Is it necessary to flare a 1911's ejection port for reliability?


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hnm201
November 23, 2004, 07:08 PM
It seems like the first cut that everyone makes on their GI milspec 1911s is the good ol flare o' the ejection port. Is this really necessary for 100% reliablity?

My springer non-GI "milspec" (now in someone else's safe) came with a stock flared ejection port, yet the brass practically dribbled out of it until I reshaped and tensioned the extractor per Tuner's instructions. Also, all of the brass ejected from this gun dinked off the slide just behind the flared ejection port and spun off it like a spring board. When I asked both of the local gunsmiths about it, the collective answer was "no one knows why 1911s do that." Heck, and one of these guys is as old as John Moses Browning himself!

btw: I watched a guy shoot his brand new para-ordnance LTC (the one with the mongo-extractor) at the range yesterday morning. Sometimes the brass flew up. Sometimes it flew sideways. Somes it just kind a rolled out. Sometimes it spun in air and sometimes it sailed like dead weight. He didn't have any stoppages, but I swear, rarely did two ejected cases' trajectories look the same!

I am asking because I am thinking of buying a springer GI milspec locally. Assuming that it functions reliably with remington JHPS and Golden Sabers, I am planning on carrying it. I don't want to modify the gun. If a flared ejection port really adds that much to reliability then I'll just wait two months and buy a Colt NRM. However, the aesthetics of the GI milspec and the feel of its short GI trigger appeal and the pracitcality of its parkerized finish appeal to me more. I could just get another non-GI springer milspec but I've already done that once and had a bad experience. Sights fell off. Grips screw bushings stripped out. I just don't want to deal with the headaches of sending a gun back to the factory.

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stans
November 23, 2004, 07:13 PM
Lowering and flaring the port does little or nothing for reliability, it just puts fewer dings and dents in the brass for the reloader.

Dave Sample
November 23, 2004, 07:21 PM
"Lowering the port is a good thing" as Martha would say. It is a reliabilty issue with me. The "Roll Over Notch" (Coltspeak) is not. It started on the Gold Cups as a wadcutter feature so the brass would clear easier with the light weight recoil spring that came with the guns in those days. I think the look neat and have done them on all of the guns I built beciuase I like the look. I thought the Colt touch was pretty ugly so I do it my way. It tends to leave fewer marks on the empty brass, too.

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/2872874/35071614.jpg

A little less on Eagle 2

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/2872874/48320506.jpg

It is just a matter of taste really.

hnm201
November 23, 2004, 07:33 PM
I certainly agree that a flared ejection port looks neat when accompanied by other modern accoutrements: novaks, upswept tail grip safety, forward slide serrations, carbon fiber grips, etc. However, I drive a 20yr old volvo with a little rust around the edges and I am wearing a hairy irish sweater that is almost as old. Aesthetically, ugly works for me. In fact, some would argue that I cultivate it. So, if I can't convince myself that I need the flared port to keep the gun running, dented brass be-damned, then it's GI flavor for me.

Oh..those are very nice pics Dave. Thanks!

Jim K
November 23, 2004, 07:43 PM
Most of the playing with ejection ports is done by folks who don't know how, or don't want to bother, to get the ejector and extractor right so the brass goes where it should go.

Jim

mete
November 23, 2004, 08:35 PM
If you get a light load it might help since the case rotates to the 3 o'clock position and hits the slide and must have enough energy to go up and over the port . In a properly designed gun like the P7 the extractor centers on the ejection port and the ejector is opposite the extractor.The case never touches the slide .

Old Fuff
November 23, 2004, 11:03 PM
Jim as usual, is right. The model 1911 design evolved over a number of years. Many experimental models were built, then tested and then changed based on the results of the previous trials. By 1911 the extractor/ejector issues were resolved and cartridges cases managed to make it out through the standard port.

If you have a pistol that has brass smears on the lower side of the ejection port, and both the extractor and ejector are correctly set up, it could be advisable to slightly lower the port. However this needn't be done until there is evidence of a problem. To many modifications are made simply for the purpose of making them.

1911Tuner
November 24, 2004, 05:36 AM
Jim Keenan said:

Most of the playing with ejection ports is done by folks who don't know how, or don't want to bother, to get the ejector and extractor right so the brass goes where it should go.
_____________________

Yep...And many don't realize..or believe, for that matter...that the extractor
can be tweaked to change the timing and direction of the release.

Cheers!

ken grant
November 24, 2004, 07:13 AM
Tuner, when you have time and feel in the mode to write some more of your good information on 1911's, please do a sticky on tuning the extractor to direct brass where you want it to go.
Also,please tell if you start with the ejector or the extractor. How do you decide which to tune first?
This is one area I see many opinions on and not many agree where to start.

HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO ALL!!!!!!!!!!!

GOD BLESS OUR TROOPS!!!!!!!!!

ken grant
November 24, 2004, 07:15 AM
Tuner, when you have time and feel in the mode to write some more of your good information on 1911's, please do a sticky on tuning the extractor to direct brass where you want it to go.
Also,please tell if you start with the ejector or the extractor. How do you decide which to tune first?
This is one area I see many opinions on and not many agree where to start.

HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO ALL!!!!!!!!!!!

GOD BLESS OUR TROOPS!!!!!!!!!

ken grant
November 24, 2004, 07:18 AM
Tuner, when you have time and feel in the mode to write some more of your good information on 1911's, please do a sticky on tuning the extractor to direct brass where you want it to go.
Also,please tell if you start with the ejector or the extractor. How do you decide which to tune first?
This is one area I see many opinions on and not many agree where to start.

HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO ALL!!!!!!!!!!!

GOD BLESS OUR TROOPS!!!!!!!!!

ken grant
November 24, 2004, 07:36 AM
Tuner, when you have time and feel in the mode to write some more of your good information on 1911's, please do a sticky on tuning the extractor to direct brass where you want it to go.
Also,please tell if you start with the ejector or the extractor. How do you decide which to tune first?
This is one area I see many opinions on and not many agree where to start.

HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO ALL!!!!!!!!!!!

GOD BLESS OUR TROOPS!!!!!!!!!

1911Tuner
November 24, 2004, 08:15 AM
Whew! Big order, Ken...It'd take a lotta bandwidth to explain everything,
and the tweaker is probably still lookin' at some trial and error, since no two guns are alike. It'd be easier to troubleshoot the ejection pattern and go from there.

Might be easier to start with a fresh extractor and arrange a demonstration
by doin' one thing at a time to the extractor and observing what the effect is...and progress to ruinin' the extractor by makin' it do things with the brass that it's not supposed to do.

The ejector is also a player in the game. Depends on how high or low it contacts the case...How far to port or how close to center...Angle...All of it.

Finally...There are no guarantees that I can take a given extractor/ejector/gun combination and put the brass exactly where I want it on the ground. Too many variables to work with...but I can get it out of the port at 2 O'Clock like it should be...and I don't need to lower the port or flare the front or cut a rollover notch at the back to do it. If I do lower a port,
it's not much...maybe on the order of .015 inch or so...and that's mainly just a little edge in gettin' the brass to clear the port. If I flare the front, it's just for live-round ejection in pistols with reduced slide travel and extended ejectors, like the Commanders and Officer's Models. I do place a good bit of importance on reliable live-round ejection in a serious gun or one that has an extended ejector that can make contact with a primer and set it off during the ejection process. It can happen, and did on a few of the older Commanders that had the pointy ejectors. I won't go into detail on my own experience...but I will say that it caused me a few very long, dragged out
seconds while I tried to determine whether or not the pain in my left hand
was due to the fact that I had somehow shot myself while doing a live round
hand-over-port ejection. The longest few seconds were spent trying to force myself to look at my hand... :eek:

Come on back up and we'll have a go at it.

ken grant
November 24, 2004, 09:33 AM
My Nornco Compact is ejecting O.K.,really slinging the cases out.
A lot of the cases have a dent about 2/3 of the way up the brass and the dent runs across the case. Guess the slide is hiting it at some time.
Do you have a suggestion on how to cure this?
Also, a friend has a new Springfield WW2 repo that is doing the same thing and he wants to try and cure it. It works O.K.,but dents the brass

1911Tuner
November 24, 2004, 09:42 AM
Howdy Ken,

Yep..Sounds like slide contact. Which way are they goin'? Forward? Backward? Straight out to the side? You should be able to see brass marks on the slide right at the edge of the port somewhere.

ken grant
November 24, 2004, 10:33 AM
Mostly to the right rear with a few to the front

ACORN
November 24, 2004, 12:30 PM
Ken after you get your Mil Spec tuned you might want to get your computer looked at. Looks like it went full-auto and fired a 4 shot burst. :neener:

45auto
November 24, 2004, 01:00 PM
I have two Colts, one flared, the other not!. Both eject cases the same with no denting.

They are lowered(factory) and have extended ejectors, replaced the standard, and the empties stopped hitting me in the head...I'm dumb enough without additional smacks to the head. ;)

1911Tuner
November 24, 2004, 01:23 PM
Ken say:

Mostly to the right rear with a few to the front

Tuner ask:

Are they comin' out the port at 1, 2, or 3 O'Clock? Any brass marks around the port? Early release usually gets booted backward by the slide in recoil.
Late release boots it forward, and the cases usually spin like a whirly-bird.
Generally happens when the cases eject straight out at 3 O'Clock.

Standin' by...

ken grant
November 24, 2004, 01:46 PM
Early release? Late release? How do you change the release timing on an extractor? :confused:

1911Tuner
November 24, 2004, 02:27 PM
Ken asks, incensed:

Early release? Late release? How do you change the release timing on an extractor?
__________________

Ejector length is one way...Long ejector=early release. Extractor tension
is another way. Heavy tension=later release. Extractor hook length is one more. Long hook=late release. Short hook=earlier release. Stepping up or down on the recoil spring rate can affect it too. Generally, a too-early release with backward riccochet is helped by a slightly heavier recoil spring to
slow the slide and give the brass a little more time to get clear of the port.
Late release with forward riccochet is helped by a ligher spring to keep the slide to the rear a heartbeat longer.

I'm thinkin' that you might have early release. I reduced your hook length to about cut the middle of tolerance...about .033-.-34 if I remember correctly.
Also IIRC, when we test-fired it, the brass was exiting at 2 O'Clock, so the ejector shape is probaby okay. You can try shortening the ejector just a bit...maybe .010 inch...and make a lot of difference. You'll have to study it for a few minutes, and retain the angle that's on it. Careful now...Don't get carried away. Cover the magwell with a cloth to keep the filings out, and
do trial and error. If ya go too short, the ejection will be erratic.

Just FWIW...The light dents won't hurt anything for reloading the brass. As long as the gun is kickin' the brass well clear of the port and not beanin' ya between the eyes...do ya really wanna dink with it? When you come back this way, we can make time to go to the range and fine-tune it. We just didn't have time before. I was mainly interested in gettin' the FTE cured.

Uh...Wanna sell that Nork? :D I kinda liked it... :cool:

sm
November 24, 2004, 02:43 PM
Yeah what Tuner, Mr. Keenan, Old Fuff....said.

Ran too many rds through various slabsides without the lowered and flared ports with NO problems.

Can't prove it , but I think the character marks* makes these slabsides more dependable.

* scratches , worn bluing, ...etc.

1911Tuner
November 24, 2004, 02:50 PM
sm said:

Ran too many rds through various slabsides without the lowered and flared ports with NO problems.
_____________________

Yep...Neither JMB, Colt's engineers, nor the Ordnance Department were worried about reloadin' the brass when they designed the guns. I'm of the old school of thought on ejection. As long as it clears the port in time to feed the next round, and I don't get whacked between the eyes or get hot brass down the back of my shirt...I don't give a rip if it all goes in a 5-gallon bucket 6 feet from the gun or into the next county. :D

Dave Sample
November 24, 2004, 04:33 PM
I agree with Tuner and O.F. I just do all these things for fun and they have nothing to do with the 1911 putting all the empties in a three foot circle off of my right shoulder. That is just pure dumb luck!

Dave Sample
November 24, 2004, 06:50 PM
http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/5798744/74416413.jpg

Pure

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/5798744/74416395.jpg

Dumb

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/5798744/74415902.jpg

Luck

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/5798744/74415885.jpg

1911Tuner
November 24, 2004, 06:56 PM
Cap'n! Your barrel is lockin' on the link!!! :eek:

Dave Sample
November 24, 2004, 06:57 PM
http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/5798744/74415573.jpg

Is

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/5798744/74415917.jpg

All

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/5798744/74415544.jpg

You

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/5798744/74415514.jpg

Need!

Dave Sample
November 24, 2004, 06:59 PM
Just Lucky, I guess, Tuner.

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/5798744/74416429.jpg

stans
November 24, 2004, 09:16 PM
Locking up on the link, must be a Colt. :scrutiny:

Dave Sample
November 25, 2004, 02:30 PM
It is a stock Officers Model Barrel installed in EAGLE 2. The lock up is great for a stock barrel and I guess you did not notice the marks on the lower lugs where it touches the slide stop pin when in battery. There were many reliablity "Clews" in those pictures, but you may need those new glasses to spot them. The gun shoots +P's 100% and there is no sign of battering anywhere. Just the normal rub marks where the gun finishes fitting itself. It does not like wimp loads but I did not build it as a target gun for semi wadcutters. It feeds Hydra-Shoks and GI ball just fine.

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/2872874/48320506.jpg

WE are doing another Short Sword that we put an Ed Brown barrel in and it was about a 10 hour job. It is a very high end gun though, so it was worth it. It should be in the Shot Show.

1911Tuner
November 25, 2004, 02:55 PM
>>and I guess you did not notice the marks on the lower lugs where it touches the slide stop pin when in battery<<
____________________

Yep. I seen'em. What's the round count on that there pistole' Cap'n?

Jammer Six
November 25, 2004, 06:30 PM
Cap'n! Your barrel is lockin' on the link!!!

'Tuner, what happens when a weapon locks up on the link?

>>and I guess you did not notice the marks on the lower lugs where it touches the slide stop pin when in battery<

And what happens when the lower lugs touch the slide stop pin?

I thought they were supposed to ride on the pin... :confused:

1911Tuner
November 25, 2004, 07:25 PM
Here ya go Jammer. Put on a pot of coffee and settle back.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=56380

On the second picture...the one of the barrel feet, viewed from the front of the barrel...it looks like the pin is beatin' on the tips of the feet, and they look kinda deformed. Hard to say from the pictures, so I don't know if Dave has actually cut a light, secondary radius in the feet to help support the lockup...but the crosspin is stopping near the tips, where they're not as sturdy as they are down in the radius...or what I lovingly call "The Cradle."
Stopping the slide on the tips of the feet leads to damage much earlier if the slide is allowed to go to battery on an empty chamber...Not as critical as long as the gun is feeding ammo.

Locking on the link is pretty common in factory ordnance spec guns...though Springfield has gotten much better lately with correctly fitted links on correctly spec-ed lugs...and as long as the lockup isn't tight, won't do any real harm for a while, other than peen the tips of the feet backward and delay linkdown timing to some degree. From here, it looks like
the link is locking the barrel vertically about a 16th of an inch.

Long-linking is a way to get more lug engagement in the slide, but generally works against accuracy because the barrel is supported on one center point instead of being solidly supported on two sides...as in when it's locked on the lower lug. The link is NOT supposed to provide vertical lock to any great degree...The function of the link is to unlock the barrel. It also acts as a sort of guide to keep it tracking in a fairly straight line, but that's incidental.
It also has to unlock the barrel at the right time...and the center-to-center length controls that.

Locking hard on the link also stresses the link pin hole in the barrel lug, and
can often lead to it wallowing out into an egg-shape...creating slop and further delaying linkdown timing. Many factory guns do lock on the link to some degree, and allows the gun to function well for a long time. Forcing the
barrel into tight vertical lock with the link will cause problems sooner rather than later. Delayed linkdown timing can damage the locking lugs on the barrel and in the slide if the barrel doesn't get down out of the way in time.

A too-short link can prevent the barrel from unlocking at all, if it's short enough...but for different reasons. The short link starts to unlock the barrel
while the slidestop pin is still under the lug. The lug and pin get one another into a bind, and the link is too short to let the lug off the pin. Damaged or sheared locking lugs result...or even a cracked slide.

Hope this helps...

Jammer Six
November 25, 2004, 08:44 PM
I think I see.

And the damage on Sample's feet that you're talking about are the small marks running perpendicular to the barrel on the forward curve of the feet?

I'm off to study the other thread.

Dave Sample
November 26, 2004, 05:52 PM
Well, Deary me. Let me explain to you that those marks I showed you are where they are supposed to be. Those marks are from the guide rod pushing the link into place when the gun returns to battery. They are a not a problem and they certainly aren't "Damage". This gun has a short slide and has had about 2000 rounds of hot ammo through it. There are no signs of wear that are not normal. The link and pin are Colt and the barrel is a $10.00 take out from Gunsite that I purchased from Ted Yost about 9 years ago at a Gun Show or at the range. It is very accurate and very pleasant shooting even with the +P loads it likes. I bought 5 or 6 of these stock barrels because no matter what I put in a 3" gun, they are as good as it gets for a Belly Gun". Also remember that this is not a Colt 1911. It is a Custom Caspian Commander lower end and Officers top end. This barrel locks up very tight and does a nice job of work. I still have a couple left out in the shop that also drop in very tight. I will guarantee you that if this barrel was not in there right, it would have self destructed right away. The springs are very strong in the recoil system and do a great job. It has been very reliable so far, but as Tuner knows, only time will tell.

Dave Sample
November 26, 2004, 06:06 PM
http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/2155283/62566457.jpg

Here is a lowered port and notch I did many years ago. Now it's on the LWGI.

Jammer Six
November 27, 2004, 05:04 AM
Let me explain to you that those marks I showed you are where they are supposed to be. Those marks are from the guide rod pushing the link into place when the gun returns to battery.

I didn't realize the guide rod traveled that far.

Are you saying that the guide rod head travels up over the barrel feet? :confused:

1911Tuner
November 27, 2004, 07:01 AM
Quote:

Those marks are from the guide rod pushing the link into place when the gun returns to battery.
____________________

mm hmm...mm hmm... :scrutiny:

Dave Sample
November 27, 2004, 06:26 PM
http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/5798744/74415885.jpg

Look at this picture and see if you can see where the rear of the guide rod lies. The slide stop pin goes through the hole in the link and the lower lugs rest on several areas while in lock up. The rear of the guide rod is pressed against the link at all times except whe the gun fires and the link pulls the barrel down.The marks on the tips of the lower lugs should be easy to figure out. They are from the slide stop pin. They are not serious and indicate a near perfect lock up. When blued guns fire, they leave marks inside unless they are very sloppy. Those marks are right in the center of where the slide stop pin rides.

1911Tuner
November 27, 2004, 08:33 PM
mm hmm. mmm hmm... :scrutiny:

Jammer Six
November 27, 2004, 08:34 PM
I see. Thanks.

'Tuner, why do you think this weapon is riding the link?

Is it just the damage on the feet, or do you see something else?

1911Tuner
November 27, 2004, 10:51 PM
Jammer asked:

>>why do you think this weapon is riding the link?<<
____________________

Specs. Could be one or more of a few things, Jammer...

Lower lug out of spec and can't lift the barrel high enough to get good lug engagement in the slide. Slide height above frame rails too high and the
barrel can't move into full engagement even if the lug IS right. Could even be a spec issue with the locking lugs themselves or even the slide...hard to say from here.

It's fairly common to see one lock on the link in some factory guns to some degree...but this one's off the scale. It might be the light/shadow effect, but my guess would be that if a link that was correct for the lug was in the gun, that it would almost operate as a straight blowback. I'm takin' a WAG and estimating that the barrel is standing on about .050 inch of link.

The link, when correctly fitted to the lug, should let the slidestop pin lightly
touch the forward radius of the lug, and cam the barrel up into vertical lock
on the shape and height of the lug...and still obtain at least 70% of lug engagement in the slide. If the barrel is well-fitted, it will cam into lockup
on the lug without involving the link at all. Many do lock on the link a little though...Colt has been known for it, but Springfield has pretty well gotten its act together on that point recently. My GI Mil-Spec cams up on the lug and I get very little vertical play at the rear of the barrel when I push down hard on the hood...maybe .003 inch or so. Not too shabby for an assembly-line
production pistol these days. My NRM Colt had a good link fit, but too much
vertical play in the barrel. I brought the frame rails down a little and the lockup is very good without play at the rear and it doesn't lock on the link at all. I did have to scrape the disconnector timing slot deeper after the slide sat lower on the frame, though...and the firing pin hits dang near dead-center now...or as near as my blurryold eyeballs can tell.

Dean Taylor
November 28, 2004, 08:18 PM
I have shot this 1911 hybred. I think it is perhaps the neatest pistol Dave has. It is very accurate and runs fine with 6 different types of ammo when the Captain and I had it at the Cooper Range at Gunsite. That day we even did a magazine with some 115 grain LSWC hot rods with out a burp. The Captain can still shoot rapid fire sweeps without a miss.

Dean
deanrtaylor@att.net

Wichaka
November 29, 2004, 03:28 AM
Capn'
"Those marks are from the guide rod pushing the link into place when the gun returns to battery."

Captain Bling.........either I'm really missin' somethin' here........or a full explanation wasn't done, but never in a 1911 does the head of the guide rod rest on the link, barrel, or anything attached to it.......it rests on the frame inside the spring tunnel. :scrutiny:

Bling;
The slide stop pin goes through the hole in the link and the lower lugs rest on several areas while in lock up.

What are the 'several' areas? I'm only aware of one........ :confused:

I see where 'hybred' was used........which means..........? Other than the diff. makes of slide & frame.........? :confused:

Is this 1911 not put together the same as other 1911's............? or operate the same?

1911Tuner
November 29, 2004, 07:06 AM
Quote:
>>never in a 1911 does the head of the guide rod rest on the link, barrel, or anything attached to it.......it rests on the frame inside the spring tunnel. <<
________________________

Whoopsie! :p

Dang Steve! Ya went and spoiled the surprise... :neener:

Old Fuff
November 29, 2004, 07:48 AM
You guys don't understand things at all .... :cuss:

The Capt.'s gun is one of those "New School" designs, and a vast improvement over what Old Man Browning did. Obviously you don't comprehend the vast changes that New School thinking has brought about. Having the recoil spring guide push on the link and help hold the barrel in battery is just a minor accomplishment. :scrutiny:

I supose the next step will be to hand-checker the guide's butt end ... That would be the untimate in bling ... :D :D

1911Tuner
November 29, 2004, 07:58 AM
Aight gents...Let's keep'er on the High Road and give the man a chance to
explain how it works. Fuff! Stop 'at cussin'! You ain't too old for Art's grammaw to take ya out behind the woodshed. :p

Standin' by for the inside story...

Old Fuff
November 29, 2004, 08:07 AM
Oh shucks ...

I was just trying to get you guys straightened out ...

It sure would be nice if you had some understanding about how this pistol works ... :neener: :D

1911Tuner
November 29, 2004, 08:23 AM
No harm, no foul Fuff.. :cool: The Captain mighta worked out somethin' that we don't know about yet.

Waitin' for the technical data... :scrutiny:

Dave Sample
November 29, 2004, 03:05 PM
The details are on the Autoloaders place. Check it out.

Jammer Six
November 29, 2004, 03:15 PM
The details are on the Autoloaders place. Check it out.

I'm sorry, I'm confused. :confused:

The details of what?

I don't see anything over in autoloaders about the guide rod and the barrel feet.

What thread is it?

sm
November 29, 2004, 03:20 PM
Humm < scratches head>

Okay I own one newfangled drastic plastic pistol. Granted is the only plastic gun I own and will be my last one. It is the "newest" handgun I own btw.

Okay how come my Keltec P-11 does not have a flared ejection port? :D

aw crap...running for the ditch...

Somebody help Old Fuff up ...he might have hurt himself falling off his chair laughing so hard :p

Hey...ya know what? My '28 DS and this here K frame don't have a lowered or flared dealie either.... :eek: :D

1911Tuner
November 29, 2004, 03:28 PM
Dave said earlier:

"The guide rod is in contact with the link at all times...until the slide moves."
(paraphrased)
_________________________

Okay... Lemme take it real slow...I think Dave's a mite confused about how this thing works.

When the gun fires, the slide and barrel move rearward together for a short distance and the barrel begins to unlock because the link swings forward of vertical and stops the barrel's rearward movement and forces it to change direction downward. It accomplishes this feat because the link pivots to allow the barrel to move the short distance required to get the lower lug off the slidestop pin. The link pivots BECAUSE the barrel moves backward away from it...not because something pushes it (the link) forward. There is no driving force on the link to swing it forward. It's just along for the ride until the barrel moves backward. Then it does its thing. If the link can't swing for whatever reason, the barrel can't unlock because the lower lug can't get off the slidestop pin...BECAUSE...the link would hold the pin to the back radius of the lug feet.

Movin' along to Technical Part Deux...

When the slide moves rearward in recoil, it compresses the recoil spring
into the FRONT of the guide rod head...therefore... whatever the BACK of the guide rod head is touching will come under increasing tension as the spring compresses.. If the guide rod is touching the front of the link, it will impede the ability of the link to swing forward of vertical...and the farther the slide moves, the more it will impede that function because of the recoil spring's increasing compression and loading against the FRONT of the guide rod head...which brings us back to square one: IF THE LINK CAN'T SWING FORWARD OF VERTICAL, THE BARREL CAN'T UNOCK FROM THE SLIDE AND THE GUN WILL NOT FUNCTION.

Cheers!

Dave Sample
November 29, 2004, 04:11 PM
OK Tuner , I give up! I guess you can't see where the big part of the guide rod rests on the lugs and the little button in the middle is resting on the link. This guide rod did not have enough metal there to grind a slope in it like we do the 5" ones. I would have destroyed it if I tried to modify it. It works great though, in spite of it being all wrong.

1911Tuner
November 29, 2004, 04:21 PM
NOOO! Not when you're so close to understanding!

The guide rod head...the flange...rests against the link when the slide is off the frame. When you slip it onto the frame, the flange stops against the
shoulder in the back end of the spring tunnel, and that keeps it forward of the link and the front of the lower lug. It has to, because the link needs room to swing forward. If the butt-end of the rod is resting dead on the link when the slide is on the frame...the link can't move...the barrel can't unlock, and the gun won't function.

Wasn't that easy? :cool:

Old Fuff
November 29, 2004, 04:40 PM
Dave ...

And the rest of you folks can do this at home too ... Even without adult supervision if you’re over 21 ...

Unload and then field strip your pistol and remove the recoil spring assembly from the slide. Then slide it into the front of the frame. Notice that the large flange on the back of the recoil spring guide comes up against a shoulder that’s even with the front of the frame’s slide rails. At this point the guide can’t move any further back. :eek:

The barrel lug and link are well behind the back of the recoil spring guide, and because the guide is butted up against a shoulder it cannot move back far enough to reach the lug and link. :scrutiny:

When you remove the slide, the recoil spring assembly along with its full-length rod, it can indeed move up against the lug and link, but the guide isn’t in this position when the gun is assembled. :rolleyes:

Now go study on this for a while, and then come back. If necessary I will draw you a picture. :D :D

Fuff, the 1911 Guru (Junior Grade).

Jammer Six
November 29, 2004, 04:42 PM
Oh, I see, I see, I see!

And I found a bunch of pictures, drawings, starting on page 12 of Volume II of Kuhhausen, that show exactly that!

They clearly show space between the head of the guide rod and the link, and the show a shoulder that would prevent the guide rod head from ever touching the link when the weapon is assembled.

I love understanding... :D

It does bring us back to the original question, though...

What, then, caused the marks on the barrel feet in the Capn's gun?

sm
November 29, 2004, 05:35 PM
:D

Sounds like fireworks with all them brains going "click" out there....

1911Tuner
November 29, 2004, 05:50 PM
Steve said:

Sounds like fireworks with all them brains going "click" out there...

Or a Paparazzi convention with Elvis as guest speaker. :cool:

Jammer Six
November 29, 2004, 07:09 PM
Sounds like fireworks with all them brains going "click" out there....

They call me "Captain Click".

No relation to Captain Crunch. He's a captain of a ship, and my people don't float. :D

1911Tuner
November 29, 2004, 07:27 PM
I remember when Jammer's click happened. :cool:

Ahhhh! The 1911 Colt-Browning autopistol. So simple, yet so complex. Seems like it's forever givin' up "new" secrets...Almost like seein' it for the very first time each time we pick it up. :)

Dave Sample
November 29, 2004, 08:01 PM
http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/2872874/75042791.jpg

What might this be?

Dave Sample
November 29, 2004, 08:12 PM
http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/2872874/75042766.jpg

Or the reason for this?

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/2872874/75042228.jpg

Note where the Shok-Buff is. The back of the guide rod hits the frame, not the front. Oh well, who could argue with the Old Fuff and Tuner. That button is right up against the link at the bottom part of it. The minute the gun is fired, the guide rod leaves the link and pin and comes back when the gun goes into battery again. The only time it's close is when it's in battery.

1911Tuner
November 29, 2004, 08:47 PM
>> That button is right up against the link at the bottom part of it. The minute the gun is fired, the guide rod leaves the link and pin.<<

No No No...The guide rod doesn't move forward. It's being hammered backward by the slide compressing the recoil spring. The barrel moves backward and causes the link to pivot. If the guide rod is being pushed into the link by the recoil spring compression, the link can't pivot forward because the guide rod would be pushing harder and harder on it as the slide moves rearward.

The guide rod flange sits on an abutment in the frame and will not let the spring push it further back into the link, as you suggested. If you cut the abutment further back to cause the end of the rod to hit the link, your gun wouldn't function.

Slowly...from the top:

Guide rod is attached to the flange. Whatever force acts on the flange acts on the rod equally. If the rod is free to move against the link, as you insist,
the link is blocked from movement by the increasing spring tension.

Recoil spring is against the flange. Recoil spring compresses, and exerts increasing force on the flange. More rearward force on the flange means more rearward force on the whole rod, including the button that is against the link.

If the end of the rod is pushing on the link, the link can't pivot. If the link can't pivot, the barrel can't unlock.

Your rod is touching the link when the top-end is off the frame. When you put it together, the rod sits forward of the link. In this pistol, it's not a lot, but it's there. When the gun fires, the barrel moves backward and takes the
top of the link with it, and the link will pivot at the bottom because the lower lug and the bottom of the link are now both farther away from the end of the rod. Not because the rod moved...Because the barrel moved. The rod can't move backward OR forward. Try it!

1911Tuner
November 29, 2004, 09:15 PM
I see what you're talkin' about here, Cap'n. I know that the rod touches the link when the top-end's off the frame. I'm with ya on that. It just ain't gonna touch it when the gun is together.

Now...what it seemed like you were implyin' was that the guide rod was loading against the link when the gun was together and in battery...and that can't be. Even if there's no sctive loading via the guide rod and recoil spring,
if the rod end is against the link when the gun fires, the link doesn't have enough clearance to swing forward without hitting the end of the rod, no matter what kind of relief angle you have on the rod.

Ask a couple of fools who...in years long past...got the bright idea to cut the
spring tunnel deeper so that we could have a buffer AND full slide travel.
Guess what. The link couldn't swing forward...The barrel couldn't unlock...and the gun wouldn't function.

Your guide rod ain't touchin' the link when the slide's on the frame the way it is when you've just got the top-end on the table. Won't work...

Wichaka
November 29, 2004, 10:10 PM
If you look at the 1911 frame, you'll see that the slide stop pin hole is right at the thick part of the frame where the barrel goes to bed (sweet dreams).
Just forward of that thick part is where the guide rod head rests against.

That slot in the frame at that spot, where the slide stop pin hole is, is where the link and lower lugs fit into. So there is no way the guide rod can contact the link or lower lugs..........WHEN PUT TOGETHER........ :banghead:

Although Cap'n Bling, you show a very interesting pic 2 posts ago, with your caption saying " What might this be?" I agree with that statement, what might that be?

There's some slot in the (guessing here) end of a guide rod that is resting against the link. What is that? Please remove it from where you have it and give us a better look at it. And why is that there? What function.......or possibly (mal) in this case...........does it have?


Also the comment about the shok-buff has me confused....... :confused:

The pic showing the buff.........yes, its in its proper place. Sandwiched between the guide rod head and recoil spring, as the spring tunnel on the slide makes contact with it..........as its supossed to...........

Talk about a thread getting off course..............I believe it started with port flaring........and now we've digressed into basic function of the 1911.
I shudder the thought of someone working on a 1911 without basic knowledge of how the thing works........ :what:

Jammer Six
November 29, 2004, 10:42 PM
shudder the thought of someone working on a 1911 without basic knowledge of how the thing works....

HEY! :fire:

He's not talking about you!

Oh.

He's not?

Never mind... :D

Old Fuff
November 29, 2004, 10:45 PM
What might this be? (Post #63)

I have one that is the same or similar to it. It was made by a company in Scottsdale, Arizona many, many years ago. A "New School" design of course, it eliminated the flange and was designed to rest againist the barrel lug and cam the barrel into engagement. Like many such gadgets is didn't work well and soon disapeared from the market. I suspect that few were ever seen beyond the greater Phoenix area, and it is understandable that few if any of you has ever seen one.

Jammer Six
November 29, 2004, 10:50 PM
What might this be? (Post #63)


Pssssst!

'Fuff!

"What might this be?" is post #62!

Carry on... :cool:

Old Fuff
November 29, 2004, 10:54 PM
Darn it!!! I'll never get to be a Guru ... :cuss:

It's late and my keyboard went too sleep ... :D :D :evil:

1911Tuner
November 29, 2004, 11:20 PM
I've seen one Fuff...Owned one as a matter of fact. Found it at a gun show and the price was dirt cheap. I thought it was interestin' and tried it out in a gun. Didn't work. Go back to the barrel lockin' up on the lug and pin and it works...Try to lock it with any other means, and it won't. The Dwyer thing was probably the best of the "Link-Lock" ideas....but those don't do nearly as well as just lockin' the gun up like it's supposed to be. Wichaka...The areas beside the slot push on the pin and force it back into the lug radius. The slot
gives the link room to pivot. That clearance has to be there. If the link itself is forced into the battery position by the rod, the barrel can't get far enough from it to let the link move. We're talkin' a tenth of an inch or less.

As far as the end of the guide rod bein' set back far enough to actually force the link into the back of the lug...It ain't happenin', Cap'n. The frame abutment keeps it forward far enough to give the link enough "swing" clearance to unlock the barrel. It's not a lot of clearance in the "Short Swords"...but it's still gotta be there. The angle on the end of the rod and flange provides a little fudge factor.

Need proof? Anybody with a Commander or shorter pistol with a FLGR in it...
Pop the slidestop out and watch the slide jump forward...Then watch the link through the hole when ya go to reinstall it. Watch the link loosen up when the slide comes back far enough to put tension back on the guide rod flange
and and hold it forward of the link.

Jammer Six
November 29, 2004, 11:36 PM
Here's the best drawing I could come up with online.

I'll keep looking, and see if I can come up with another drawing.

It clearly shows the space between the head of the guide rod and the link, as well as the ledge in the receiver that keeps the guide rod from touching the link.

The picture is here. (http://www.m1911.org/full_partname.htm)

Now, is there an answer from the assembled Greybeards?

What caused the marks on Sample's barrel feet, since we've established that it wasn't the head of the guide rod?

Wichaka
November 30, 2004, 03:11 AM
Tuner;
The areas beside the slot push on the pin and force it back into the lug radius. :confused:

The only thing I was gettin' at, is that the slot in the frame is for the link & lower lugs to fit into. And that abutment in the frame keeps the guide rod head at bay from contacting the above........

But if Bling is using one of them anti-JMB gizmos, then I guess that it would ride against the link? Yet, he also shows pics of regular type guide rod heads, and still says it makes contact with the link........?

I think I'm going to pull out of this one before I start sayin' things like........the trigger bow contacts the sear directly, IF the disconnect is modified properly........ :eek: :uhoh: :scrutiny:
And before I start checkering my sear spring, polishing the rails on the MS Housing, and put a jewled finish on the trigger bow! :what:

1911Tuner
November 30, 2004, 06:21 AM
Jammer asked:

What caused the marks, since we've established that it wasn't the head of the guide rod?

The slidestop pin. Hard to tell the extent on the pictures, but it's pretty typical of what I see on guns that have the barrel standin' that high on the link. The impact of the slide and barrel on the RTB causes the pin to hit
near the tips of the lug feet where they're thin. I also see it on guns that have been played with by letting the slide slam to battery without ammunition
to drag momentum off the slide. Bad JuJu.
__________________________

Fuff...I can't remember to save me what the name of that little trick was.
It was an ingenious solution to a non-existent problem like so many other
gadgets that we see for the 1911 these days...or a band-aid cure for a problem that should be corrected the right way.
__________________________

Easy Wichaka...Easy lad! The "Bait and Switch" routine between those two
pictures were doubtless just for illustrative purposes.

Gotta run! Cats ta kill and contracts ta fill today! Gonna be a long one.

Cheers!

1911Tuner
December 1, 2004, 05:14 AM
Rather than continuing to use bandwidth on this, let's see if we can reach a quick conclusion and move on.

Dave...What you're describing:

>>Let me explain to you that those marks I showed you are where they are supposed to be. Those marks are from the guide rod pushing the link into place when the gun returns to battery.<<

Ain't gonna happen. It's a mechanical impossibility.

Let's try a little experiment...shall we? Easy one. Anybody can do it.

Find a .323 diameter rod that will butt against the front of the link and protrude from the end of the frame and slide. (An inverted GM FLGR in a Commander-sized pistol will do.) Assemble the gun without the recoil system. Push the rod against the edge of a table so that you're driving the link and pin back into the barrel feet. Now...Try to pull the slide backward
while increasing the pressure on the rod to simulate the slide compressing the recoil spring.

Bet it won't happen.

If the subscribers would like a semi-lengthy breakdown and explanation, I'll provide one via PM or on an open discussion...Please advise which is preferred.

Regards...aaaaannnnnd out!

Tuner

Dave Sample
December 1, 2004, 11:46 PM
http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/2872874/75042766.jpg

Why do you think that this guide rod head is beveled like this? The flange goes up againt the lower lugs at the bottom of the barrel. This is cut away for one reason and one reason only. It is to keep the link OFF of the guide rod end.

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/2872874/75042265.jpg

Note the postion of the guide rod end when it is OFF the gun. It is exactly the same as when it is ON the gun.

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/2872874/75042243.jpg

This is the rerverse plug where the frame hits after it hits the shock buff.

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/5798744/74415885.jpg

Look through the hole in the link where the slide stop pin goes through and it is easy to see that those two little marks are exactly dead center on that pin. Those marks are on almost every barrel that links up tight on the slide stop pin resting on the lower lugs , and that is where that pin stops the slide at lock up. We DO NOT Want the link to touch there, but sometimes it does. In this case, it is hitting the link at the bottom and allowing these marks to be made visible to the camera. These marks were on the Norinco barrel and evey other barrel I have in the shop at this time that has been fired some. When the gun fires, the slide goes back about 1/4 of an inch and then the link pulls the barrel down and out of the way so we can have recoil and then feeding and chambering the next round. It slams forward and the end of the guide rod where the Shok-buff is slams against the rear of the reverse plug, and the plug hits the steel at the back of the plug tunnel. The link does not go up in smoke when this happens. It stays right there against the lower lugs of the barrel and the link moves backward with pressure on the guide rod. That is why it is round in that area. I am giving up trying to explain this to all of you becuase it is obvious that I am not able to convey to you what is going on. There is always pressure on that guide rod from the recoil spring on the lower lugs and the slide stop pin whatever postion it is in ,if the gun is assembled. The link is allowing the pin to make the marks as it travels back into the lugs where it holds everything in place. "De shin bone connects to the knee bone , and de knee bone connects to the leg bone, and de"...........

1911Tuner
December 2, 2004, 12:05 AM
Dave...It ain't gonna happen. Read this carefully and think about it. The end of that rod ain't pushin' on the link when the slide is on the gun. There HAS to be a little clearance between'em, or the link CAN NOT PIVOT AT ALL.

When the link is in the battery position, it's almost one degree PAST vertical
in a correctly fitted lower lug. If the end of the guide rod is pushing on the link hard enough to force the slidestop pin into the lug feet, it has to move an ADDITIONAL amount to take up the clearance between the link hole and the pin diameter. Average .003 inch. That means that the rod would apply positive tension against the link for more than one degree of arc.

If the gun fires in this condition of static lock, the barrel would have to move backward far enough to pivot the link through that arc.
After the link reaches vertical...against the increasing tension on the guide rod...the barrel is trying to move further backward, which is forcing the link to swing even further forward of vertical...still fighting the ever-increasing
tension imposed on the guide ro by the recoil spring. If the link can't swing forward, the barrel can't move backward and unlock. If the barrel can't unlock from the slide, everything comes to a dead stop.

The in-battery clearance HAS to be there.

There has to be enough clearance between the end of the guide rod and the link to allow the link to move at the instant that the gun fires...because
the barrel and slide start to move backward in recoil at the instant of bullet movement. Once the barrel starts its rearward trip, it creates more clearance between the end of the rod and the link, and the link will continue its arc until the barrel can go no further and it swings downward.

The end of the rod ain't pushin' on the link. It can't even touch it. If it did, the gun wouldn't function. It would be in a condition of static lock. I'd bet
even money that you couldn't even get the gun together with positive force on the link through the guide rod.

Dave Sample
December 2, 2004, 12:32 AM
I told you that I have given up on this one. The implication that I do not know how my guns work is silly.

Wichaka
December 2, 2004, 01:00 AM
Cap'n Bling;
I told you that I have given up on this one. The implication that I do not know how my guns work is silly.

Silly wasn't the adjective I was thinking of...........sad is more like it.

Take the bare frame.......put the barrel in the bed.......add the slide stop pin thru the link.........now add the guide rod head.........where/what does it go/fit against?

I rest my case. Thank you Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, you are all now dismissed.

Jammer Six
December 2, 2004, 04:38 AM
I told you that I have given up on this one. The implication that I do not know how my guns work is silly.

I'm curious why you're giving up, Dave.

This thread has been viewed over a thousand times.

It's a great chance for you to demonstrate the value of your classes, to a lot of people, as well as a great chance to demonstrate your ability to teach.

I, for one, am very interested in knowing how your get the head of the guide rod past the ledge in the frame that it rides on in a standard milspec, and why you'd want to do so.

What do you gain by putting in touch with the link? Why do you put it in touch with the link?

1911Tuner
December 2, 2004, 06:00 AM
This has been a lively and interesting thread. It has also been educational,
but it seems to have drawn some emotional responses, and that's not what it was all about. Mr. Sample has his way of doing things and we have ours.
We must learn to discuss these things in a polite and civil manner in keeping with The High Road's policy.

Wichaka, you have lost patience, and I understand...but you're getting very close to the line. Please keep your comments on the high road. You're a
good guy and a knwledgeable armorer, and we'd like to keep you here to pick your brain.
___________________

To answer Jammer's question:

The Commander and Officer's Model pistols have reduced slide travel, which requires shortened spring tunnels and frame rails as compared to 5-inch guns. This design change puts the guide rod closer to the lower lug and link,
and this is the reason for that angle on the guide rod flange. It provides extra clearance for the top of the link when the barrel is in battery.
It does NOT provide clearance for the link to pivot forward during barrel unlock. This design change in tunnel length and in the forward section of the lower lug allows for very little clearance between the guide rod and link, but the clearance must be there to prevent crashing when the link starts to pivot forward through its arc. Mr. Sample is mistaken in his assumption that it forces the link backward. It's just that simple. We all make mistakes.

The front of the lower lug is vertical rather than angled, as in the 5-inch guns.
When the recoil system is in the slide, it will allow the flange to contact the front of the lug, but when the slide is on the frame, the abutment in the recoil spring tunnel holds it forward to provide the necessary clearance.
___________________

Thank you all for your cooperation and support.

Tuner

Old Fuff
December 2, 2004, 08:15 AM
This thread has been and is still one of substantial value. It is clear from the many threads and posts presented on The High Road, as well as other forums on the Internet; that there is great interest in how and why the 1911 style pistol works the way it does, and what corrective steps one should take to correct some condition when it doesn’t work the way it should.

It is inevitable that different positions will be presented by various individuals - some claiming to have extensive experience and knowledge - then those put forward by others. That is exactly what has happened in this instance.

Fortunately in this case anyone with access to a 1911 style pistol can make they’re own determination of the truth in a manner that requires no particular skill or expertise. :scrutiny:

The barrel (with attached link), recoil spring guide (with its attached spring) and the slide stop can be placed in they’re respective positions in the frame while the slide is removed. Then the question of whether the link can or does ever touch the recoil spring guide when the pistol is assembled can be resolved by a simple visual inspection. :)

Following this observation anyone can decide for themselves who is creditable, and who isn’t. Thereafter they will be able to make an informed judgment as to who is believable, and who isn’t. :uhoh:

Others, especially those who are interested in the subject but don’t have access to a pistol can increase their knowledge by purchasing a book; “The Colt .45 Automatic - A Shop Manual” by Jerry Kuhnhausen. (which is available from a number of sources including Brownells at www.brownells.com and the publisher at www.gunbooks.com). This book is extensively illustrated, and the text is written with beginners and ordinary gun owners - as well as gunsmiths - in mind. :D :D

1911Tuner
December 2, 2004, 08:33 AM
Fuff...I appreciate the sentiment, but I'm afraid that this ain't gonna be resolved until somebody with a lathe and a talent for fabrication decides to
make a guide rod that'll push on the link. If they manage to get the gun together and loaded...which is doubtful...and fire it, the reality of the matter will be settled when the gun crashes.

This is the sort of thing that I try to prevent, since the mission of the forum is to provide good information. Good information that will prevent the readers from doing something that could damage their guns or get someone hurt...
but I digress. We can only point them in the right direction and hope that logic will give them pause in order to study the matter carefully before proceeding. At times...it seems to be akin to plowing in a lake.

Wichaka
December 2, 2004, 10:11 AM
I appologize to Dave Sample, THR members & Staff for my last post...........it should have been stated a bit different.

Tuner;
This is the sort of thing that I try to prevent, since the mission of the forum is to provide good information. Good information that will prevent the readers from doing something that could damage their guns or get someone hurt...
but I digress. We can only point them in the right direction and hope that logic will give them pause in order to study the matter carefully before proceeding. At times...it seems to be akin to plowing in a lake.

If some remember, this very point that Tuner makes, came up awhile ago in a couple of threads I started. The one I speak of was about info. being put on THR, and the relability..........or liability of it.

My last post was essentially the same as Fuff's.........in that I gave the illustration of putting the gun together without the slide to see where everything fit..........then everyone can draw the conclusion from there.

Have a happy :)

1911Tuner
December 2, 2004, 10:29 AM
Ahhhh..No harm, no foul mah fren. Just tryin' to keep things from goin' down in flames. ;) I feel your pain and frustration, though...Ah rilly dew.

In the interest of science, I'll make a standing offer to anyone keepin' up with this thread. Got a little time on my hands for the next day or two.

I'll go crank up my handy dandy lathe and make a guide rod that will do exactly what has been described here. i.e. sit deep enough in the well to
exert sufficient pressure on the barrel link to force the slidestop pin into the lug feet...and send it free of charge. Consider it a Christmas gift from the
Tunerfish. All I need to know is whether it will be installed in a 5-inch gun, a Commander, or an Officer's Model.

When you get it, install it in your pistol and go shoot it. Depending on how the tolerances stack up in your particular gun, it may take 8 or 10 rounds to see the reality...or it may only require one. I don't advise that it be installed in a gun that you like.

Give me the word, the specs, and the address and it's out the door next day.

Standin' by...

Dave Sample
December 3, 2004, 06:39 PM
OK. The EAGLE 2 is imaginary and it never went to the Shot Show years ago and the pictures of the link touching the end of the guide rod were rigged up in Paint Shop Pro. This gun simply is a figment of my imagination. I did it just to fool you and I must say I am sorry for that. For those of you who have shot it, it was just a dream, and it wasn't real. End of story.

1911Tuner
December 3, 2004, 08:23 PM
Now Dave...Don't go gittin' yer knickers in a knot..not when we're so close to
enlightenment. :p

I'll admit that it might be brushin' up against it...but it ain't pushin' on the link hard enough to force that pin back into the feet like you said.

Got the lathe all set up and rarin' to go...Gimme the Word. Gimme the model...and it's out the door. Gonna make one and everybody can pass it around.

Standin' by...

Dave Sample
December 5, 2004, 04:44 PM
The Picture of the Guide Rod Head that I put up is so that the rod goes up against the lower lugs without contacting the guide rod head and the Link. No one has commented on that picture and that is sad. I have been doing these this way for years and Chip is the only one that I know of that has caught on. We talked about this years ago at The Shot Show when I told him he had the best disconnector going. That is a one piece guide rod that we use in the Online 1911 Class. I spend a lot of time with him at every Show I go to because he will listen, and will change things. He is not as arrogant as some of the others there selling parts that are the wrong dimensions. They do not change them because you guys keep buying them so they sell all they want and do not care. These is one other factor: He likes me!

Old Fuff
December 5, 2004, 06:25 PM
>> The Picture of the Guide Rod Head that I put up is so that the rod goes up against the lower lugs without contacting the guide rod head and the Link. <<

When you say that "the rod" (I presume that you mean the rod head, as this should be obvious) goes up against the lower lugs WITHOUT CONTACTING THE GUIDE ROD HEAD AND THE LINK.

Ya need to play that one again. I think what you met to say was that "the head of the guide rod goes up against the barrel lug and doesn't touch the link because there is a clearance slot cut in the guide rod's head."

While you're at it specify which post has this particular picture, as you've posted several different ones.

If you are refering to the picture in post #62 you will find comments in posts #66, #68, #71 and #73.

1911Tuner
December 5, 2004, 07:16 PM
Weeeeeeeee...might...oughtaclosethisone before it reaches critical mass again. :eek:

Fuff...Go crawl back in your cave and don't come out again 'til Christmas
or I'll tell Dave where ya are.

Gentlemen...Time!

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