Gun Permit Applications Lower then Expected in Missouri


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Jeff White
December 6, 2004, 04:39 PM
So how does this square with the earlier articles the Post Dispatch ran about school employees and prospective foster parents waiting months for background checks becuse all the CCW permits were clogging up the system?

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/missouristatenews/story/69B4BDE30A710B3B86256F62006BF469?OpenDocument&Headline=Gun-permit+applications+lower+than+expected+in+Missouri


Gun-permit applications lower than expected in Missouri
Associated Press
12/06/2004

KANSAS CITY, Mo. (AP) -- Concealed-carry permits aren't the hot ticket some Missouri officials had predicted, with applications in the nine months since the law took effect running far below expectations.

Based on response to similar laws in Texas, Oklahoma and other states, the Missouri State Highway Patrol estimated the first year would produce 60,000 applications for permits to carry a concealed weapon.

Not all counties are issuing permits, and those that do keep their own records. The best indication of statewide application figures is the number of requests county sheriffs made to the patrol for background checks on people seeking the permits. That number was 13,748 since the law took effect in March to November.

"Everybody I talk to says they are not having their doors knocked down with people wanting permits," said Stone County Sheriff Richard Hill, president of the state Sheriffs' Association

In the Kansas City area, Clay County Sheriff Paul Vescovo said applications have dropped every month since peaking at 160 in August, the second month they were available there. The November total was just 27, with the total through November is 511.

"Maybe the novelty has worn off," said Vescovo. "I don't know."

Neighboring Platte County has had 267 applications, 70 percent of them in the first two months, Sheriff's Capt. Frank Hunter said.

Forty-six states now allow concealed weapons, and traditionally the most permits are issued in the first year of availability.

A possible factor in the lower-than-expected number of permit applications is that people don't need a permit to have a concealed weapon in their motor vehicle in Missouri, as long as they don't take it out of the vehicle.

"For most people, that's where they wanted to carry it -- not on their body but in their vehicle," said Capt. Chris Ricks of the highway patrol.

Ricks also noted that Jackson County, St. Louis County and the city of St. Louis, which make up about 35 percent of Missouri's population, aren't issuing the gun permits because of a flaw in the law's wording. If they were, and applications were made at the same rate as the rest of the state, the total would still be less than 19,000.

The law passed last year but was delayed after it was challenged in court. It was upheld in February by the Missouri Supreme Court. However, the court also found that the law was an unfunded mandate in that the $100 fee did not cover the cost of issuing the permits in some counties.

Another issue is that some Missourians, especially from Jackson County or the St. Louis area, have applied to other states for permits, which are honored in Missouri. While the state does not compile figures on the number of Missourians with permits from other states, through August 1,300 state residents sought permits from Florida and 2,500 from Pennsylvania.

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Information from: The Kansas City Star, http://www.kcstar.com

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hillbilly
December 6, 2004, 05:08 PM
I am an Arkansas CCW instructor who applied to become a Missouri approved CCW isntructor in several counties on or near the Arkansas-Missouri border.

I advertised my classes in several southern MO newspapers.

I even set up a classroom rental with a VFW chapter in Missouri, but couldn't get anyone to sign up for the class in two separate attempts.

The reason?

In Missouri's law, if you are 21, have no criminal background, and are a US citizen, you can legally carry a concealed handgun in your vehicle with no permit whatsoever.

That's what I got told over and over and over by potential CCW customers. Once they found out they didn't need a permit to carry in their vehicles, they lost all interest in getting a permit.



hillbilly

flatrock
December 6, 2004, 09:35 PM
For those that want to carry outside their cars, a Florida permit is awfully appealing for a little more money since you can carry in a lot more states.

trapshooter
December 6, 2004, 10:15 PM
Reason? Easy. Most of the donkey-posteriors 'teaching' CCW classes are charging about three times what the 'training' is worth (more than twice the price of the permit itself). It (most of the 'training' offered) is worth probably 50-75 bucks, from most of the 'courses' I have seen. If they had an option to pass a written test and do the range portion for that price, without going to 'ccw skul', it would probably be more popular.

As it is, anyone with a clean DD214 can get a Florida permit by mail for (IIRC) $115. Why would anyone in that situation pay some dork $250 or so to 'teach' him what he or she should already know? Then pay the Sherf another $100? Trainers are not in the market, regarding price. It's that simple. But it's a good racket if you have the proper 'instructors' credentials. Especially when, as has been noted, you can now have a gun in the car if your over 21 and a non-felon.

Now I can sit back and wait to be flamed by the supposed 'instructors' trying to justify BS prices and idiotic stuff they do to try and justify what they charge. :D :evil:

lbmii
December 7, 2004, 03:12 AM
Trapshooter,

So does Missouri honor the Florida permit?

Do you have any web sites that spell out how to get the Florida permit?

Is the $115 every year?

Did you get one?

ponyexpress
December 7, 2004, 12:07 PM
Missouri honors all other CCW's.

For the most complete info on how to get a Florida permit I would go to:

http://www.packing.org

If I remember right the Florida one is good for 5 years.


Hillbilly - I've heard much the same thing up in the northern part of the state too.

hillbilly
December 7, 2004, 01:23 PM
Trapshooter.....My Arkansas course is $75.

Because I was going to have to go all the way up there (driving distance was at least 50 miles one way) with all my stuff, plus haul the attorney with me, I was going to charge $100 per Missouri student.

Even then, my MO CCW class price was about $25 less than what some folks in Ark charge for the Ark course.

Still no takers.

hillbilly

Dog
December 7, 2004, 02:48 PM
How long are the classes? Here they are 8 hours and cost $60. Price set by Oklahoma State Legislature. I don't know if I would pay over $300 dollars for something I could do for free (at least somewhat the same thing anyway) either.

ponyexpress
December 7, 2004, 03:14 PM
The classes are 8 hours long as mandated by law. It's a full 8 hours too in order to cover everything required under the legislation.

I paid $100 for mine although I see that most instructors are charging $125 - $150.

Bill S.
December 7, 2004, 05:24 PM
Ditto on the out of state Florida permit. They will accept my DD 214 as certified safety training, saving me the cost of the class. It also doesn't hurt that by having an oos permit, it is not tied in with my MO driver's license.

bogie
December 7, 2004, 07:40 PM
Hey, the class I went to (taught by fellow THR member John Ross) was both enlightening and FUN.

$100 _very_ well spent.

I suspect that since a lot of the folks balked at the initial issuing, folks instead said the heck with it, and sent their $100 bills OUT OF STATE.

Typical.

WDG
December 8, 2004, 02:24 AM
The problem with the MO CCW is that if they cahnge the law the sheriff could yank your permit and make you go through it all again. I think most are waiting for the law to get straightend out before applying.

cobb
December 8, 2004, 09:34 AM
They probably made those figures known to try to scare people as usual.

In Minnesota they perdicted 90,000 new permits or guns on the street, and the combination of previous permit holders and new permit holders is estimated around 30,000. Our shall issue law has been in effect just over one and a half years.

trapshooter
December 9, 2004, 06:21 PM
hillbilly,

What you are offering sounds reasonable, given the distances, etc. John Ross is good too. The biggest problems I see are classroom and range time/accessibility, or the lack thereof. I'd go eat John's food and shoot his guns, as that alone would be worth the c-bill. But in the end, I'd have to spend more than that to get there. Too far. That's why your offer is reasonable, and more, in terms of price.

My point is, if I had a burning desire to do it, for fifteen more bucks, I'm done by mail, with no annoying 'classes' and, frankly, unneccessary range time required. But thats just my perspective.

Bottom line, I know how to shoot, thank you. And, I learned how to read statutes many years ago. Not having a memory-lapse problem, I can remember most of what I read after a short session, too.

Keep in mind, I can have a gun in the car dang near anywhere I go, since I'm not into bars, etc., and in fact I don't go out much at all, as I can generally find more entertainment at home than I can handle anyway. I don't do much 'discretionary' walking around in places I consider risky, is my point.

Nope, I don't have a Florida permit. Or any other kind, at the moment. I pay attention, and am capable of doing what I see fit to protect me and mine, without doing anything that I think would risk the unwarranted attentions of local law enforcement. (Many of whom I know anyway, because we hang out at the 'right' supply emporium). I have had permits in other states, both private and 'professional'. But I was younger then, and got out more.

Don't misunderstand. I'm not really personally fried over the expense, as it's chump change (for me). It's the whole package regarding my time, etc. I think anyone who wants to get one should. I just think a bunch of folks did the out of state permit by mail deal, and don't see the need to feed the beast twice. What's funny is before all this became big business, my last two 'private' permits cost me a grand total of twenty bucks, in two different states. No skul required, no range. Just my word that I knew what I was doing, and the knowledge of my liability if I screwed up. One of those was in a 'may issue' state that mostly doesn't, as Mr. March is aware. But I was in the right county.

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