10mm vs .45 ACP in a Glock


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BlackCat
November 23, 2004, 08:33 PM
Can anyone point me in the direction of some ballistics tables for these two calibers? I thought I was settled on the .45, but I keep seeing everyone talk up the 10mm as being such a powerful round. I want a new pistol mainly for fun, and for taking down the occasional charging grizzly bear, and for use against terrorists. A .38 Special wheelgun really doesn't cut it for me anymore. I'll probably go for a full-sized pistol. Thanks alot!

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antsi
November 23, 2004, 11:08 PM
I shoot both .45 and 10mm, and like them both. As far as effective defense on humans, either one ought to be plenty effective. Speaking as a medical person, I find the "large hole" theory of ballistic effectiveness more convincing than the "kinetic energy" theory - and the .45 does create a larger hole than 10mm. Also I find .45 somewhat more manageable to shoot. Despite all that, I don't carry either caliber. For a carry gun, I think there are factors of the gun itself that are more important than caliber (unless we're talking ridiculous extremes like .22LR or .50BMG). I'd say look at both, try several guns in both calibers, and go for the one you shoot the best.

PS: I don't know if you are serious about the bears or not, but neither of these would really be my choice against a large dangerous animal.

MCNETT
November 24, 2004, 01:31 AM
I shoot them both, but the 10mm is what I carry in the city or the woods.
-Mike

PS - if you go to www.10mmtalk.com , then go to the DoubleTap forum you will find all of the external ballistic tables for 11 different loads in the top thread.

BlackCat
November 24, 2004, 02:21 AM
Thanks guys! I was discussing this with a friend of mine tonight and he said "how about a .40?", well I guess I don't know about that either. Then there's of course the .357 SIG. I will have to see if I can find some guns to shoot. I've shot a G21 (.45) and it worked well for me. I guess if I don't feel I made the right choice I can get another, but I'm buying a NIB, I'd like to get what's right for me the first time. I'm really only familiar with the .380, 9mm Para., .38, .357, and .44. I've spent a bit of time on the good side of a newish P-Series Ruger .45ACP also.

10mm > .357 mag.; .357 SIG; .40 S&W

As far as grizzlys, yes I was serious, to an extent. I know it's not the ideal weapon, but it's a good last resort, which is what I intend a sidearm to be anyway.. Something with enough punch to make myself feel better. There's always the chance of an overly aggressive black bear or mountain lion too.

jc2
November 24, 2004, 09:24 AM
10mm > .357 mag.; .357 SIG; .40 S&W
Minor clarification (to keep the perspective correct):

10mm < .41 Magnum; .44 Magnum
10mm = .357 Magnum
10mm > 357 SIG; .40 S&W (once the range exceeds 20-25 yards)

ID_shooting
November 24, 2004, 09:48 AM
jc2, I disagree.

10mm is = or slightly < .41 mag +/- a few ft lbs.

From Speer # 13:

mid level for .41 mag w/ 200 gr pill @ 1200 fps = 498 ft lbs @ 50 yds

mid level for 10mm w/ 200 gr pill @ 1100 fps = 474 ft lbs @ 50 yds

mid level for .357 mag w/ 158 gr pill @ 1100 fps = 365 ft lbs @ 50 yds

Anyway, back to the original post. I choose 10mm over .45 ACP, but my cohort choose .45 ACP over 10mm. I say you are fine iether way.

BlackCat
November 24, 2004, 03:25 PM
Thanks, that's definately helpful. I guess it will come down to magazine capacity, ammunition prices (if there's a significant difference), and availabilty of high capacity magazines. That 33rd mag. for a 9x19 is tempting, but I can settle for less, if less is more. Thanks again!

jc2
November 24, 2004, 09:02 PM
ID_shooting -

When you compare the top factory loads (e. g., Double Tap for the 10mm and Buffalo Bore for the .357 Magnum), you will see the .41 Magnum is considerably "hotter" than the 10mm and the .357 Magnum is just slightly "hotter" than the 10mm (but not enough to make a difference). The figures you are quoting from the Speer Manual are very, very conservative (e. g., Buffalo Bore loads the 158-grain Gold Dots 1485 fps/763 fpe in a four-inch .357 Magnum).--certainly even a long way from even "mid-level"

So, if you look at top-end loads, it is very definitely:

10mm < .41 Magnum (by a factor of almost 50%)
10mm = .357 Magnum

Besides, who in their right mind compares "mid-level" (at best, an ill-defined concept) to determine anything. Why not compare "low-level" loads instead?

Johnny C. Kitchens
November 24, 2004, 11:40 PM
He was showing performance for 50 yards, not mid performance loads. If you had to shoot a Grizzly, which would you be worried about. Muzzle energy, or energy on target. There is another consideration with the Grizzly. .41 Magnum 6 shots vs 10mm Auto in Glock 16 rounds. Thats a bunch more energy to have on tap...

hnm201
November 25, 2004, 12:37 AM
10mm for bear defense? That ain't a job for a hand gun. More appropriate portable bear medicine can be found here: http://www.wildwestguns.com/Bushwacker/body_bushwacker.html

ID_shooting
November 25, 2004, 07:08 AM
Alright jc2,

I do not wish to trump this guys thread. Please start another thread and post the compareable #s side-by-side.

jc2
November 25, 2004, 09:38 AM
No need to do that, ID shooting. The data readily available elsewhere if anyone wants to look. The only reason I even posted them in the first place is Blackcat (the guy with the questions, remember) had them ranked incorrectly.

A good source for hot factory 10mm ballistics is Double Tap--all his ballistics are out of Glock 20. A good source for hot factory .357 Magnum (and .41 Magnum) ballistics is Buffalo bore--he has .357 Magnum ballistics from a four-inch L-frame (FTR is .41 Magnum ballistics are from a six-inch barrel).

The bottom line, when comparing top-end factory loads, the .357 Magnum and 10mm are ballistic twins. If one is adventurous, I say you could push .357 Magnum loads a lot hotter out of a GP100/686/Redhawk than 10mm than out of a Glock 20.

ID_shooting
November 25, 2004, 09:52 AM
Im just saying, you can believe them if you want. But in the real world, my own loads compared to the books, thier numbers don't jive.

Lennyjoe
November 25, 2004, 10:35 AM
If its your first pistol and you have more than one use in mind for it (CCW, outdoors ect.) then I'd go with the 10MM.

Mind you, the 10MM isnt exactly cheap to practice with. Ammo can be found but you have to shop for it. If you reload your even better off. .45 ammo is pretty cheap so you can practice more with it more often without breaking the bank.

Only reason I dont CCW with a 10MM is cause the only one I own for now is a full size S&W 1006. Bit large for CCW but I always have it on my belt when Im out in the bush.

dairycreek
November 25, 2004, 01:21 PM
Not going to argue makes of guns here. But the 10mm round is a great combo round. It can be carried as a CCW or as a pretty effective "woods gun". Good ballistic stats and a really fun shooter. Downside is the ammo which is not always easy to find but is always expensive. Good shooting;)

Marcus
November 25, 2004, 02:03 PM
BC,.45 ACP is a fine round but the 10mm has a wider range of loads,can be much more powerfull and it holds more rounds. What`s more if you MUST use a service type auto against a bear (which is not a good idea to say the least IMO but sometimes you gotta do what ya gotta do...) DT 220gr. or 200gr. full house loads have much better sectional density and penetration than any .45ACP load. Shop around even a little bit and you`ll find that 10mm practice ammo is the same price as .45ACP and so is the premium stuff. Buy a cheap drop in barrel and you can shoot .40S&W with cheap bulk ammo too,with no other changes. Neat huh? :) Marcus

BlackCat
November 25, 2004, 11:10 PM
You guys are full of great information, but that hasn't seemed to make the decision much easier! :) It will probably end up being a .45 though. I plan on getting the full size version, and yes, I plan to use it as a CCW (though not as it's primary use). Not real concealable I realize, but it will work.

10mm for bear defense? That ain't a job for a hand gun. More appropriate portable bear medicine can be found here: http://www.wildwestguns.com/Bushwac...bushwacker.html

That's a really cool unit, never seen anything like that! I realize it's not a pistols' job to handle bear duties, but after emptying my rifle I need a better back up than trying to reload a damned bolt action with a bear charging me!

If its your first pistol and you have more than one use in mind for it (CCW, outdoors ect.) then I'd go with the 10MM.

I have a S&W Model 10 .38 w/ a 4" bbl, this would be my first auto pistol though.

Thanks guys!

Clean97GTI
November 26, 2004, 05:10 AM
My answer to this would be go with the Glock 20.

Bar-Sto makes 6" barrels which will only help the 10mm load against a bear. You can also swap in your factory barrel when its time to take the Glock into the city.

16 rounds of 10mm is a nice way to feel safe. At the very least, you'll give the bear something to think about.

Ultima-Ratio
November 26, 2004, 05:04 PM
Just for grins you could research the .45 Super or .451 Detonics or .450SMC or .460 Rowland which btw can all trump the 10mm! :neener:

BlackCat
November 28, 2004, 03:29 PM
Well I did some research and the .45ACP isn't legal for deer here, but the 10mm is. That 'bout settles it. I can't wait to put a laser beam on bambi's chest and squeeze away. :evil: Glock 20 it is, unless I can be talked into a sub-compact version.

MCNETT
November 28, 2004, 04:42 PM
Great! You'll love it! The 10mm makes an excellent deer weapon as long as you put it in the boiler room.
-Mike

PO2Hammer
November 28, 2004, 07:00 PM
Black Cat, see the thread on Glock 20 query.
Also if you are anywhere near SE Minn., I'll let you give my 20 a tryout. P.M. or E-mail me.

10mm
February 21, 2005, 06:25 PM
You may not be aware of this Black Cat (you mentioned the 33rd 9mm mags), but they now make super high cap mags for the .40, 10mm, & .45acp now. The 10mm is a 28rd (+2). Made by Scherer. I dont have one yet but I've only heard good things....dead ringer for a glock factory mag. The 10mm works in both the G20 & G29 though it would be a little hard to conceal. Check it out they average $75 on internet gun sites. Also, though the G29 is sometimes labelled a subcompact, it is more similar to a compact G19 than a sub compact G26 in size. Just add a finger grip extension and they are pretty much the same size. Its bigger than the baby glocks. Thought you might be interested.

Here is the info on the G29 10mm:
http://www.glockfaq.com/guide.htm#g29

Compare to the G19 Compact 9mm:
http://www.glockfaq.com/guide.htm#g19

Now compare to the subcompact G26:
http://www.glockfaq.com/guide.htm#g26

My vote 10mm! .45ACP will always be a legend of history, but the 10mm is writing the future! Think of it as a magnum .40 if you don't know how to place it in the scale. Also the Glocks accept the recoil much better than some of the other 10mm despite the light weight in my opinion.

Didnt notice this thread was so old...hope people are still talking about the 10mm

BlackCat
February 21, 2005, 11:50 PM
Welcome 10mm! I decided on the Glock 20. I will probably get one of those mags in the future, that would be more than a little cool. I'll happily take 28rds of 10mm over 33rds of 9mm!

1966
February 22, 2005, 05:17 AM
I like the .45 over the 10mm.

10mm
February 22, 2005, 11:30 AM
Thank you for the welcome. The 28 rd are on gunbroker and similar sites. They are somewhat hard to come by due to the demand, but I know a few places locally (South, FL) have had them in at points (while the lasted), and I see them from time to time resurface.

As for the original thread: The .45 has alot going for it. Its a predictible manstopper with a proven track record, I just seem to favor the 10mm. I also want a G30/G36, but not becaue the 10mm has let me down...I just want both. The recoil between the two calibers is different, but does not hinder my target acquisition for follow up shots any more or less. Obviously if I step down to a 9mm or .380 there is a difference, but between the .45 and 10mm it is negligible. Both will make huge wound channels and have plenty of "knock down" power. I just feel safer knowing that if I need to shoot through glass or thick clothing or obstructions, that I have the best chance of doing so with a 10mm. Either way I wouldnt hunt with them: handgun + bear = wounded angry bear :fire: ...not something I ever want to see...thats why we have long guns & bear traps!

Getting shot with either is deadly. Its like comparing a Camaro and a Trans Am. Both similar under the hood, just minor differences to the positive and negative. Taking either car as your daily driver is good enough to keep up with whatever is called for...and then some...with these two glocks (calibers) I feel the same way.

PS: For "Ultimate-Ratio" if we are talking super calibers, dont forget the 10mm Magnum in that comparison...lets not compare apples to oranges! :neener:

Mikul
February 22, 2005, 02:29 PM
I've done excessive thinking on the 10mm and finally came to the conclusion that what you really need is enough penetration to hit something vital. 10mm, .45, .357, and .40 all have more than enough penetration. Beyond penetration, wider is better. It seems no matter how you look at it, .45 ACP wins.

mjb
February 22, 2005, 04:31 PM
Some of you have forgotten about the hot 10mm rounds. Texas Ammunition makes 10mm rounds at about 7oo ft lbs. Winchester Silvertip and Cor-Bon 135 gr are also as hot as the .41 Mag. I know there are hunting rounds for the .41 Mag that are even hotter, but with the right ammo, the 10mm does go into the .41 Magnum range. I like a 15 rd Glock in 10mm when I am in the woods. You can empty a Glock really fast if you are familiar with the trigger.

BlackCat
February 23, 2005, 09:22 PM
Beyond penetration, wider is better. It seems no matter how you look at it, .45 ACP wins.

Ask the people who wrote my states big game hunting laws. 10mm Auto is legal, .45 Auto isn't. There's gotta be a reason.

Jeff
July 15, 2005, 02:44 AM
I got poked in the ribs the other day with a broom handle from a careless cleaning woman. I said "excuse me" and she said "I'm sorry." That is the equivalent of a charging grizzly bear getting hit with a .45 or 10mm. :D

Rockstar
July 15, 2005, 06:46 PM
10mm: The Scherer mags might or might not work, but I can guarantee you they won't be dead ringers for the real thing! ;) Of course Glock never made 33-rd. mags for anything but 9mm, so you'd have a hard time finding a Glock mag for comparison.

Igloodude
July 15, 2005, 09:58 PM
Just for grins you could research the .45 Super or .451 Detonics or .450SMC or .460 Rowland which btw can all trump the 10mm!

Funny, I was going to mention the same thing. .45 Super, the hotness of 10mm and the hole of a .45ACP, best of both worlds, right? :cool:

pocketgun
July 16, 2005, 12:48 AM
Trust me....if you're going to carry your gun on your body concealed, (and not in your glove compartment), YOU'RE GOING TO GET TIRED OF CARRYING AND TRYING TO HIDE THOSE BIG HEAVY GUNS YOU NAMED.......REAL QUICK!

Wise words. Get the Glock 20 and something smaller you can easily conceal. I suggest something the size of the Kahr PM9, Kel-Tec P11, or smaller. Considering the age of this thread, you have no doubt already made your decision... :rolleyes:

glock21detroit
June 9, 2008, 01:21 AM
i carry the glock 21 with winchester rangers in the 230 gr, this bullet goes 990fps. that seems very imperssive for a big bullet like that going that fast. i have 14 in my weapon, that won't stop a bear? i'm in the city, so my knowledge on what will stop a bear is close to none. but i would think if i hit that damn bear with 14 shots, that should take him down. i could be wrong and if that is so, then i need a glock 20. if anyone could answer that question i would be greatful for the knowledge.


this is my first post, thanks guys for the information you have give me in the past:)

RTFM
June 9, 2008, 08:57 AM
Why is EVERY ONE so damned interested in killing Bears with handgun rounds?

You live in the city - worry about gangs and liberals.

The_woodsman
June 9, 2008, 08:56 PM
Grizzly Bears? Terrorists? What next, Zombies?

You'd better get yourself a phaser from the USS enterprise instead.

Beam me up, Scottie!

:neener:

Big Boomer
June 9, 2008, 09:30 PM
Just for grins you could research the .45 Super or .451 Detonics or .450SMC or .460 Rowland which btw can all trump the 10mm!

+1...2...3...oh hell +10!

Although I do like the 10mm, if you do not have a 45, OMG man get a 45! Unless you reload 10mm will pale in performance and cost.

Many show stats for the 45acp then show double tap ammos stats for 10mm. The 45+P loads from double tap come close to loads for the 45 Super.

If you reload, the 45 Super is a KICK ASS! If you are manly enough there is the 460 Rowland that can throw out a 185gr pill at over 1500fps! Out of a 5 inch barrel this exceeds 44mag performance for barrel length.

The 10mm can be stout, there is no doubt. But for the good stuff you are either restricted to buying expensive ammo, and usually only online, or reloading.

So if you don't reload the 460 Rowland/45 Super/10mm are pretty much out of the question.

a 45 acp in most loadings 185-230gr will put a nice big hole in someone if you need it. Ammo is readily available pretty much anywhere.

Northalius
June 9, 2008, 09:54 PM
You live in the city - worry about gangs and liberals.

LOL! Good one. :)

But seriously? It actually depends on the city. Don't trash him just yet. Just a week ago a blackbear was spotted in a park in Richmond VA (I live about 35 minutes NW of Richmond). No joke. And it's not a rare case, either.

I'm in the woods, so obviously, there'll be more sightings here. Just 3 days ago my neighbor (who's about 250 yards from me) said HER neighbor (about 100 yrds from her) saw a bear in their backyard.

BigBoomer... DoubleTap .45 ACP doesn't come close to their 10mm. Sorry. Their .45 ACP were fired from a 5" 1911 barrel, and their 10mm from a 4.6" Glock 20... yet the .45 ACP still didn't come close to the 10mm power.

DoubleTap 200 gr. WFNGC Beartooth flying in at 1300 fps from a 4.6" barrel, with 750 ft. lbs. energy. Put in a 6" barrel, and we're talking 1400+ fps, with around, or over, 900 ft. lbs. energy. The .45 ACP can only dream of such stats from the factory. Not even the .45 Super came close to the 10mm. The highest energy from a factory .45 Super that I've seen was 694 ft. lbs.?! Not even breaking 700!

Given equal barrel length, the 10mm out-powers even the .357 Magnum. If memory is correct, semi-auto pistols' barrels have the chamber counted in with the length of the barrel; whereas revolvers have the length of barrel which is literally stated. So, again, given equal barrel length, the 10mm is more powerful than the .357 Magnum, from what I've seen so far, at least.

I am getting a Glock 29 for CCW in the city and county, and for bear defense at the same time, since I work (and live) in and near the woods, yet have to go into the city / town.

The 10mm is plenty against black bears... as long as its DoubleTap 10mm 200 gr. WFNGC Beartooth.

DT's 200 gr. FMJ-FP (advertised as weaker than the WFNGC Beartooth) was put straight through a dense telephone pole, so I'd say their 200 gr. Beartooth is enough against any bear under 500 lbs. Heck, even a little more than that.

Even Ted Nugent walks around Africa with his Glock 20. Suicidal? Maybe. But he seems to know something most who don't even own a 10mm Glock 20 don't know, huh? And he's HARDLY some dumb gun novice... I can tell you that right now.

Not sure if true, but a poster on a forum who lives in Alaska said the Glock 20 is pretty popular in Alaska. Guess that says a lot, huh? ;)

Of course, a .44 Mag is better; and a .500 Mag better than that... but the 10mm is hardly a slouch, even against bears... AS LONG as you use the right make of rounds (DoubleTap) and the right bullets (200 gr. WFNGC). ;)

Big Boomer
June 10, 2008, 12:48 AM
BigBoomer... DoubleTap .45 ACP doesn't come close to their 10mm. Sorry. Their .45 ACP were fired from a 5" 1911 barrel, and their 10mm from a 4.6" Glock 20... yet the .45 ACP still didn't come close to the 10mm power.

DoubleTap 200 gr. WFNGC Beartooth flying in at 1300 fps from a 4.6" barrel, with 750 ft. lbs. energy. Put in a 6" barrel, and we're talking 1400+ fps, with around, or over, 900 ft. lbs. energy. The .45 ACP can only dream of such stats from the factory. Not even the .45 Super came close to the 10mm. The highest energy from a factory .45 Super that I've seen was 694 ft. lbs.?! Not even breaking 700!

Wasn't comparing the 45 acp to the 10mm but stating that double tap has some 45 acp loads that come close to 45 Super loads, that is impressive.

Considering you only have what 1 or 2 factory loaders for the 45 Super. It's kinda like the 10mm when it got dumbed down only a few manufacturers out there that make "good n hot" ones though right?

694 ft lbs in a 45 Super is a light load.

Try some of these on for size:

185gr 1403 fps for 808 ft lbs
200gr 1295 fps for 744 ft lbs
230gr 1070 fps for 585 ft lbs
260gr 1000 fps for 577 ft lbs

So double taps 200 at 1300fps for the 10mm and 1295 for the 45 Super. Whelp ya got it by 5 fps! But oh wait, what's that 260 grainer doing there?!

If you really want a crotch rocket, fire some loads of 110 grainers for the 45 Super.

Double taps 10mm 180 grain loads with jacketed only get to 1300fps?

I am not saying the 45 Super trumps the 10, I am just saying that it's damn close if not equal most of the time. And if ya want to throw on the 6" bbl on the glock then I'll just toss on my 460 Rowland barrel and that kinda defeats that too...185 at 1521fps with only 951 ft lbs or even the 200gr at 1483 fps for a puny 977 fp lbs sure feels nice :D

But they are just pistols after all...

I'm actually going to pick up one of the new delta elites when it comes out. I just don't like Glocks :neener:

Northalius
June 10, 2008, 01:42 AM
What manufacturer makes those loads at those speeds and energy? Or is that handloaded? And length of barrel used? 5" 1911, I'm going to assume?

I've read people handloading their 10mm themselves to fly in at 1830 fps (135 gr. I believe) tops; 1810 average. If my guess is right about 135 gr., then that's more than 200 fps faster than DoubleTaps' 10mm. So adding 150-200 fps more on to DT's loads, you're looking at massive power from a 10mm.

No one said DT had MAX potential from the 10mm, either. They're just the strongest from factory, is all I'm saying. Handloaded 10mm can be much more powerful. I believe DT simply loads down because of staying at or around SAAMI specs.

DT's highest velocity 180 gr. (XTP) is 1350 fps. He must load the Gold Dot HP lower for a reason; probably to keep it from fragging up too much.

If DT can make a 200 gr. go 1300 out of a 4.6" barrel, then if they wanted, they can easily go over 1400 fps with 180 gr. out of the same length barrel... if they really wanted to.

Anyway, this is 10mm vs. .45 ACP

10mm > .45 ACP, any day. Has more power AND more capacity! If you're in the woods, you want the 10mm, if picking from these two!

Whitman31
June 10, 2008, 01:52 AM
Good Article...

http://www.greent.com/40Page/ammo/10/10mm-advoc.htm

Big Boomer
June 10, 2008, 11:15 AM
I've read people handloading their 10mm themselves to fly in at 1830 fps (135 gr. I believe) tops; 1810 average.

I scoured around for loads on the 10mm (as I am looking to buy one) and have only seen 135gr under 1550fps within SAAMI specs. Any idiot can make a proof load and hope his gun holds up for a few shots.

The specs I was quoting were for SAAMI.

I figured you would throw in that "more capacity thing" but as I said I HATE GLOCKS so if you noticed they make a nice new 1911 in the delta elite coming out soon. I could take a 22lr bear hunting too but I'll stick with my 45/70 boom stick and the 500 hand cannon for those tasks.

You are right about the fragmentation. My 460 Rowland actually penetrates LESS than my 45 Super or 45 acp with the same bullet. Wound channel is much different but there is fragmentation that occurs in your HP bullets. Gold Dots were not meant to scream out that fast. Now the FMJ is a different story. But then what really is the purpose of those rounds?

My pistols are my carry devices. Primary target, two legged snakes. I want something that works great on those. Also trying to conceal those double stack mags is a pain in the rear. Looks like I get a friggin goiter!

I have an XD-45 so I understand the problems carrying a double stack mags as spares and a large polymer. I must also say this is the first AND LAST polymer gun that I will ever buy period. I like it. But nothing is as comfortable as a 1911 in my pants...that kinda sounded um wierd.

MTMilitiaman
June 10, 2008, 09:40 PM
When you compare the top factory loads (e. g., Double Tap for the 10mm and Buffalo Bore for the .357 Magnum), you will see the .41 Magnum is considerably "hotter" than the 10mm and the .357 Magnum is just slightly "hotter" than the 10mm (but not enough to make a difference).

True .41 Magnums run on the heels of the .44 Magnum, and I would never try to compare the 10mm Auto to either of them. However, I have to question how much advantage a .357 Magnum could have over the 10mm Auto when comparing top loads, and equal barrel lengths. Remember that the .357 Magnum being a revolver round is usually tested in barrels that are actually longer than your typical full size service auto due to differences in how barrel lengths are measured. A revolver is measured from the rear of the barrel in front of the cylinder gap. An auto is measured from the rear of the chamber block. So a 4.6 inch barreled auto like the Glock 20 only has a little over 3 inches of actual rifling, or maybe 80% of the barrel length afforded by a 4 inch revolver.

I don't consider the 10mm Auto, .357 Magnum, .41 Magnum, .44 Magnum, or just about any other handgun for that matter, adequate for grizzly defense. I would use any of aforementioned handguns with the right loads to defend against and hunt black bear or mountain lion, and have carried my Glock 20 on my hip when hunting and hiking for that purpose. With a 180 or 200 gr bullet, esp a controlled expansion JHP or FMJFP, the Glock 20 has the penetration necessary for these smaller critters, but not for the larger, heavier built grizzly. The magazine capacity of the Glock 20 makes no difference here, and anyone who has ever seen a grizzly move would know this. A grizzly is going to be on you before you can shoot more than maybe 3 aimed rounds. That fact that you have 12 left in the magazine, or that you can pop off 9 un-aimed rounds in the bear's general direction is completely irrelevant.

As for the 10mm vs the .45 ACP, I would say it would depend on what your primary use is going to be. If you are going to be hunting or using the handgun for defense against cougars or such, as well as using it for defense against two-legged predators, then I would give the nod to the 10mm Auto. It has the potential to be loaded to provide better penetration, which would be especially important on frontal shots likely to be encountered when defending yourself against a bear or mountain lion. The 10mm does, however, have more muzzle flip and snappier shooting characteristics than the .45. Like the .357 Magnum it is ballistically equivalent to, the 10mm requires more practice to gain and stay proficient in than the more traditional service cartridges. I tend to feel that it is worth it, if you can, to do so. As a purely defensive handgun, the .45 has a stellar reputation and the added controllability it offers might outweigh any advantages one can gain in penetration with another round.

Also, I would argue as to whether the .45 expands to an average larger diameter. It has a greater initial diameter, but the greater energy and velocity of the 10mm Auto makes it more likely to expand. I think it evens out in the end.

Ultima-Ratio
June 12, 2008, 01:09 AM
I scoured around for loads on the 10mm (as I am looking to buy one) and have only seen 135gr under 1550fps within SAAMI specs. Any idiot can make a proof load and hope his gun holds up for a few shots.

Look a bit harder boomer, the Hodgedon manual lists a 135gn load using 800x that I've clocked at over 1700fps and somewhere on their website as data for Longshot that get high numbers also.

Glocktalk has a massive amount of loading data for the 10mm also, please bear in mind that all 10mms are not equal in strength as are many barrels may or may not have proper (safe) chamber support.

Big Boomer
June 12, 2008, 02:33 AM
I don't have my reloading manuals with me (out of town on business again :( )

but just went to hodgdon's site (can never spell that right, nor pronounce it!) in the 135 grainers hottest I see there is under 1500fps no 800x listed for the 135 grainers.

What PSI are those operating at? Their site shows loads close to 37k psi but I believe that safe specs are within 40k right? I am also looking at a 5" barrel not the 6".

I'd be interested in finding some but within safe limits. If I'm going to drop another G on a gun I'd like to get a few rounds threw it before I blow it to pieces ;)

Ultima-Ratio
June 12, 2008, 04:32 AM
I don't have my reloading manuals with me (out of town on business again )

but just went to hodgdon's site (can never spell that right, nor pronounce it!) in the 135 grainers hottest I see there is under 1500fps no 800x listed for the 135 grainers.

What PSI are those operating at? Their site shows loads close to 37k psi but I believe that safe specs are within 40k right? I am also looking at a 5" barrel not the 6".

I'd be interested in finding some but within safe limits. If I'm going to drop another G on a gun I'd like to get a few rounds threw it before I blow it to pieces

You will see a very under rated 14.5 grains of IMR 800X which BTW won't fit in the case without partial precompression...pain to do so I switched to Longshot.

I first found a link to Hodgdons 10mm data on Firingline or thehighroad forums sometime ago when Longshot was first introduced and did all my clocking from a Kimber converted .40 and a KKM barreled Glock, btw Glocks are famous for poor chamber support (kaboom!) so those in the know that just have to have the Glock platform in 10mm or .45 Super get either the KKM or BarSto barrel.

The 1911 platform adapts well to high pressure cartridges like the .45 Super/460 Rowland (cheap .451 Detonics knock off) and the 10mm because we can change timing lock up with main spring and recoil spring weights, the Glock only has the recoil spring.

FYI, the 800x loads showed no increase in velocity going from a stock Glock 20 to the Glock six inch.
As for pressures? I'd assume if the load is published then the load is within SAAMI.

In my mind 10mm vs the wildcat .45s was an interesting diversion but a .45 is still a .45 and a 10mm is still a .40. One can debate the SD (sectional density) advantage of the .40 or load a .45 230gn to 1400fps and compare vs various barriers?

Which load delivers more flesh destruction, a .45 185@1550 or a .40 135gn@1800fps?

Recoil control becomes a major factor at these levels, a compensated commander 1911 in single or double stack in either caliber.. only a Grand!!??

Check with Kevin at KKM, could be he offers a comped barrel for the small Glock 29?

MTMilitiaman
June 12, 2008, 04:38 AM
SAAMI maximum average chamber pressure for the 10mm Auto is 37,500 PSI, IIRC.

Double Tap Ammunition lists a load with a 135 gr Nosler JHP @ 1600 fps from a 4.6 inch G20. I think it is unlikely that you'd be able to handload it any hotter. Mike does a pretty good job with it.

I guess I missed where the interest in the 135 gr load came from, though. Unless you just want to most velocity you can get, or you don't want to overpenetrate on 40 pound stray dogs, there are better options, IMO. For a strictly defensive round, I would lean towards the 165 or 180 gr Gold Dots. The 180 gr load is my favorite, as it also provides enough momentum and sectional density to have impressive penetration--enough so that I can trust it against black bear and mountain lion when hiking. If it was a dedicated woods gun, I would go even heavier to the 200 gr XTP or even the FMJFP. If you have an aftermarket barrel with conventional rifling and are looking for serious penetration, Double Tap also offers some 220 gr hard cast loads.

All in all, the 135 gr loads, I feel, are the least useful. You'll get the most utility out of the 10mm Auto with the 165 to 200 gr bullets, with the 180 gr @ ~1300 fps being the best compromise between expansion and penetration.

btw Glocks are famous for poor chamber support (kaboom!) so those in the know that just have to have the Glock platform in 10mm or .45 Super get either the KKM or BarSto barrel.

Well...yes and no.

Mike McNett reportedly worked up his Double Tap loads with a completely stock Glock 20. If the rounds are within SAAMI specs, the Glock barrel is more than enough to take a lifetime of shooting. However, if you plan to reload your cases, the stock barrel tends to decrease case life. Therefore, I did put a KKM in mine when I started handloading. But this was to preserve case life more than protect against kBs. Again, the factory Glock barrel offers more than enough support to easily handle any load within SAAMI specs.

R&J
June 12, 2008, 01:36 PM
Lets look at Double Tap .357 Magnum & 10 mm...

1) .357 Magnum, 1600 fps, 710 ft. lbs., 125 gr Gold Dot

2) 10 mm, 1600 fps, 767 ft. lbs., 135 gr Nosler

3) .357 Magnum, 1400 fps, 688 ft. lbs., 158 gr Gold Dot

4) 10mm, 1475 fps, 750 ft. lbs, 155 gr Gold Dot

5) .357 Magnum, 1200 fps, 640 ft. lbs., 200 gr Hardcast

6) 10mm, 1300 fps, 750 ft. lbs., 200 gr Hardcast

I believe them's apples & apples! But the 10 mm has a slight edge on the .357 magnum.

Then there's the whole sixteen shots thingy! :neener:

And a nice slide to eat up some recoil! ;)

Safe To Say...

10 mm = To .44 Magnum? No. :uhoh:

10 mm = To .41 Magnum? Maybe. :scrutiny:

10 mm = To .357 Magnum? Hell, yes! :D

--Ray

R&J
June 12, 2008, 01:52 PM
I guess I missed where the interest in the 135 gr load came from, though. Unless you just want to most velocity you can get, or you don't want to overpenetrate on 40 pound stray dogs, there are better options, IMO. For a strictly defensive round, I would lean towards the 165 or 180 gr Gold Dots.

Fair enough.

The interest was based on a service record of proven stopping power in .357 magnum revolvers. It's effective against two legged beasties.

Independent tests on Double Tap's 135 grain Nosler, numbers aside, include the observation, "Nasty".

The light, fast frangible rounds have their place for SD in an urban setting, where overpenetration is a real consideration. Not that any of us would miss... :rolleyes:

The thinking holds for 10 mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP.

I use the DT 185 gr Gold Dots in my G21. The 165 grain variety are discontinued.

--Ray

MTMilitiaman
June 12, 2008, 04:37 PM
I just tend to prefer to error on the safe side in favor of penetration. My experience hunting tells me that animals rarely tell the difference in a little lost energy, and I have seen animals absorb a lot more energy than any handgun can hang with, so I think the effects of shock are over rated. In my experience, unless you take out the CNS, then animals bleed to death, and they bleed better with exit wounds. Your experience may vary, but I very much prefer exit wounds, even at the risk of so called "over penetration."

That's why I prefer the 180 gr Gold Dots in my 10mm. Excellent expansion (some would say too much for the bullet design) and from what I have seen, around 16 inches of penetration in gelatin.

glock21detroit
June 13, 2008, 02:00 AM
rtfm and the woodsman listen, every time i read a post about the 45 vs the 10, bears always come into the conversation. so if the 10mm is stopping bears and the 45 acp can't, then why is the 45 acp always being compared to large game calibers. as i said before i'm in the city, which you do have people on drugs with guns and i feel thats comparable to a bear comming at you and i'm not trying to shooting zombies, just trying to make bad guys one and if my 45 acp isn't good enough, i just wanted to know, is that so bad?

roscoe
June 13, 2008, 03:25 AM
why is the 45 acp always being compared to large game calibers
I don't think it is. It is a good round, but slow and low-pressure.

The Tourist
June 13, 2008, 03:32 AM
I was settled on the .45, but I keep seeing everyone talk up the 10mm as being such a powerful round.

If you are a reloader, then I would pick the 10mm. There are some great commercial hunting and SD loads for the 10mm, and as a reloader, you can load it down to duplicate any .45 ACP load.

If you are not a reloader, I would go with the .45 ACP. Right over the counter you can buy traditional ball ammo, and yet modern defense loads offer a number of +P loads that should cover any emergency.

I do not believe the 10mm is that "flexible." To obtain the same wide range of loads, I think you still have to load them yourself. I also believe the value of the 10mm is in loading it down, not up.

jlh26oo
June 13, 2008, 04:39 AM
Item No. 19A/20 180 gr. 1400 fps, 783 ft. lbs.
Item No. 19C/20 158 gr. 1475 fps, 763 ft. lbs.
Item No. 19D/20 125 gr. 1700 fps, 802 ft. lbs.





But regarding the topic of this thread (R.O.F.L. at herding cats)- since I'm a .45 guy (like how it handles, high performance at low pressure, ammo and platforms available, and relative performance if it fails to expand), I'd take the GLOCK 21.

I also understand this choice leaves me unprepared if I'm ever robbed, by a grizzly. :(

Northalius
June 13, 2008, 09:20 AM
jih, going by those numbers, you quoted the fps stats from BB's 6" barrel revolver tests:

6 inch Ruger GP 100

a. Item 19D/20-125gr. Speer Uni Core = 1707 fps

LINK: http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#357

Scroll down a little when the page loads; look at number 4 on the list. There it is.

And remember, as MT said: They count semi-auto barrels with the chamber included; whereas the revolver barrel is the whole barrel, no chamber included. So, with EQUAL rifling barrel length, the 10mm is more powerful than a .357 Magnum.

If the DT 10mm 135 gr. can hit 1600 fps out of a 4.6 SEMI AUTO barrel, then it can easily hit over 1700 fps with a 6" SEMI AUTO barrel. If the semi auto barrel was LITERALLY 6" long in rifling, then we'd probably be looking at 1800+ fps from DoubleTaps' 10mm 135 gr. rounds.

I'll look for the link later (gotta go to work soon) where I saw a guy loading his own 10mm to hit 1830 fps (tops). Within SAAMI specs? Probably not (:D); but it's still capable of much more than what others think is all I'm saying. And the guy shooting his seemed to have no problems; maybe he used strong brass, and had a well supported barrel? ;)

jlh26oo
June 13, 2008, 10:57 AM
The B.B. velocities for .357mag were using a 6" revolver, and 5" 1911 for 10mm. O.T.O.H., the D.T. 10mm velocities listed were using a 4.6" polygonally rifled barrel (I.E. the GLOCK 20), while those listed for .357mag D.T. were only through a 4.0" conventionally rifled barrel.

While both offer exceptional performance and versatility, if I were between .357mag and 10mm, I would make the decision based on personal platform preference. However, between the choices in the O.P., I would probably take the GLOCK 21!

Hope this helps.

mag
June 20, 2008, 02:44 PM
Ultima-Ratio said....
Look a bit harder boomer, the Hodgedon manual lists a 135gn load using 800x that I've clocked at over 1700fps and somewhere on their website as data for Longshot that get high numbers also.



I've used that 800-X load in my Glock with KKM 6" barrel and got over 1800 fps with a 135 gr bullet. Another 800-X load yields over 1600 fps with a 155 gr bullet.

Mike G.

jrswanson1
August 1, 2008, 01:27 PM
I just looked on Hodgdon's web site for that 800-X load, but they are not listing it for the 135gr bullets. Also, they are not showing the full power loads for 800-X on the other bullets :confused: . In fact, they are not showing max loads for any of the IMR powders. Anyone have the data for these powders?

Jim

glock21detroit
September 9, 2008, 02:32 AM
just traded in my glock 21 for a glock 20, i don't really regret the trade, becaues i was buying winchester rangers at $50 a box. the 10mm is more for practice loads, but the power your getting with double tap or handloads, i couldn't resist.

ndh87
September 9, 2008, 01:36 PM
I like the 45 better personally, ammo is half the price (31 bucks for 100 rounds of WWB at walmart vs. 25 for 50rounds of 10mm at a gun shop)

Also, the .357 sig comes very close to 10mm power levels
.357 sig115 gr JHP 1,550 ft/s 614 ft·lbf

10mm 180 gr XTP HP 1,350 ft/s 728 ft·lbf

.45 ACP 230 gr FMJ-FP 1,010 ft/s 521 ft·lbf

personally I like a round that leaves a bigger hole. And a 1911 in .45 is what i shoot best. the +p loadings arent far off of .357 sig too.

Clean97GTI
September 9, 2008, 07:26 PM
ndh, I don't think I'd call the .357Sig load you posted close to a 10mm.
a bullet 65 grains heavier and delivering more than 100 lb-ft more energy is quite a step up.

KBintheSLC
September 9, 2008, 07:43 PM
The .45 is great for humans, but in the woods I would take the 10mm Auto over the .45 any day. With 200 FMJ-FP moving at 1200+ FPS and 700+ FPE, you will get the penetration you need to stop large thick skinned beasts quickly. The penetration of the .45 with FMJ will only be about 70% of that of the 10mm.

BlindJustice
September 9, 2008, 08:12 PM
Blackcat - what part of the country ar you in, thinking about
a Griz encounter? THey're only in the High North Cascades and
Rockies, and north into Canada and ALaska N. Calif and north
into ORegon and Wash. STate Cascades it's Black Bear

I'm at Pullman, home of Wash. State University - School's got an
enclosure and shed for 3 or 4 Grizzilies on the E. SIde of
Campus....on the way to the airport THey are BIG
the Vet school is studying diseases they catch in the wild.

I've heard the Glock 21 has a different shape grip among the
Glocks. ? Dunnoh, my carry piece is a full size 1911 .45 ACP

oh, here....
These are ALL Speer Gold Dot JHP
CUrrent offerings
$32.95/50 $29.95/50 $33.95/50
.45 ACP ----- .40 S&W -- 10MM Auto
185 gr 155 gr. 155 gr.
1225 fps 1,275 fps 1,475 fps
616 ft lbs 60 ft. lbs 750 ft lbs
200 gr. 165 gr. 165 gr.
1125 fps 1,200 fps 1,400 fps
562 Ft lbs 528 fl lbs 718 ft lbs
230 gr. 180 gr. 180 gr.
1,010 fps 1,100 fps 1,300 fps
521 ft lbs 484 ft lbs 676 ft lbs

FYI - Speed of SOUnd = approx. 1,120 FPS
It makes a difference to your ears inside for HD

Randall
-

BlindJustice
September 9, 2008, 09:17 PM
SOme of y'all are boasting about the lightest weight bullets for a
calilber/cartridge combo. Problem, is the makers of the hollowpoints
make them for the most popular cartridges, and the velocity envelope
for those same cartridges..... when you put the same hollowpoints in the
higher capacity cases and go MAX. the bullets don't penetrate much
but blow up - Mike at DT just came out with a .40 Super at 1750 fps, and
states great HD because it won't over penetrate, heck if it hit sheet rock i
it would probably fragment.

I like the Hornady XTPs in the mid to heavier bullet weights going toward
fairly warm but not max. for controllabiltiy, as well as penetration

To each thier own,

FWIW I like my Bar Sto in .400 CorBon for my 1911 with 155 & 165 gr.
at 1,350 and 1275 fps respectively if I want a flatter shooting load, but the Hornady +P is hard to find, so ordering DT Gold DOts is a great
HD/SD option. 200 rds is only $11 S&H.from Utah for .45 ACP - last
non - COrBOn .400 CorBon went T.U. I guess so I'll have to have
some loaded up..

Randall

glock21detroit
September 18, 2008, 01:22 AM
ndh87, the 10mm can shoot a 200gr bullet at 1250 +. the 357 sig can't and is not engineered to shoot a bullet that big or hit velocities that fast. i like the sig but the 10mm just kicks the sig out of the disscussion.

ChCx2744
April 11, 2009, 09:06 AM
to all of you who are comparing 10mm to .357 magnum, .357 sig, .41 magnum and .44 magnum...the title is "10mm vs .45 ACP." the guy asked a question so lets answer it for him, not go off into our own little schematics of prooving who's "inquired ballistic opinions" are correct or not.

back on subject:

i'd prefer the 10mm's SPECS over the .45ACP's SPECS, but from what i know, .45ACP ammo seems cheaper and more availible than 10mm. if you have the patience and money for 10mm, get the 10mm hands down; if you dont, you wont be disappointed with a .45ACP. the way things are going nowadays with ammo and such, i'd opt to get the .45ACP, just to save yourself some trouble. the 10mm is still the superior choice when it comes to ballistics and power though.

Judah Ben-Hur
April 12, 2009, 12:37 AM
This picture puts it all in perspective (you knew it was coming) :neener: ...

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/1034/10mmu.jpg







... but the .45 ACP rounds are more easily obtainable over the counter and any 10mm stuff you do find will be downloaded crap, I mean the stuff around these parts. :banghead:

Damon555
April 12, 2009, 12:50 AM
The worst part is the fact that you guys are answering a post that is 4 1/2 years old.......

Judah Ben-Hur
April 12, 2009, 12:58 AM
Its late, cut us some slack. ;-)

alaskanativeson
April 12, 2009, 05:03 AM
Not sure if true, but a poster on a forum who lives in Alaska said the Glock 20 is pretty popular in Alaska. Guess that says a lot, huh?
It does. I don't think it was me who posted that, though I'm quite pleased with my Glock 20. If it's popular up here it's likely because it's a good reliable weapon that has the power to go though the layers a two legged attacker is likely to be wearing up here. When it comes to defense against four-legged ones, especially those with big claws and teeth, few people up here would willingly depend solely on a handgun for defense, and if it's absolutely necessary it's almost certainly going to be a wheelgun. The minmum caliber that's going to be considered is 44. My Super Redhawk in .454 Casull is as light as I'd like to carry, and that's only if my wife has the Mossy 590 with Brenneke slugs.

ChCx2744
April 21, 2009, 01:19 PM
10mm > .45ACP o <- (big period)

s0nspark
July 19, 2009, 01:33 PM
Sorry to be so late to the party here but I have a question that relates...

Wouldn't 10 rounds of 180gr 10mm be lighter to carry in a G29 than 10 rounds of 230gr +P .45 in a similar G30? Would it be a noticeable difference (i.e. several ounces)?

Just curious...

PO2Hammer
July 19, 2009, 03:19 PM
Not enough of a difference to choose a caliber over.

thorazine
July 19, 2009, 04:35 PM
Isn't double tap claiming expansion of a little over one inch?!

For the 10MM -- 165GR GDHP?


Is so that's some AMAZING expansion.

Dan-O
July 20, 2009, 01:01 AM
That cartoon is worth a thousand words. 10mm is king.

snakeplisskin11212
August 7, 2010, 09:48 PM
I bought the Glock 21 first and fell in love. I then bought the Glock 20 and never looked back. I use doubletap ammo in both and have 6 inch barrels on both. But a handgun is my last defense. I know the particulars on the ammo I use 10mm 200gr wfngc hardcast and 45acp :o230 gr jhp, yet for wild animals I stick with my Savage 308 Tactical. I grew up learning an old saying that I truely believe in. "If you keep putting that ol hot lead on them, then they gonna go down." I love both of my handguns, but prefer the Glock 21 as my first choice. It's a man stopper. What a person who owns a gun needs to learn is to hit what you are shooting at. That means practce. I shoot the ammo I carry. That may be more expensive, but I know what they sound like, how they feel in my hand, and how they react when I pull the trigger, Oh I do have a Para Ordinance P14/45 Limited 5 inch as a BUG. So I would suggest going to the range, check out the 45 and 10 and test what works for you. For me I carry 185gr 45acp doubletap on the streets, and 230 gr doubletap jhp in the woods. That's because some critters are scarier than others .

PO2Hammer
August 8, 2010, 12:09 AM
Ok, it's settled then.
Now this thread can rest for another couple years.

dcortez82
January 23, 2013, 11:29 PM
I think .45 acp has an advantage over 10mm in terms of overpenetration in home defense.

arise chicken!

flyskater
January 24, 2013, 04:34 AM
This thread is almost 10 years old. Resurrecting this thread won't bring you back 10 years younger.

ku4hx
January 24, 2013, 07:27 AM
This thread is almost 10 years old. Resurrecting this thread won't bring you back 10 years younger.
Yeah, and like a booger on your fingertip, some things are just hard to let go of.

mbruce
January 24, 2013, 08:01 AM
I read this and went out and bought a 10mm and a .45acp...duct taped them together (3M brand for added adhesion and strength) and now have an awesome side by side. problem solved

ku4hx
January 24, 2013, 08:26 AM
And with each shot (shots?) you get FDTOE. Fastest Double Tap On Earth.

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