I was denied CCW in MPLS MN.


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Diesle
February 28, 2003, 04:19 PM
I was contacted today by the issuing authority in the city of MPLS. Some officer acting on behalf of the chief.... He began by asking me why I felt I needed the permit. I reiterated what I had already indicated on my application. Said that I a. Transport expensive equipment around the city as a requirement of my job and b. that I am expected to be on call 24X7 for work and be able go to any of the facilities at all hours.

He told me that I failed to supply the required 'letter' that explained why I would need the permit. As far as I know, no letter is required. Just a statement on the application of my need.

So, I suspected that he was asking for additional documentation to prolong the permit process, likely indefinitely. As long as he is 'in process' he would not have to meet the 21 day requirement. I basically asked him if that is what he was up to and he basically admitted, yes it is.

I also asked him what would satisfy the dept. requirements for issuing the permit. He explained to me, as I’ve heard before, that unless I have a job that 'requires' the carrying of a pistol such as a security guard, or unless I had already been the victim of some violent crime and felt that the perp. was likely to find me again, that I would not be able to satisfy any requirement and would not be given a permit.

So, in MPLS I either need to have already put my life on the line or I need to be protecting someone else’s stuff by profession.

ARRRRRGGGGGGG!!!!!!!

I don’t care if I do turn blue, I’m absolutely holding my breath waiting to have the MPPA pass into law this year. So many other people in MPLS and St. Paul have much more ‘serious’ need than I do and it makes my blood boil to hear that my POS state government has rendered them potentially defenseless.

Diesle

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Blackhawk
February 28, 2003, 04:45 PM
The logic behind "You must have already survived an encounter where you needed a gun in order to show you need a gun" never fails to escape me.

The criminal element is passing up a good opportunity in those venues. They should offer a service where one of them drives by, yells your name in the hearing of witnesses, and takes a shot near you harmlessly hitting a nearby wall or fence for a small fee. You could attach the police report with your application.

Never mind. I'm being stupid -- almost as stupid as the hassle you have to face to get your permit.... :cuss:

gk1
February 28, 2003, 04:46 PM
And under which of these provisions was Gov. Ventura's permit issued?:fire: I believe that you may have grounds for a suit there, if you could get the reason for the denial documented, and could expect fairness from the court (:rolleyes:).

Sorry to hear about your situation. At least you can be denied. We in MO can't even apply, as there's no such thing (yet, hopefully).

George

MrKandiyohi
February 28, 2003, 05:08 PM
I live out near Willmar. Same problem with the police chief and sheriff here. Unless someone is actually bashing you head in at the time of submitting your application, you won't get one.

I received my rejection notice last week.

CZ-75
February 28, 2003, 05:14 PM
Any THR members going to volunteer to shoot Diesle in some extremity with a .22 short so he can claim to be the victim of violent crime? :uhoh:

Will the wonders of the workings of the bureaucratic mind never cease?

Diesle
February 28, 2003, 05:18 PM
If it helps, Ill sign a release form in advance...


Hmmm, can I collect disability on that as well..... better take the pinky toe....! The left one... I like the right one too much!


Diesle

Double Maduro
February 28, 2003, 06:06 PM
used to be that way in Oregon too with each county sherrif deciding what the criteria were for their county.

Now we shall issue.

AR-10
February 28, 2003, 06:19 PM
This is going to sound lame, and it may be quite a stretch, but it might just work.

In Iowa, self defense is not justifiable grounds for needing a carry permit, unless you are in serious danger of being attacked or need it for a high risk job transporting valuables. Almost nobody can qualify using those parameters. If you put self defense on your application as the reason you are applying, it will be turned down.

Most permits in this state are issued for convenient transport to and from firing ranges. This is because the transport laws are so screwy that anyone driving a pickup has a very hard time loading up the vehicle and heading to the gun club without breaking one law or another.

My permit says;

Justification for Issuance: Hunting, Target & Transportation

Restrictions: Invalid when using or consuming alcohol or illegal drugs

Notice it does not say anything about only being valid for transportation purposes under the Restrictions catagory. That's because it is a normal CCW permit. The state just doesn't want you to get the idea that they condone your using it to save your life. They are willing to recognize, however, that it is hard to be law abiding when transorting firearms under certain conditions.

Perhaps you could persue getting one from this position. Become well versed in the transportation laws of your state. Talk to local law enforcement about the laws. Can you satisfy the law driving an open box pickup, a van, or an SUV with guns and ammo heading for the shooting range? Talk to the Sherrif's Department, your city councilmembers, your state representatives. Explain that you would like to be law abiding, but it is not easy when you have to transport guns and ammo seperately and that means you have to strap the ammo on top of your SUV. ;)
In the rain.:(

Like I said, it is a lame backdoor approach. Embarrassing that I will resort to letting the state "grant" me a right using such pathetic justification. But it beats being denied.

F4GIB
February 28, 2003, 06:21 PM
The primary reason for granting permits in Metro Minnesota appears to be that you are a high school buddy or "sex partner" of the chief. It's all pull and has no fairness element at all. Most chief's will readily admit that they just ignore the "personal safety hazard" reason for a permit in state law. They are proud to break the law when it suits them. They neither protect nor serve the ordinary folks of their towns.

I think the recent numbers are something like this. Permits in the state 13,000. Permits in the Metro areo 150. You can't get one to save your life but you can get one to save someone else's money. How can that be when you can't use a gun to protect money; only to protect life. That's the DFL's idea of sound public policy.

Loach
February 28, 2003, 06:31 PM
I escaped Minnesota last spring and now live in the shall-issue state of South Carolina. When I was living in Bloomington, MN I never bothered to apply knowing as all the stories listed here prove, that I would be turned down. I understand that the CCW bills are coming up again this year and stand a better chance of passing. I hoping for all of you that it passes, finally. I may be dreaming, but it sure would be nice if, once it does pass, they have reciprocity with South Carolina. I'm just waiting for the day that I can drive from here to Minneapolis without having to worry about crossing state lines with my CW. Right now, Tennessee, Kentucky and Indiana aren't a problem. Illinois will likely not happen in my lifetime and I'm not sure about what's going on in Wisconsin. :(

Intune
February 28, 2003, 07:33 PM
I saw it as an intrusion that I had to take a class and qualify (shoot) for my CCW here in TN. Now I feel that I should be grateful that there was not more red tape. That is sick! THEY should have to prove that you are unfit to carry a weapon if they find you with one. And if you are a felon, etc., impose an automatic sentence for abusing that right. See where I am going with this? FELONS should be forced to look up the laws to make sure that a weapon on their person is not in violation. Honest citizens, if stopped for a minor infraction and carrying, would have a quick background check performed and then be on their way. A RIGHT not a PERMIT. I am sorry that this is happening to you. What is happening to our country? :fire:

Comrade Bork
February 28, 2003, 07:54 PM
As an expatriate Minnesotan now living in shall-issue Georgia I keep close tabs on the "shall issue" situation there.

I would say your chances of getting it this year are better than they have ever been. If you do not already I suggest you support the organization known as "Concealed Carry Reform Now" (CCRN). See "packing.org" for links.

Two years ago the MN Legislature required that the MN Dept. of Public Safety keep close tabs on the issuance, or not, of CCW's statewide. The second years' report just came out.

"Reasons for seeking permit" in the 7 County Metro area were "Personal Safety", 30.4% and "Occupational Need", 69.6%. By contrast, in the 80 other non-Metro counties, "Personal Safety" requests ran 71.2% and "Occupational Need", 28.8%. Almost exactly opposites.

The denial rate for CCW permits in the 7 County Metro area runs 15.8%. Of those, 12.2% are for "no occupational hazard" and 2.9% were "no evidence of proper firearms training".

By contrast, the denial rate in the other 80 counties in MN only runs 5.2%. Only 3.0% due to "no hazard" and 1.4% for "no training".

It is quite clear that outside the Metro area, the rest of the State of MN is already effectively "shall issue". If you live in the Metro area, you are probably screwed. As if you didn't already know!

If the MPPA is enacted in its' present form I think you are going to like it. CCWs will havec a 4 year term vs 1 year now. For us non-residents, We will be able to get one from any Sheriff. If we already have CCWs from other states it does have a unique reciprocity provision. The law "starts out" recognizing the CCWs from all other states. The government of MN is required to study the CCW laws of other states and publish a specific list of states whose CCW laws are not roughly equivalent to MN's. If your state is not on the list, your CCW is good. Much better than the drag-your-feet system of "mutual reciprocity agreements" most States are stuck with.

As MPPA will probably include a training requirement whereas Georgia does not I expect that GA will probably be one of the "excluded" states. If so, I will still have my FL, AZ, and UT CCWs that will probably be OK to cover me when I return home to visit family.

QuickDraw
February 28, 2003, 08:14 PM
One question I've always had was what happens when you are denied?
Can you re-apply in another county(if you move) without
any problems?
Here in the S.F. bay area,its immpossible to get a ccw,but in
Northern Cal. its fairly easy.I would like to apply and see what
kind of lame excuse they give,but not if it ruins future chances

(I may move North :D )


QuickDraw

MarineTech
February 28, 2003, 08:43 PM
Actually, I've seen this before.

I have an old Marine Corps buddy that lives in Minneapolis. He has been trying since he got out of the Marines in 92 to get a carry permit from MPLS, with no success. He has even had one officer come out and say that there was no way he was going to get one.

I went out to visit him and his wife last summer. I showed him my Maine state carry permit and he just could not get over the fact that Maine was a "shall issue" state and that I got one so easy. He even had me show all his friends and explain just how easy it was.

From what I hear, it's much more likely to get a carry permit in Northern Minnesota and the rural parts of the state. St Paul or Minneapolis is just about impossible unless your a buddy of the chief.

Standing Wolf
February 28, 2003, 09:42 PM
I used to work for a law enforcement agency in Minnesota. I saw a deep, abiding, arrogant distrust of civilians and a great deal of anti-Second Amendment bigotry by law enforcement officers from a number of agencies.

ReadyontheRight
February 28, 2003, 09:49 PM
There is ONE gun shop left in the city of Minneapolis. Besides city officials trying to put the owner out of business with various tactics, I just saw on his cable access show that they are not going to renew his CCW permit.

What a messed up city I live in.:cuss:

P95Carry
February 28, 2003, 09:54 PM
This is totally horrendous and unjustifiable ........ I thank heaven for my ''shall issue'' ....... it becomes ever more relished and cherished.

MN should look at PA figures for misuse, abuse or felonious use re CCW's .. it could be written on the back of a postage stamp I'd reckon!

My profound sympathies for your extreme frustrations.

cobb
February 28, 2003, 10:37 PM
Do not believe the denial rate, at least in Minnesota. There are agencies that will not even accept an application without a letter from an employer showing need. So if they won't take your application, you can not be counted in the denial percentages. The rumor is, they do not want to send out denial letter in case you are attacked, and worse, killed. A denial letter could be used in a lawsuit because you where denied the right to legally protect yourself. This maybe sounds far fetched, but I was told face to face by 2 different Chief of Police that they worry if they do issue, and that person has a bad shooting, that the Police Chief would be sued. So I could see a denial letter also causing a concern to the issuing authority.

Diesle
February 28, 2003, 10:46 PM
The denial rate for CCW permits in the 7 County Metro area runs 15.8%

That may be the denial rate, but the nuber of people that dont even try to get the permit is substantially higher. There would be no way to put an accurate number on that unless you polled the entire state...

Diesle

Dogsoldier
February 28, 2003, 11:33 PM
:cuss: :cuss: :cuss: :cuss:

You know what? Those of you in states that deny CCW's for BS reasons should ban together and sue the damn state, the governor and the state's attorny general. The reason this crap goes on is because when you get rejected, we mostly stamp our feet, pout, get on line and bitch. Go find a pro second lawyer, call the NRA, GOA and other groups, the call the press, get media attention, and SUE THE BASTARDS! They have no right to deny you your 2nd Admendment rights. I know this costs money that you may not have, but maybe you can get a fund raiser going at the rod and gun club. :cuss: :cuss:

Zundfolge
March 1, 2003, 12:30 AM
This maybe sounds far fetched, but I was told face to face by 2 different Chief of Police that they worry if they do issue, and that person has a bad shooting, that the Police Chief would be sued.

The irony is that there are significantly more people denied CCWs who are later harmed or killed who could sue then there are people who get CCWs and have a bad shooting that could get the Police Chief sued.

:rolleyes:

Diesle
March 1, 2003, 12:55 AM
The reason this crap goes on is because when you get rejected, we mostly stamp our feet, pout, get on line and bitch.

I guess I wouldnt discount the fact that it is increadably expensive, both in time and money to pusue these issues in court. A game for the rich, well connected, or extreme risk takers... Or, all of the above.


Diesle

Mordwyn
March 1, 2003, 01:21 AM
Any THR members going to volunteer to shoot Diesle in some extremity with a .22 short so he can claim to be the victim of violent crime?

better take the pinky toe....! The left one... I like the right one


Now if I borrow my friends .50 Serbu and if you were to believe the VPC party line I should be able to do it from here. Diesle, just stick your left foot out your front window tomorrow at noon and I'll give it a shot.........



:uhoh:"shot"...... I can't believe I actually said that. :scrutiny:

larry_minn
March 1, 2003, 02:21 AM
MOVE. If you want to keep working on getting your permit check out www.plusp.com They may be able to help you but I doubt it.
Many of the rules are stupid but try to learn them and how to work with them. Good luck.

Minute_Of_Torso
March 1, 2003, 03:38 AM
Wow! Sure am glad I'm in a "shall issue" state. All I had to do was fill out the form, give 'em some prints, and go pay the clerk. Fifteen days later I was finally legal doing what I'd been doing all my life anyway.

I guess I've had my head in the sand as far as other states go, I didn't realize it was that bad in the midwest areas, thought it was all ********** and the east coast.

Jim March
March 1, 2003, 04:09 AM
Dogsoldier:

I'm a Californian, and a veteran of TWO such lawsuits so far, with the third (and this time, final WINNING suit) in the planning stages.

It turns out, the recipe for success calls for suing under equal protection principles, and you MUST HAVE AT LEAST ONE MINORITY PLAINTIFF.

Explaining the whole thing would take too long - read this if you want to understand what's up:

http://www.ninehundred.com/~equalccw/practicalrace.html

tyme
March 1, 2003, 06:02 AM
The logic behind "You must have already survived an encounter where you needed a gun in order to show you need a gun" never fails to escape me.It's sick, especially because an extraordinarily high percentage of gang members would qualify under that criterion.

ReadyontheRight
March 1, 2003, 09:08 AM
http://www.mnccrn.org/

Minnesota Concealed Carry Now is compiling a database of denied applicants for a class-action lawsuit.

Two pro-carry letters to the editor in today's (Red) Star Tribune. Probably to set up a slew of anti letters on Sunday.

PALongbow
March 1, 2003, 09:18 AM
I read these posts and just cringe. Here in Northern PA we go into the Sheriffs office and fill out a two or three page form with refrences while supplying a picture of myself, do the required background check while onsite, pay the $25.00 fee and obtain a CCW permit for five years.

I can't believe all the crap that most states require for CCW licenses. A man should have the right to carry and defend himself and family if the required background checks come back with no history. I just don't understand.

Ron

Diesle
March 1, 2003, 09:20 AM
Larry,

Yes, I got my certificate from Plus P. I trained with Darrel. In fact, I sent Darrel an email on my rejection and his advice at this point is to wait and see what happens with MPPA.

I have one other ave. i might pursue but beyond that, I think we are so close to shall issue now, Im willing to wait a couple more months to see how it plays out.

Thanks for the thoughts all...

Diesle

cobb
March 1, 2003, 09:33 AM
Certifications has nothing to do with the majority of denied applications. I am certified by two different organizations that qualify me under Minnesota state law to teach ccw courses, but I didn't have the magic letter from an employer, so I got denied.
For fun, 3 of us are going to Plus P on the 7th of March and take a class with Darrell, should be interesting from what I hear.

willp58
March 1, 2003, 07:30 PM
I'm in the S. Western tip of NYS and have had a CCW permit since 1961 with NO problems...People think NYS is a gunowners nightmare but that is only in Noo-yauk City.

The judge in Chautauqua County is a gun guy and a hunter..The permit is for life or until revoked. Felony convictions will result in revocation.

Get mug shots, fingerprints, 4 references, clean record and you are IN..

Comrade Bork
March 2, 2003, 12:42 AM
....is that unlike states like Ohio and Wisconsin, MN has no "right to keep and bear arms" provision in the State Constitution. That makes it very difficult to bring a legal action like the one heading to the Ohio Supreme court at this time.

Yeah, the 15.8% denial figure surprised me too when I crunched the number, but I don't doubt your other points about people just not going to the trouble of even applying knowing they will never make it (I was one of those for the last 8 years I lived in Ramsey County!).

I also don't doubt the "if you don't have a letter from your employer we won't even accept your application" business, either. What a great way to keep down having to report those nasty denials to the State! In fact, I would not be surprised to find that they do that specifically so they DON'T have to report the denial. After all, the _approval_ rate is 83.2%. They can point to that and say "We don't need the MPPA. Why, even here in the Metro area 8 out of 10 applications are approved!"

By the way, in addition to my Georgia CCW, I also have seven others, from Florida, Maine, New Hampshire, Florida, Arizone, Utah, and Washington State. What with reciprocity provisions I can legally carry in about 28 states.

28 states trust me to carry a gun, but the state of my birth and upbringing does not. Go figure. Oh well, I think the MPPA has a good chance to change that; if not this year, then possibly next.

TheOtherOne
March 2, 2003, 05:06 PM
I'm a Californian, and a veteran of TWO such lawsuits so far, with the third (and this time, final WINNING suit) in the planning stages.

It turns out, the recipe for success calls for suing under equal protection principles, and you MUST HAVE AT LEAST ONE MINORITY PLAINTIFF.

Explaining the whole thing would take too long - read this if you want to understand what's up:

http://www.ninehundred.com/~equalccw/practicalrace.html
I read through that page and while I can say I didn't understand alot of it, I think I got the gist of it. Good luck and I hope it works!

I've always thought there should be more lawsuits from gun owners. I hear of so many lawsuits that make no sense and make it seem like the courts are being abused, I don't see why we shouldn't use the same system and throw some back to promote what's RIGHT.

Zundfolge
March 2, 2003, 05:28 PM
The left has been using lawsuits to create laws out of thin air for years.

Via law suits they have successfuly taken many of our gun rights, made possible the legal murder of 40 million Americians, taken property rights to protect animals or the environment and reduced asians and whites to second class citizens.

Its time we used their tactics to win back some of our freedom (or someday we'll have to us our guns to do it :( )

samualt
March 3, 2003, 04:08 PM
Part of the whole problem is that they view it as a privilege instead of a right.
I think it should become a nation-wide right (unless your a convicted criminal).
We need a national CCW campaign!

YodaVader
March 3, 2003, 04:25 PM
Wow! I guess we really have it good here in Indiana compared to a lot of states. I moved here from North Carolina over 14 years ago. Was living here for only a few months and appled for a carry permit and received it shortly afterwards.

Unlike NC which required a purchase permit for every handgun you want to buy, the IN handgun permit -which lasts for 4 years - allows you to buy all your handguns in that time period by possessing that one permit. Also in the 3 times I renewed my permit I had no problems.

One time when I was at the police station getting a renewel the cop there stated to me: "It's your RIGHT to be able to carry a gun as long as you are not a crminal." He was pretty adamant about what he said!

Betty
March 3, 2003, 04:40 PM
Oleg tried repeatedly to get his CCW when he lived there. All attempts failed, of course.

:banghead:

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