milsurp help


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Deuce
November 29, 2004, 08:59 PM
Alright, those Mitchell's Mausers ads are gettin' me worked up. I'd like to get a WWI/WWII-era bolt-action.

It should cost less than $500.

Be in showroom condition.

Look good.

Operate smoothly and flawlessly.

And shoot at least 1.00 MOA.

I got my "Military Rifles" pamphlet. It looks like the 1903 is a good gun ... although, I have no clue where to find one in excellent condition or how much that might cost. And I see no mention of the Serbian M48 Mausers Mitchell's is trying to unload.

Anyone with any 1st-hand experience with these Serbian M48's? From Mitchell's? Which grade? Are they gettin' a premium for something I can get from my local dealer? Anything to watch out for? Or ask for?

Thanks.

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No4Mk1
November 29, 2004, 10:24 PM
Deuce, I'm no Mauser expert, but I have heard from numerous sources that while the Mitchell's are pretty rifles, they are generally restorations of dubious heritage....

For the price range you list you should easily be able to find a very nice specimen with a solid provenance. Just spend some time researching, asking around, and learning. (Look at the link in my sig for a good place to bone up....) I would spend some of that money on books and you will find the investment more than recouped when the time comes to buy.

Heck, you could even find a realy nice Enfield for that price range (my reccomended course of action obviously.... :p )

alamo
November 29, 2004, 11:02 PM
Do a search using "Mitchell's Mausers". You'll find out all you need to know.

Here's where you can get a 1903 for less than $500. Likely won't be excellent condition though. You'll have to pay much for that:

http://www.odcmp.com/Services/Rifles/m1903.htm

Steve in PA
November 29, 2004, 11:08 PM
If you really want a rifle with that critera, then I guess Mitchell's is the place, however everyone considers them way over-priced. But, that's a personal decision.

I myself went another route and bought a WWII German K98k Mauser from AIM. It's a "been there, done that" rifle, not a show piece. I haven't shot it yet, since I'm in the middle of deer season, but hopefully before the snow starts to fly I'll get the chance.

I would check AIM (http://www.aimsurplus.com) , KY Imports (http://www.kyimports.com) , or Empire Arms (http://64.82.96.51) for some nice Mausers. I am very happy with my Mauser from AIM and I've heard and read that Empire Arms has great WWII Mausers.

Okiecruffler
November 30, 2004, 02:59 AM
What Mitchell's is pawning off are Yugo M48's. They call them Serbian or Bosnian to make them sound less pedestrian. All of them I've seen have been in great shape, but WAY overpriced. Nothing wrong with the M48's, they happen to be my favorite shooting mausers, but to call them WWII era rifles isn't exactly honest.
Empire arms had some nice Soviet capture 98's for $200 on up and with those you can actually see a picture of the rifle you'll be getting.

telewinz
November 30, 2004, 04:53 AM
I myself went another route and bought a WWII German K98k Mauser from AIM. It's a "been there, done that" rifle, not a show piece. I went that route and was delighted. A Russian capture in very good condition. It's hard to past up a piece with such a history attached to it. Just get a "select" model and it won't need any TLC like mine did. Bore was perfect.

cracked butt
November 30, 2004, 06:10 AM
It should cost less than $500.

Be in showroom condition.

Look good.

Operate smoothly and flawlessly.

And shoot at least 1.00 MOA.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

2 things you aren't going to easily find: showroom condition and 1 moa accruacy. Military rifles generally were spec'd to shoot 2-3 moa.
The closest you will get would be with a M96 or m38 swede, 98/29 persian, M39 finnish mosin, or 1903 springfield. An M48 is an ok rifle too, but imho is nowhere near the quality of the rifles I listed, and Mitchell's is way overpriced for what you get. Nice M48's can be found from other wholesalers in VG used condition for around $100.

MrMurphy
November 30, 2004, 12:25 PM
What cracked said.

These are sixty year old military rifles, not target pieces. 1 MOA ain't happening.

I bought my first rifle in 1997. Lee-Enfield No.4 Mk1 built around 1943. It's seen service, but is in generally good condition (not a beater) for $220.
Fast smooth action, 10 shots of .303. It won't shoot 1 MOA, but from the sitting position with iron sights and ball ammo, I was hitting car and truck sized rocks at 600 and 950 meters the first day I shot it. This was after I tested it at 80, 100, and 300 though. :)

1 MOA? No. But a platoon of formed troops wouldn't be safe at that distance. For a iron sighted gun at almost a thousand yards, that's pretty dang good. My father's World War One Gewehr 98 kb was hitting at that distance as well, easily.

George S.
December 1, 2004, 11:55 AM
I've seen the Mitchell's Mauser rifles at a gun show and they look really nice. But sitting in the display box, they look like a brand-new rifle and not something that has seen battle.

I just got a Remington M1903A3 from the CMP and paid all of $420.95 delivered to my door. It had been re-arsenaled and has an all-new park job that shows no wear in the action and the barrel appears to be unfired.

The stock needed a bit of cleanup and refinishing but all I had to do was to remove the cosmoline and clean with mineral spirits and a light sanding and 4 coats of boiled linseed oil. It now has the look of a real military rifle and the patina of combat use.

I can't wait to get this rifle out to the range to see how it will stack up against my $425 M1 Garand!

So I look at both of them and I begin to wonder where these rifles had been. My M1 is an April 41 version so what are the chances it saw action? Did a Marine carry it up Mt. Suribachi or maybe across Okinawa? Did a GI try to keep mud and snow out of it as he sat waiting for a German attack at Bastogne? Did my early '43 03A3 launch rifle granades at the Germans as GI's advanced through the hedgerows after D-Day??

I also have a 1931 Isvehsk Mosin-Nagant in excellent condition that I got for all of $79 at the local Big 5 Sporting Goods store. Did some poor Russian peasant use this rifle to turn the Germans back at Stalingrad?

My Garand will shoot 4" groups at 100 yards all day long and the Mosin will shoot 8" groups at 200 yards. That's well within minute of enemy for a military high-power battle rifle.

FWIW, the local Big 5 had a sale a few weeks ago on Turkish 8mm Mausers for $79, Lee Enfield MK I's for just over $100 and now Mosin M44's are on sale for $75. Gotta go Christmas shopping :D

jefnvk
December 1, 2004, 12:51 PM
Lots of options.

Mitchells are overpriced, IMHO. Nice, yes, but for three hundred dollars, it ain't worth it. I bought my M48 for $79 at Dunhams. Not pretty, but it will shoot.

My advice would be to shop around at gun shows and the used racks of gunstores. Last week, I picked up a .308 Ishapore Enfield for $100, and a Swede M96 for $175. The Enfield is rough on the outside, but pretty in the bore. The Swede is a real beauty, looks like it was refinished and put away.

http://jefnvk.zapto.org/images/swede%20024.jpg

As mentioned before, the best place to get a 1903 is CMP. They are definitely going to be the cheapest. Have you thought about a Garand? Both are available for under $500.

Marnoot
December 1, 2004, 01:14 PM
Actually, the current batch of K98s at Empire Arms' website do not have pictures. Dennis Kroh, the proprietor, is pretty honest about the condition; just keep in mind that his table-format limits how much he can describe them. I ended up with a stock with epoxy filled shrapnel-damage, but other than that the rifle is in excellent condition. He was willing to take it back because I was unhappy about the undisclosed damage, but I ended up deciding it was just "character" and kept it. I would definitely recommend them; just keep in mind that captured battle-rifles do tend to be used! :)

johnrobe
December 1, 2004, 04:26 PM
No one has mentioned the Swiss K-31. It never saw action but it is certainly WWII era. The nicest ones, IMHO, can be found at Empire Arms and Allan's Armory for <$200. Not quite showroom quality, but probably "Excellent".

They do, however, meet and exceed your requirement to get 1 MOA. I am routinely amazed with my K-31s' accuracy.

For showroom quality in a 60 yr.+ without paying mega $$$ the M48 is probably your best bet. They can be found in "cosmetically unissued / as new" condition for ~$200. The M48 is a fine rifle, but the sights are horrible and I think 2 or 3 MOA is to be expected.

telewinz
December 1, 2004, 07:13 PM
ended up with a stock with epoxy filled shrapnel-damage, but other than that the rifle is in excellent condition. He was willing to take it back because I was unhappy about the undisclosed damage, but I ended up deciding it was just "character" and kept it. Good choice, I would have kept it also. Battle rifles that are "pristine"...what historic value is that? "Owned by a rear area granny who only carried it to her typewriter and back to the barracks 5 times a week." :D

HarryB
December 1, 2004, 07:24 PM
Swiss K-31 with GP-11 ammo off bags at 100 yards 2X NC Star (i know sigh...)
I jerked that flyer--forgot about that nice trigger!

http://www.photobucket.com/albums/0803/HarryB3/30a1fe64.jpg

http://www.photobucket.com/albums/0803/HarryB3/8330b9c5.jpg

Okiecruffler
December 1, 2004, 07:28 PM
That's a nice looking rig. Who made that mount? Nothing wrong with NcStars. I have 4 of them on various guns, including one that's going through a torture test on my 444 Contender. Granted, my Bushnell's are clearer, but the NcStars ain't bad for what they are. Just finished work on my scout mounted M48A. Last one I had would shoot 1.5" with turk surplus, hope to better with this one with good reloads.

ocabj
December 1, 2004, 07:38 PM
I'd like to get a WWI/WWII-era bolt-action.

It should cost less than $500.

Be in showroom condition.

Look good.

Operate smoothly and flawlessly.

And shoot at least 1.00 MOA.

Closest thing I can think of is an unissued Finnish M-39. Wholesale G&A has some for $250.

Samco has unissued Persian Mausers for $600 with the original factory test target.

Cosmoline
December 1, 2004, 07:42 PM
The only surplus Mausers I know of that will do MOA groups or better on a regular basis are the Swedes. The only 8x57JS Mauser I've seen shoot like that in unaltered condition was a Persian. You might find some of the South American Mausers that will shoot MOA, but they are getting pricey. I had an 1891 Argie that would shoot MOA groups, but only with carefully crafted custom loads using special custom .313" 220 grain slugs.

Best bet for the money in today's surplus market would be a K-31 carbine or an M-39 Finnish Mosin. Both are going for peanuts and shoot very well.

HarryB
December 1, 2004, 08:13 PM
Who made that mount?

It is a Darrell mount found here (http://p077.ezboard.com/fparallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforumsfrm85)

Okiecruffler
December 1, 2004, 09:19 PM
He does some really nice mounts, wish he'd get around to making one for the M48, then I'd replace my B-square.

ocabj
December 2, 2004, 11:42 AM
He does some really nice mounts, wish he'd get around to making one for the M48, then I'd replace my B-square.

YES! The B-Square is garbage. I eventually took the one off my VZ24 and went back to iron sights.

Okiecruffler
December 2, 2004, 01:31 PM
I've used B-Square mounts on M48's, VZ24's, M44's and 91/30's. Never had a real problem with any of them. Tried a mount from Mitchell's mausers and it stripped out while I was installing it. But from everyone I've talked to, Darrel's mounts are the absolute best by far.

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