it was indeed a Saiga. I've seen several places where the guy fired 20 rounds and was found with his 20 round mag empty. I've never seen a 20 round mag for a Saiga.
There are 20-round AK mags out there, but according to the police report Vang stopped and reloaded his magazine with more ammunition. So he was probably using a standard politically-correct Saiga 10-rounder, not a double-stack AK magazine.

It is also possible he shot 10 rounds and changed magazines; many hunters that hunt with detachable-mag firearms carry a spare magazine.

Master Blaster
November 24, 2004, 03:42 PM
Hey MATT PAYNE I'm really glad to see that you are against offensive stereotyping of minorities like the Hmong, way to go!!!!!

Attention -- American Jews: "Never Again" will not be enforced by prayer, petitions or pacifism.

But perhaps, given your devotion to diversity and not offending minorities, you ought to consider removing your little signature above, cause some of us Jews here on the site might find it to be stereotypical and quite offensive.

Thanks Dude.

Yooper
November 24, 2004, 03:54 PM
Yup, I agree, I want to see that assault rifle put behind bars immediately and for the rest of its life.
They could prevent future occurrances of the same type by banning Minnesota hunters from Wisconsin, by not allowing Hmong hunters, or by doing away deer season completely. All make the same amount of sense.

SMMAssociates
November 24, 2004, 04:03 PM
I hope you guys weren't offended by my comments about my friend and the Hmong.... I can't say "some of my friends" 'cause I don't think I've ever met one. My buddy felt that they were otherwise fine people, but had an attitude that precluded getting much done in class. :)

Attention -- American Jews: "Never Again" will not be enforced by prayer, petitions or pacifism. Hm.... Until the kid came back from terrorizing her aunt in TX last summer and made me wear a big TEXAS belt buckle, I'd been wearing one with a picture of Masada and "Never Again" on it.... (The kid's 18, and a fairly good shot.) Lot's of people commented on it, mostly positively, over the years.

That quote isn't offensive to me. I doubt if anybody who hangs here would find it offensive. It's a warning to those who aren't willing to protect their rights. Calling your Rabbi instead of 911 isn't going to do a lot of good in a car crash or home invasion. (Not that 911's a lot of help with the latter, but....)

I've got a pretty thick skin, so perhaps I'm just not seeing it as offensive.

(And, yes, I'm Jewish.... :D )

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