Winchester model 94 as home defense gun.


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WonderNine
March 1, 2003, 01:29 AM
I've been thinking for a few months about what is the perfect closet gun for home defense on my limited gun budget.

I've been looking at 12 gauge (really want a 10 gauge, but they don't make em anymore) coach guns because they are so cool, but the limitation there is limited capacity although you can get two rounds off really quick and you can't miss with a 12 gauge at close range. In the end I've decided for right now that they're too expensive (for a decent quality one with exposed true hammers).

I've also been looking at M48's and K98 Mausers in 8mm. I really want to get some of these rifles, but you gotta clean that cosmoline off and they're 50 years old and bolt action is more cumbersome than lever action at close range. The plus is that it will shoot through body armor.

Sooooo....I've finally settled on buying my father's 1974 30/30 caliber Winchester model 94 w/50 rounds of 150 grain ammo for $150 :D 7 + 1 rounds of rifle caliber ammo. Can't go wrong there.

It will serve dual purpose as a plinker and deer rifle.

The gun has a little bit of slightly visible surface rust (I hear this is common), but otherwise there is not a mark on it and it has rarely been fired. I think I made the right decision.

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swampgator
March 1, 2003, 01:54 AM
perfect closet gun for home defense on my limited gun budget

Rule #1: Have a Gun.

The 30-30 is a good round, and the 94 is a proven action. Enjoy.

Marshall
March 1, 2003, 02:12 AM
Browning still makes 10 Gauges. I believe 24" is the shortest bbl. You can get 22" in an add on bbl, I think?

Browning Firearm Products (http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/firearms/index.asp)

Pump
http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/firearms/images/012227306m.jpg

Semi-Auto
http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/firearms/images/011146m.jpg

WonderNine
March 1, 2003, 04:27 AM
Sorry, I'm not interested in pumps. They can jam and I believe pumps negate alot of their advantage at close range because you have to pump it to chamber the next round.

And they just don't have the cool factor that SxS coach guns do :D

SKN
March 1, 2003, 04:59 AM
I'd suggest that if you are going to use that 30/30 as a home defense tool on the interior of your residence that you:

1) tactically map your home so you know which are the 'free fire' walls and which are the 'no fire' walls so that misses which overpenetrate will backstop harmelessly;

2) practice a lot, some in low light and without hearing protection unless you have included hearing protection in your home defense plan, to reduce the potential for missing.

JPM70535
March 1, 2003, 05:50 AM
A double barrel shotgun, either 12 or 1o ga. is a good home defense gun bearing in mind its limitations. At normal home distances, 12-15 feet, a shotgun pattern is not going to be very large. You will still have to aim to assure hitting your target.

I would not recommend a 30-30 for an ONLY home defense gun. While it is certainly better than no gun at all, it will suffer from the same restrictions as the shotgun,ie you will have to aim at the target. In addition as has been mentioned, you have to be concerned with the over penetration properties of that caliber. An interior wall wont even see that bullet. (Be sure of what is beyond the wall) The rifle (and the shotgun as well) has an overall length that restricts how fast it can be brought on target. IMO your best bet would be to purchase a used 38/357 revolver. They are not expensive and will give you the ability to load whatever type ammo is appropriate to your situation. A Magsafe or some other frangible loading will give you an excellent stopper with little over penetration, and you can still load rounds that will let you shoot through interior walls or hollow core doors if the need should arise.

Having said all that, your 30-30 is better than the alternative, and recalls the old adage, "First rule of gunfighting, Have a Gun"


GOD MADE MAN, SAM COLT MADE THEM ALL EQUAL!!!

WonderNine
March 1, 2003, 06:02 AM
SKN, I thank you for the friendly advice, but I believe you make it more complicated than it truly is. The odds of a 30/30 penetrating the wall and killing someone outside OR indoors that you don't want to hit in a home defense shootout is alot less than the odds of somebody breaking into your home.

I have practiced ALOT under low light conditions with 9mm and .357 in sub freezing temperatures, but not with rifle rounds. I've also made a point to shoot different loads without hearing protection at the local outdoor range. That is part of the reason why I carry Remington Golden Sabers in my carry gun and larger grain bullets (less noise to create the same energy at close range) are loaded in my 6.5" barrel Ruger Blackhawk. Full house magnums don't make the energy out of a shorter barrel anyways to make it worth the extra noise and recoil.

WonderNine
March 1, 2003, 06:08 AM
I would not recommend a 30-30 for an ONLY home defense gun.

Me either. That's why I would have my .357 Blackhawk as backup or a good 9mm such as a Browning Hi-Power, which I recently traded to my father for the Blackhawk plus ca$h. :D

I load the 6.5" barrel Blackhawk with 165 grain Remington Core Lokt's for the penetration and power minus the noise of a lighter grain. I load my short barreled .357 with 125 grain Golden Sabers.

Sir Galahad
March 1, 2003, 01:25 PM
Don't underestimate the power of a 30/30 to overpenetrate. I've heard of a self-defense shooting where a SKS was used and that round went through the bad guy and then through two houses. The 30/30 and 7.62x39mm are very similar ballistically. I've put 7.62x39 rounds through a froghair under a quarter inch of plate steel at 80 feet. At household ranges, the 30/30 will probably not even expand. If you live in a rural area without close neighbors, that's one thing. But if you have neighbors right next door, I would never condone the use of a high powered rifle unless you have a full scale riot going on out front and you have to defend your life. All it takes is the round you shot an intruder with to exit him, go through your wall, and then go through a 7 year old next door neighbor girl for a good shoot to turn into possible murder charges. They will crucify you, because they'll look through your history and see posts from you here that say you were warned about overpenetration. Don't think they won't access the net in an investigation. They wouldn't even need to anyway. They could find any number of "expert witnesses" to say that you knowingly made a poor choice even in light of the facts known to most shooters and firearms aficianados.

Pump shotguns unreliable??? On what planet? When people think of words to describe Winchester 1300 Defenders, Remington 870s, or Mossbergs, "unreliable" is not one of them.

A valuable piece of advice. When selecting weapons for self-defense, the criteria of "cool" should not be the deciding factor. What WORKS should be.

Soap
March 1, 2003, 01:36 PM
What Sir Galahad said.

Badger Arms
March 1, 2003, 02:00 PM
I'll echo the warning on overpenetration. The 30/30 is a little more powerful than the 7.62x39. When it hits drywall and wood, it's unlikely to expand. It'll just act like a 7.62x39 and go through till its kinetic energy is lost. Should go through an interior wall, an exterior wall, maybe a fence, through somebody elses exterior wall, and still have enough energy to kill a Woman while she caries her infant child in her ARMS MR. HORIUCHI!!! :fire: ..... Wait, wrong rant.

I'd like to take issue with you that pump actions jam... they are less likely in MY experience to jam than are lever actions. Next to an autoloader, pumps are as fast as it gets.

Don't EVER use a single action as a home defense gun. That's a lawsuit waiting to happen. I'll let others chime in on this one if they want.

These things being said, the 30/30 is actually a choice I have made in the past for home defense. Know what your backstop will be and be careful not to hurt anybody innocent trying to defend yourself.

Marshall
March 1, 2003, 04:42 PM
They can jam and I believe pumps negate alot of their advantage at close range because you have to pump it to chamber the next round.

Wondernine, I believe you have to chamber the next round on a lever gun too.
:D

I would worry about the over penetration of a 30-30 round inside the home. I know you have spoke of odds but, everyone always thinks that until it's too late.

I have hunted with these things and seen them blow out the back of tree trunks after going thru game. Not an enviable thing for the home.

My .02

Kestrel
March 1, 2003, 09:03 PM
Wondernine,

What SxS coach guns have you looked at that were better than the cheap ones? I would also like a good quality model with exposed hammers.

Steve

Braz
March 1, 2003, 09:45 PM
EAA has some under $300.

W9, check the SASS forums for some good side by side info. I've got a lever .44 carbine and it handles quickly without as much penetration as a .30-30. But for urban home protection I'd take my 1300 12g every time. If I could afford one, a quality, high capacity auto shotgun would be nice, but a pump doesn't suck. :) With some practice, they are very effective at close ranges.

Get the lever gun anyway, of course. ;) They are true scout guns and can do so much outside the house. A good defensive pump shotgun can be bought later for $200 or so. Lot'sa low recoil shot to choose from too. Have fun.

DMK
March 2, 2003, 12:23 AM
OK, so you don't like pump shotties. What's wrong with a semi-auto 12Ga? Bennelli has one that's good enough for the Marine Corps.

Methinks you need to talk with Dave McC over in the shotgun forum. He'll straighten you out! ;) :D

WonderNine
March 2, 2003, 01:16 AM
Wondernine,

What SxS coach guns have you looked at that were better than the cheap ones? I would also like a good quality model with exposed hammers.

Steve

Well the Rossi's would be better and have actual hammers. I've been watching this one (http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=7644394) for the past two months. Somebody finally bid on it the other day. There is one and a half days left in the auction.

The Rossi can accept 3" magnum shells and doesn't have the automatic safety that is now required by law. (Very lame law) I don't think it can use 3.5" though. And its 12 gauge not 10.

WonderNine
March 2, 2003, 01:17 AM
Don't EVER use a single action as a home defense gun. That's a lawsuit waiting to happen. I'll let others chime in on this one if they want.

What are you talking about?

WonderNine
March 2, 2003, 01:19 AM
Guys and gals, the thing is I WANT PENETRATION. If you've got 3 guys invading your home and are wearing body armor, you want all the penetration through their body armor you can get.

DMK
March 2, 2003, 01:34 AM
That's easy, get a CZ-52 for a sidearm. :)

WonderNine
March 2, 2003, 01:42 AM
That's easy, get a CZ-52 for a sidearm.

That's been my plan for awhile now. I still think I'd rather stick to something more reliable like a revolver or larger capacity like a 9mm Hi-Power though.

megatronrules
March 2, 2003, 03:17 AM
The 30-30 is not the best choice in a home defense caliber. It will punch through walls. Handguns are a good choice for home defense. Shotguns with the right loads are good as well. There are better choices than a 30-30 for house use though.

3 guys with body armor? Did you piss off the wrong people, or live in a really bad area? :D j/k

Steven Mace
March 2, 2003, 05:56 AM
And you would all probably think I'm insane to want a Marlin 336 chambered in .35 Remington for the same purpose.

Steve Mace

Marshall
March 2, 2003, 07:06 AM
Guys and gals, the thing is I WANT PENETRATION
I won't touch that with a 10ft pole. :neener:



Seriously, you hit someone wearing 3 vests with a 10ga slug or 12ga 3 1/2" slug at 7 to 20', the next 5 minutes is your opportunity to do anything you want with them because if it didn't kill em, bring on cardiac arrest or break ribs they will at least need that long to get air back in their lungs. ;)

KPersimmon
March 2, 2003, 07:24 AM
Re: .30-30 as home defense cartridge


I work in law enforcement and had occasion to see the results of a recent shooting (head shot) involving this cartridge and can report with some confidence that the result would definitely not be something you'd want to see inside your house--assuming you actually hit the intruder. The bullet (a 150 grain softpoint, as I recall) penetrated windshield glass, struck the victim's forehead, destroying at least half the skull and brain, and exited the rear window before it traveled some 50 feet and embedded in a hill. Essentially, the victim's brains were blown out in this shooting, which was the result of a family squabble between two intoxicated individuals.

(Sorry if I was overly graphic, but I just felt I had to report this.)

So this is why I personally couldn't okay the .30-30 as an acceptable home-defense cartridge.

CTgunteacher
March 2, 2003, 10:27 AM
If you're seriously concerned about goblins equipped with armor, I imagine you must be living in an urban area, since I've never heard of armored (non-government) thugs invading homes in rural areas. "Urban area" equals neighbors, and you'll be held accountable for every shot you unleash.

.30-30 offers good penetration, great stopping ability, and will defeat soft armor. However, hard armor will stop it, as it will just about anything else you might have for home defense. But a .223 will also defeat soft armor with lesser danger to neighbors or family members. So why not just get a .223 semiauto? .223 will zip through soft armor, but has reasonably low penetration in building materials. See tests at Gunsite and various fed and local police agencies. You can pick up a used Mini-14 for not too much money. It's loud to fire indoors, but so is a .30-30. A semiauto rifle obviously isn't dependent on the shooter for functioning like a manually-operated pump or lever gun.

I'm, umm, not really sure about the Mini-14's "cool factor," though. :rolleyes:

You can certainly miss with a shotgun, especially at in-house distances. Shotguns don't offer much in the way of penetration on armor, but you can always shoot for the head if need be. Even a non-penetrating hit from a 12 gauge on soft armor will take the wind out of most anyone's sails, as another poster noted.

This also has to be the first thread I've ever seen that accused the Remington 870 of being unreliable (!!!). Shooters may be unreliable and short-stroke the gun, but the 870 is one of the most reliable firearms ever designed. A Winchester 94, while a great rifle, is certainly no more reliable than an 870. Most people will tell you that it is considerably less so, in fact. An unreliable shooter can cause a lever action rifle to malfunction as easily as a pump shotgun.

A minor plus for the Winchester is that it is about as politically-correct a rifle as you're likely to find. This may matter more to some shooters than others, especially depending on where they live.

If you're concerned about reliability under stress, pass on the military bolt guns. Shooter error can jam these as easily as a pump shotgun.

Mike

Art Eatman
March 2, 2003, 11:09 AM
I don't mean to be hostile, but when somebody brings up "cool factor" when talking self-defense, I just lose all notions of taking them seriously.

Decent quality pump shotguns are noted for NOT jamming...Of course, any fool can short-stroke--and can mess up with a lever gun, as well.

Since the shot pattern at in-house distances is little more than some 3" or 4" in diameter, never believe that a shotgun is a "can't miss" critter.

Art

Sir Galahad
March 2, 2003, 12:33 PM
Penetration? How about a Cold Steel Boar Spear?:D

WonderNine
March 2, 2003, 08:56 PM
But a .223 will also defeat soft armor with lesser danger to neighbors or family members. So why not just get a .223 semiauto?

I don't have money for those expensive toys made by Bushmaster. .223 is a varmint cartridge anyways.

I don't mean to be hostile, but when somebody brings up "cool factor" when talking self-defense, I just lose all notions of taking them seriously.

Yes, yes, I was only joking. Please, enough already, I don't need to hear ten more guys tell me what a stupid statment it was. Thanks.

CTgunteacher
March 2, 2003, 09:34 PM
I don't have money for those expensive toys made by Bushmaster. .223 is a varmint cartridge anyways.

The Mini-14 I mentioned is made by Ruger, not Bushmaster. A decent used example runs in the $350 range, at least in my area of the country. This is less than, say, a Browning P35 like the one you previously owned and were apparently able to afford.

.223 has shown itself to be reasonably effective on two-legged varmints, if you choose the right ammo. I agree that it isn't quite as effective as a .30-caliber rifle, but I'd take it in a heartbeat over any handgun, including a magnum single action revolver.

Mike

WonderNine
March 3, 2003, 12:02 AM
I stand by my $150 Winchester 94 purchase w/50 rounds of ammo versus the $350 Mini-14.

Mini's barrels heat up too quickly, they are not as accurate as a model 94 which is important for a dual purpose weapon, and Mini's are not going to be as reliable as a lever gun. And model 94 fires a much better cartridge.

No, I'll stick with my new 30/30.

s&w 24
March 3, 2003, 12:37 PM
but don't you have to have a IR/holo/redot sight on a rifle and paint it black before its "tactical".;)

fish2xs
March 3, 2003, 01:10 PM
Disclaimer: I have never been in a home-defense situation. I am not a cop, lawyer or ballistics expert. I have read the occasional book (from Ayoob - or somebody on the topic). His claim is that a 12G shotgun is the single best overall home defense weapon (ideally w/ 00 or 000 buckshot) - period.

Examine the scenarios:
1. masked gunmen w/ body armour enters your house
2. bad guy w/ gun/knife enters your house
3. some unarmed yahoo enters your house

Response to 1. : shoot for the face
Response to 2. : upper body cavity
Response to 3. : Nothing - and I mean nothing- in the world sounds like a pump action shotgun being raked. It is guaranteed to produce the sphincter reaction you are looking for from the invader without firing a shot.

A round which penetrates, does not transfer energy as well as a round which does not. A 12G 00 not only fires several "bullets" with a single trigger pull, but it transfer a tremendous amount of energy. You'll knock them down...

Lastly, a sxs will fire 2 rounds before needing a reload. Pump action will fire 5. My verdict: Remington 870 express magnum. Cheap, super reliable, devastating. I hope I only ever have to use it on deer, but I can very reliably put a slug on a 3x5 card @ 50 yards.

And whoever says you "can't miss" at close range, even w/ a 12 G is selling you something you don't want to buy.

TallPine
March 3, 2003, 10:34 PM
Well, the option that nobody has mentioned is different and/or custom ammo for the 30-30.

If you were to reload, you could "download" the 30-30 to about 357 magnum levels for home defense - even hollowpoints.

Then there is "cowboy" ammo - lead bullets at lower velocities. The recoil is really light. I don't know what the penetration is like, but it would have to be less than a jacketed hunting round.

You better figure out where it hits tho - the cowboy ammo is about 6 inches low (in comparison, that is) at 25 yards. Nice thing bout those 94 sights is that you can change to a different "step" and be right back where you were before, as long as you remember which step is for which ammo.

Otherwise, I agree with everyone else - the 30-30 penetration is crazy for home defense.

But a winchester or marlin in 45 LC ... :)

Fish Springs
March 3, 2003, 11:28 PM
Funny thread. Give WonderNine a break.

I'd be satisfied with an M-94 as my house gun given the reqirements listed in the initial post:

1. Need defense weapon
2. Low capital out lay
And----
3. It is a private party transfer of firearm

While not my choice for concealed carry ;) and will you have to be aware of target and back stop hand guns have this requirement too.

There are some reduced load ammunition and one light bullet load for the 30/30 available.

A 30/30 with garden variety 150 grain softpoints come close to one of the few guns one can own in some urban areas, just because it is a "deer" rifle. It is common as heck, ammo can be found at any Wal Mart and it is not on anyone's "high capacity assult pistol" list. It is not an assult rifle. It does not have much of a fear factor inherent in its design--at least not in this century.

Personally, I like my M92 Winchester (Rossi) in 45 Colt for the same reasons

Get to the range, know where it shoots at 5, 15 and 25 yards and it will make a useful house gun just like it did for most of the last century.

BTW check on this load:

Federal 3030C Hi-Shok Hollow Point 30-30 Win. It is a thin jacketed, hollow point load which may be part of your ammo solution.

Another option would be PMC's Cowboy:
PMC 3030 170 LFP
Mfg #PMC30-30CB

It is a hard-cast, 170 grain, lead flat point. Velocity: 1300 ft./sec.

This one is down to about .357 Magnum power levels....

Not a bad choice after all.

Preacherman
March 4, 2003, 12:43 AM
Another excellent option for defensive ammo. is the Remington Accelerator load in .30-30. This is a 55gr. softpoint .223 bullet in a .30 caliber plastic sabot. It churns out of a .30-30 barrel at HIGHER velocities than a standard .223 achieves out of a 20" AR15, and has just as powerful an impact - but WITHOUT the overpenetration problem of the standard .30-30 load. IMHO, this is the ideal home defence load for the .30-30.

EJ
March 4, 2003, 01:58 AM
Hey--WonderNine--

What kind or area do you live in anyway--?
That's not giving anything away--

IE-- Condo/Apt------------Suburb/lot size------Suburb/acre size
Rural/Farm---etc--

How close is your nearest neighbor??


I live on a wetland where I'm NOT concerned about over-penetration
with a home closer to work--Condo-- Where I am VERY over penetration conscious-- Just a 38 spec with Glasers there--

I think the 30-30 is fine if you live in the right area--

Give us a bit more specifics-- Unless you're uncomfortable with letting that cat outof the bag--

Marshall
March 4, 2003, 04:44 AM
It is guaranteed to produce the sphincter reaction you are looking for from the invader without firing a shot.

OMG, I BLEW SPIT ALL OVER THE DAMN SCREEN. YOU NEED TO WARN BEFORE YOU SAY SOMETHING SO DAMN FUNNY OUT OF THE BLUE!


:D

Soap
March 4, 2003, 11:57 AM
Preacherman,

IIRC you can only load 2 Accelerators into a tubular magazine lever gun. I surely wouldn't want the tubular magazine to explode on recoil! Yikes! I could be wrong however...

Omaha-BeenGlockin
March 4, 2003, 12:20 PM
I just have to keep my mouth shut on this thread---anything I would have to say would just be construed(sp?) as a personal attack on our ill-informed friend.

DaveMc---where are you??

moxie
March 4, 2003, 12:42 PM
If you believe that an attack from 3 armed and armored bad guys is a valid and likely threat, I can't imagine what has happened. I have to assume that they or their employers have formed a distinct dislike for you and as such are going to be professional, well informed, well armed and highly determined. I hope you are in touch with the police. This is combat. I'd need claymores, an M79 and an M60, at least. You're cooked with a '94. Don't fool yourself. Everything else is irrelevant. Talk to the authorities.

Carlos Cabeza
March 4, 2003, 06:23 PM
I have shot through 8" diameter trees at 10 yards with a 30-30. Three shots and I could have pushed it over. Would I use a 30-30 as a HD weapon because I live on 3.5 ac. of a heavily wooded lake lot and the nearest neighbor is 150 yards away? NO, because there is still enough potential left for disaster. I don't want to be anyone's biotch in the graybar hotel. I would never try and test fate with luck, go for a proven HD caliber and then practice often. Go hunting with the 30-30.

Carlos Cabeza
March 4, 2003, 06:27 PM
Oh, there is no need to cop an attitude, People here only try to help and give advice because it only takes one bad incident to tarnish the entire sport.
And with this sport comes RESPONSIBILITY !

Marshall
March 4, 2003, 10:15 PM
WonderNine,

Seriously, all joking aside, here is the deal.

If you and I are in the same house or, you and anyone, and I have a HD 12ga 3" mag shotgun and you have a lever 30-30, you are at a disadvantage based on firearm. That is really the bottom line answer to your question. And, it is a much safer choice too.

Regardless, congrats on your Win 94 lever gun! They are nice guns, enjoy! ;)

Freightman
March 5, 2003, 12:11 AM
If you live inn a rock house then all you have to worry about is windows and doors, but if you live in a frame house you will not believe how far a 30-30 will travel after it has exited your house.
You mentioned a Mauser, worse as I have shot one through 1/2 steel ( by accedent it was behind the target stand) buried in the berm. A pump 12 is a good choice as I have been shooting one for 50 years and it has never failed through that many bird seasons.

AgentOrange
June 15, 2009, 06:12 PM
i use an 8 3/8" S&W 500 for home defense. vests with the best rauma plates money can buy?.....NO PROBLEM. killing my neighbors in the next 5 houses next to me because of over penitration?;........probable....no such thing as "over penetration", at least that what she says.

FlyinBryan
June 15, 2009, 06:19 PM
i use a kimber pro carry for home defense, but i honestly cant remember what i used when the thread starter asked the question.

i believe it was a colt governement model at at time.

Zundfolge
June 15, 2009, 06:49 PM
Sooooo....I've finally settled on buying my father's 1974 30/30 caliber Winchester model 94 w/50 rounds of 150 grain ammo for $150 7 + 1 rounds of rifle caliber ammo. Can't go wrong there.

I think some of y'all are missing the point here.

For the money he's spent I'd say his lever gun is probably just about the best home defense weapon he could get.

No sir, can't go wrong there.

Maybe its not the absolute optimum home defense weapon, but there are a lot of folk defending their homes with a lot worse (.22lr revolvers, PGO shotguns, bolt action deer rifles, harsh language).

Frankly I'd rather have the 94 in 30/30 than a coach gun any day of the week.




EDIT
Aw hell ... just realized this is a serious case of Thread Necromancy ... shesh :rolleyes:

Five-O
June 15, 2009, 07:37 PM
I wonder if the op is still around? I use my old off-duty S&W .38 Chiefs Special AirWeight loaded with two shotshells. From my bed to the bedroom door is about 16'.
In the dark, not fully awake, I doubt if I'd miss. It won't kill anyone, but it'll get their attention. The 3rd to 5th rounds are hp's.
Eddie

Supertac45
June 15, 2009, 07:48 PM
Have you ever shot a 10 guage? A 12 is more than enough and a 20 is great with the right load. For home defense, I'd take a shotgun over a rifle within the home anyday.

SHusky57
June 15, 2009, 08:04 PM
It's a reliable, proven, and aesthetically pleasing gun.
It is fun for the range, an excellent and long-lived hunting firearm, and perfectly capable of home protection.

Yes.

AKElroy
June 15, 2009, 08:21 PM
2) practice a lot, some in low light and without hearing protection unless you have included hearing protection in your home defense plan, to reduce the potential for missing.

Before I tackle the quote above, I have a pre-'64 94 & would rest easy if it were my only SD weapon; good choice for the original post. As for practicing in low light & without ear protection, I can only respond with are you serious? Really? No. Let's remember that ruined hearing is not easily reparable. Keep in mind that an intruder may also shoot you; I assume you are not also advocating shooting oneself in order to practice making a clean shot whilst winged.

flipajig
June 15, 2009, 08:22 PM
Lets see my home defense gun is what i get my hand on first from a 12 gage pump to a ruger 9mm a colt troper 357 a SBH 44 mag or maybe a ruger single six in 22 mag. the business end of a gun all look like a cannons to me..

easyrider6042004@yahoo.ca
June 15, 2009, 08:58 PM
Guys and gals, the thing is I WANT PENETRATION. If you've got 3 guys invading your home and are wearing body armor, you want all the penetration through their body armor you can get.

30-30 projectiles are round nosed. You may want a spitzer bullet if it's body armor you wanna positively penetrate. And if you've got 3 assailants, a lever rifle may not be quick enough.

I'd go with an SKS, not a Win 94.

But seriously, wouldn't you rather move to a safer location?

natman
June 16, 2009, 02:33 AM
Winchester model 94 as home defense gun.
I've been thinking for a few months about what is the perfect closet gun for home defense on my limited gun budget.

I've been looking at 12 gauge (really want a 10 gauge, but they don't make em anymore) coach guns because they are so cool, but the limitation there is limited capacity although you can get two rounds off really quick and you can't miss with a 12 gauge at close range.


Contrary to the popular myth, you CAN miss with a 12 ga, especially at close ranges. The longest shot possible inside my house is 21 feet, that's 7 yards. At that range the shot pattern is only a few inches around. You DO have to aim.

They still make 10 gauges, but it doesn't matter, there is no practical advantage to them for HD use.

Any rifle round is grossly overpowered for HD use. Even a clean hit will penetrate the target, your walls and your neighbor's walls.

You have a fine useful rifle for plinking and deer hunting, but not for HD. Get a Mossberg 500 or Remington 870 Express 12 ga, load it with buckshot and AIM.

http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/shotguns/model_870/model_870_express_synthetic_7-round_specs.asp

http://www.mossberg.com/images/Mossberg_Guns/930/NEW/50577.jpg

Dr.Rob
June 16, 2009, 02:59 AM
You know, people were protecting themselves with firearms long before we had shorty AR carbines and spitzer bullets.

If you are planning on meeting armored opponents perhaps its not the best choice, but hey better to run what you brung rather than a pointed stick and promises. Soft vests will barely slow down a .30-30, are you expecting a visit from Delta Force?

I'd say practice with it, esp handling it in the confines of the house and practice snap shooting and reloads.

There's plenty of cowboy matches and IDPA 'side matches' where you could 'run what you brung' not to COMPETE with other shooters, but to practice with your weapon under 'stress' with live ammo.

Thing is it IS a rifle so you must be aware that if you DO have to shoot it will in all likelyhood go right through what you are shooting at, and you are responsible for every round you fire. 4 rules still apply, even when you're in danger.

natman
June 16, 2009, 03:20 PM
If you believe that an attack from 3 armed and armored bad guys is a valid and likely threat, I can't imagine what has happened. I have to assume that they or their employers have formed a distinct dislike for you and as such are going to be professional, well informed, well armed and highly determined. I hope you are in touch with the police. This is combat. I'd need claymores, an M79 and an M60, at least. You're cooked with a '94. Don't fool yourself. Everything else is irrelevant. Talk to the authorities.

I have to agree with this. There is a good chance that the OP is merely suffering from a mild case of tactical fantasy overdose, in which case it's time to cancel the subscription to Soldier of Fortune and get a more realistic set of requirements.

However, if there is even a remote possiblity of being attacked by three armed and armored assailants, it's time to stop worrying about tactics and make some strategic adjustments to your lifestyle, starting with calling in reinforcements, ie, the authorities.

Unless the armored assailants you are planning to repel are the authorities. In which case it's time to make some major strategic adjustments to your lifestyle before they are made for you.

andyffer
June 16, 2009, 03:22 PM
AK for home defense = FTW

SwampWolf
June 25, 2009, 11:06 AM
As for practicing in low light & without ear protection, I can only respond with are you serious? Really? No. Let's remember that ruined hearing is not easily reparable.

I'll second that motion. Inadvertent (forgetting to employ ear protection) gunshot noise will be experienced often enough to get a flavor of how loud it can be without resorting to deliberate and irreparable hearing abuse. Ask me how I know but speak up!

HoosierQ
June 25, 2009, 11:21 AM
Nice thing about 30-30 as a home defense weapon is the weapon itself. While I am sure there is one, you would have to search pretty hard to find a jurisdiction in which a tube magazine, lever action rifle is illegal. That would seem to me to be a real plus. Same goes for bolt action of course but levers are a lot faster for most people. Of course you might have a hard time finding a box of 30-30 in downtown wherever, but you could always drive out to the 'burbs or the country and find a gun shop.

Another reason I support the lever over the pump...is well, the same reason. Not sure about the USA but I believe that some other countries have put the hex on pumps while leaving levers alone...Australia I think for one.

My father-in-law was going on a driving trip out west and had to cross Illinois which made him nervous and he really didn't have a decent handgun anyway. He is not very educated about gun laws but he was scared to take on and scared not to as he planned to do a lot of driving out in the desert. I was able to convince him that with a lever action 30-30 Marlin in his trunk, his likelihood of running afoul of LE out west (or anywhere) was pretty darned low...67 year old man with a 75 year old rifle in the trunk makes a pretty small blip on a bad guy radar scope.

If I had to live in NYC, a lever action rifle would be what I would get...and I would probably get a 30-30.

9x19sig
June 25, 2009, 08:26 PM
3 armed and armored assailants, ***?

I would err on the side of more firepower, perhaps something belt-fed?

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