[riverdog]

I was at the Trap range today watching Trap Doubles and mentally going thru the motions of using a Rem 870 in this game (my $225 WingMaster:) ). It looks doable but I was wondering if anyone else here shoots Trap with a pump shotgun -- okay anyone besides Dave McC :)

How about Skeet and Sporting Clays? Skeet should be doable but I'm thinking I'll need a lot less than full choke. Sporting Clays (5 Stand) seems to be a little fast to do well with a pump shotgun regardless of choke. The folks I saw using pumps weren't meeting with a lot of success. Seems the O/U rules.

Any comments?

[HSMITH]

I have shot many thousands of targets with a pump, an 870 express for most of it. It can be done and done well. For skeet a cylinder choke or IC is best, same for most 5 stand layouts. Honestly doubles trap is the hardest of all for a pump. Skeet is simple really, and most sporting shots are easily done with a pump.

[PJR]

At one time or another I've shot all the games with a pump gun. If you are driven to attain higher scores the challenge is greater with a repeater than a semi auto or over/under. I don't think new shooters should start shooting skeet or sporting with a pump gun unless that's all they have. There's enough to sort out in both games without having to remember to shuck the action.

But if you're just out having fun and like shooting pump guns. Why not?

Paul

[Dave McCracken]

The current Ohio SC champ uses an 870, I hear.

Fred Etchen used a brand new 870 in 1950 he bought just before the event. He shot the first 100 straight in doubles recorded at the Grand with it. He did another 100 straight in the 1980s, with the same 870. He made the All American team a hoop of times with an 870.

Trap Singles is a piece of cake with a pump as far as operation goes. Same with Handicap.

I've shot relatively little skeet, but see no major problem with an 870.

SC and 5 stand pose plenty of probs for me, but not because of my weapon of choice. I've shot plenty of real teal and bunny wabbits, but never had them do like their namesakes on the courses.

One thing, if one can obliterate a little clay frisbee moving at 35 to 50 MPH in one direction and then acquire another moving at a different speed and direction and treat it similarly, one attains a level of expertise that's excellent for "Serious" usage or hunting.

And if someone ASKS why you use a pump, just smile quietly and say you like a challenge...

[riverdog]

Thanks for the wise counsel. I'll stick with what I know for now and use the games to improve my skill with an 870 rather than switching guns in an attempt to artificially raise my score. It should be a good way to determine my limitations. Saves me a bunch of coin too; Berettas and Brownings are not cheap.

[Dave McCracken]

You're welcome. As for determining your limits, yes but it also will change them.

Brownings and Berettas are good shotguns. But I doubt you'll hit many more whatevers than with that 870. Any shotgunner without an 870 in his/her battery is not as well prepared as one with.

[riverdog]

For the typical 5'9" 160# shooter, which barrel length is optimum for skeet and sporting clays? I'm thinking that for the short range passing shots a 26" barrel would work well, but what does experience say? I'll probably stay with the 30" Full for Trap. Thanks again.

[Dave McCracken]

Next 870 project seems to be obtaining a 26" Light Contour bbl, have Greg Wolfe do the cone, and use same for 5 stand, skeet, SC and so on. It'll have a 3" chamber so I can try out those Hevi Shot goose and duck loads, and a series of tubes from Cylinder through Extra Tight(.685").

It'll be used on both my TB and Frankenstein.

While I'm bigger than you by a good margin, I think this size barrel will work nicely for you.

The 30" Full barrel on the TB will be used for most trap, and this new barrel will be for the other stuff, possibly including a dove shoot or two.

Much as I like shooting at PGC, the 23" barrel rule irks the heck out of me. Since Frank's present barrel is nominally 21", I cannot use it there.

If your club isn't so biased, a riot style barrel does good work for the closer shots. I doubt I could damage my average at 5 stand by going to a Cylinder or Police Cylinder bored 18" barrel, and changing loads for the longer shots instead of chokes. Try one and see if you can.

HTH....

[Detritus]

last time i visited my clubs shotgun range i did so with a Stoeger "coach gun" (18" barreled SxS) and did just as well as the other 4 shooters present, on everything except Trap (gun has fixed cholkes, and the chokes are fairly open). the laughter i heard when i first brought the gun out died and never returned.

some of the "cowboy" matches i've been too occasionally hold "cowboy skeet" and "cowboy clays" of varying types. as side matches. you use the same shotgun that you used for you "main match" gun. for tha majority of shooters this means a Stoeger or Winchester '97 (or clone) coachgun. most folks i know, would be surprised by the scores many people rack up.

[riverdog]

Thanks for confirming the 26" barrel. I'm considering a dedicated skeet barrel with 2 3/4" chamber, I have never used 3" shells, so not having 3" capability isn't really a loss.

I plan to try my 20" rifle sight slug barrel for skeet also; I really want to work it against moving targets. Thanks again.

[InternationalShotgun.com]

There are actually few better ways to really learn to use a pump shotgun than to shoot skeet with it. It reinforces most of the shotgun fundamentals.

[Dave McCracken]

Detritus,it's not the shotgun,it's the shotgunner. Those Stoegers aren't the fanciest around but they're durable and go bang when needed.

Riverdog, a good choice. 3" capability is nice to have but not mandatory...

InternationalShotgun.com, good to see you. Hope to shoot with you again some time at PGC. I will stop by your site this AM.

Skeet, trap or rats at the dump, the best way to learn a shotgun is to use same.

[riverdog]

Dave,
Went with the 3" chamber after all. Also picked up Briley Skeet choke and Full choke tubes to supplement the Mod RemChoke tube that comes with the barrel. I'll see how these work and will get add'l chokes as required. I'll try both the 30" Full bbl I have and the new 26" RC bbl on Trap to see whether there's an appreciable difference.

[Dave McCracken]

A coupla things, Riverdog....

First, pattern both barrels for POI/POA and see if they match. Should be fairly close, but feces occurs.

Second, the three chokes ought to be plenty, one can tailor loads to a particular shot by switching components or brands. For instance, Fed Walmart Specials have nice hard shot, according to a reputable source, and pattern a bit tighter than other brands of generic 8s.Instead of mo' Brileys, spend a tubes's worth of money on a cone job. This mimics a tighter choke, but what it really does is keep more pellets in the pattern.

Third, most folks can break more birds at 16 yard trap in the beginning using a modified choke, all else equal. But, a Full choke will teach you to stay on the bird better. You'll lose a few birds now and gain them back later, plus some.

Fourth, the shorter barrel may feel very close in weight and swing to that 30" job, due to the extra weight at the muzzle from the Remchokes.

HTH, and enjoy...

[HSMITH]

Find a local shop with the Hastings Extended chokes, they are cheaper than Brileys by a bunch and just as good.

Dave Dave Dave Dave!!!!!! "Three chokes ought to be plenty", that is HERESY!!!! A guy needs a PILE of chokes, not to shoot but to pattern and play with.

On a serious note, I would pick up something in the .022-.025" constriction and use that for my trap shooting if it patterned well. Tight chokes will tell you a lot about what you are doing right and doing wrong if you are looking. Tight chokes are a darn good learning tool once the basics are firmly in hand.

[riverdog]

Chokes are a topic of their own, but when reviewing choke tubes, I found it interesting that the choke terms are not the same from different manufacturers. Remington's Skeet choke is overbored by .003 at .732 while Briley's Skeet choke is constricted by .005. Modified chokes are the same at .020 constriction while other chokes vary about .001. The choke (I believe) HSMITH recommends is Briley's Imp-Mod at .025. Remington skips from .020 (modified) to .029 (single). Their Full chokes are similar but I suspect that the difference in performance will be measurable. Briley has an interesting read at http://www.briley.com/ Select "Articles" on the left column and then, "What chokes are you using?". An interesting excerpt:
quote
"It is an unscientific science and I really do not have the slightest idea how it works, and I don't think that any of us knows exactly how it works. There are propositions that it works like fluid dynamics, but that isn't correct. All that I know is that the information that we have is based empirically. We go and do this, we have this kind of constriction or this kind of geometry within the choke, and we shoot them and see the effect." unquote

Thanks for all the help guys. It will be interesting to compare the barrels I have first hand and get my own empirical info.

PS: Dave, what is a "cone job"?

[Dave McCracken]

Relax, H, no need to sic the Tube Police on me yet.

First, I've a mixed set of Hastings and Colonial tubes for Frank. The Super Full Turkey tube does a yeoman job, 90% plus patterns at 40 yards with the Remington Duplex 6X4 load.IIRC,about 18-20 pellets in a turkey head/neck silohuette.Frank's bobbed off barrel does have a good 1 1/2" cone job.

CONE JOB:

Not a perverted practice but a lengthening of the forcing cone to reduce the pressure spike and the shot deformation that may occur at launch.

Second, three quality tubes will cover the gamut for Joe Shotgunner. However, often a given load will match up with a particular tube and do much better than can be expected at a given distance.

This takes patterning(There's the P word again).

Sometimes 5 POC makes no difference in pattern, sometimes a big jump occurs when going up down one little increment. "Cut and Try" still is a good practice. Some things we don't know about shot clouds and never will.

Bill Gillette, the nomadic genius of Big Ridge Gunsmithing, says the best all around choke for trap is about 25 POC. That's Improved Modified on most scales.

Also, when I get that LC barrel with its 3 standard tubes, I expect to do some swapping at the dealers so I don't duplicate the Remchokes on hand. I'll end up with Cylinder, Skeet, Light Mod, Mod, Improved Mod and Supertight. That enough, H?

[Britt]

I'd think that an 870 would be more than adequate for trap or skeet. I actually shoot trap with a BT-99, inherited from a family member that no longer shoots, but all of my skeet shooting is done with a Winchester Model 12. While my shotgun selection (and score) proves nothing relating to how well they work, try to remember that Herb Parsons also shot pump guns, specifically the Model 12. I doubt if he had much trouble on doubles.
Good luck, BD

[HSMITH]

Riverdog is right, that would be an improved modified from Briley. Hastings has a much simpler system. The choke is numbered, that number (6 for example) X .004" = (.024") the constriction of the choke in question. 0-10 are usually stocked by dealers, and with .004" increments it is hard to not find one that works. Beyond the #10 numbers are available, and some dealers stock them as well. a 2, 4, 6, and 10 will cover most anything in clay target shooting.

Cone jobs, IMO need to be a minimum of 1.5", and 2.5" is better yet. I have seen very little improvement if any in short cones with all but large lead shot. The longer the cone the more it seems to help with smaller shot, and large shot too. If you are not going to get at least 2" lengthening I would not spend the money. I have done cones from 1" to 4.5", and have not seen much if any improvement over about 2.5-3" long. Witrh birdshot a cone job is marginally helpful, steel shot it is a waste, and buckshot it helps.


That is a pretty good battery of chokes Dave. Drop the Cyl choke, add a "darn tight" in there and it would match my own ideal set.

[Dave McCracken]

H, the two best smiths I know, Greg Wolfe and Mr Gillette, say that more than 1 1/2" is not useful.

All of us seem to agree that longer cones are good, we differ on the amount.

The cone job on my oldest bbl, chokeless and 18", seemed to reduce pattern size with 00 nicely, though basically it was just keeping one or two flyers in each load from uh, flying.

Too late now, but I should have patterned Frank's barrel with the turkey load of choice before and after the cone job to compare apples to apples.

[HSMITH]

Dave, call me stupid, but I cut the cone on the same BPS 4 times, 1", 1 1/4", 1 1/2" and 2" long. Straight taper from the chamber diameter to the bore diameter, cut on a lathe and polished out with 1200 grit polish, nearly mirrored. I shot some patterns with it and did not see much if any difference on the pattern board with birdshot, #7.5 and smaller. I did not shoot much buckshot through that gun ever, and my record keeping on that project does not exist. I was doing it for my satisfaction only, and for the "farting around with cool gun stuff" factor. The 2" cone was the best for me with that gun in all loads. I have cut a few cones since, but I start at 2" if the material is there, and have cut to 4" long before just for kicks on an express barrel. Unless shooting large lead or buck most cone work is a waste IMO if you have to pay for it. I am lucky enough to be able to do it myself. Felt recoil to ME is a little better, but not nearly as improved as a slow powder makes it feel IMO.

Maybe if I get the urge again I will actually make a scientific endeavor of it, and cut the same barrel a couple times again. It proved it to me, but without documentation it is just a story.....

[Dave McCracken]

Stupid is about the last thing I'll call you, H.

I've a hunch the point of diminishing results varies with the shot size. IOW, 7 1/2s may do best, all else equal,with a cone of X length, and 6s with one plus or minus something. Splitting hairs, perhaps.

Nest time the urge strikes, how about patterning with a quality load, and comparing the patterns as far as center loading goes as the cone gets longer. Got another hunch that center loading will increase as the cone lessens deformation. But only testing will prove or disprove this.

[HSMITH]

Dave, center loading DID go up in the original testing I did, but it did not seem out of proportion to the fringe areas. Your hunch on a cone length for the best patterns with a particular shot size seems true to me as well. I patterned #9's, #7.5's, #4 Steel, #2 Steel and BBB Steel with the different cone lengths. Steel made ZIP differences no matter what, that crap shoots where it shoots with the choke LOL. The smaller the shot size the less differences I saw, in other words a skeet shooter is wasting money to have cone work done unless he is near the top of the game IMO. Trap shooters with the #7.5 shot will see some benefit, but I am going to be the last guy to say it has cost anyone a target, the patterns I shot were just not a great deal better. The #7.5 shot did see a difference as early as the first cut, and it seemed to get better and better as the cone got longer.

I have another 870 Express and an 1100LC barrel here still sporting the cone mother Remmy sent them to me with, I think everythig else is backbored and coned in my collection now. With any luck I might get around to working on it this summer. Too bad we are not neighbors Dave, would be nice having a testing partner. I could see this getting quite technical and lengthy. Some buckshot would also need to be included, and 20-50 patterns with that is not a lot of fun LOL.

[Dave McCracken]

Agreed on testing partners, H, we'd make one heckuva set of neighbors. The Oberfell and Thompson of the New Century(G)....

As for center loading, this will improve things for folks using the lighter loads, like 7/8 and 1 oz in 12 gauge. Pattern density HAS to have that one pellet in every 2 sq in to be effective with smaller shot.

I'm using 7 1/2 shot now for trap instead of 8 1/2. I like the more emphatic breaks from the bigger pellets in cold weather.

I may still get the cone done on the TB one of these days, but only in conjunction with opening up that .695" choke to .708", or getting tubes installed. I want a 16 yard trap gun, not one for turkey shoots.

Steel shot is another universe, and I for one am glad there's now alternatives.

[riverdog]

If shooting just 2 3/4" shells, how much difference will a lengthened forcing cone effect 2 3/4' and 3" chambered barrels? The reason I ask is that I have two 30' Full Choke barrels, stock from Remington -- one 3" and one 2 3/4". Which would gain the most from a forcing cone job? I suspect the 2 3/4" barrel will see the most benefit. I am considering sending it to out to have both the forcing cone and Screw-In Choke Tubes installed. The idea would be to make this a dedicated Trap barrel. Comments?

[Dave McCracken]

This borders on a guess. IMO, it'll improve things but quantifying it may be beyond the ken of any man.

Given that 25 FPS more or less velocity can visibly affect patterns, a primer swap can change pressures by several thousand PSI, even a wad swap that produces effectively no change in pressure or speed can affect the pattern, it's really hard to state accurately that having a cone lengthened by X will result in Y pattern.

Side bennie,kick reduction is a given, again hard to quantify.

Best answer is try and see. And yes, I'd do ONE barrel. You pick....

[riverdog]

Dave,
The best of plans can be ruined by the facts. My intent was to stay with a single choke system so I didn't end up with a bunch of different chokes. Apparently the Rem Choke can't be installed in a Remington barrel aftermarket and a different system would need to be installed. The diameter isn't there to accomodate RC. That said, I'll be staying with the fixed Full Choke that's in the barrel and will just have the forcing cone lengthened. Much cheaper that way and from what I've read (both here and elsewhere), will do a world of good pattern-density-wise. For now though, I'm going to throttle back on equipment issues and just shoot, gotta use up some ammo to see where I really stand.

[Dave McCracken]

Good approach, I hate to see nice old barrels cut up, even though I'm guilty of doing so in the past.

Frank's barrel is set up for the old .795"X44TPI Truchoke system. I use Colonial and Hastings tubes, no probs to report.

OTOH, there's three choke systems here, and I wouldn't mind simplification.

A small favor, pattern that barrel with a standard load prior to and after doing the cone.
I plan on so doing when I pick up a new barrel, Maybe we can get some empirical evidence to see just how the pattern adjusts.

I plan on shooting three patterns each time and averaging the hits. If you do the same we can compare apples to apples. Thanks...

[riverdog]

The most I'd do to the 30" bbl is the "cone job". I smoked a number of clay birds with it today (not all of them, but enough to keep me coming back). I shot a few rounds of Trap with both the 30" FC and the 26" RC with the Full tube. The 30" felt better than the 26". Not a loss though, I'll still need the 26" for Skeet.

All I need to do now is stop missing. On more than one occasion I had the bird cold, straight going away aspect, target right on the front sight, squeeze, boom -- nothing, no hit, bird keeps flying as I keep tracking it over my sights. Beats me ...

BTW, I picked up the book Dave recommened, "The Clay Target Handbook" by Jerry Meyer and "The Complete Book of Shotgunning Games" by Tom Migdalski. Both are very good reading before starting Clay games. I'll be reviewing them tonight, maybe try to figure out how those birds dodged the shot :)

[HSMITH]

The 30" felt better than the 26".

Sounds like me, I have yet to meet a shotgun barrel that was too long to shoot, and yes I have shot the old Marlin Gooseguns. 36" of barrel sure does swing nice, but that bolt action sucks for true pairs. :neener:

Not a loss though, I'll still need the 26" for Skeet.

Don't get caught in that short barrel for skeet thing. Some of my best scores are with a 30" Ruger Red Label SC, a 30" Citori Special Sporting and a 425 Browning with 32" tubes:what: The 425 with the 32" tubes moves well, as does a 30" 870. Lots of guys out there shoot short barrels and are hurt by it IMO. If you have the luxury of a couple barrels try them all, and try the other guns you have the chance to shoot. Skeet shooters are notoriously bad for trying to get you to shoot a round with thier favorite shotgun. Take 'em up on it!! Shoot a 24 or a 25 with a 410 and see what you are looking for for the next year LOL.

Same for sporting clays, LONG barrels are easier to shoot for all but the smallest/least strong of us.

Try different barrels and guns, sooner or later you will know what you need to play your games. It will just fit.

[riverdog]

Try different barrels and guns, sooner or later you will know what you need to play your games. It will just fit. I was looking at Browning 525's today. That will probably be my next non-870. Right now the reason the 26" is my skeet barrel is because of the chokes. 30" is a fixed Full while the 26" has the RC set-up and I've got the right tubes. A 30" RC would be nice but I need to work on the rationale before buying another barrel.

The only non-12 ga I have is a 20 ga Red Label. That might be a fun gun for Skeet. Again though, it's an older gun with fixed chokes. Fun and games ...

[Dave McCracken]

H, a mild disagreement....

Short barrels work well for most anything provided balance is correct for that game and shooter. Short barrels tend to move the balance point towards the butt, which means less inertia keeping the swing swinging.

I do shoot the TB with its 30" barrel very well, even better than Frankenstein and it's 21" nominal barrel. But, I've also shot it more in a shorter period of time.

Our finances will improve soon and I'm treating myself to a new barrel in a few months. I've been vacillating between a 26" LC barrel and a 30" one.

Right now the 30" version gets the nod. I've got lots of short barrels here. Time will tell....

[HSMITH]

Actually I think we are in agreement Dave, and that I just did not make my point effectively. Short barrels are fine for anything in shotgunning, but longer barrels are easier to shoot for most all of us. Balance is a personal thing that may or may not fall in line with the other preferences.

My point to Riverdog was just that he should not get caught in the "you HAVE to have a short barrel for skeet, and a long barrel for trap, and an in between barrel for sporting clays, and THAT IS THE WAY IT IS!!"

Shoot different barrel lengths and guns, sooner or later something is just going to jump out at you as the one for you. Even play around with taping weights on the gun in the house, if one feels good go shoot it that way. Weight and balance are a HUGE issue in how a shotgun feels and moves.

I have shot 98's with an 18" cylinder bore 870 on the skeet field, but I have also done it with a 28" remchoke barrel on the same gun. It was easier for me with the longer barrel, but you have to try it to find out what fits the way YOU shoot.

[Dave McCracken]

Good points, H. I don't see many Tablets of Stone with something like "Thou shalt use long barrels for____" at the range.

Balance and "Feel" are purely subjective. Results are objective, with a score card or heavy weight in the back of a hunting vest.

One nice thing about 870s,among many. Adding or subtracting weight here and there means one can play with the balance until something happens. Between using those trash hull/shot recoil reducers and a mag cap with a 1/4" hole in it to aid mounting another weight further forward, there's lots of things to fiddle with.

[riverdog]

I've been shooting Trap singles for a while now with my Wingmaster and breaking birds quite regularly -- nothing to brag about but my numbers keeps climbing. I recently tried Skeet with it also. Singles were no problem, but shooting Trap singles left me with some bad habits for when the doubles come up.

When shooting singles racking the slide is a rather casual afterthought and I single load through the ejection port rather than using the magazine. Well this has led to some very bad muscle memory when shooting Skeet doubles. I nail the first bird and when I swing to take the second, the dead hull is still in the chamber. I beat this a couple times but I had to really concentrate on racking the slide immediately following the first shot. I took both birds on a couple of occasions, but it was a forced mental exercise rather than a natural motion.

Doubles with an 870 is very doable, but if anyone wants to start shooting any of the Clay games with an 870, I strongly recommend you start out with Skeet or Sporting Clay and NOT Trap singles. A few of the guys recommended I switch to an autoloader or an O/U. While I do intend to buy an O/U, I really need to fix this problem first.

Therefore, I won't be shooting Trap for a while. I'm planning to do some dedicated Skeet doubles work from the stations that require doubles. Shoot a few rounds only from those four stations. Hopefully I can train in some muscle memory so that racking the slide is more natural and not an afterthought.
Skeet shooters are notoriously bad for trying to get you to shoot a round with thier favorite shotgun. BTDT. One of the guys I shoot with swapped me his Lightning for my 870 during our second round of Skeet (he shot the 870 extremely well); the Lightning may have helped ruin me ;) A high quality O/U is so nice it feels like cheating compared to an 870. I will definitely be getting an O/U, but first I need to finish what I started with the 870. An O/U is good for games, but a good pump gun with an extended magazine can do so many other tasks well. Once I really feel comfortable with an 870 shooting doubles, I'll treat myself to an O/U :)

[Dave McCracken]

Thanks for posting that,Riverdog.

A suggestion....

When you set up for those doubles, use more pressure than you have been with the support arm pulling the weapon back into the cup of your shoulder. This will get the stroke started and remind you that this is not a single.

HTH...

[riverdog]

Dave,
If I pull back on the forearm as you suggest, will the bolt immediately open on firing the first round? I'll try it will some test dummies first.

[Dave McCracken]

Yes.

Pulling the shotgun back into the shoulder with the forward hand will get the pumping stroke started and done faster.

HTH...

[riverdog]

Thanks, that may be the fix. We'll see next time out.