So what is the strongest action ever?


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stevekl
December 7, 2004, 01:15 AM
Title pretty much says it all. What is the strongest action ever developed? I would guess it's the '98 Mauser, but I dunno.

Anyone have an opinion?

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Third_Rail
December 7, 2004, 01:24 AM
Ruger No. 1, perhaps.

RooK
December 7, 2004, 01:43 AM
Mauser 98 is weaker than modern designs due to the split lug.

4v50 Gary
December 7, 2004, 02:41 AM
If we're talking WW II era bolt actions, the Japanese Arisaka tops all. Read that in Hatcher's Notebook.

Third_Rail
December 7, 2004, 02:44 AM
Weren't a few Arisakas re-chambered for 30-06 without being rebarreled? Strong, strong actions...

pete f
December 7, 2004, 06:40 AM
I have been told the BRNO Magnum Mauser that was chambered for I think the .505 gibbs was the strongest currently made.

Weatherby makes some claims that would need to be at least disproved seeing as to the pressures they claim to operate at.

I too have seen anecdotes about the 6.5 jap. I believe PO Ackley tried to blow a few up and had trouble doing so.

Years ago I was in the gun shop when a guy came in and said he had jammed his model 700. He said he had shot at a deer but the kick was amazing and then he could not get the bolt open. The smith and I went to the basement to figure it out. We pulled the Stock and it was an ADL and he had three 270's and one 308 in the magazine. Putting the barrel vise on the bench and clamping the barrel into it, the smithy tried to lift the bolt. no go. Getting a leather mallet he tapped firmly on the bolt handle. nope.
A lead bar and a ball peen hammer finally got it to move, much wiggling up and down finally got it out. The cartridge head was for all intents welded to the bolt head, it would not move. The owner was invited down and shown the relative length of the brass in the bolt and the length of the 308 casing and realized what he had done... slamming the bolt forward had seated the bullet even deeper into the casing and had created enough resistance on the neck area of the chamber to resist the firing pin and allow the primer to ignite.

The rifle was sent to Remington with questions about was it safe, the rifle returned several months later with a letter saying that the action and barrel had been miked thoroughly and was in spec, They said the bolt was in spec but they had replaced it because the handle was loose and they had scratched it while prying the case head out of the bolt head. We called and talked to one of the techs who had worked on the rifle and he said they had taken a rifle off the line and loaded a 308 into a 270 and put strain guages on it and came up that the peak pressures were in the neighborhood of 110000 PSI and the bullet left the bore at something like 4700 fps. No wonder it kicked.

I can not find the links now, but I remember reading that certain Ak-47's had been tested to proof loads of over 140 kpsi and had functioned. This would be bourne out too by a video I have seen floating around where a bus drives over an AK and soldier picks the weapon up and in getting up off the ground sticks the barrel in the mud and he then pulls the trigger doing a mag dump. The flash hider gets blown off the rifle but it is loaded and fired again at the end of the video.

Khornet
December 7, 2004, 08:29 AM
all action types and eras, I think the various falling-block actions have proved the strongest. That is, a falling-block for .505 Gibbs is stronger than the equivalent bolt action.

Art Eatman
December 7, 2004, 09:44 AM
The weak link in any rifle system is the cartridge case itself. So, for actions with a rotating bolt, a push-feed system is naturally better than a controlled-feed as more of the cartridge case is surrounded by steel.

A single-shot falling block action chambered for a rimmed case would probably be the strongest, given the greater amount of resistance to rearward shear forces.

There well could be some other design, of course, but I'm just looking at the more common...

Art

Jim Watson
December 7, 2004, 10:42 AM
F.W. Mann had Neidner build him a multi-lug single shot bolt action they called the Hamburg rifle because the early varmint loads they shot left nothing of a groundhog but hamburger. The lugs were cut as an interrupted thread and literally screwed the bolt up against the casehead, zero headspace. It also had a development of the Neidner gas proof firing pin used on single shots that "took care of the primer" at proof load pressures.
He said it would fire a load that would bulge the barrel and not even blow the primer. Steels are better now and you run into things like the Remington with the casehead fused into the bolt recesses.

There is no serious doubt about the .30-06 Arisaka story, the rifle was tested by the NRA and widely described at the time. Thing is, P.O. Ackley ran some tests with oversize bullets and concluded that if the chamber was correct, with a neck diameter that would let the brass release the bullet, that pressure would not be all that high. As he put it, the bullet is sized to fit the barrel by the time it has traveled its own length, which occurs before peak pressure is reached.

BigG
December 7, 2004, 11:14 AM
The 7.7 Arisaka runs .303 bore .311 groove, IIRC. .308 bullets should not cause a lot of trouble, imho.

captain obvious
December 7, 2004, 12:54 PM
The story goes that the 30-06 rounds were fired out of an unmodified 6.5 Arisaka, not the 7.7 version, if I recall correctly.

Gewehr98
December 7, 2004, 12:57 PM
P.O. Ackley ran his tests on the earlier 6.5x50 Arisaka, the other Arisaka found in WWII. Essentially, he fired .30 caliber bullets through a 6.5mm bore, after reaming the Type 38's chamber to accept the 63mm-long .30-06 round. The actions survived, and the recovered bullets looked impressive after they were swaged from .308" down to .264". As he progressed with the experiment, he got the rifle's barrel to launch downrange eventually, but the receiver was still essentially intact afterwards. (As an aside, I highly recommend the Ackley books, Vols. I & II)

The Type 99 Arisaka was the one chambered in 7.7x58 Jap. A lot of those bringback Type 99's were rechambered to something called a .31-06. ;)

SkyDaver
December 7, 2004, 12:58 PM
I would think that the Navy 16" would be the strongest ever. They WERE rifled, after all.

:neener:

Although on second thought, didn't the IJN battleships have 18" guns?

(I'll go back to lurking now.)

Bwana John
December 7, 2004, 01:31 PM
I would think that the Navy 16" would be the strongest ever.
Didnt the Germans have 22" guns on the Bismark and Graf Spree?

Id always heard about the Arisaka, Id probley vote for the Ruger #1 in man portable, at a reasonable cost.

Scottmkiv
December 7, 2004, 01:44 PM
Wouldn't one of the single shot 50 bmg rifles bein the running? Something like the Serbu?

buzz_knox
December 7, 2004, 01:54 PM
No navy has ever used a 22" naval rifle. The largest were the 18.1" on the Yamato.

The Bismarck carried 15" guns. The Graf Spee was a smaller class (a pocket battleship) and carried 11" guns.

nbkky71
December 7, 2004, 02:28 PM
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the Remington Rolling Block action...

rbernie
December 7, 2004, 02:35 PM
There's always the French 520mm Schneider howitzer. :eek:

RooK
December 7, 2004, 03:25 PM
Speaking of Arisakas, I have my grandfather's WWII Type38 (6.5) capture he got from somewhere in the Philipines...

http://markii.org/images/art38.jpg

It's definately a stout action, yet the bolt is one of the simplist designs I've come across. They also have this unique bedding that involves a couple seperate peices of metal lying under/on top of the receiver or trigger guard.

Clean97GTI
December 7, 2004, 03:30 PM
I recall reading of tests done on all bolt action rifles of WWII.

The Arisaka's outlasted others on sheer round count as well as insane proof loads. Other rifles were utterly destroyed while the Ari's kept on firing. Shame that so many of them were made so cheaply.
I've got a nice mum-intact 7.7 Arisaka that is unsafe to shoot. The quality of the steel just isn't very good.

Onmilo
December 7, 2004, 03:58 PM
The Mauser 13mm anti tank bolt action.
The Steyer anti material rifle action.
The Barnett M82 for a semi auto action.
For a sporting rifle it would have to be the Weatherby.

41mag
December 7, 2004, 05:01 PM
What about the rotating breech of the Magnum Research Lone Eagle?I know that it's a handgun[well,sort of],but IIRC,the action deseign was marketed as being the strongest out there.

Beings that it's based on a cannon design & all.

tex_n_cal
December 7, 2004, 09:22 PM
I recall the Winchester High Wall was commonly used for laboratory proof testing in the early 1900's, even though they weren't made of terribly high strength steel - they were virtually impossible to blow even with deliberate proof loads. Hard to imagine what they'd do with modern steels, like a Carpenter Custom 465 that yields at 200,000+ psi :eek:

Jonathan
December 7, 2004, 09:36 PM
Production, commercially available?

Probably one of the falling blocks. The 1874 Sharps has some serious overkill, as does a highwall thickside. Remington and Ballard just aren't in the running, sorry. :D

Coltdriver
December 7, 2004, 10:04 PM
Gewehr98 does not do PO Ackley justice!

Ackley set out to discover which of the available bolt actions were the strongest. He loaded them in a methodical and progressive way.

He purposefully loaded them with heavier and heavier loads until they blew up!

Ackley concluded that the very best among them was the Japanese arisaka.

I would also vote for the Ruger #1. If you look at the high end of the 45-70 loads you can put through it there is not much that will survive those pressures.

Gewehr98
December 7, 2004, 10:10 PM
Gewehr98 does not do PO Ackley justice!

And I doubt anybody really could do the gentleman justice. Look at what the man did in his day, with what he had at his disposal!

In reverence, I do own a 6.5-300 Weatherby Magnum because of his craziness with wildcat loadings. :D

Coltdriver
December 7, 2004, 10:17 PM
Gewehr98,

Anyone who owns PO Ackley's books is all right with me. I just had to raz you a little bit. Not many people have read his books. I have his volume I and II and they are must read material for anyone who is looking into hand loading.

I too got into reloading because of Parkers writing and his work with cartridges. The man was really one of a kind.

Gewehr98
December 7, 2004, 10:31 PM
And I do run some serious, "ohmygawd" .45-70 handloads through my own .45-70 Ruger #1S. Gotta love those 405gr Beartooth bullets whistling along at 2100 fps. I have to go home after shooting just 10 of them on a given day at the range. It's ok, I only need one round for the American Bison I'm going after in the not-too-distant-future. :D

http://mauser98.com/rugerbenchsmall.jpg

aerod1
December 7, 2004, 10:36 PM
Falling block would be my first choice for strongest action types.

Jim

tex_n_cal
December 7, 2004, 10:59 PM
:D I read Ackley's books as a young boy. Dad got his loads for his .22 Varminter(similar to the .22-250) from Ackley - as I recall it was 35 grains of 3031, behind a 55 gr bullet, for 3800 fps, in reformed .250 Savage cases. can we say DO Not Attempt - this load exceeds all currently published maximum loads :evil:

.250 savage cases were a bit roomier in those days, I guess, Dad never blew anything.

As for me, I would like to have a .22-250 Ackley Improved.

Then again, a .22 Eargesplittenloudenboomer might be fun, too. :evil:

Gewehr - you keep enticing me to go buy a .45-70 with that damn photo. I know where there's one with nice wood. Stop it, damn it. :) Don't you wish Ruger had made their .405 #1's in the medium sporter, instead of the too-heavy tropical rifle?

Anyway, back on topic - I think just about any falling block rifle will burst a barrel before it blows the action. I can't ever recall anyone kabooming a falling block, of any kind.

CaptainCrossman
September 3, 2012, 09:14 AM
old thread worth reviving, IMHO the strongest bolt action ever made was the Weatherby Mark V, with the Remington model 700 a close 2nd.

If speaking of milsurp actions- the Enfield 1917 is strongest, followed by Mauser 98, then Springfield 1903

I don't know where the Arisaka fits in but I'd assume it's a bit weaker than the Enfield 1917, but stronger than a German Mauser. The Arisaka "may" be as strong or stronger than the Enfield 1917, but I'd have to see it, or read an accurate test, to believe it.

if you read up on the Weatherby torture test, even jamming a bullet in the barrel and firing another behind it, that gun will not blow up.

this is impressive

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weatherby_Mark_V#Proof_Testing_of_the_Mark_V_Action

Proof Testing of the Mark V Action

Weatherby had intended that the new action would be the safest and strongest bolt action available. The rifle was marketed as the "The World's Strongest Bolt Action." The Mark V action has been tested to be able to contain up to 200,000 psi (14,000 bar) of pressure.[4]

The testing of the rifle was conducted on a production rifle chambered for the .300 Weatherby Magnum. Before testing was to be conducted very thorough measurements of the rifle were taken so as to provide a benchmark for the testing which was to be undertaken.[5]

The first test was conducted using a 180 gr (12 g) bullet propelled by 82 gr (5.3 g) of Du Pont #4350 powder. This load provided 65,000 psi (4,500 bar) of pressure. This load did not show any pressure or extraction issues with the new Mark V action but caused a slight sticking of the cartridge case in the Mauser style rifle design. Subsequent testing was performed using the same 180 gr (12 g) bullet and using a powder charge of Du Pont #4350 which increased by increments of 2 gr (0.13 g) for each test thereafter.[2]

The second testing which was conducted with the 84 gr (5.4 g) showed no signs of pressure nor issues with extraction even though the measured pressure was close to 75,000 psi (5,200 bar). Firing this load in the Mauser rifle led to a blown primer and extreme difficulty was experienced in extracting the spent case.[2]

Using 86 gr (5.6 g) of Du Pont #4350 the cartridge began to show signs of pressure in the Mark V action. However, the case did not stick and extraction was performed easily. Breach pressure was found to be between 85,000–95,000 psi (5,900–6,600 bar). Measurements of the spent case showed that the case had stretched at the belt a mere .0005 in (0.013 mm).[2]

The spent case from the 88 gr (5.7 g) test lead to a slightly sticking case which in turn lead to a slight difficulty in opening of the bolt. Measurements from the case belt showed that the belt had expanded from .533 in (13.5 mm) to .535 in (13.6 mm). The pressure generated by this load was 100,000 psi (6,900 bar).

The fifth test conducted used a load of 90 gr (5.8 g) of Du Pont 4350. Firing this load lead to some difficulty in opening the bolt and the case was extracted when opened. The case of the belt still measured .535 in (13.6 mm). A difference in the diameter between the bolt head and the diameter of the barrel of .002 in (0.051 mm) per side was noted. No bulging of the bolt, receiver or the barrel was noted. Headspace was measured to be the same as prior to the testing.[2]

Further testing was conducted with a 180 gr (12 g) bullet lodged in the throat of the barrel. A cartridge loaded with the standard charge of 78 gr (5.1 g) of Du Pont 4350 and a 180 gr (12 g) was fired into the back of the first bullet. It was found that both bullets exited the barrel. The primer had been pierced and the exiting gas entered into the bolt and hit the firing pin sleeve which was loosened slightly. The bolt was opened by hand but the cartridge stayed stuck in the chamber. When the case was tapped out it was found to be in good condition except for its pierced primer. It was found that the barrel, just in front of the receiver ring had expanded from 1.147 in (29.1 mm) to 1.1496 in (29.20 mm). The diameter of the bolt head had expanded from .7178 in (18.23 mm) to .7190 in (18.26 mm). The head space had increased from .2163 in (5.49 mm) to .2174 in (5.52 mm). All other dimensions had stayed constant. This test was conducted 15 times. A test was conducted with a 220 gr (14 g) bullet lodged in the bore of rifle and a 180 gr (12 g) grain bullet was fired into the back of this bullet. The result of this test found that the cartridge case head had expanded to .545 in (13.8 mm). After these additional 15 tests it was found that the head space was set back only a mere .001 in (0.025 mm).[2]

CaptainCrossman
September 3, 2012, 09:18 AM
The Remington 700 can withstand a 30 caliber bullet being fired through its 280/7mm caliber bore. The story is popular on the net, some guy loaded his Rem 700 280 caliber with one 308 round in the magazine, and on the 2nd shot chambered the 308 and fired it. The larger case taper enabled it to go off, and jammed the gun. He sent it back to the Remington factory. They took it apart, and duplicated the process on another new gun they had, and took measurements. The 30 caliber bullet was swedged down to 28 caliber as it left the bore at over 4700 fps, and 170,000+ psi or more. The gun survived and once unjammed and the case removed, was fully functional. Remington changed out either the barrel or bolt as a safety consideration and returned it to the owner.

highlander 5
September 3, 2012, 09:44 AM
I remeber reading an article on Ruger's testing the limits of their No 1 Rifles. Ruger engineers took a No1 in 7 mm Rem mag filled the case with Bullseye with a 175 gr bullet on top. The rifle was then test fired,engineers figured preasures to be somewhere north of 100,000 psi but the rifle staued intact. I've had several Ruger No1 mostly 45/70 and have pushed 300 gr bullets upwards of 2400 fps recoil was a beast but if you want to hunt any thing on this continent short of an Abrams M1a this is the route to go.

floorit76
September 3, 2012, 09:49 AM
Posted in this thread by Pete F in Dec of 04...
Years ago I was in the gun shop when a guy came in and said he had jammed his model 700. He said he had shot at a deer but the kick was amazing and then he could not get the bolt open. The smith and I went to the basement to figure it out. We pulled the Stock and it was an ADL and he had three 270's and one 308 in the magazine. Putting the barrel vise on the bench and clamping the barrel into it, the smithy tried to lift the bolt. no go. Getting a leather mallet he tapped firmly on the bolt handle. nope.
A lead bar and a ball peen hammer finally got it to move, much wiggling up and down finally got it out. The cartridge head was for all intents welded to the bolt head, it would not move. The owner was invited down and shown the relative length of the brass in the bolt and the length of the 308 casing and realized what he had done... slamming the bolt forward had seated the bullet even deeper into the casing and had created enough resistance on the neck area of the chamber to resist the firing pin and allow the primer to ignite.

The rifle was sent to Remington with questions about was it safe, the rifle returned several months later with a letter saying that the action and barrel had been miked thoroughly and was in spec, They said the bolt was in spec but they had replaced it because the handle was loose and they had scratched it while prying the case head out of the bolt head. We called and talked to one of the techs who had worked on the rifle and he said they had taken a rifle off the line and loaded a 308 into a 270 and put strain guages on it and came up that the peak pressures were in the neighborhood of 110000 PSI and the bullet left the bore at something like 4700 fps. No wonder it kicked.

hang fire
September 3, 2012, 02:25 PM
Uh, BigG, the tests &c were performed in a 6.5×50 Arisaka.

351 WINCHESTER
September 3, 2012, 08:16 PM
It's too bad we didn't ask the Japanese how they made their actions so strong.

WardenWolf
September 3, 2012, 10:13 PM
It's too bad we didn't ask the Japanese how they made their actions so strong.

The Arisaka action is a Mauser-based action, but with a few local adaptations. It functions similarly to a Mauser 96, being a cock-on-close, but of course has a significantly beefed up bolt and receiver. I'm not exactly sure how they changed their locking lugs, but the results were undeniably impressive. Ackley couldn't get the Type 38 to fail, and the Type 99 was the very last to fail, proving Japan had the top TWO strongest rifles of the war.

ZigZagZeke
September 3, 2012, 10:52 PM
I have a Remington rolling block No. 1 sporter that is chambered for .357 Mag. It probably develops some impressive pressures with cartridges containing fast burning pistol powder. The 28" barrel produces 1785 fps with standard .357 Mag pistol loads of 158 gr. hollow point. The gunsmith who converted it for me said people had tried to blow up a Remington rolling block action on purpose and failed miserably.

bushmaster1313
September 3, 2012, 10:55 PM
One of these:

http://i1270.photobucket.com/albums/jj603/bushmaster1313/CIMG0044_0001.jpg

bushmaster1313
September 3, 2012, 10:56 PM
One of these:

http://i1270.photobucket.com/albums/jj603/bushmaster1313/CIMG0044_0001.jpg

R.W.Dale
September 3, 2012, 10:59 PM
Your gunsmith is wrong.

Rolling block actions are not especially strong and are only suited to 45k psi or so with the weak link being the hammer pin shear strength.

357 magnum is 35k psi cartridge and is well suited to a vintage roller.

Me I have one of the Italian reproductions in 357 mag.

lobo9er
September 3, 2012, 11:27 PM
How do the Mosin Nagants compare to these tough guy actions?

fireflyfather
September 3, 2012, 11:47 PM
The mosin is fairly robust, particularly the bolt is, shall we say, "overengineered". It probably doesn't hold a candle to the Arisaka, though...

Joshua M. Smith
September 5, 2012, 12:40 AM
Hello,

A certain gunsmithing school got the Mosin action to stretch a bit by loading the case full of Bullseye and a heavy bullet for a compressed charge.

They had been building up to this to see where it would fail.

A Google search will kick the experiment up; I'd rather not go into details here as I might get them wrong.

The Arisaka might be stronger, but not by much.

http://www.smith-sights.com/resources/new.png

Fishbed77
September 5, 2012, 01:13 AM
This:


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_r_QMlQonaVc/TQ2ewaoZFJI/AAAAAAAAAAk/C1d248vVz5Q/s1600/dora.jpg

Scherer Gustav & Dora 80cm (31") railway guns. They were rifled.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwerer_Gustav




.

StrawHat
September 5, 2012, 08:05 AM
(reposted)

StrawHat
September 5, 2012, 08:06 AM
... The gunsmith who converted it for me said people had tried to blow up a Remington rolling block action on purpose and failed miserably...

Your gunsmith is mistaken. The Rolling Block is not a strong action. Adequate for the purpose but not strong. Loads that have blown up rolling blocks have proven safe in the Springfield single shot rifle, commonly referred to as the Trapdoor and most consider the Trapdoor to be not very strong.

Pete D.
September 5, 2012, 10:27 AM
all action types and eras, I think the various falling-block actions have proved the strongest. ....

+1 about the falling block. Used by Ruger on its #1 and by Browning on its High Wall 1885 and by a host of others also.
There is also the cannon breech mentioned earlier that was used on some handguns like the Lone Eagle.(maybe only the Lone Eagle)
Pete


PS - That railway gun is truly amazing. Even the M65 Atomic cannon was way smaller at 28cm.

Ky Larry
September 5, 2012, 07:15 PM
.505 Boys Rifle?

Trent
September 5, 2012, 07:18 PM
Heh yeah that railway gun is plenty strong.

These are also quaint.

http://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/detail.asp?armor_id=568

I worked out the math, it'd cost upwards of $20,000 in powder to fire one, at today's powder prices. Not to mention the cost of the ~2,400 lb projectile...

WYcoyote
September 6, 2012, 01:41 AM
This

http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo121/mjkbpics/Guns/Battleship_USS_Iowa_firing_broadside.jpg

StrawHat
September 6, 2012, 07:43 AM
WYcoyote,

Absolutley awesome photo!

Wheraway and what ship is that?

Trent
September 6, 2012, 04:24 PM
That looks like the Missouri. I'm not a naval guy though so I might be wrong. :)

My cousin was stationed onboard the Missouri for 12 years, including during Gulf 1 (think that was the last time those main guns were fired in anger.)

Trent
September 6, 2012, 04:25 PM
Nope, I was wrong. That's the USS Iowa.

Same class as the Missouri, though. :)

Clark
September 6, 2012, 08:04 PM
I have overloaded a lot of guns.

a) A's; Ruger #1, Handi rifle break action, Stevens break action 410 converted to rife, Sav 219 break action

Pros; These are way stronger than the brass. They have just a firing pin hole in the breech face.

b) B's; 98 Mauser, Win M70

Pros; double stage gas filter on the firing pin in the bolt.
Extra lug in the rear.

Cons; Has an ejector slot in the breech face
When the case head blows, pieces of the extractor go to where a shooter's head might be.

c) C's; Rem 700, CZ527, 96 Mauser, Arisaka [Sorry Ackley]

Cons; bad gas path
Rem 700 has an extractor and an ejector feature in the breech face, but a good firing pin fit.

d) D's; Sav 99, 303 Lee Enfield, AR15s

Cons; stretches the brass

e) D-'s: SKS

Cons; blows the firing pin out the rear of the bolt.

WYcoyote
September 6, 2012, 10:06 PM
Nope, I was wrong. That's the USS Iowa.

Same class as the Missouri, though. :)
Yes, good job.
It is the USS Iowa.

hang fire
September 7, 2012, 01:07 AM
IIRC, read that it was in the metallurgy, supposedly the steel and heat treatment of it was outstanding.

hang fire
September 7, 2012, 01:09 AM
IIRC, read that Strength of the Japanese rifle actions was in the metallurgy, supposedly the steel used and heat treatment of it was outstanding.

clance
September 7, 2012, 01:22 AM
The Double Barrel break action rifle. I believe until recently the only way you could get a Nitro Express (NE) caliber was in the Double Rifles. This was mostly due to the metallurgy, the metals of today are much stronger then they were say 60 years ago. In the mid 1960s is the first time I ever heard of someone building any thing but a double rifle using a NE round and that was base on a up sized Mauser 98 action.

http://images.gunsinternational.com/listings/100256051-8-L.JPG

StrawHat
September 7, 2012, 07:47 AM
...The Double Barrel break action rifle. I believe until recently the only way you could get a Nitro Express (NE) caliber was in the Double Rifles. This was mostly due to the metallurgy, the metals of today are much stronger then they were say 60 years ago. In the mid 1960s is the first time I ever heard of someone building any thing but a double rifle using a NE round and that was base on a up sized Mauser 98 action...


As you point out, the Nitro Express rounds need an upsized action to handle the extra length of the cartridge. NE cartridges are long to lower the pressures involved for the caliber. Lots of shorter cartridges are loaded to way higher pressures to achieve similar or better ballistics. Overload a NE cartridge and the break open action will come "off face" and require expensive corrective surgery.

Clark
September 7, 2012, 12:10 PM
clance

The Double Barrel break action rifle. I believe until recently the only way you could get a Nitro Express (NE) caliber was in the Double Rifles. This was mostly due to the metallurgy, the metals of today are much stronger then they were say 60 years ago. In the mid 1960s is the first time I ever heard of someone building any thing but a double rifle using a NE round and that was base on a up sized Mauser 98 action.

I have here a PESCO Borg Warner handy book of formulas 1968 that my father was using to design guns back then. I shows on page 3-7 a table of Rockwell C hardness vs tensile strength.
RC 20 is 108 ksi, and it is linear up to RC 60 at 314 ksi.

Here is Ruger's chart of their cast steel will do for strength
http://www.ruger.com/casting/T-Steel.html

Other than when Ruger famously wanted to turn their 44 mag into a 454 by boring it out, and they had to pass proof loads, you will not hear many stories about the strength of steel holding back some gun design.

It does not matter how strong a steel is, it still has the same stiffness.
And we keep adding extra steel mass to cut down on felt recoil.

Look at a typical 98 Mauser very thinly surface hardened, but annealed at the core. That action weighs 2 pounds 15 ounces.

If you want a 98 Mauser in 600 Nitro Express, they weigh more and cost more, but I doubt the steel is any stronger. It is just scaled up in size.
http://www.heymusa.com/heym_bolt_action.htm

The steel need be no stronger, as they just add more soft steel, and it stays easy to machine, and does not warp after heat treating.

Trent
September 7, 2012, 12:46 PM
Yes, good job.
It is the USS Iowa.

Well, in all fairness, there were only *4* of them built, so it wasn't too hard to figure out. :)

fguffey
September 10, 2012, 08:48 AM
“So what is the strongest action ever?”

I do not know, it is boring to discuss the topic, most common answer is “Ackley welded the barrel shut etc. etc.”, “...and could not blow ‘it’ up...”.

Forget the action, I want the cases, if the action did not blow up, was not rendered scrap or did not swarm some credit should be given to the case.

Most have never seen a Model 38 or Model 99 in parts and pieces, I was being told the strongest action in the world was the Japanese Model 38 and 99, I handed the person telling the story a model 38 and 99 action then asked him how the two actions would compare with the ‘Strongest action in the world”. He responded by critiquing the front receiver ring, “Look!! The front receiver ring is cut more than half way through from front to back” The Model 38 has a huge extractor cut, tall, wide and long, so much for ‘more’ metal.

Then there is the barrel stub, the chamber goes from the stub to the barrel, forget the tapper. a small group of gun types in FT. Worth, TX. made an attempt to destroy a M1917, they got tired and bored, they loaded up a case to the maximum (capacity) with pistol powder, pulled the trigger, the rifle held together until the bullet got about 1 foot from the muzzle at which point the barrel took on the appearance of ram horns. They hung the rifle on the wall for all gun enthusiast to see, I have no clue where the rifle is today.

In attempt to help a friend zero his rifle a ‘too eager’ shooter purchased new ammo and with the rifle went to the range, after he fired the first round he found himself at a gun shop in N. Texas, as the SMITH tells the story, the ‘too eager’ shooter was going to sue everyone. Hours later the Smith ask the shooter about the ammo, the shooter had a receipt and a box of 19 unfired rounds, the Smith ask him if he checked the markings stamped on the barrel before he purchased the ammo. Anyhow, the rifle was chambered to 25/06, the ammo purchased was 308 Winchester, then came the speculations as in “I bet that bullet was 3” long before it got down the barrel”.

I personally do not care, my opinion, the only way the bullet could get longer would require the bullet to be pulled out the barrel, not pushed, in my opinion the bullet was turned inside out, the lead core went first then came the jacket. The Smith checked the rifle, charged the man and then returned it with warnings, do not be ‘too eager’.


Anyhow, forget the receiver, I want the same cases that were used in the/an attempt to blow up the rifle.

The only discussion I have been involved in that included the phrase “Strongest action in the world” that was not boring was with a smith in Hawaii.

F. Guffey

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