Double Maduro
February 28, 2003, 01:39 PM
In a thread here, I think it was here, a couple of weeks ago someone said they were arrested for carrying at the airport. Someone else said that it was legal to carry at the airport as long as you don't try to go through the security gate.

Just got my app for the Oregon CHL and it states that it is against federal law to carry on airport property.

Hope this saves somebody some inconvenience.

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ballistic gelatin
February 28, 2003, 01:49 PM
WASHINGTON - Delta Air Lines will begin testing a new government plan for air security next month that will check background information and assign a threat level to everyone who buys a ticket for a commercial flight.

The system, ordered by Congress after the Sept. 11 attacks, will gather much more information on passengers than has been done previously. Delta will try it out at three undisclosed airports, and a comprehensive system could be in place by the end of the year.

Transportation officials say a contractor will be picked soon to build the nationwide computer system, which will check such things as credit reports and bank account activity and compare passenger names with those on government watch lists.

Civil liberties groups and activists are objecting to the plan, seeing the potential for unconstitutional invasions of privacy and for database mix-ups that could lead to innocent people being branded security risks.

"This system threatens to create a permanent blacklisted underclass of Americans who cannot travel freely," said Katie Corrigan, a lawyer for the American Civil Liberties Union.

There also is concern that the government is developing the system without revealing how information will be gathered and how long it will be kept.

Advocates say the system will weed out dangerous people while ensuring law-abiding citizens aren't given unnecessary scrutiny.

Transportation officials say CAPPS II — Computer Assisted Passenger Prescreening System — will use databases that already operate in line with privacy laws and won't profile based on race, religion or ethnicity.

"What it does is have very fast access to existing databases so we can quickly validate the person's identity," Transportation Secretary Norman Mineta (news - web sites) said.

An oversight panel, which will include a member of the public, is being formed. The Transportation Security Administration will set up procedures to resolve complaints by people who say they don't belong on the watch lists.

Transportation Department spokesman Chet Lunner said a Federal Register notice saying the background information will be stored for 50 years is inaccurate. He said such information will be held only for people deemed security risks.

Jay Stanley, an ACLU spokesman, was skeptical.

"When it says in print, 50 years, we'd like to see something else in print to counter that," he said.

Airlines already do rudimentary checks of passenger information, such as method of payment, address and date the ticket was reserved. The system was developed by Northwest Airlines in the early 1990s to spot possible hijackers.

Unusual behavior, such as purchasing a one-way ticket with cash, is supposed to prompt increased scrutiny at the airport.

Capt. Steve Luckey, an airline pilot who helped develop the system, said CAPPS II will help discern a passenger's possible intentions before he gets on a plane.

Unlike the current system, in which data stays with the airlines' reservation systems, the new setup will be managed by TSA. Only government officials with proper security clearance will be able to use it.

CAPPS II will collect data and rate each passenger's risk potential according to a three-color system: green, yellow, red. When travelers check in, their names will be punched into the system and their boarding passes encrypted with the ranking. TSA screeners will check the passes at checkpoints.

The vast majority of passengers will be rated green and won't be subjected to anything more than normal checks, while yellow will get extra screening and red won't fly.

Paul Hudson, executive director of the Aviation Consumer Action Project, which advocates airline safety and security, is skeptical the system will work.

"The whole track record of profiling is a very poor to mixed one," Hudson said, noting incorrect profiles of the Unabomber and the Washington-area snipers.

Nine to 11 of the 19 hijackers on Sept. 11 were flagged by the original CAPPS, but weren't searched because the system gave a pass to passengers who didn't check their bags, Hudson said. People without checked bags are now included.

February 28, 2003, 01:54 PM
What land of the free?:confused: and the home of the very brave and the subjects

February 28, 2003, 02:01 PM
The whole airport security thing is nothing but a feelgood panacea. I mean, ferchrissake, they're closing off an highway exit here in St. Louis (STL) for "security."

What they're doing is driving the airlines out of business because people are driving rather than flying. I suspect that we'll have our own version of Aeroflot within the next 10 or so years.

Frankly, commercial aviation is probably the safest place to be, transportation wise, assuming no threat from man-portable SAMS, of course. You could pull out the "security checkpoints" and all that crap, and let folks carry pocketknives, box cutters, whatever, like pre-9/11, and there wouldn't be any problems. As is, if a terrorist tries anything, all the passengers can do is stomp 'em to death and then pull off parts. And with the mindset of the _average_ american airline passenger, that's what will happen. Terrorists aren't going to do the airplane thing again. Because the passengers have changed, from a hostage mentality to an ain't gonna happen again mentality.

Double Maduro
February 28, 2003, 02:02 PM
The same article was in the Portland Oregonian this morning.

Big Brother IS watching and is concerned about your safety.

Things are getting truly scary.

However they have stopped the random search of cars at airports.

All we can hope is that the Supreme court takes a look at these cases when they get there.

February 28, 2003, 04:04 PM
What is scary is a few freinds of mine were at the airport waiting to board their plane whan the lady at the ticket check came on the loudspeaker and asked for "volunteers for a random search".

February 28, 2003, 04:09 PM
I'm going to say that it is not against federal law to carry in non-secure areas of the airport until someone cites the law.

February 28, 2003, 04:33 PM
"It is unlawful to go with a firearm: in a secured area of an airport;"

Comes from Texas State Law - I'm with MoonMan on this one, unless someone can cite the law I would say it is legal.

February 28, 2003, 04:51 PM
A week ago I went to pickup my nephew at the airport in Louisville, KY. Not thinking that there was a high level alert on I had a 45 Springfield ultra compact on. Had no intention of taking it into the airport building, figured I would leave it in the car. Hit the off ramp to the airport and saw a sign "Security Checkpoint Ahead.". They were searching vehicles half a mile from the parking lot. After a few elevated heart beats I figured I would just tell them I had it. Got to the traffic cones and they waved me through !. Picked up my nephew and quietly departed the area.

Double Maduro
February 28, 2003, 06:00 PM
Both the instructor of my safety class and the paperwork from the state say the CHL does not entitle me to carry on airport property.

The wording is such that it makes it look like federal law. Maybe it varies from state to state?

If someone knows for sure, I would like to know.

If I made a mistake I am sorry.

Surely we have more than one attorney here.

February 28, 2003, 06:08 PM
ballistic gelatin, I read the Delta story this morning. Once again, it looks like a lot of folks are willing to give up personal freedom/privacy for security. Shame on us all! Many of the things being done in the name of "War on Terror" scare me. The fact that a lot of it comes from my fellow conservatives scares me even more. I've been a Republican since 1972. Maybe they have left me, and it is time I quit argueing with my Liberterian friends and join them.

February 28, 2003, 06:28 PM
I'm sure someone will jump down my throat if I'm wrong.. er.. I mean correct me if I'm wrong, but in KY, I don't think the term property includes parking lots.
As long as the weapon is not brandished or removed from the vehicle.
Part of our CCW laws allow carry onto a school parking lot, as long as those requirements are met.
The idea is that restricting from a parking lot, restricts you from carrying all together.
For example, you are allowed to carry onto courthouse property (the parking lot) but not into the building. The parking lot being non secure with the building being secure.

Art Eatman
February 28, 2003, 07:42 PM
Not that I have all that much occasion to travel by commercial aviation, but No Mas! I won't subject myself to that idiocy and degradation.


Ol' Badger
February 28, 2003, 08:40 PM
Dulles.... They already stop folks who names even look the same as those on the "List". They are already installing ID Checkers(Can verify Fake IDs from good ones) at the ticket booths!
But thats at the same Airport that allows its (Athority) employees to hunt on it. It's a weird world and the TSA thinks it the new God. I heard from LEO that TSA try saying to them when they get pulled over for speeding that they have immunity and that they have to let them go! I myself will never fly ever again. Mohammed is loading the bags on the plains and Leroy is looking tired at the check point and thinks he's a Special Agent or something. My advise is to drive. But hell, I bet that soon they will have check points at every state line!

February 28, 2003, 08:42 PM
I just took my CCW class 5 days ago and, in Alaska at least, you can carry anywhere except for the sterile areas of the airport.

Standing Wolf
February 28, 2003, 09:44 PM
In exactly two words: fire Mineta!

February 28, 2003, 09:47 PM
In Kentucky, the law is that you cannot carry a concealed firearm into "any area of an airport where people and property are inspected".

(The text in quotes was typed directly from my KY CCW handbook.)

I understand that this means you can't go through the metal detectors but you should be able to be in baggage claim, etc. - Just not back where the terminals are.

However, just for the heck of it, I asked 3 security guards at SDF about it. They said NO GUNS ANYWHERE on airport property except, of course, for security guards.

LOGISTAR: "Is that an absolute? No exceptions?"


LOGISTAR: "So you are telling me it is illegal to bring a firearm in and check it at the counter since I would be carrying a weapon on airport property."

SECURITY: "No that is different." :banghead:

I think they just make up laws as they go along and quote non-existent ones if they want to.

I think it should be a LAW that any location where CCW is prohibited should be posted WITH a reference to that law (whether State, Federal, or otherwise.)


Double Maduro
March 1, 2003, 02:13 AM
In Oregon, we can carry in public schools and private ones unless posted.

March 1, 2003, 02:52 AM
Nine to 11 of the 19 hijackers on Sept. 11 were flagged by the original CAPPS, but weren't searched because the system gave a pass to passengers who didn't check their bags, Hudson said. People without checked bags are now included.

So now they super check you if you DON'T check a bag. Don't they realize folks know what causes increased security? I KNOW when I fly one way I will be checked more. If you are hijacker you just buy round trip ticket "$80 more" and buy a second hand bag at good will and toss some rags in it.
Anyone who thinks security at airports is more then feel good must be at other airports them me.

ballistic gelatin
March 2, 2003, 09:13 PM
Basically I think it sucks. You could always avoid it by not flying but here's what's gonna happen. If it works with the airlines, and it will, they will implement it in all kinds of places. I would not be surprised if they tie in the gun owner database with it all. They're looking to connect the dots right? Why would they deliberately leave out this vital piece of information. All known gun owners will be placed into the "yellow" category = some risk. Then they will track everywhere you use your credit card to eat, buy gas, whatever. It's an invasion of privacy!

I just want to know what I can do to stop it.

Did I mention that I was flying Delta this coming week for my 10th Wedding Anniversary? I didn't know about the database check thing until after I booked our flight. I just can't win.

It's the beginning of the end people, the beginning of the end.:(

March 14, 2003, 02:47 PM
I think they just make up laws as they go along and quote non-existent ones if they want to.


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