[MeekandMild]

From the article:

Finally, it was over, and the real education began, with speaker after speaker speaking out in emotional terms about how terrible multinational, vertically integrated fish farms were and how complete revolution was necessary.The link (http://www.nationalpost.com/commentary/story.html?id={EFA04585-F669-4F5E-B46E-3209CB8B5FEA})

[Preacherman]

Excellent article! Thanks for posting this. I forwarded the article's text to the API list for everyone's enjoyment.

[Wildalaska]

Well Im not a lefty, but agree with the anti fish farm crowd to a great extent.....

WildsalmonisbetterAlaska

[JohnBT]

As usual, the young have the energy to revolt, but not the sense and experience to know what to revolt against.

I can almost remember those days.

John

[CZ-75]

I used to have respect for David Suzuki and his PBS specials and work in genetics, but I'm guessing he's another socialist trying to use his scientific background and standing to push through social programs that are beyond his expertise, all couched in the vocabulary of science.

[hammer4nc]

Watermelons: green on the outside, red on the inside. The socialist/communist theme is one of the strongest subcurrents in the environmental movement. Usually downplayed by the media, but quite apparent if you spend any time around them. Good example here, thanks.

[publius]

Good article, M & M. The anti-capitalist enviro crowd frequently fail to appreciate the fact that if we didn't farm, many of us would starve and the rest of us would be busy despoiling those precious wild places.

If you're reading this instead of starving, thank a farmer. Billions Served (http://reason.com/0004/fe.rb.billions.shtml).

[Justin]

...which is the new name of the anti-globalization movement. The fact that it seems to have been absorbed into the current peace movement shouldn't fool you. It is busy on other fronts, with magazines and hand-out newspapers, travelling film festivals, lectures and an enormous amount of activity on the Internet... Does anyone else find it highly ironic and/or hypocritical that the anti-globalization movement is using the internet?:scrutiny:

[Keith]

Fish farming is banned in Alaska, yet these farmed fish have been caught now in EVERY major river system; escapees from Canadian fish farms far to the south.

To understand what this means, you have to know a little bit about wild salmon. For example, each river has a different strain of fish that is adapted to conditions in that particular river. For example, silver salmon in the Kenai weigh about 7 pounds, while silver salmon here on Kodiak weigh 14 pounds - in effect: smaller fish to run up into the shallow tributaries of the large systems on the Kenai, larger fish to breed in the short deep rivers here on Kodiak. Additionally, each of these fish are resistant to specific diseases and pathogens found in various river systems. Even the eggs are different, fish that spawn in the upper tributaries of mainland Alaska must be able to survive being frozen solid, while SE and Kodiak fish eggs are laid in rivers that never freeze. These are completely distinct sub-groups of fish that have become genetically modified for particular river systems and each river in the state has runs of the of the five species of pacific salmon that are specifically adapted in very important ways. Screw up that genetic material and the run dies.

When you start releasing these hybrid fish into the wild (which is exactly what happens every time a storm shakes up those floating nets and pens), these fish simply follow their spawning pull to any river that presents itself and they leave their genetic material to degrade the wild salmon.

And I'll point out something else - wild Alaska salmon prices were 6 cents a pound last year! Why then, do you ask, are the farmed Canadian fish still competitive? Because the Canadian government subsidizes farmed fish! AND, our own FDA allows farmed fish to be labeled as "organic", even though they must be fed dye pellets to get the proper pink or red flesh as well as loads of antibiotics to keep them healthy. Is that organic? Yet, wild fish CAN NOT be labeled "organic" because fisherman can not show they have been fed natural foods... So, the American public buys this dyed, antibiotic laced Canadian fish because it is "natural" and they avoid the wild fish because they are not labeled as such....

If you want to support socialist subsidies, then buy farmed Canadian fish. If you want to support capitalism, then buy wild Alaska fish.

Keith

[CZ-75]

If you want to support socialist subsidies, then buy farmed Canadian fish. If you want to support capitalism, then buy wild Alaska fish.


You did a better job of explaining that than some ultra-left think tank member did.:D

[Keith]

Well, thanks! I think the lefties are right in this case, even though they are right for the wrong reasons.

Keith

[publius]

Very interesting stuff, Keith!

Although I'm a huge fan of technological farming (see the article I linked for why), I'm definitely no fan of subsidized farms. I don't really care about the dies and antibiotics, though I'm sure I would if I were they type of person who seeks out the "organic" label.

I wonder if you could clear up an apparent contradiction in what you posted. You suggest that because of specific genetic mutations, each river has, in effect, its own sub-species of salmon, and others would find it difficult or impossible to survive in those rivers. You also suggest that hybrid salmon surviving and reproducing in those rivers could spoil the very genes which allow survival in that area.

Wouldn't they have to survive and reproduce in order to do that kind of damage? And if they can survive and reproduce, well, what do they need the special genes which allow that for?

Which came first, the roe or the filet? ;)

[CZ-75]

But you SHOULD care about antibiotics.

Antibiotic resistance is a MAJOR problem and the possibility of super-bacteria that can't be treated is VERY real.

Livestock are believed to be a major source of these, thanks to regular administration of anitbiotics.

[CZ-75]

Wouldn't they have to survive and reproduce in order to do that kind of damage? And if they can survive and reproduce, well, what do they need the special genes which allow that for?


All salmon of the same species have the same number of genes.

Interbreeding would, most likely, be a slow process, because the farmed hybrid salmon AREN'T very well suited to survive in the wild, and the offspring of only a few would survive. Still, the possibility exists, and there is short term major damage that could occur if a whole farm of fish escaped if the males fertilized eggs of wild females and the wild males fertilized the eggs of hybrid females. This would mean a decrease in the number of purebred wild salmon that might take a decade or two to shake out.

[Keith]

>>>>>I wonder if you could clear up an apparent contradiction in what you posted. You suggest that because of specific genetic mutations, each river has, in effect, its own sub-species of salmon, and others would find it difficult or impossible to survive in those rivers. You also suggest that hybrid salmon surviving and reproducing in those rivers could spoil the very genes which allow survival in that area.<<<<<

Well, you have to understand that the difference between a healthy run and a dead run are measured in just a few fish per thousand. It varies widely by river and species, but in general terms; for every hundred eggs layed in the wild, perhaps one of those eggs might survive to return and breed. The difference is that thin. So, only a slightly depressed survivability rate can destroy a system in a few years.

Remember that the farmed fish is going to fertilize or be fertilized by a wild fish that is suited to that river, so... it still has a reasonable chance of laying eggs that will survive. To grab a number out of my behind, maybe these cross-bred fish have a survivability rate of 90% of the pure wild fish. So, you still have these bad genes returning in succeeding generations and you still have these farmed fish finding their way into the rivers each season to further pollute the gene pool.

This isn't all theoretical, these are hard lessons learned back in the 50's and 60's when none of this was really understood. Back then biologists would "seed" rivers with fish carrying what they thought were desirable qualities, larger fish, or fish that ran earlier or later in the season to even out the commercial harvest - things like that. Well, in a few short years they absolutely destroyed runs in a number of large systems. It has taken many years of husbanding the genetic strains from particular river systems to repair all of this.

Here's a weird example of how touchy all of this is - an example of how even an INCREASED survivability can destroy a run. One of the rivers on the Kenai (I think it was the Anchor river) always had a fairly poor red salmon run because fish in that system laid less eggs than reds elsewhere. Well, "Way back when..." some genius decided to cross breed them with another strain that laid more eggs. And it worked beautifully for a few years with larger returns of fish. Until.... after enough of these hybrids returned the number of smolts grew beyond what the rivers and lakes of that system would support. The entire run began dying out because the smolts ate everything and died before getting back to sea. They all starved out, as well as starving out the other species of salmon in the river.

They've fixed all that now and the lessons have been learned. Don't mess with the original genetic material of wild salmon.

Keith

[publius]

That's interesting stuff. You've also answered my next question, which was, might we not benefit from some of the hybrid qualities introduced into wild fish, possibly resulting in larger and/or more fertile fish. Bad idea, huh?

[MeekandMild]

Keith, :D

You are saying that each river has a family of salmon which is adapted to it. These salmon breed together marrying cousins one generation after another sort of like the old Hatfields and McCoys or the folk on the movie Deliverance? So the law of survival of the fittest kills off the ones with two heads and the ones which can't play the banjo very well? Then over time you get various breeds or as it were clans of salmon whose family trees don't branch? Then they return to their same rivers year after year?

You are saying that the escapees from the farms go out and go up whichever river they want, sort of like the city slickers in Deliverance? Then they breed with the local girls producing children, which are not as fit for the local environment?

So if the captive salmon do this what is to stop the wild salmon from McCoy River from swimming up Hatfield River and doing the same thing? Converesly what is to prevent the escaped captive salmon from returning to their own river to breed just like the Hatfieds and the McCoys? :confused:

[Keith]

>>>>>So if the captive salmon do this what is to stop the wild salmon from McCoy River from swimming up Hatfield River and doing the same thing? Converesly what is to prevent the escaped captive salmon from returning to their own river to breed just like the Hatfieds and the McCoys?<<<<<

Wild salmon are imprinted with the river of their birth and they'll only return to that river. Farm salmon are born in artificial fresh water tanks and then dumped in salt water pens and so they have no imprint to a particular river. So, when freed they'll eventually go up any river at all when they can't find the one they were reared in.
Of course, once such a fish spawns, any surviving offspring will continue to return to that river.

Keith

[Wildalaska]

Keith you also forgot to mention the important thing...wild salmon tastes better...those of you who are eating mushy "fresh" farmed chilean salmon need to barbeque a hunk of wild alaska red or king to truly understand what salmon should taste like....

Its easy to get too..just tell your fishmonger to get you wild salmon....

[Keith]

Wild,

That's absolutely true and it's not just a prejudice. The reason farm salmon have to be dyed is that the flesh is white - and it's white because it doesn't contain the oils that wild fish have. It's those oils that give wild salmon their color, flavor and firm texture.

Keith