Norinco Barrel


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Dave Sample
November 27, 2004, 07:02 PM
Took some pictures so you can see some "Clews." This is The Dominic Barrel

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/5823980/74741948.jpg
Figure 1.

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/5823980/74742445.jpg
Figure 2.

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/5823980/74742028.jpg
Figure 3.

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/5823980/74742008.jpg
Figure 4.

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Dave Sample
November 27, 2004, 07:08 PM
let us continue the "Clews"

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/5823980/74742423.jpg
Figure 5.

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/5823980/74742008.jpg
Figure 6.

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/5823980/74742497.jpg
Figure 7.

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/5823980/74742924.jpg
Figure 8.

Dave Sample
November 27, 2004, 07:15 PM
WE are almost done with the "Clews"

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/5823980/74742860.jpg
Figure 9.

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/5823980/74742842.jpg
Figure 10.

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/5823980/74742497.jpg
Figure 11.

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/5823980/74743419.jpg
Figure 12

1911Tuner
November 27, 2004, 07:22 PM
Git'r'done, Cap'n!

Question:

That bushing mark on the bottom or the top? :scrutiny:

Dave Sample
November 27, 2004, 07:28 PM
The top. There is no mark on the bottom. If the bushing were fitted right, it would be all the way around. The Clew? Drop in bushing not so good.

BigG
November 27, 2004, 07:44 PM
Looks like the thingamajig has been repeatedly whacked pretty hard. The whatsis also has a pronounced skidmark. The migaffer has also been impacted, as have the mizzunis. How did I do, Dave? :neener:

JeffC
November 27, 2004, 07:54 PM
Wow....had to backtrack to see where this story originated. Those uppers are beat.

Mill file to the rescue!!! :D

Dave Sample
November 27, 2004, 07:55 PM
You make more sense than most, BigG. You are getting good at this "clew" Stuff!

hnm201
November 27, 2004, 10:47 PM
Well, as I am the "proud" owner of the barrel that is the subject of this thread, I feel that I should post a reply.

- I want to thank Dave for volunteering his services and expertise for this project. And I want to commend him on him in photography skills. I can't get my pictures to turn out nearly as good.

- I also want to explain to everyone, just in case that this isn't obvious, that I plead ignorance. I'm not stupid, but I just don't have the indepth knowledge of or experience with firearms that some of you have. The scary thing is that while I realize that I know so little, I know far more than many people that I know personally who own multiple firearms.

- I can attest that the bushing mark didn't appear until after I dropped in the ed brown bushing (which was suggested by and "ok'd" by the local "gunsmith) and fired 200rds through the gun. Again, this was the same gunsmith that suggested that I not worry about the wear to the top lugs.

- I have come to the conclusion that the local "gunsmith" that suggested the bushing is in fact not only ignorant, but also stupid, since he should know better than to have made this suggestion. Small rant here: You would not believe how arrogant this man is. I've had some misgivings when dealing with him in the past, but this is the last straw. This should come as no surprise considering his reputation, which is either a glowing appraisal from the guys who believe his hype, the so-called hunters who pay his brother to run their dogs and drive their lazy butts around on an atv, or an overwhelmingly negative assessment from the semi-knowledgeable pistol owner/operators who have been burned by him. And to top it off, when I was last in the shop I rand into a long time friend of mine and told him that I would happy to install his Heine sights on his Glock 30, clearly implying that I would do so without charge. The "gunsmith" overheard our conversation and made a very rude remark. My Kuhnhausen manuals will be here Monday. I don't plan on darkening the door of his shop again. If you know of any qualified gunsmiths or more specifically, pistolsmiths, who are looking to relocate, please refer them to me. I can tell them all about the great city of Louisville, Kentucky.

hnm201
November 27, 2004, 11:01 PM
I should add that I am very much looking forward to the explaination of what these clews reveal. I know that some of the damage has already been discussed on the other thread but now that I see Dave's pics, I see suspect areas that I didn't really notice. I guess that's because I don't really know what to look for.

I'd like to roughly paraphrase one of THR's core contributors. I believe that she said, somewhere in another thread that I am too lazy to find right now because I am temporarily on dial-up, *something* to effect that were it not for the availability of the services of a highly qualified pistolsmith, she'd still might be carrying a Glock instead of a Full-size Gov't Model. Well, I've had a Glock 30 holstered in my waistband since Old Fuff was kind enough to knock me upside the head in a PM. Unfortunately Louisville does not have an abundance of pistolsmithing talent (at least none that advertise to the public) but thankfully I do have THR and my own meager skill set and the generosity of other THR members such as Dave Campbell, 1911 Tuner and Old Fuff.

hnm201
November 27, 2004, 11:02 PM
Is the chamber correctly head spaced?

1911Tuner
November 27, 2004, 11:28 PM
Looks like some bad spec issues with that one...Short chamber or short hood.
The extractor is whackin' the barrel face prtty hard too. Never seen a Nork barrel that far outta whack.

How much clearance between the hood and breechface, Cap'n?

Dean Taylor
November 28, 2004, 08:54 PM
The barrel needs the standard Patriot COP treatment taught in Professor Dave's online course.

The head space looks fine to my eyes.

If I had this barrel I would keep it and treat it. If I had the Norinco I would keep the barrel, slide and frame and replace everything else fitting things in the Patriot COP fashion. Not hard or expensive if you you have taken Dave's online course like I have.

Lots of fun.

Dean P10
deanrtaylor@att.net

Dave Sample
November 28, 2004, 10:10 PM
I had thought the pictures were clear enough on the headspace that a blind man could see that the barrel has an excellent chamber and the headspace is as good as it gets. It also has a great crown. The lands and grooves in the barrel look very good also, as does the chamber. The barrel hood is "Kissing" the breechface which is OK. That is where the good news ends.
Here is what I found out about this gun.
The barrel is slighty large in diameter.
The link pin is out too far on one side and, of course gives the apperance of being wallowed out on the other side which it is not. The link pin hole is fine.
The hole in the link it too large and the slide stop pin is too small.
The link is pulling the barrel down very hard into the edge of the barrel bed.
If you look at the link, it is flopping around and marking both sides where is shouldn't. It is slightly narrow.
The barrel is tipping up every time it cycles, hence the wear on the front of the hood and no wear on the back of the hood. the wear pattern should be the same as piston in a cylinder on a car engine. This could be related to the drop in bushing.
It has a bad extractor installed in it with way too much tension as it is hitting the side of the barrel everytime it fires and has battered and scraped the side of the hood. The extractor is also too long or the barrel face is too long, which I can correct. The timing is slightly off as we can see from the battering of the front edges of the upper lugs. I can correct this issue.
The edges of the hood need to be addressed also as they are slightly larger than they need to be and the corners are too sharp.
Please understand that this is supposed to be a leaning experience for all of you and it is not intended to make me look good. I am very good and anyone that knows me knows that. This is what we look for when we do reliablity work and this is what we correct with that work.
Here is what needs to be done to the gun itself. The inside of the slide where it locks up at the top has to be polished and the sides as well.
The barrel bed needs to be checked to see if it is off a little on the sides.
The slide stop needs to be replaced with a .0200 diameter pin.
The firing puin stop needs to be oversized and fitted tight to the slide and a new extractor with a properly shaped hook.
Whether or not these things are done or not depends on the owner. I cannot do the work even if I wanted to because of time pressures here. I was glad to help with the barrel and as soon as Brownells gets the parts here, It will be in the next days mail.
All factory guns are victims of the tolerance factor and this one is really out of whack. Every Norinco I ever saw was just like this one so I envy all you guys that got the really great ones like Tuner has seen and others have owned. Just my luck, huh?
Hope you enjoyed this part of the Norinco barrel thing as much as I have. I will do a flollow up post as we fix it and show you how it looks when it goes back to Dominic. Beware: More pictures coming.

1911Tuner
November 29, 2004, 03:43 AM
Good as it gets...Aight Cap'n. I'll take your word for it. Must be the angle on that round, cause it looks a little short from here...but how can ya tell
what the chamber is like with a cartridge instead of Go-NoGo gauges? Most cases run about .890 inch long these days...

Still waitin' for the hood to breechface clearance...Curious to know.

Standin' by...

Dave Sample
November 29, 2004, 04:22 PM
The head space was checked with a Hydra-Shok, a dummy Brownell's round, and a Generic ball round that was left over from the test fire at the Cooper Range at Gunsite when we test fired the first seven guns built online. It is fine. The round is down about a thou for a fudge factor that I always do to any 45 ACP chamber I ream.
The hood is kissing the slide breechface slightly which is OK. The problem is the barrel face which is too long and is battering. On the extractor side it is really bad. The area we are talking about is where the barrel is hitting the slide on either side of the throat. I can correct that as we have a fudge factor there. This particular barrel is oversize in many areas. The Norincos I built were new in the box and I changed all those problems when I gutted them. I have never seen a Norinco barrel like this one that is badly battered because I changed and adjusted all the parts including the frame and slide. I never had an extractor problem like this, either, in those good old days.
I am hoping the parts arrive today so I can get it back to Dominic. Like you, I was trying to save him some shiopping costs, but I should have had him send the whole gun and I could have taken care of ALL if the problems for him .I simply don't have time with the single actions stacking up around here. I just got two more in this AM for the whole enchilada so it is time to get the shop warmed up and go to work. I do think that the barrel will work just fine, but I have very different opinions about the China Guns than you do. Apologies in advance for the Chronically Offended.

1911Tuner
November 29, 2004, 04:48 PM
I jumped on the Nork bandwagon a little late, and I've only looked at about 60 or so to date...but I ain't NEVAH seen one with all that wrong with it. :eek:

Gonna square up the front faces of those lugs and roll the corners are ya?

Curious...How can you tell that the hood is kissin' the slide without the slide?

Dean Taylor
November 29, 2004, 08:01 PM
Marks on the top rear part of the hood.

Dean
deanrtaylor@att.net

1911Tuner
November 29, 2004, 08:38 PM
Quote:

Marks on the top rear part of the hood.
______________________

Which could be the result of the slide pushing on the hood when it goes into battery empty...but no indication of positive contact when the slide is in battery. Zero barrel to hood clearance is normally the result of a tightly-fitted match-grade barrel, and rarely seen on even high-end production pistols. There's usually a gap...sometimes a wide gap. Most smiths that I know personally like to leave about .003 inch. Some will fit to zero, but that's too tight for my use. I like about .005 inch...but that's just me.

How do we know that the barrel hood is kissing the breechface when the gun
fires...when it really means something...unless we have the slide?

We don't.

Dave Sample
November 29, 2004, 08:56 PM
You don't know Tuner. I do. If you think that the barrel hood can kiss the breechface when the gun feeds a round and then go forward, that is a very interesting concept , to say the least.

Here is something interesting.

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/2872874/75042791.jpg

1911Tuner
November 29, 2004, 09:59 PM
>>You don't know Tuner. I do. If you think that the barrel hood can kiss the breechface when the gun feeds a round and then go forward, that is a very interesting concept <<

That ain't what I said...I said that the breechface will hit the hood when the gun is put into battery EMPTY...and could have caused the evidence of contact. No way of knowing how many times the gun has been dry-cycled.

All of which has nothing to do with whether there is clearance or a tight fit when the gun is fired. There can be contact, but still have a condition of clearance between hood and slide. The slide always "kisses" the hood when it finally goes to battery...but it doesn't mean that the hood to slide fit is good. Put it into battery and slide feeler gauges into the gap. The one that won't let the barrel into the slide is about .001 inch aobve the working clearance.

hnm201
November 30, 2004, 08:26 AM
Dave Sample said:
Here is what needs to be done to the gun itself. The inside of the slide where it locks up at the top has to be polished and the sides as well.
The barrel bed needs to be checked to see if it is off a little on the sides.
The slide stop needs to be replaced with a .0200 diameter pin.
The firing puin stop needs to be oversized and fitted tight to the slide and a new extractor with a properly shaped hook.
Whether or not these things are done or not depends on the owner. I cannot do the work even if I wanted to because of time pressures here.

Ok, I think that I can do all of that. Or at least I can try. I have needle files and a dial caliper. I try to not put anything on the dremel other than a polishing wheel.

Do I need a set of guages? Can anyone recommend a set?

BTW, the extractor was recently replaced on this firearm, and being the dummy that I am, I didn't note whether the wear on the breech face developed before or after the extractor was replaced. :( 400 rounds were fired after the extractor was replaced. The new extractor is an ed brown hardcore, and the aft end protruded from the extractor tunnel at the back of the slide. When I last had the gun in the shop (at the shop of the "reputable" gunsmith in town) to have the front sight fixed, I asked him to trim the end of the extractor so that it sat flush with the back of the slide. I would have assumed that he would have checked the extractor length and have checked to see if an ovesized fp stop was needed. Maybe I assume too much.

But, as Tuner and Old Fuff have oft suggested, maybe I can cover the sides of the barrel with magic marker and cycle the slide and see if the new extractor is hitting it.

Dave, I can send you the slide if need be. But it sounds like you are pretty busy. Just let me know. Thanks again for everything.

In my effort to find someone within driving distance of Louisville, KY who could work on my 1911 that *might* know what the hay they are doing, I've discovered this outfit in Frankfort:

http://www.geminicustoms.com/

Does anyone know these folk?

1911Tuner
December 1, 2004, 11:03 AM
dum de dum dum...dum de dum dum DEEEEEE dummmmm

Oh! Sorry guys...Don't mind me. Just hangin' around waitin' 'til the "after"
pix come through so we can get into this headspace thing a little deeper. :cool:

J.BELLINO
December 1, 2004, 03:54 PM
Dominic.....boy I think we are very fortunate to have some of the best in the country right here in Arizona......hmmmm....how many years before Tuner will be ready to move here????!!!!!!

1911Tuner
December 1, 2004, 04:00 PM
Arizona...No no. Bad show. Much too hot and dry. My delicate skin would fairly wrinkle on contact with the air in Arizona...and if I couldn't look out my window and see mountains within walkin' distance, I'd go completely 'round the bend. :eek: :banghead:

:D

Now, about that headspace thing...

Tick-tock...Tick-tock...

J.BELLINO
December 1, 2004, 04:19 PM
Tuner....I look out my windows at home and see mountains 360 degrees....VALLEY of the sun..y'all know.
Dave S. is probably looking at snow caps on his mountains right now.

1911Tuner
December 1, 2004, 04:26 PM
Cool! Only one problem...They ain't North Carolina mountains. :D

And here alla this time I was thinkin' that Arizona was mostly flatter'n a corn fritter. :scrutiny:

I gotta get out more.

Tick-tock...Tick-Tock...

J.BELLINO
December 1, 2004, 04:37 PM
Tuner....just wait till ya git jus a lill bit more long n the tooth..ya will be able ta precieate the DRY HEAT.....yawl be able ta put down the dremel and use ya fingers again!

1911Tuner
December 1, 2004, 04:49 PM
I got a Dremel for Christmas once...Took it out in the driveway and hit it with a 32-ounce ball peen hammer 5 or 6 times so I wouldn't be tempted to use it on a gun... :p

J.BELLINO
December 1, 2004, 05:07 PM
Tuner....when you git old and got Arthur Rites ya will be wanten that dremel back....but the joints work great in a dry heat....got to go close up shop fer the day and go home and tend to the live stock..c ya.

1911Tuner
December 1, 2004, 05:14 PM
Me and Arthur be all too well aquainted. We have prayer meetin' every mornin' around 0400 hours while we do an imitation of a bowl of Rice Krispies
tryin' to get outta bed. I ain't young as ya think I am... :scrutiny:

Wheredahello's Sample at? He oughta be here by now...

Tick-tock...Tick-tock...

Bill Z
December 1, 2004, 05:21 PM
When was headspace an issue on this barrel? I think that was the only thing right with it. Ya trying to instigate something? Don't let the pic's fool you, listen to the words.

1911Tuner
December 1, 2004, 05:31 PM
Hey Bill! Where ya been hidin' at?

Noooo...Not tryin' to instigate nuttin'. Just tryin' to figger out the deal on that headspace.

Tick-tock...Tick-tock..

Bill Z
December 1, 2004, 06:05 PM
Puttin' out fires around here, getting caught up so I can have some holiday time.

Let me vouch for Dave and the pic's, based on three years experience of putting photo's together for the classroom, they lie like a rug when you don't want them too and tell on you when you don't want them too. They have an uncanny ability to pick out little flaws you overlook with your eyes like you wouldn't believe. I photograph most of my work, especially cosmetic work, as I can get a more critical view of the work, but conversely, when I am taking photo's for the class, especially when I need to do something for a student that has hit a dead end and needs some clarification, I seem to have trouble getting the picture to show what I want it too. If Dave says the headspace is right, I'm sure it is, there's no reason for him to say it is when it's not. If your basing your pacing over the pictures, save the wear on the rug, if not, clue me in as to why your tracking up your living room.


BTW, give me a ring LATE Friday or over the week-end, I've some some parts we need to talk about that we PM'd about before.

hnm201
December 1, 2004, 10:18 PM
Bill,

I am glad that someone (other than me) said this about photos. I think that Dave's photos look remarkably good in that he is not ichiro-san and he's able to post pics that have very little shadow or glare and even contrast. However, when I've read some of the remarks on the photos I can't help think "are they looking at the same pic that I am?" Of course, I am in a room with three computer displays (four if you count the multi-head console on the server rack) : one large LCD with excellent color depth, one crappy CRT and one nice CRT. Often the same picture will look quite different on all three displays.

BTW, I did post something about the barrel's headspace. But I don't know what the heck I am talking about, and that's a fact.

JeffC
December 1, 2004, 11:33 PM
I have a question..... is this Norinco barrel too soft? Is it possible that played a roll in the lugs being beat? The reason I ask this is because of the "dent" from the extractor.

Dave Sample
December 2, 2004, 01:24 AM
Well, I am back. I tried to get on yesterday and couldn't so I assumed that Tuner had kicked me off. I know how much I irrigate him and well, you know.............. anyhow I got an e mail from a pal who said that he kicked everyone off but maybe he would let me back on someday. Thanks Tuner!
Dominic's Norinco barrel is on the truck and on it's way home. I have done all I can do to it and I am honest so I will say it wasn't a 15 minute job as predicted. That triple chrome is harder than the Hinges of Hades and I had to do most of the work with various stones. I donated $150.00 worth of time in an ice cold shop so I could be your hero. I had my little heater on but it was cold!
Here is what we found out.
Norinco barrel at the wide place was .699
GI WWI barrel at the same place .685
Systima barrel at the same place .688
Kart NM EZ fit at the same place .693
So my guess at first was correct in that the barrel is simply too big around.
The end of the barrel was .584, the Kart was .478. That is where the bushing rides. As luck would have it, I had a take out SS Barrel Bushing that was full of Evil Mojo, but I blessed it and fitted it to the ID of the Norinco barrel, and the OD of Deans old WWI 1911 army gun. It is a good looking bushing and will work fine now.
I cleaned it up and polished the areas where it was bad, did the throat, and did a chamber check notch that Dominic liked, and got rid of the peening on the top lugs so that it should work better. The lock up was right on the money at .052 and the upper lugs were .062 deep which is good. I installed the Wilson Number Three link and the .156 link pin and staked it in just in case, cleaned up the lower lugs in every area and called it good.
Relative to the headspace, I stated in a previous post that it was down about .0001 and that means that a round would not prevent the hood from kissing the breechface. It is a prudent measure , because contrary to what some may believe, 45 ACP cases tend to grow in length on rare instances and they are not all exactly the right length. If I would have re chambered this one it would have been exactly as I found it.
The conclusion? It may very well have been for nothing. This barrel is bigger than most I have seen and we may have wasted some time and postage here. One the other hand , we can shoot it for a while and let Dominic make a 1/2 inch sanding stick and sand the areas inside the slide where there are the tell tale white marks and it could last forever. I will let him take some pictures of it as I just was too cold to mess with the camera and it really just looked like any other barrel when I got done with it. I know it's better now that it was and was glad to help on this one.

1911Tuner
December 2, 2004, 01:45 AM
Good ta hear that it all went well...but I'm still at a loss to understand how you determined the headspace. :confused:

I guess I'm missin' somethin'. :scrutiny:

Tick-tock...Tick-tock...Tick-tock

hnm201
December 2, 2004, 08:25 AM
I have a question..... is this Norinco barrel too soft? Is it possible that played a roll in the lugs being beat? The reason I ask this is because of the "dent" from the extractor.

I can tell you that the the barrel steel is softer that the slide or the extractor. I say this because neither the slide lug interface or the extractor shows sign of wear (except the white skid marks that Dave describes, on the lug interface). Or maybe I am wrong to say this. I am confused. When the barrel arrives, I'll alot an hour to sit down and reread everything on this and the other norinco threads and also read my Colt Shop Manual.

Thanks Dave!

1911Tuner
December 2, 2004, 09:15 AM
Howdy Dominic,

Here's hopin' that your barrel is squared away and ready to rock. Since you
seem to be a serious student of the design, I'd suggest that you obtain both
Kuhnhausen Shop Manuals and put on a pot of coffee. I got the books last year, and they're excellent...even though Mr. Kuhnhausen is a little tricky to follow sometimes. Go back over the "DO WHAT" parts 3-4 ties, and it'll clear up.

Meanwhile....

Tick-tock...Tick-tock...Time draws nigh.

1911Tuner
December 2, 2004, 05:09 PM
1600 hours. Time to get into this headspace thing.

How can you determine that the headspace is perfect by dropping a factory round into the chamber? Is the case length within spec for a GO or NOGO gauge? Not highly likely.

Headspace gauges are used for checking headspace.
That's why gunsmiths pay big money for'em. It's so that they can check the headspace against a KNOWN standard. They cost big money because they are precisely-made tooling. It's not unusual to pay a hundred dollars for a headspace set...for a single caliber.

How can you determine what the working headspace is without
having the slide? Headspace is measured from the breechface to the chamber shoulder...or to the datum line in a bottleneck rifle chamber. The boltface...or the slide's breechface is necessary to determine the headspace. The chamber shoulder to the face of the hood means exactly zip. That can be adjusted to appear "perfect" when it's not even close to
being within the acceptable and safe headspace range.


When the slide is pushing on the rear of the hood, and the GO gauge is
dead flush with the rear of the hood, and there isn't any discernible back and forth play in the barrel...THAT is ideal...or zero headspace. If the
barrel will move forward in the slide and enable you to slip a .005 feeler gauge between the breechface and the back of the hood, you have
.005 inch of excessive headspace. If you have zero clearance between the slide and hood...but the round itself is .005 short...you STILL have excessive headspace... because the case is shorter than the chamber shoulder to the breechface.

Simply dropping a round into the chamber ain't gonna let anybody determine whether the headspace is "perfect" or not. That's why "Hard-Fit barrels come with overlength hoods and semi-finished chambers...so that the smith can set the hood length to the slide and finish ream the chamber to depth as determined by a minimum GO gauge. When the slide will go to battery on the GO gauge, but not on the NO-GO gauge...headspace is within the acceptable range. It's entirely possible to slip a round into a chamber and have it look as "perfect" as the one pictured here...and still have dangerously excessive headspace.

It's pretty obvious that either the barrel or the slide is out of spec here, and seriously so...and quite possibly both. There's also the matter of the impact surface in the frame being too far forward and causing the damage to the lugs. Given all these "clews"...what are the chances that this gun has anything even approaching "perfect" headspace?

Cheers!

Dave Sample
December 2, 2004, 06:08 PM
I am trying to avoid a post that will be offensive and I am , at the same time ,trying to explain that my guns shoot bullets, not headspace gauges. This is NOT a match barrel and is so far from it that it's like night and day. It is a badly built Norinco barrel and the first one I have seen that was so far out of spec that I was really ashamed of who ever made it on Monday Morning in China Town. It should have never passed inspection and should have been discarded at the factory. I am going to tell you how I know the head space is perfect one more time. The loaded rounds sit in the chamber exactly like it would if I reamed the chamber with a reamer. The round is about .0001 low and that is a "Fudge Factor" to allow any brass he shoots to chamber and fire safely. The barrel hood was plainly kissing the breechface so I know that the gun will work just fine. The headspace is set at the hood with a reamer on NM barrels that we use, and after 20 years of building and fixing 1911's, I think I know of what I speak. When it chambers a round, it will be very close to the breechface and will shoot just fine and may end up to be a very accurate barrel ,as it wasn't all bad. I have given the owner instructions on how to help the slide work without battering as it was before and we leave it in his hands for now.

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/5823980/74742860.jpg

The loaded round test.

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/5823980/74742842.jpg

Another view of the loaded round in the chamber. This is the end of this thread for me. After all, Tuner, what do I know compared to you? Do you think for a minute that I do not know what I am talking about? If I don't know something, I say so. I have nothing to prove here and was simply doing a "Pistolsmith Thread "to try to help some other people learn a little bit about how we find out things in 1911's. I am not here to argue over how many Angels are on the head of a pin. I am certainly not going to argue about headspace with you because it's a non-issue with me. We all know that you and O.F. are the resident experts here and I am very comfortable with that image. I am NOT trying to educate either of you. We only try to teach people that don't know anything about 1911's. We three are in very different fields. I can do and I can teach, too. I know all I need to know about 1911's and I do not need any more education in that area, thank you very much. Smoke 'em if you got 'em. My beautiful Fed Ex Jayne the Blond is going to another route and I am broken hearted so I am out of here for now. Maybe I'll see you both at the Shot Show in Lost Wages and we will have a cuppa together.

hnm201
December 2, 2004, 06:09 PM
Brownell's parts#:

Clymer Headspace Guages, 45ACP
184-100-450
.45 ACP, GO $30.00
184-100-451
.45 ACP, NO-GO $30.00

Mitutoyo Feeler Guages (26 Leaves)
606-950-252
Inch Feeler Gauge $26.00

Other parts check list:
- needle files
- sand paper, various#
- Both Kuhnhausen Books
- brain
- Internet/THR (Tuner, et al)
- elbow grease
- carbon paper

Other than the parts above, is there anything I need to fit a Kart EZ fit barrel to my gun? Of course, as Tuner points out, the lugs could have been cut incorrectly on my Norinco slide.

Finally, after days of beating the bushes and calling everybodys dad who I ever went hunting with, I came up with a short list of names of fellows who do 1911 work in Louisville. One came kept coming up from multiple sources. I've gotten in touch with him and when the barrel shows back up he and I are going to sit down and measure everything.

The new guy, Joe, is my age, 36. It's nice to talk to someone who isn't talking down to me like I some kind of runny nosed kid tugging on his shirt tail.

Litmus test: Joe has not only heard of Jerry Kuhnhausen, but he's read him. The two other gunsmiths who have open shops here in town have never heard of Kuhnhausen, and the're not big readers.

hnm201
December 2, 2004, 06:16 PM
I should add that I'm not convinced at this point that I need a new barrel, but I am just running down my options in this precious slow moment of christmas season.

Dave has sent me instructions. Tuner, don't you think that if it was evident from the markings on the barrel that the hood was smack up against the breech face or could cleanup that Dave did on the bottom lugs change the fitting when the barrel is in my frame? Yes, I know now that it was bad methodology to send just the barrel to anyone, and that the whole gun should have been sent but Dave was so kind to offer his assistance that I didn't want to impose upon him more than I had too.

In the interest of a second opinion and furthering my education, I'm seeking out another local opinion, per post above. This time however I will be armed with better understanding of how the pistol works. My conversation with Joe on the phone was very promising in that I believe that he'll be much easier to work with than the two other local yahoos that I've bothered with in the past.

Dave Sample
December 2, 2004, 06:23 PM
All things are possible , Dominic. 36 is 1/2 of 72 and a very good number. My son Bill will be 36 for a few more weeks and then December 19th, he will be 37 and I will no longer be twice as old as him. I am guessing that your slide is fairly close to specs but without seeing it, who knows? Your barrel linked up very tight in the WWI army gun and it is very much within specs. I would try to get the Norinco barrel to work before an EZ fit, but it's your gun. I have taught over 75 people how to fit Kart barrels in 1911's and they have all done it slow and easy and with great success. The first class was a "Hands On" at Yavapai College and we used the only ones available then , the Gunsmith Fit Barrels". Even if you did fit a Kart barrel, without doing the slide to frame fit and all the other things that we do to make these babies nice and tight, you woulld not gain much. It will be interesting to see how it works out. I did cut a bushing for you which could make a difference in the lock up. You should have it tomorrow. Now all we need is some good luck!

hnm201
December 2, 2004, 06:46 PM
I'll post a detailed report with pics after I receive the barrel. Of course, I would prefer that this barrel work than try to fit a kart barrel. It may take me a few days, possibly several days, to get the message posted as I have to do a little more homework first and bizness is hoppin during these holidays.

1911Tuner
December 2, 2004, 06:47 PM
Kart EZ-Fits are probably the best thing goin' for a hobbyist to obtain nearly a
hard-fit barrel, and it comes with instructions...or so I understand. The fit depends on how close to spec your slide is, along with a few other dimensions in the frame that are related to barrel fit, including the location
of the slidestop crosspin hole. Be careful and go slow. Think three times and cut once.

You can fabricate a rough set of feeler gauges with a sheet of 20-bond typing paper. The paper averages .004-.0045 inch in thickness. This isn't going to be exact, but it will give you a fair idea of your clearances. Search around in your pile of fired, resized brass until you find one that is as near to .898 inch long as you can. That will serve as an expedient GO gauge. Again...not precise, but pretty close in a pinch.

Dave! I appreciate you not goin' ballistic on that point. We try to keep all
discussions, debates and disagreements on a non-personal level here on The High Road...and stick to the facts. My point...My only point was that exact headspace can't be determined by droppin' the odd factory round into a chamber. To insist that it indicates good headspace can lead some readers to believe that their gun is perfectly safe when the reality is 180 degrees removed from that. This is not to say that no gun that passes the test is unsafe...just to point out that it's not definitive...and not to be trusted if there's a serious indication that headspace is questionable. Which brings us to the other thing that we try to do here. We strive tirelessly to present
correct, accurate information, and I work hard at seeing that the technical information written within these portals is just that. Anything less is unacceptable, and possibly negligent. The members and lurkers are here to learn and to share, and they trust we who are experienced in these matters.
We owe it to them to provide accurate information...in detail.

Thank you for your support.

Tuner

Jammer Six
December 2, 2004, 07:50 PM
Dave, do I understand that you don't use go/no-go gauges to set headspace in 1911's?

Do I understand that you didn't use such gauges on this barrel?

Just as a side note, I've read that one of the rules of safety for a pistolsmith is to never allow live rounds at the bench.

The reference for that is Kuhnhausen, Vol. I, page 11, "A Gunsmith's Safety Rules", number 16: "Don't permit live ammunition in the work area."

Therefore, because I don't know, and want to learn, I have three more questions:

Do you teach using live ammunition to headspace 1911's in your online class?

Have you ever had an accidental/negligent discharge in your shop?

Has any of your students ever had such a discharge?

1911Tuner
December 2, 2004, 08:23 PM
Jammer...Good point, but off-topic. Headspace! Headspace! All else is irrevelant to the discussion.

Thanks,
Tuner

Jammer Six
December 2, 2004, 09:05 PM
Jammer...Good point, but off-topic. Headspace! Headspace! All else is irrevelant to the discussion.


OK, sorry.

I'm trying to get an accurate picture of what he teaches in his class, and how he teaches it.

1911Tuner
December 2, 2004, 09:10 PM
No harm, No foul, m'fren...We're tryin' to help enlighten him...not bury him. :cool:

Puttin' out the fires...

Tuner

Bill Z
December 3, 2004, 11:18 AM
The students don't headspace the guns, that is done during final grading and prep since the kart barrels need to be chamber checked and reamed for proper lead. There have never been any AD/ND's accociated with the class, and all safety rules, even many Jerry never touched on, are covered in the class.

Does that answer those questions for you? You can e-mail Dave or myself for further information regarding the class, but we are overbooked for the next class already. I don't think this is the proper place for those discussions anyways.

1911Tuner
December 3, 2004, 12:03 PM
>>The students don't headspace the guns, that is done during final grading and prep since the kart barrels need to be chamber checked and reamed for proper lead.<<
___________________

Howdy Bill!

Thanks for the clarification. My only concern was that some enterprisin' young lad with a handfulla gun show parts would see the thread and the pictures...assume that was all there was to determining correct headspace...
slap his parts gun together...and blow one down the magwell. I've seen that very thing happen. The head blowout caused sympathetic detonation of two rounds in the magazine. Blew the grip panels off the gun and bulged the grip
frame. To top it off, the kid brought the pieces to me...stitches still in his hand...and asked if I could straighten the frame out so he could "rebuild it."
The barrel and slide were okay. A quick-test of the barrel with a loaded round looked good...until I pushed the barrel into the slide. There was nearly a 32nd inch gap between the hood and slide. Barrel throat was good.

Just tryin' to make sure that critical detail is covered when needed.

Cheers!

Jammer Six
December 3, 2004, 01:28 PM
Thanks, Bill.

If the Karts need to be finish reamed, doesn't that make them Kart Not-So-EZ-Fit barrels? :D

Thanks for letting me know about the safety rules.

Since he follows all safety rules, and teaches them, why are there pictures in this thread of a live round in a barrel in a vice? :scrutiny:

Don't the safety rules that he teaches apply to him?

And, if I understand correctly, he doesn't teach his students how to headspace chambers during the class?
He does it for them?

And finally, how does he headspace the student's weapons?

Does he use Go/No-Go gauges, or does he use live rounds?

So far, it sounds like he uses live rounds. Is this true?

This thread is turning into a valuable source of information, and it's a great way for Dave to show the value of his class.

Thanks again for your answers!

Jammer Six
December 3, 2004, 01:52 PM
Bill, I just went and looked at your site.

Nice site!

I have a couple questions.

Did you learn how to build 1911s from Dave?

Did he teach you how to headspace chambers?

If so, how did he teach you to do it, with gauges or with live rounds?

How do you do it when you are being paid to do it, with gauges or with live rounds?

I see that you're an online instructor. Congratulations!

Do you teach how to headspace 1911s?

If so, what method do you teach, gauges or live rounds?

Thanks again, Bill!

Wichaka
December 3, 2004, 02:05 PM
Jammer;
If the Karts need to be finish reamed, doesn't that make them Kart Not-So-EZ-Fit barrels?

Geez Jammer ya beat me to it.......

Just wandered over here this morning........and what do I find, someone reaming out a Kart barrel....... :what:

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but usually head spacing goes hand in hand with the fitting process..........no? I'm checking on the head spacing as I fit the barrel, not after all the work is done.


Bill Z;
I don't think this is the proper place for those discussions anyways.

This is the perfect place for these discussions. You & Dave can drum up a lot of biz off this thread and forum in general. Give the folks out here a taste of your expertise, what your class does and doesn't do, what it is & isn't.......a resume' perse. A bit of free advertising never hurt anyone.

With the small biz I've got, I'm always lookin' for the free ride. Hey folks check out my web site. I'll tall ya all about.......the animals & equipment I use, the type of knots I tie........etc. Heck, I'll even send ya a free horseshoe to throw in yer coffee.........when it stands up, ya know its done!

My appologies for gettin' off subject here.........but there is a point to be made.

Most.......noticed I say MOST........everyone will happily give their opinion & expertise to the matter at hand........on line.........without reservation.
If they're proved wrong, they admit it and move on. No crime in that, they give their .02 from the experience they have or have read..........again no crime.

I ain't got a swelled head, but I think I know a good fair amount about the old slab side, but I've been proved wrong on a few things, found some easier ways of doin' some procedures and I file it in the good directory of the gray matter and look for more. There's always someone out there........I figure.......has a bit of knowledge on the gun that I've not heard of yet.........and I want to find that person. And ya know what........so do a lot of folks on this forum.

So to end my rant.........my soap box speech....... Yes, this is the perfect place to discuss these matters.

Now ya see..........ya got me a bit off subject again, now I'm gonna get reprimanded for it......... :neener:

Jammer Six
December 3, 2004, 02:36 PM
This is the perfect place for these discussions. You & Dave can drum up a lot of biz off this thread and forum in general. Give the folks out here a taste of your expertise, what your class does and doesn't do, what it is & isn't.......a resume' perse. A bit of free advertising never hurt anyone.


Exactly!

There's a lot of us out here, newbies who don't know how to build 1911's, and we're looking for sources of accurate information, and forums like this are the perfect place for both of us- for you teachers who know what you're doing to find us, and for us to find you.

It's the perfect place to demonstrate what you know, so we can figure out who we should be learning from!

I just wish there were a place like this for my business...

I'd be rich.

Dave Sample
December 3, 2004, 07:23 PM
Let me just say that regardless of how I poke Tuner with sharp sticks, I have great affection for him and he is a lot of fun to play with since I lost my Rubber Ducky in the move to Prescott.
Let me try to clear up some things for you all about what I do and what I teach. The 2005 is booked and may be overbooked by nightfall. We filled it in seven weeks which is a slower pace when we booked it last year in 8 days.
I am not teaching a gunsmith class and I do not want anyone who aspires to be a pistolsmith or a gunsmith. I am a self taught 1911/1873 Pistolsmith and I learned what I know the hard way, by screwing things up and using crap parts and building guns out of junk. I started doing that over 20 years ago when I was packing a Jawbone Commander as a duty weapon and I wanted to be able to fix it myself. Bill told me he didn't like the rails on this one and so I traded it off at some point. I found that an all steel Commander was heavy so there was no advantage to carry it and I went back to the Government model 5" for a duty weapon. It did save my life on several occasions and I almost killed an innocent drunk woman with it one midnite out of Aguilar, CO.
I found Caspian Arms in the early 80's and started building Custom Caspians for various clients. Bill Bidwell taught me how to "Finish The Job" and I built them with care and did everything to them that I could to make them work. They have done just that. I was building high end guns when Armand Swenson, Bill Wilson, Ed Brown, Frank Pachmyer, and others were pinching slides, beating down frame rails, trying long and short links and all the other stuff you had to do tweaking factory guns. They all thought I was a dummy for building mine from scratch, but they aren't laughing anymore. They finally caught on and are not doing that wicked stuff much.
Live rounds for a chamber check? I use them all the time and they are all over my bench.
Ever had an AD? No. I am not stupid and I have dummy round also that I make or buy from Brownells. I use dummys for feeding checks and they are kept in a special place. I have been handed guns with live rounds in the chamber, but I am a gun safety nut and never do anything with a fire arm before I check the condition of the chamber.
I do not teach my students gun safety. If they are that dumb, they don't get in. They are very smart guys and I screen them very carefully. They are treated like resopnsible adults.
I have used Kart Barrels for many years. I know Fred and Conrad and they take good care of me. They are wonderful barrels. Used with high end ammo, they will work just fine. The chambers are very tight and they are as accurate as anything else in the market place today. Having said that, I have to modify them with a Chamber Reamer just like I do ALL NM Barrels. The reasons are simple. Kart does not put a "Leade" in these barrels. He never has. This means that the lands and grooves start right at the chamber and will not tolerate inferior ammo. I also like to make sure of the headspace although I have never found one that is out of specs. I do not want my students to have to buy a chamber reamer for one barrel so I teach them how it is done, but don't take a chance on them ruining a $180.00 barrel. I do it when I check the guns after they have test fired them. I also chamfer the firing pin hole as we use 45ACP friring pins. My men build a Dave Sample Clone of my Carry On Patrol (COP) model which I have built for many years. They build it the way I do, not the way anyone else does. We do many things to them that you have never dreamed of and when they are done, they are wonderful Custom Guns. We have had no failures yet because I will not tolerate failure. They succeed because they want to do the best they can and I am here for them 24/7 while Class is in session. If the class were not booked and the admission closed, I would not have told you this much because I would be accused of "Trolling". We do not advertise it and the web site is up just to answer the questions without having to do lengthy e mails to each person who is interested. This is sort of a Hobby Deal for all of us.

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/2962084/53458417.jpg

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/2962084/53458404.jpg
A Few Good PATRIOTS

Jammer Six
December 3, 2004, 08:01 PM
Thanks for the answers, Dave. I appreciate the information, as I'm sure we all do.

Live rounds for a chamber check? I use them all the time and they are all over my bench.

I use dummys for feeding checks and they are kept in a special place.

Just so I'm sure I got that right, you have live ammo at your bench, and you keep the dummy rounds isolated?

That's interesting, and it's good to hear it from an instructor. I'm familiar with the safety rules in construction (I'm a general contractor) and I know how the rules get the corners cut all the time. I know that it happens. It's just rare to hear someone admit it, and I appreciate it.

Does that mean that you don't use the gauges?

Having said that, I have to modify them with a Chamber Reamer just like I do ALL NM Barrels. The reasons are simple. Kart does not put a "Leade" in these barrels.

OK, I think I'm starting to understand.

I do not want my students to have to buy a chamber reamer for one barrel so I teach them how it is done, but don't take a chance on them ruining a $180.00 barrel. I do it when I check the guns after they have test fired them.

So they test fire the weapons before you check the chamber?

If they need to be reamed, shouldn't they be reamed before your students test fire them?

And if it's safe and if it's ok to test fire them, why do they need to be reamed?

What am I missing?

If the class were not booked and the admission closed, I would not have told you this much because I would be accused of "Trolling".

Dave, as far as I'm concerned, troll away. I meant what I said, that these forums are great places for everyone to find out exactly what your class teaches and how you teach it, and I wish there were a similar forum for my business.

Believe me, I'd be all over it. :D

Thanks again for your answers, and I look forward to hearing the answers to my new questions.

Old Fuff
December 3, 2004, 08:05 PM
>> The reasons are simple. Kart does not put a "Leade" in these barrels. <<

I find this to be highly doubtful on anything advertised as a "drop-in" barrel. A chamber that was cut with no leade what-so-ever wouldn't chamber a round with a bullet in it. At the front of the case any bullet will be bore diameter (.452") give or take .0015" If the round did chamber the bullet would be jamed into the rifling, and almost impossible to extract as a loaded round.

Kart surely is not selling his "drop-in" barrels with the expectation that a buyer will have chambering reamers and know how to use them.

hnm201
December 3, 2004, 08:17 PM
Update: the Norinco barrel arrived at my door to my office today just 30 minutes I had to leave. Dave was kind enough to send a new bushing with the barrel. I had time to pull the rest of gun out of the bottom of the safe and assemble. When I assemble the gun with the new bushing that Dave supplied, the barrel will not unlock and allow the gun to come out of battery. However, when I assemble with either the ed brown bushing or the stock norinco bushing, the gun will cycle and lock up appears to be tight. I measured the pin of the CMC slide stop and it measures .2". I didn't have time to take pics or do any futher examination but I did try swapping all of the bushings out three diffferent times, and with Dave's bushing installed the slide will not move out of battery.

I should have time to tinker with it more tomorrow.

Bill Z
December 3, 2004, 09:42 PM
Fuff,
Fred does not sell drop in barrels, don't let the term 'E-Z-Fit' fool you, there is quite a bit of work still involved, but you are working from the top down instead of up so to speak. Drop me your P.O Box or snail mail and I'll send you a copy of his instructions, .............all 13 pages of them. Actually, there are several of those pages dedicated to the theory behind it. He advertises in fitting one in a hour, I don't buy it though, not to the tolerances we expect to get the results we get.
As far as the leade, any match barrel will not have as much leade as a 'standard' barell, that's why bullseye shooters normally roll their own to tune the round to the firearm. Fred wouldn't sell anything that is not safe to shoot once it is installed correctly, and the pistols won't pass the safety/function checks if it is not fitted properly. The variables are going to be the fit and the ammo, the accuracy of the barrel is not a variable. The 'proper' leade is done to insure that different ammo will function reliably as this is the first priority in any carry gun.

Now, another twist that takes place is the Caspian part. This is a new, unfitted slide we start with. Extensive work needs to be done to get the parts up to the level we expect, those parts are also not drop in. It's quite a bit different than beginning with a working, or not quite working, factory/production guns where the parts are made to different tolerances and are oversized/undersized opposite from the parts we use. 'Factory' parts are normally speced to be line assembled, not hand fitted. We hand fit everything, so there are modifications in the lesson's that have to be made to accomodate the parts.

Jammer,
I would personally and highly reccomend you purchase the go and no go guages for every caliber you shoot/build, I would consider them a wise investment for yo. You can never have too many tools or toys.

Bill Zollo

1911Tuner
December 3, 2004, 09:45 PM
Dominic said:

>> but I did try swapping all of the bushings out three diffferent times, and with Dave's bushing installed the slide will not move out of battery<<

Whoops! :uhoh:

In law enforcement circles...that's known as a "clew." :scrutiny:

hnm201
December 3, 2004, 09:49 PM
...known as a "clew"

:confused:

Jammer Six
December 3, 2004, 10:02 PM
Thanks, Bill, I appreciate the answer.

Do you check chambers with live ammo?

Is the hand fitting of the slide to the frame that you guys do more accurate than Caspian's fitting service?

From the posts that have been made, do you have any idea what's wrong with Dominic's/Dave's new bushing?

What would cause the barrel to lock into battery and not unlock?

I appreciate all the answers! Thanks!

1911Tuner
December 3, 2004, 10:41 PM
Dominic seems confused.

"Clew" Clue. As in...A clue that is used to solve the mystery of why your barrel won't unlock with that barrel bushing in place, but it will with others.

What other...clews...await us? :scrutiny:

Bill Z
December 3, 2004, 11:08 PM
I have headspace guages and also use 'blank' reloads that I function check with. I have no problem with doing checks with known ammo under the correct conditions.

I personally haven't handeled Caspians fitting so I cannot answer that question. In a custom I build I would not use Gary's services for that though.

If you haven't noticed, I have reserved comments on this thread about the work Dave preformed on the barrel and choose to continue in that manner. It's a professional courtesy we extend to each other in public forums for the most part unless we are involved in a project together.

Now, are you interviewing me for a job you want done? My business contact info is on my web-site and this really isn't the format I choose to do business in.

JeffC
December 3, 2004, 11:15 PM
Dave was right... that bushing must really have some evil mojo :eek: :evil:

Must be holding the muzzle higher in the slide than either of your other bushings. Some micrometer readings will tell you for sure...

1911Tuner
December 3, 2004, 11:37 PM
Jeff said:

Must be holding the muzzle higher in the slide than either of your other bushings. Some micrometer readings will tell you for sure...
________________

Study the picture of the Norinco's muzzle, grasshopper...Compare it with honorable Springfield barrel, and the answer will become clear to you.
Shape of Norinco barrel just behind muzzle, known as honorable clew.

Just as quickly as you can...snatch the bushing from my hand.

Old Fuff
December 3, 2004, 11:48 PM
Bill Z:

I am familiar with both Caspian and Kart products, and my experience might predate yours.

My post regarding the chambers in Kart barrels was prompted by this statement by Dave Sample:

>> Kart does not put a "Leade" in these barrels. He never has. This means that the lands and grooves start right at the chamber and will not tolerate inferior ammo. <<

Now it should be obvious to anyone with any experience that if (as Dave said) "the lands and grooves start right at the chamber --- " a loaded cartridge couldn't be seated in that chamber unless the bullet at the case mouth was around .441 diameter (pilot diameter on a chambering reamer). Obviously by making such a statement he wasn't doing Mr. Kart any favors. I would agree that tight match chambers don't have a place in practical weapons, but that isn't the issue here. I do find it to be commendable that you know that any chamber must have some clearance to accommodate the bullet.

To continue: Presuming that Dave has a set of go/no-go gages it would be nice if he set a good example by using them in his posted illustrations, rather then using a loaded cartridge, which is only a rough indicator of chamber length, and not necessarily headspace.

Headspace in a .45 pistol may be affected by a number of factors, some of which are:

1. The depth of the chamber.

2. The exact location of the locking lugs on the top of the barrel, and they're counterparts in the top of the slide. They position the barrel relative to the slides breech face when the pistol is in battery.

3. The distance from the locking lugs and grooves to the breech face in the slide. If this distance is off the headspace may be too.

Hopefully the "Guru" will take the same advise you gave Jammer ...

JeffC
December 3, 2004, 11:55 PM
Ah, the barrel isn't relieved, so it must be a tight bushing fit. Bushing needs relieved in a most honorable fashion....

Young grasshopper swoops at the bushing in Master Tuner's hand.... Young grasshopper opens hand to find ________ ? :uhoh:

Jammer Six
December 4, 2004, 12:12 AM
I personally haven't handeled Caspians fitting so I cannot answer that question. In a custom I build I would not use Gary's services for that though.

I'm sorry, I don't understand.

If you've never handled his fitting, why would you hesitate to use his product?

Now, are you interviewing me for a job you want done? My business contact info is on my web-site and this really isn't the format I choose to do business in.

Sorry, Bill, I meant no offense.

I'm looking for answers, as always.

Interesting sales technique, though.

In your position, I would assume the answer to that question is always "yes".

Bill Z
December 4, 2004, 12:39 AM
I do find it to be commendable that you know that any chamber must have some clearance to accommodate the bullet.

Geeze, don't act so surprised, I thought that was one of the simpler problems to address and correct. Either way, Fred makes no 'Drop-in' barrels like you posted earlier which prompted my post.

Now, as for your experience pre-dating mine, most probably, but I am dealing with current generations of parts that are available now, and in addition to that spec some parts out to custom dimensions. I do personally know that the man I consider the best in the business right now specs his kart barrels out with longer hoods and fatter hoods and pays mucho extra for that. Why? Because all of the dimensions some people like to toss around don't mean squat when you have an individual pistol or parts in hand and have to accomodate the hand you are dealt. We all know about tolerances and tolerance stacking, so sometimes there is no substitute for hand fitting and a skillful hand and eye.

Myself, I commend Dave for trying to help out someone and save them some time and trouble and money. As for me, I would only attempt this with the entire unit in hand, and it would be a business transaction, cut and dry. Now, what I would do, since this barrel is so far out of spec dimension wise, is donate an old takeoff that really has seen no use, however I am concerned about some of the dimensions in the hood area such as the hood legnth from the back of the lug and where the end of the breechface is also compared to this measurement. If the sizes work, I'll ship it out.

Now, to address something I missed earlier

Wichaka said:

This is the perfect place for these discussions. You & Dave can drum up a lot of biz off this thread and forum in general. Give the folks out here a taste of your expertise, what your class does and doesn't do, what it is & isn't.......a resume' perse. A bit of free advertising never hurt anyone.

With the small biz I've got, I'm always lookin' for the free ride. Hey folks check out my web site. I'll tall ya all about.......the animals & equipment I use, the type of knots I tie........etc. Heck, I'll even send ya a free horseshoe to throw in yer coffee.........when it stands up, ya know its done!



The class description is on a website dedicated to that alone. It's how we decided to handle the matter of the class and have been wildly successful by our own standards, which in this case is what counts. We limit the classes now to about 10 people at a time. 10 is plenty as this is nothing either one of us do for food, fuel, or housing, and it allows us to get to know the students, make new friends, and have a great time doing it. If it was a matter of doing it for subsistance, I would whore it around anywhere I could looking for the 'free ride.' Gladly I am not in that position, as a pity people who are, and can decide where and when is the proper place all on my own. Thanks for the publicity, but don't really need it right now. May even have to do a second class this year due to the interest, but we are still in discussions over that.

Jammer Six
December 4, 2004, 12:46 AM
It's how we decided to handle the matter of the class and have been wildly successful by our own standards, which in this case is what counts.

Well, Bill, I hate to break it to you, but that's just not the way it's been going.

There are a number of people who never miss the chance to bring up the class, and Dave's not shy about it.

If that's what you guys agreed, that's great, but so far you appear to be the only person who's attempting to abide by that agreement.

In fact, this forum is where I first heard of the class, and I thought then, and still think now, that it's a perfect place to find out just what can be learned there, and what the real value of the class is.

And for that, I'm grateful, and appreciate all the answers you've given.

Thanks again!

Bill Z
December 4, 2004, 12:53 AM
If you've never handled his fitting, why would you hesitate to use his product?

I consider hand fitting of the frame to the slide to be the best method, not machine fitting. Many of my peers disagree, youhave to choose which method you prefer with your checkbook. I also have customers that ask for a different 'feel' or 'fit' and accomodate them within reason. As much as I respect the work Caspian does, and admire the quality of their product, and enjoy the personal friendship and coversations I have with Gary, Seth, and crew, when I do have machining work that needs to be done, ie... sight cuts, flat tops, etc, I commission one of the best machinists/smiths in the country to complete those tasks on a 'per gun' basis as I have no interest in lowering my standards to a production basis and I don't expect my customers too. I want them to challenge me and my talents, not settle for O.K. or acceptable.

Bill Z
December 4, 2004, 12:57 AM
I have answered general questions about the class, don't mind doing that, but prefer things off of forums. The students like to show off their work as we all do, it's certainly not something to be ashamed of. It's one thing to talk about the experience, it's another to talk business. Business is handled in private forms. Where's the line drawn? Where I draw it when it comes to me. ;)

1911Tuner
December 4, 2004, 08:35 AM
Jeffhopper say:

Ah, the barrel isn't relieved, so it must be a tight bushing fit. Bushing needs relieved in a most honorable fashion.
__________________

You have nearly reached enlightenment grasshopper, but must insist that you
study most vexing problem further. Simple clearance in bushing not enough to
solve binding issue when honorable barrel tilt at south end. Barrel may require most honorable turning fixture and lathe to provide freedom from restriction so that it may achieve blissful linkdown. Continue to study the clews.

You have not snatched the bushing yet! You must concentrate, young grasshopper. Feel the bushing. BE...the bushing!

Remember that your file is your friend. You must become one with your file.

Old Fuff
December 4, 2004, 08:55 AM
Bill Z:

I am well aware that the Kart "E-Z-Fit" barrels are not true drop-in's. I used the "drop-in" description because that is how Dave has described them in his past posts, and I wanted to avoid confusion rather then add to it. If Dave will use the correct terms I will too. :neener: :D

Since you haven't told me how I should build guns I will make a point of doing the same with you. However I will never hesitate to discuss and debate technical and historical issues concerning the 1911 pistol ... and I will advance a perspective that not everyone can afford (nor do they need) a custom made pistol, and that those that are produced in factories are not hopelessly inadequate for the purpose they are intended. :eek:

At least until the moderators throw me off ... :(

Old Fuff
December 4, 2004, 09:03 AM
Tunner, Ol' Bud ...

If everyone goes out and gets a file the Ol Fuff might get a heart attack ... :eek: :D

hnm201
December 4, 2004, 09:25 AM
from Dave:

Norinco barrel at the wide place was .699
GI WWI barrel at the same place .685
Systima barrel at the same place .688
Kart NM EZ fit at the same place .693
So my guess at first was correct in that the barrel is simply too big around.
The end of the barrel was .584, the Kart was .478. That is where the bushing rides. As luck would have it, I had a take out SS Barrel Bushing that was full of Evil Mojo, but I blessed it and fitted it to the ID of the Norinco barrel, and the OD of Deans old WWI 1911 army gun. It is a good looking bushing and will work fine now.

from Tuner:

Simple clearance in bushing not enough to
solve binding issue when honorable barrel tilt at south end. Barrel may require most honorable turning fixture and lathe to provide freedom from restriction so that it may achieve blissful linkdown.

I was wondering if the Dave-bushing and the norinco barrel worked in another gun, but didn't work in my gun, that this may indicate *something* about about my norinco slide and frame.

I realize that the specs of my norinco slide and frame are highly questionable but I have no reliable means of meauring them as I only have a dial caliper. I am going to try to meet Joe, the new-to-me local pistolsmith who specializes in 1911s, today.

1911Tuner
December 4, 2004, 09:28 AM
Mornin' Fuff! Ya get all dug out from under yet?

Your statement:

>>and I wanted to avoid confusion rather then add to it. If Dave will use the correct terms I will too.<<

...illustrates the point that I've been tryin' to make all along.

People come here for knowledge and for answers...and many come for help.
They read and trust us...we Band of Pistolwrenches...and whenever a technical point is discussed, it's important that we not only work to provide good information...we need to provide it in detail, especially if leaving out an important detail could result in damaging an expensive gun or even injury to the shooter. These guys read our posts, and think about it...Some of them
decide: "I can do this!" and proceed to follow our directives. If those directives aren't detailed enough...they can get into trouble in about 3 seconds. Witness the number of butchered throat and ramp jobs that we see...mainly because some young guy read something about the work in a gun rag...and didn't get enough information to do the job correctly. Many times, the barrels are ruined beyond repair...and sometimes the frames as well. This is the kind of thing that we need to keep in mind. Too often, we assume that the reader understands exactly what we're saying...but it just
isn't necessarily so. We strive to work toward this goal so that THR's excellent reputation will be preserved for current and future members. I'll
keep working toward that goal until the staff throws ME off the forum :D

This has turned into a good discussion. As long as we can keep it on the high road, the thread will remain open. If it catches fire...I'll close it.

Cheers all!

Old Fuff
December 4, 2004, 10:20 AM
Dominic:

In the personal message I sent you earlier I anticipated that the Ed. Brown bushing you had in your pistol might be contributing to the problem. As you may remember, I said in part:

“ The standard USGI pistols were fitted with a barrel bushing that had enough clearance between the slide and bushing, and barrel and bushing to allow this tilting process. This of course came at the expense of target pistol accuracy, so ‘smiths began to use fitted “match” bushings that were tightly fitted to both the barrel and slide. An obvious problem here is that under these circumstances the barrel is rigidly held at the muzzle end and can’t tilt. The simple answer was to “step” the barrel, or turn down its diameter about .006” from about 3/8” back of the muzzle to about the same in front of the barrel lugs. The slide moves backwards, but before the barrel has to tilt the bushing reaches the reduced area and has plenty of room to do its thing. A tight bushing combined with a stepped barrel can give you the very best in target accuracy. If a tight bushing is matched with a barrel that isn’t stepped the barrel must literally bend, or “bow,” and it is likely that there will be problems with the barrel dropping down to clear the lugs from the slide.”

I have no way of knowing what the diameter in your slide is where the bushing fits, and for that matter Dave doesn’t either. Because the barrel is hard chrome plated it isn’t practical to “step it” by turning down the center section forward of the lugs and about 3/8” behind the muzzle.

You can take a piece of ½” wood dowel, wrap it with a strip of 320 grit abrasive paper (available at most hardware or building supply stores) and polish out the hole in the bushing. This is slow work, and should be. A bit crude perhaps but it will work. You can get some idea of what is required by using your calipers to measure the hole in the various bushings you have, as well as the outside diameter of the bushing. I think you may find that the O.D. of the original Chinese bushing is smaller, and this allows to bushing to tilt with the barrel as it goes through its cycle. On a straight (unstepped) barrel the bushing must either be loose enough so that it can tilt, or the hole in it must be large enough to that the barrel can tilt. Does all of this affect accuracy? Sure it does, but the Norinco was intended to be a weapon, not a target pistol.

Bill Z
December 4, 2004, 12:36 PM
I am well aware that the Kart "E-Z-Fit" barrels are not true drop-in's. I used the "drop-in" description because that is how Dave has described them in his past posts, and I wanted to avoid confusion rather then add to it. If Dave will use the correct terms I will too.


They are not drop-ins at all. Fred or Conrad have never said that, and I have never seen dave say it. EZ-Fit is really not what I would have called the barrel, but I don't own the company. It is a 'user' fit barrel as no special jigs are needed and it can be fit with the installation kit which is really just a 'fiiting' bushing, file, and feeler guage. So, whoever, where ever, and when ever it was said or associated that the Kart EZ-Fit was 'drop-in' to any extent is misleading. If Dave has said it, I haven't read it and maybe it could be pointed out and corrected. The key to the EZ-Fit is the 'fit' part with an EZ way of doing it compared to having to buy fixtures and cutters that double the price of installation. Oh, and thanks for the consideration on not telling me how to build a gun, it'll keep me from having to tell you how to write an article, I'm sure we are about equally cross qualified as the other. :neener:

Now, to Dominic, my reccomendation would be not to waste a 200.00 barrel on a 200.00 gun that something is out of spec on anyways. The tolerances people like to toss around are broad enough that a 'true' 'drop-in' barrel, or better yet, a take-off will most likely work. The dimensions of your barrel, and the fact that it is triple chrome plated, wouldn't be worth the time and effort and tooling to put on a lathe, it's a ludicrious idea at best. Get me the measurements from the rear lug to the hood of the current barrel, from the hood back to the breechface, and a promise that you will do a few checks before you attempt to shoot it and I have one that will most likely work unless the slide/frame is dubiously out of whack, and then all the measurements in the world wouldn't do any good without the whole gun to work with.

1911Tuner
December 4, 2004, 12:53 PM
Have to concur with Bill on the barrel. The Nork is hard-chromed and will require an OD grinder attachment to the lathe to turn it down...and it still may not fly.

In case he doesn't have one that'll work...I might suggest checking Springfield's website...1911 parts listings. They have a one-piece stainless barrel that is listed as drop-in...and they're very good. I looked a a couple
and was so impressed that I ordered one a while back. It fell into a '43 Rand
almost like it was born to it, and there was very little adjustment that had to be done to get the gun on line. The slide and frame even came to within
.003 inch of sitting flush at the rear, and the vertical lock-up gave up zero play at the hood when pushed hard. Of course, this depends on whether there's somethin' screwy with the slide's specs, and how the slidestop pin is located in the frame. As with ANY so-called "Drop-In" part...some adjustment may be necessary.

I think my next barrel is gonna be a Kart EZ-Fit...I wanna see what they're all about, and I've got a little project in the works soon. :cool:

Cheers all!

19112XS
December 4, 2004, 12:59 PM
Project? OK, I'll bite. What project is in the works that requires a Kart barrel? Plum nosey minds want to know.

1911Tuner
December 4, 2004, 01:18 PM
Ohhhh...Nuttin' much. ;) Kelie's "Softball" pistol turned out so well, that I thought about settin' up another one for me on that old 1918 frame that's
been loafin' for the last little while. I need a barrel...and I might as well try an EZ-Fit so I can see what the hoopla's all about. I hear good things...
I have great expectations.(With apologies to Charles Dickens)

Cheers!

Dave Sample
December 4, 2004, 02:52 PM
I would like Old Fuff to find the post where I called an EZ fit Fred Kart Barrel a "Drop In". That would save me from thinking I haver completely lost what liitle is left of my mind.
My Students average 10 hours installing a barrel and bushing that Bill and I can do in an hour. Why? RULE ONE: " Metal is very easy to remove and very hard to put back." It certainly isn't the "Drop In" part that has been mentioned here by various commentators. The book Fred wrote to go with it was written for Les Baer because he was ruining barrel after barrel and Fred had to help him learn how to fit one. The installation maunual is very good and it should be all anyone of average intelligence should be able to follow. We supply his Installation Kit with the barrel for our students so they have the tools to do it right.
Let us return to Dominic's barrel for a minute.
I had a WWI GI 45 that is ready for the bluing tanks at Gunsite here and that was the only 1911 45 that I thought would be close to the Norinco. I installed the Norinco Barrel and the Evil Mojo Bushing and it cycled and locked up in that gun. It did not like the slide dimensions and I left the scratches it made so Dominic would know where to correct his slide dimensions. I e mailed him the exact instructions that Old Fuff gave him and told him how to make a 1/2 inch sanding stick that he could use to correst the slide problem, which is caused by the oversized barrel. I am not surprised that the bushing needs a tweak, because it is very tight in the OD and ID dimensions. I did what I could do and due to the triple chrome barrel being being very hard at the surface and worth $50.00 at the most, I felt that I did all I could to help him.
Let us address the Barrel issues that have been brought up.
The live round/chamber photos were taken on my back deck, not in the shop. They were 20 feet from any weapon around here.
Fred Kart sells more barrels that he can produce on any given day. He would not be suprised to know that I use a chamber reamer to "Finish The Job". Ed Brown would not be suprised that I do that nor would Bill Wilson or Chip McCormick. I do that to every barrel I fit. Note the word FIT. Two of the biggest problems with 1911 semi-automatic pistols are magazines and ammo. I stated earlier that Freds barrels will work forever with QUALITY ammo. Our Online PATRIOTS are built to be tough and reliable. They are Carry On Patrol guns and what a SWAT officer would use in his io her JOB. They have everything you need and nothing you don't need. They have never failed to feed or function with any kind of ammo that I know about.
I like the EZ fit for several reasons, but the main reasons are that you do not have to use a lug cutter to fit them. The hood dimension is very close to our slides and is a matter of .0003-.0005 in reduction so the chambers are OK in most cases. We have had test fire problems BEFORE they came here , but we took care of that with a 10 minute ream job.
When fitting a Gunsmith Fit barrel the process is quite different and you may end up having to move the barrel throat forward and re cut it and then the chamber is too short and has to be adjusted. The barrel is locked up in the slide with a devise that pushes the barrel into lock up as high as it can go. Then we use a lug cutter to ream out the lower lug area while we apply force to the slide so we can line it up with the back of the lower end. After that, there is several more hours of work to get it even where it rides on the lower lugs with the slide stop in place. The bushing has to be fit inside and out and we make sure it's not "Springing" by relieving the inside of the bushin top and bottom so the barrel can tip. The whole job for me is 4-5 hours. We finally fill the whole are with JB Bore compound and cylcle it until it passes "The Gravity Test" which means it will lock and unlock by tilting the gun up and down. Only then are we satisfied with the fit and that 1911 will run forever.
Slide to frame fit is done cold cold with a method I have been using for 20 years. Caspian hates it and does not recommend it. That is not my problem, because when we get through with this fitting proccess, the fit is marvelous. It does not move in any direction but forward and backward. We use files, stones, and big hammers. I use lead hammers that I can renew here with a lead hammer mold. We beat the crap out of them and that is when we show these guns who is thew BOSS! This can take up to 5-10 hours if we do it right. Again, it is a Rule One issue.
Head space is not Rocket Science in 1911 pistols. I have never had a headspace problem in over 20 years in any caliber. I have never used Go/Nogo gauges, but I have nothing against others think they need them. I don't.
I do not flame anyone. Old Fuff and Tuner have made it their life's work to question every thing I say and that does not bother me at all because it creates interesting discussion here in THR forum. This happens on every forum I have ever been on so I am used to it. Neither one of them likes me or has any respect for what I have done in my time in the business and that is fine with me. I do not care what they think or say because I have was involved in a war 50 years ago to insure that Right. I have stood alone for all of my life and have never had to be a people pleaser. I am too old to start now. That is the Curse of being Captain Eagle, Pistolsmith to the Stars!

Bill Z
December 4, 2004, 03:19 PM
Dave, I cannot imagine you said that, not after writing an 8-10 step lesson for it. I think Fuff may be mistaken as I said in my post. Folks, Dave and I normally stay away from threads one or the other posts him lest we get accused of just backing each other up. Contrary to popular belief we don't speak for each other or agree on everything. If we did, we'd be sick of each other and not be friends. Niether one of us has to have our buddies agree with us, just be men of character.

1911Tuner
December 4, 2004, 03:35 PM
Now we're all on the same page...Kudos gentlemen!

Dave...Clear, concise posts is where it's at. That's all we want. Just tryin' to keep the lads outta trouble, and the devil's in the details ya know... :evil:

Bill Z and Fuff...It warms my heart to see ya'll pokin' fun at each other in good spirit and THR fashion. It's nearly the Christmas season, after all. :cool:

And Dave...Me'n Fuff don't question ever'thang ya say...just the questionable stuff. :neener:

Fa-la-la-la-la-laaaa---La-la-la-laaaaaaaa!

Ho Ho Ho!

Bill Z
December 4, 2004, 03:55 PM
concise posts

Since we're poking fun at each other, it's funny you say that.

Give me a ring this evening or late tomorrow now, got some parts that I want to measure before I send em to ya, want to make sure they are what you want.

1911Tuner
December 4, 2004, 03:57 PM
Gotta have a number, Bill...Gotta have a number. What kinda parts? I'm mainly lookin' for short, checkered one-piece triggers and pre-80 Colt hammers.

Bill Z
December 4, 2004, 04:04 PM
Sorry, thought you had it, it's on the web but I'll PM my home number. Got the pre-70 series internals I'm not going to use on that pretty Colt commercial I cut up. Gonna use Ted Y's stuff, have a set for a custom build and I like it, so I'm going to order another set for myself.

Old Fuff
December 4, 2004, 04:57 PM
Well the Old Fuff will have to offer Dave and Bill his most humble apology ... :uhoh:

After making a diligent search he failed to find a post by Dave (or Bill for that matter) which referred to the Kart E-Z fit barrel as a drop-in part. However both of these gentlemen have mentioned in the past that this barrel did require “some fitting.”

Goes to show that even a great memory can fail some times ... :eek:

Sorry about that. :o

JeffC
December 4, 2004, 05:00 PM
And Jeffhopper opens his hand an what does he see? a recoil spring plug ?!? :what: D'OH!


An obvious problem here is that under these circumstances the barrel is rigidly held at the muzzle end and can’t tilt. The simple answer was to “step” the barrel, or turn down its diameter about .006” from about 3/8” back of the muzzle to about the same in front of the barrel lugs.
That's what I was thinkin', turn down the barrel like a Springer... but I have no lathe so I'd relieve the bushing, or better yet mike the bushing and slide and let George at EGW cut me an angle bored bushing ;) .


Because the barrel is hard chrome plated it isn’t practical to “step it” by turning down the center section forward of the lugs and about 3/8” behind the muzzle.
Never knew a Norinco had a chromed barrel.... mister Klinton made it not possible for me to buy a new Norinco :rolleyes: , and I'm always sceptible of buying used 1911s, you know how people like to experiment on them :uhoh:

1911Tuner
December 4, 2004, 05:20 PM
Jeffhopper almost achieve enlightenment. Many happy thoughts in head of
master.

Muzzle diameter only part of tilt problem. When barrel not relieved behind large diameter, bottom of barrel stopped by lower part of honorable Eagle bushing as it searches for its revered place in frame. Barrel cannot achieve full tilt, and get into bind as slide pull bushing backward. If bind sufficient to prevent honorable barrel lug from departing recess in slide in timely fashion, many bad things happen. Barrel is not in harmony with slide and slide very unhappy with barrel. The two spirits have unresolved conflict that keep them from happiness.

When barrel relieved behind muzzle, more space is provided before barrel hit
lower part of bushing and harmonious linkdown is restored. Barrel rest
happily in bed while slide return with cartridge so that journey can begin anew. Harmony is possible only when two mated spirits have own space.

Just as quickly as you might, snatch the bushing from the slide and return happy bushing to its rightful place. Eagle bushing must find harmony in Springfield or Colt world so that bad Karma can be averted.

JeffC
December 4, 2004, 06:27 PM
AH! So! :D I shall strive harder my master.... Jeffhopper bows and leaves the master to his bidding.

Later, Jeffhopper will diss asmble his 1911s and become one with his bushings ;).

19112XS
December 4, 2004, 06:40 PM
Tuner, I look forward to seeing the new "softball." The modifications on the other one showed much about 1911 workings.

Looks like this thread is quickly approaching a group hug.

JeffC
December 4, 2004, 07:46 PM
Maybe Master Tuner can lead us in a chorus of "Koom By Ya" ..... :D

Bill Z
December 4, 2004, 08:49 PM
Looks like this thread is quickly approaching a group hug.

Maybe Master Tuner can lead us in a chorus of "Koom By Ya"

Tuner, the threads turning ugly again, close it before it gets out of hand.

1911Tuner
December 4, 2004, 09:13 PM
Maybe Master Tuner can lead us in a chorus of "Koom By Ya"
___________________

Naw man! I pick a purty good git-tar, but I sing like a dyin' frawg. :rolleyes:

Bill...I'll allow one group hug as long as there's no kissin.' And I ain't huggin' Sample. I have it on good authority that he bites... :eek:

First report that I get of any hickies and this thread's history!

Anna one, anna tew...

Jammer Six
December 4, 2004, 11:17 PM
Excuse me.

I left some things in my car.

Can we have a short break, please?

Before the group hug or the singing?

JeffC
December 4, 2004, 11:36 PM
That depends on what you left in your car Jammer....earplugs or a Quad Vente Mocha? :D

Jammer Six
December 5, 2004, 12:22 AM
Uhm...

Just let me walk out to my car, and I'll show you.

And I need to take my coat, because...

...well, because...

...because I need to put it in my car.

Wichaka
December 5, 2004, 01:50 AM
Gotta stand in a circle and hold hands first..........

JeffC
December 5, 2004, 04:41 AM
Deal's off!

I ain't holdin' hands......

Come to think of it, I left somethin' in my car too..... :evil:

Bill Z
December 5, 2004, 08:29 AM
:barf:

JeffC
December 5, 2004, 02:16 PM
So any updates on that barrel?

Wichaka
December 5, 2004, 02:29 PM
Guess that warm-fuzzy feeling has its limitations eh?

1911Tuner
December 5, 2004, 02:35 PM
Wichaka...

Warm and fuzzy...Gooooood!

Wet and sloppy...NOT goooood...

It's the flu season fer cryin' out loud! :neener:

Dave Sample
December 5, 2004, 04:32 PM
How could you not like a man like Old Fuff who tells it like it is. And also, the Tuner has a good heart. I imagine that it seem so some folks that we are at each others throats sometimes, but that is never really true. "We is just callin' like we see it." The basic problem is that I dissolved this old brain with alcohol many moons ago and I do not have the precison that I used to have. Also, I build 1911's in very peculiar ways and can't expect you all to understand what I do. Tuner probably remembers when I would grab my ax and blow with Randy Roadapple and the Cowpatty's and get the Tenor Guitar rippin' those clubs to pieces! Then when I got 'em where I wanted them, I would grab the Plectrum Banjo (Bacon and Day) and finish them off for the night. Wheeeeee................
I like you alll and would never flame you, but I am a difficult man because I come form another time and place where you didn't learn "Forum Speak" when you are a teenager. I am not devious and I say what is on my mind and sometimes the explanations of what I am trying to say are not clear. I am NOT PC, either. Bill(space) Z would be worthless to me if he were not the kind of man he is. He built a better 1911 that I can build at that point and that is rough on your ego, but true. He did it with some help from me, but we are not yes men. Yes men are worthless in my opinion because you do not learn anything from them. We learn from friction, not PC agreement. When I have an idea I want to bounce off him or Dean, I want an honest opinion, not some garbage that will make me happy. We discuss ways to improve our Online 1911 Class almost daily and strive to make it better and better for our Brave Men who jump in with both feet and pay out a lot of money to learn something and" Build a Gun and Have Some Fun". They make at least a $2000.00 investment and we try very hard to give them their money's worth. I have always loved doing things the "Experts " said couldn't be done. I have all of their negative comments in this hard drive and on a CD and when I need a few laughs, I read them again. All they said to me was that "They" couldn't do it. I went through that many years ago with the first class at the College and we did it that time twice. So Professor Harold Hill has booked in 10 more students and they are going to get conned into building the nicest 1911 PATRIOT that the world has ever seen.
The Norinco barrerl will do fine with a little teaking in the slide or Bill(space)Z will send Dominic another barrel Pro Bono. We are not quitters.

1911Tuner
December 5, 2004, 04:50 PM
Ahhhh Cap'n! Sometimes I could kiss yer lumpy head, and sometimes I could bounce a brick off'n the side of it. Maybe one day we'll have us a sit-down and argue some of the finer points of smiffin.' Who knows...We might both learn a little somethin.' (An altogether frightening thought...) :eek:

Fuff explained the mislick on the Kart barrel...Like me, he never gave it a thought after seein' the "EZ-Fit" description and assumed that it was a near drop-in. I've never used one, and always relied on the hard-fit barrels on the few occasions that I did a match-grade build...or even welded up the key areas on a good ordnance barrel and refitted everything. The hard-fit barrels
are much better in the accuracy department because the semi-finished chambers, oversized hoods, and close-tolerance lugs allow for close, close specs in the headspace and horizontal lockup.

Some newer things really are better for some applications...but some of'em ain't worth doodly-squat. Anyway...That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
:neener:

I do wanna give one of those new-fangled EZ-Fit barrels a whirl sometime...
Might turn out to be the best thing since John Browning was born.

Dave Sample
December 5, 2004, 05:13 PM
I am at your service Tuner, if you need some help with that EZ fit Kart Barrel. Do not hesitate to ask me. We have installed a lot of them Online.

hnm201
December 7, 2004, 01:49 AM
Hey guys. I apologize for not posting and update sooner. I must say that I probably bit off far more than I can chew by starting up this little project with Christmas so close on the horizon. My business has kept me very busy and I ain't complaining about that.

First, thanks again to Dave S. and to Bill Z. for his kind offer. When the barrel arrived I had about thirty minutes to sit down with my Kuhnhausen shop manual and read-and-tinker.

I love this manual! The illustrations are great and it's a very helpful to have it handy when going over some of the posts on THR. However, like I said, I've been very pressed for time. However, here are some things that I noticed immediately:

1. The norinco barrel still binds on the slide stop pin when I do the test than Tuner has described in numerous posts here on THR - the same test that Wil Schuemann describes on his site: when I remove the slide and assemble only the barrel and slide stop pin in the frame, leaving the slide stop pin dangling and put the barrel in the bed, the slide stop doesn't move freely but is in fact quite restricted.

BTW, the slide stop pin in question measures .2" in diameter.

2. When the barrel is in the bed, lower lug touching the bridge, the norinco barrel's frame ramp almost overhangs the frame ramp.

3. I still don't get the .02" clearance when the barrel and slide (no pin) are assembled and the slide is moved .25" to the rear from battery.

So, in a minor fit of angst, I decided to pay the new (to me) local 1911 pistolsmith a visit. Actually I really just wanted to get out of the house and have a face-to-face conversation with a grown adult that was not a business partner or a family member. His analysis was that even after the modifications the gun is still out of time and that that the lug grooves in the slide are slightly off, the norinco barrel's bottom lugs were just slightly too far forward and the frame's bridge was slightly rearward. He took the gun home to meditate upon it further and here is what he came up with twenty four hours later: he can fit a used barrel from his parts bin and recut the slide's lug grooves.

I picked it up from him this afternoon. The donor barrel was from a Sistema Colt and it looked basically unfired. He charged $50 for barrel and $50 to fit it. Another $100 in the money pit. The gun appeared to lock up much tighter and the play in the slide to frame fit was slightly reduced. I took the gun and 150rds of FMJ to range and gave it a little trial run. No malfunctions and the gun was every bit as accurate as I was. Ok, so I went home and took the gun appart and here's what I noticed after comparing the new sistema barrel with the "old" norinco barrel:

1. the sistema barrel passed the test in item #1 above with flying colors.

2. out of battery .25", the sistema barrel does have more clearance, but I am not sure if it has .02". Still looking for typing paper and/or feeler gauges.

3. the sistem barrel's ramp doesn't overhang the frame ramp and appears to be about perfect, per Kuhnhausen pp 65.

However, there seems to be some scraping on the hood and the middle lug of the barrel seems suspiciously shiny on the it's forward (muzzle end) edge. The other lug edges seem fine.

Note that the smith did NOT relieve the frame bridge. He said that he didn't think that it was necessary with the sistema barrel. What do you think? Put another 100rds or so through it and if there is more wear send it back to him?

Some other things that I have noticed about the Sistema barrel: It's link will not travel completely to the rear. It gets stuck between the feet. It will go back far enough for the pin to mount under the lugs obviously but not much farther. I don't know that this matters as the link obviously won't be traveling there if the pin is in place, but I just thought I'd mention it.

I've gone and done it. :uhoh: I've polluted the thread. Dave and Bill Z. didn't want to give up but it looks like I did. Sorry guys. I made the decision to jump on another barrel when I compared the fit of norinco barrel in my slide with the fit of the slide and barrels of some other guns in the shop, some of which had been heavily used.

1911Tuner
December 7, 2004, 07:15 AM
Yep...back to square one.

Your Norinco barrel is toast. That was pretty evident from the pictures.
Happy, happy for you that I was wrong on the slide bein' toast too...at least I trust that your gunsmith didn't miss somethin'. Happy , happy for you that you had the foresight to double-check before ya shot the gun, or I might have been right in the final analysis.

The binding link isn't a concern as long as it's free from the in-battery position forward. There is no function rearward of the in-battery position.
Double-check that as well. Easy to correct if it is in a bind in the wrong place.

Since this one has been stepped on so many times, and because it shows an important reason why correct timing is so critical...I'll start new thread on it so that all may study the matter more carefully.

Luck!

Tuner

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