[natedog]

I similar thread on AR15.com sparked this one, but:

Do we (the shooting community) place too much emphasis on hardware, and not nearly enough on software?

I'd say YES. I'm slowly changing- the first thing I used to think about when buying a new gun was all the cool addons I'd get for it- now, I've adopted the credo of BA/UU/R. Instead of neat-o Surefire or ghost ring sights for my new shotgun, I'm going to save my money and get a couple of cases of buckshot and slugs.

[sm]

Yes.
I'll even go so far to suggest lets forget about training if you will for a second.

How about getting proper firearm instruction ,including the 4 rules, from a qualified or experienced shooter.

Picking out the proper firearm for the task, especially letting a lady shoot a variety to see what fits HER best and SHE can best safely handle and shoot best.

Mindset about firearms in general, RKBA , and passing on what was passed on to us are other things that come to mind as well.

There is more to responsible ownership than fireams.

[Langenator]

Good training-and by that I mean training for the kind of situation where you might actually have to use the firearm to save the life of yourself and/or others-is severely neglected. Some of this is because it is a lot of fun to get all the doo-dads add-ons for guns (which sucks up money.) Some of it is because good training requires things that can be tough to find-first, instructor(s), and second, a range that lets you do that kind of thing.

For that matter, most hunters neglect shooting in anything other than a bench rested position, too.

[swingset]

Most gun owners suffer from what the human race suffers from - lack of common sense.

Armed with a healthy dose of it, you'll know to seek out training, knowledge, and will inevitably figure out that practice makes perfect. Good equipment comes along the way, as necessity.

Lazy, complacent, or stupid gets in the way far too often in our hobby - and everyone else's come to think of it.

Not that I've ever suffered any of those maladies....ahem.

[victory]

let's see, i have 16 hours of professional instruction (from a serious shooting school) this past summer, have another 40 scheduled for this april....then another 16 in september...

I'm a training junkie. Got hooked, now i'll drive hours upon hours and pay hundreds of dollars to get the "good stuff"

[El Tejon]

Yes, but we're here to see that the situation changes. ;)

[Mad Man]

Do we, as a community, neglect training too much?

Yes.

Some of it is because good training requires things that can be tough to find-first, instructor(s), and second, a range that lets you do that kind of thing.

I second that.

In my case, the quality of instruction I received was so bad that I am reluctant to spend any more money on it.

I took two classes from two different certified instructors. I didn't learn anything (nor did I expect to), but I wanted the certification for CCW.

They were pretty awful experiences. I think that people are paying too much for poor quality instruction, which will probably turn them off to getting any further instruction. Most people do a really crappy job of conveying gun-related concepts, and instead give information and answers that are clear-only-if-known (the old "C.O.I.K." principle). I think that too many trainers are too opinionated and ego-driven to be effective instructors.


One female co-worker of mine (a newbie) told me that her instructor seemed to believe that women shouldn't have guns. ( This was after the second class she took at DFUSE. (http://dfuse.us/) I don't know exactly what happened, and I didn't ask. But she said that she is never going back there. FYI: She continues to participate regularly in IPSC and IDPA).

Interestingly, though, the only training course that I felt was worth the time was the U.S. Biathlon clinic (the one where I got my "red book"). I would recommend that class to anybody. Afterwards, it occured to me that the organizers of a more "European" shooting sport did a lot better job of instruction -- and just making me feel welcome -- than any "American" shooting event (defensive pistol, high power rifle).

[Blackhawk 6]

I would tend to agree. Few people are willing to invest the time and effort necessary to acquire skill and would rather "buy" it.

I continue to be amazed that people find it necessary to select or upgrade their equipment because the internet or a gun magazine proclaims that its the one that [insert random Special Forces Unit/SWAT Team] uses. It used to annoy me, now it amuses me.

Like they say "You don't know, what you don't know." :)

[Bridger]

Probably, but at least I have the gear I'll need for the training :cool:

Part of it is finding good training nearby though. The only ranges near my home are a PA state game lands range and a NY state multi-use land. Good for practicing basic stuff I guess, but I don't know of or hear of any 3-gun competition or anything like that in my area, let alone training.

There is one place that is in CT near my girlfriend's home that I'll have to check out some time, but right now I've spent most of my money enjoying my C&R license :D

I think what makes this training thing stick out is all the guys who act like they know something or like they are a ninja navy seal.

[Mulliga]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say "no." :D

If THR members were offered free training with firearms, I'm sure 95% would jump at the chance. But there are bills to pay and time to spend doing other things, and (if you don't already have a handgun) if the choice is between buying a handgun and buying some handgun training, it's obvious what most would pick.

The thing is, competent training isn't as easy to find as guns are. You can't just open up the yellow pages and find "carbine training" or "defensive shotgun classes" (at least in my area ;) ). And it's easy to get ripped off by "tactical" wannabes if you don't know anything about a class.

[griz]

Yes.
Consider the numerous threads here such as: my dog is barking, somebodys in the driveway, which gun do I grab. The point is not WHICH gun to grab, it's if and how to use it.

The other threads that get me are the: my girlfriend wants a X-gun but I want her to get a Y-gun. She says she likes shooting the X and the Y hurts. What do I tell her to change her mind?

Come on guy, she WANTS to shoot and you are going to talk her out of it? Sounds like she has the right mind set, practice with what is comfortable and don't worry about the bells and whistles.

[BigG]

Yes and no. /economist voice :neener:

I think it is human nature to have a doodads race and I see it on the firing line. I also think "training" as outlined here is more an entertainment or mebbe masochistic thing. You don't need to expend a case of ammo in two days to be trained.

But learn how to shoot, if you don't know how already. I was lucky enough to have a dad who taught us to handle guns when we were little shavers. A hitch in the service and they let you shoot, what, 30-40 rounds in basic? But that was all the "training" lots of guys got. I had more before I was a teen than that. Other than for a member of a SWAT team, most training like Gunsite is Walter Mitty. My dos pesos. YMMV

[ShackleMeNot]

The four survival priorities are:

1. MINDSET
2. Tactics
3. skill
4. equipment

Now take a count of the number of posts on any "gun board" or the number of articles in any "gun magazine" that deal with anything other than #4. How many amazing 1911’s can you feature on the cover of your magazine each month? There are probably more posts on which forward grip to put on an AR than posts about MINDSET and Tactics combined.

Sadly training is not a priority for the majority gun owners. Most would rather have 15 extra pistols in their safe that they will never shoot than take a class. Most will post about the next $500 gun they have to have rather than spend the money on a class and ammo.

It isn't the gear that will keep you in the fight and make you the winner. :banghead:

[BigG]

It's the Magic Sword™ Syndrome, as El Tejon would say. ;)

[theCZ]

as a whole, I agree that the shooting community puts too much emphasis on tools over training. I see it all the time at the public range I frequent. Guys bust out a new magnum rifle, shoot it a few times from the bench to get it on paper (but not necessarily sighted in). Of course, I tend to think of competitions as training for myself. I go to USPSA/IPSC practice each week (when it's light enough) and go to competitions because I really like it. Same goes for trap. I shoot a CZ75 with a huge scratch on the slide, an old winchester pump for skeet, and a remington 1100 for trap. I see people that have to have the best gear to compensate for their lack of training/skill. My favorite at the trap fields are the old guys with their pumps that bust them everytime and are just as good as the guy with the $5000 O/U.

I could really see it with the AR15 crowd as a whole. Spend the money for the tactical backhair remover instead of an extra 300 rounds of range time.

[Old NFO]

I think this comes down to three things- $$$, how to spend them and lastly where to spend them- Most of us put money in equipment first, be it the newest toy, or refurb/upgrade of existing equipment. Secondly, "most" of us consider ourselves to be "pretty good" shots, and by extension, pretty well versed in our selected types of shooting. Third, training costs are escalating, there are not a lot of locations "close" to our residences, and we all hear the horror stories of, "I paid $500 or $1000 or whatever, and I knew more than the instructor, etc." The length of most training (3-5 days) and that we know we need to spend quality time with the family. All these facts tend to make us NOT get additional training, to our detriment. I have 20+ years of military experience, multiple qualifications, etc. so I "thought" I had a pretty good handle on shooting. Since I've decided to try some 3 gun, I took a tactical shotgun class two weeks ago. I proved to be the "perfect" bad example of how to do things- wrong stance (I have bird hunted for years), tactical reloaded incorrectly, had the sling configured incorrectly for tactical shooting... I walked away with a much better shooting scheme, and a plan to get more training. This was reenforced after a conversation with Phil Strader during our IDPA shoot; he indicated most military shooters have to be retrained to be good tactical shots (and do things that work within both the rules of IDPA/IPSC and home defense). I for one, AM going to get more training!
r,
jim

[Ktulu]

It Depends...

For children, YES.

For CCW holders and tactical rambos, YES.

For hunters, (not so much but), yes.

For collectors, NO!

SRT/SWAT Operators, no.

Most Everyday LEOs, yes.

The level of training required depends on what you use the tools for.

[Old Dog]

I'd have to agree that there's now too much emphasis on the tools and not enough on the training ... and I also agree with the rest of the crowd about the (1) exorbitant cost of most training courses, (2) the lack of quality training courses available in every state and (3) the fact that we as firearms owners easily fall victim to the marketing strategies of the firearms companies ...

I would submit, however, that most THR members are probably more prone to avail themselves of training -- any training -- than the rest of the firearms-owning community whose only knowledge of firearms skills comes from what they hear down at the local gunshop or once a year at the range while sighting in their deer rifles ...

[Mad Man]

I should add that not only is it difficult to find quality training, but it's near impossible to get it on a regular basis. The local instructors aren't worth my time and money. The nationally recognized instructors rarely come into town -- and when they do, one must usually get some minimum number of people to commit to a class.

"Hey Harry, Big Name Instructor is offering a defensive pistol class in town. It's only $1,000 per person, but we have to get 5 people. Interested?"

"Hmmm. I don't know. Who else is going? I'll go if Tom goes."

"Hey Tom, Big Name Instructor is offering a defensive pistol class in town. It's only $1,000 per person, but we have to get 5 people. Interested?"

"Hmmm. I don't know. Who else is going? I'll go if Dick goes."

"Hey Dick, Big Name Instructor is offering a defensive pistol class in town. It's only $1,000 per person, but we have to get 5 people. Interested?"

"Hmmm. I don't know. Who else is going? I'll go if Harry goes."

"Let me see if I can schedule that week off from work."


Training is not something you do once. Skills deteriorate over time if not used (and it's hard enough to get to any range on a regular basis to practice many of those skills.)

I recently took a training course from New Horizons (http://www.newhorizons.com), because I've been tasked with setting up the new e-mail server at work. It was a lot of information crammed into one week, and I'm sure I've already forgotten a lot of it (and there was a lot that went right over my head).

But, they have a policy that students can re-take the same course again for free (once, only having to pay for the book if it's been updated). How many shooting instructors offer such a policy?

[B36]

Two handguns, a rifle, and a shotgun would keep me and mine well defended.

I have been involved in firearms/lethal threat management training for more than 20 years as a citizen, and for much longer than that as a military person. Spent a bunch of time both as a trainee and trainer.

Two things come to mind. If, due to constraints, training is not an option, buy good books. Forget the gun rags. Any books by Ayoob, Farnam, Felter, Cooper, would be of help.

Next, instead of buying a gun, or trading for another gun, learn the one you have, buy ammo, shoot enough to wear it our.

Watch for quality training of the road show type that may come to your area. Lots of 2 1/2 day courses that are reasonable. Farnam, Givens, are two I know and can recommend highly. Ayoob's LFI I is a four day course, but again highly recommended.

For basic training, the NRA basic courses are excellent.

If you really want to train, you will have to make it a priority.

[VaughnT]

I neglect it. I've taken all of ONE combat course in my lifetime and realize that I have to do more.

The problem is always time v. money. When I have the time, I don't have the money. When I have the money, I don't have the time.

And then you have to take into account the lack of time available off from work. How many days can you afford to miss before you get in trouble?

Truthfully, I think you have to weigh the situation out. How many times have I needed to defend myself since graduating from middle school? How many of those times have required lethal force? Would I have had a pistol at that time?

Still, there isn't any way to deny the fact that we all need more training.

[ShackleMeNot]

How many times will you need it?

Just one time and the training will pay for itself.

People always seem to find money for nifty new guns. For most it's just a question of priorities. Training is doesn't even make the list.

Mad man,
If you take a course from us you can retake the same course again as many times as you like for 50% off.

I'm not here to brag; just saying there are some schools out there that do things like what you are describing from New Horizons.

[marklbucla]

Guns are always in danger of being banned, while training is not. I'm putting most of my gun money into buying guns and ammo because I may not have the option to as soon as a year or even months from now.

Now that I've got just about all of the guns that I'd probably ever want, I've started taking classes locally. You guys are right in that training is more important than the equipment itself, but there are other constraints that people in the less free states have to take into consideration.

[P0832177]

There are just too many arm chair commandos out there. And, too many people that flat out are dangerous gun owners! All you have to do is go to any range on any given day!

[GEM]

Not enough training! Waiting for a plane so I will expand later as this is one of my favorite issues to discuss.

[Ankeny]

Many of the people I see at the public range don't even have decent muzzle control. Most of them, including people who think they are good shots don't even have a grasp of the fundamentals of shooting a handgun, let alone decent technique.

However, it's a free country and if people want to buy a gun, be it for plinking, competition, or the night stand, it's their business.

[victory]

Mad man, If you take a course from us you can retake the same course again as many times as you like for 50% off.

ShackleMeNot

I just got an e-mail responce from Mr Yeager. about this springs holidaysberg training courses. This is true, but to get 50% off you have to retake the course in Camden, Tennessee.

E-mail from James:

Repeat classes are only half price when you take them at our home range. I'll make sure the Instuctors make that PERFECTLY clear from now on.

Anyway, still the best bargain at $300 for 2 days.

[ralphie98]

I don't really think training is neglected too much. If you notice in most of the newbie threads "new to shooting, what should I get?" sorta stuff, a lot of replies will usually advise that they seek out NRA training courses or something. I do think that anybody getting into guns should get some sort of training course or be taught by another experienced and responsible shooter so they don't hafta learn the hard way.

As far as advanced training goes, I don't think it would make sense to stress on this. If you want advanced training, go for it and if you don't then no biggie. A lot of people who are into guns aren't buying them with the thought that they will use them to fight off armies of mutant ninja polar bears, they just wanna destroy some pop cans or paper.

[Bruce H]

A good training course will give you the fundamentals. After that it is up to you to practice. This is where the downfall is.

[BigG]

I think safe gun handling is the part that needs to be reinforced. Spraying a couple of boxes of ammo on a "tactical" range feels good but I don't see it as realistic unless you are a police officer, a soldier, or Wyatt Earp. ;)

[ShackleMeNot]

Victory,

That was a great point, I should have stated that and I'm glad you clarified it here. Classes taught away from our home range have the added expense of travel and lodging for the instructors so it's tough to give discounts.

[victory]

A good training course will give you the fundamentals. After that it is up to you to practice.

I find that to be incorrect. A good training course will give you the fundamentals as far as shooting is concerned, then it will teach you how to practice to master those fundamentals. But that isn't all.

A GOOD training course will teach you tactics and leave you with the proper mindset to survive a violent encounter. That's what seperates good training from "learning to shoot"

That's what you pay the money for.

Victory, That was a great point, I should have stated that and I'm glad you clarified it here. Classes taught away from our home range have the added expense of travel and lodging for the instructors so it's tough to give discounts.

Not all was lost, i was going to take tactical handgun again with my new glock (first glock), but since i'll be paying the same i decided instead to take the initiative and do tactical carbine, then advanced tactical pistol with my new glock, followed by tactical shotgun.

I figure this gives me a good reason to finish my AR-15 and it will keep me a step ahead of my buddy who's doing the 5 days with me (TP, ATP and TS in his case). Then i'll at least be whooping his ass on carbine, if no longer with pistol, while teaching him carbine until he can take the course himself.

It's like having a buddy to lift weights with, you feed of each other in the quest to be better, so when it comes down to it, you can really give the enemy a good flogging.

1)bring a gun
2)bring all your friends with guns
3)bring a rifle
4)bring all your friends with rifles

[Bruce H]

Nope Victory can't agree. All the training in the world won't tell anybody how they will react in a violent situation. Training may help but nobody operates in full automatic mode. The human brain always interferes.

[feedthehogs]

Define training.

Training for self defense against the average hood that your likely to run up against in life?

Training for taking on the local swat team?

Training for taking on a national armed force?

Training for taking on aliens and assorted mythical creatures?

You can take it as far and wide as you want.

I mean if you feel you need to be uber tactical with lethal hands and lightning quick draw and point shoot ability to survive then you need to move to a better neighborhood.

The firearms world like any world is a business. Instructors, trainers and the sorts make money trying to make everybody feel they have to be a super cyborg self defense machine.

Police officers are more prone to run up against life threatening situations more than anyone else, yet most officers never pull or even fire their guns.

What does that say for the average citizen?

I keep a fire extinguisher in the kitchen in case of a fire. Prudent defense.
I don't keep a fire department on 24 hour call outside the house to possibly fight a house fire.

[Old Dog]

All the training in the world won't tell anybody how they will react in a violent situation. Training may help but nobody operates in full automatic mode. The human brain always interferes.

You know, Bruce H., that's a very good point. I have now, twice in my life, witnessed highly trained individuals completely lose it when they, for their first time ever, ended up on the wrong side of real -- not simulated -- weapons ...

It's all well and good to get quality training, develop good muscle memory, and master one's weapon(s) of choice ... but ... there are folks who simply can't react when SHTF. As I'm sure has been stated many times before: mindset, mindset, mindset ...

[photo_guy]

I'd have to say that people don't get enough training in general. I think this is partly because buying another gun or dodad is much easier than actually taking a class. Buying a gun just takes getting some cash together, making a decision, and buying it. Taking a class costs money but it also takes time.

In addition, many shooters don't realize the wide array of skills that should be understood and practiced. Until you get some decent training you don't realize that drawing from a holster and getting good hits under time pressure is more difficult than standing at the line on a target range doing one-hole drills.

Recently I've spent much more money (and time) on training than getting new firearms. Each time I realize that there is another layer of skills that I need to develop.

[victory]

Police officers are more prone to run up against life threatening situations more than anyone else, yet most officers never pull or even fire their guns.

If a cop tells you "i've been working for X years and haven't pulled my gun once" he's either full of it or not a very good cop and just plain lucky stuff hasn't gone down while his gun sat in the holster.

I keep a fire extinguisher in the kitchen in case of a fire. Prudent defense. I don't keep a fire department on 24 hour call outside the house to possibly fight a house fire.

Unfortunately, since you weren't trained in firefighting, all you know how to do is sweep at the base of the fire like the instructions say.

[ShackleMeNot]

I've seen lots of people who were ambivalent to training or they lacked the time or money to take training right now but some of these posts strike me as outright anti-training. I just don't understand that attitude.

[victory]

shackle, will you be instructing any of the 4 classes at holidaysburg this april?

[ShackleMeNot]

Unfortunately probably not for those classes. I've got a baby on the way and can't wander too far from home around that time.

[feedthehogs]

Victory,
You can't base your opinion on TV or movies. It ain't real.
Here is a report from the DOJ on police use of force. Its one of many on the web. Do some reading.

"Based on data reported for 1996–97, 87
percent of 62,411 use-of-force incidents
involved officers using physical force. Officers
used chemical force in 7 percent of
the incidents, firearms in about 5 percent."

5 percent is pretty low. Lower than chemical spray.

http://www.ncjrs.org/pdffiles1/nij/176330-1.pdf

Missed the point about the fire extinguisher.

[victory]

congrats on the kid, shackle

Victory, You can't base your opinion on TV or movies. It ain't real. Here is a report from the DOJ on police use of force. Its one of many on the web. Do some reading.

I suggest you do some reading, buddy. Try starting with your own material. The 5% statistic only comes from when shots are fired. the vast majority of time shots are not fired

Read the text circled in red.

I don't need people who don't know what they're talking about lecturing me.

[Smoke]

If a cop tells you "i've been working for X years and haven't pulled my gun once" he's either full of it or not a very good cop and just plain lucky stuff hasn't gone down while his gun sat in the holster.

It would also depend a lot on where he practices his trade. I can show you dozens of cops that have never had to pull their weapon.

Cops in Warren MI may pull theirs every night. Cops in Bosque County, TX may not ever.

As far as training...each person must decide how he will train...and for what type of threat he will train for.

Those that have hung around here long enough know I firmly beleive in picking a platform and sticking with it. I don't care if you own 200 Sigs if Sigs are your platform of choice, but I don't think you should switch around between 1911's or other guns for defense.

I think that applies to training to a degree. If you jump around between trainers it can mess you up more than it helps.

I'll give you an example:

School A teaches reloads where you drop your spent/partial mag on the deck and insert a new one. You never retain the mag.

School B teaches you to retain your mags.

So now you have two conflicting methods. If you spent 6 months practicing what you learned at school A, you know have to undo all the work if you adopt B's methods. At the least you have to spend a lot of time evaluating both methods to find which you can adopt to fit your skills.

I went to several different schools (one of which I had never heard of...) and settled on one that offered what I beleive is the better system. And it covers all the different weapon systems; empty hand, impact weapons, edged weapons, hand guns and long guns.

Should the day come that I have learned everything they have to offer (not likely) then I can look to other schools that and try to work what I can into the methods I have adopted.

Pick a platform and stick with it, pick a trainer and stick with him, until you are his better.

Smoke