We get barrels


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Dave Sample
December 11, 2004, 11:30 AM
Here is a barrel done by a very famous Colorado Gunsmith/Pistolsmith that is famous on Guntests Magazine and very well known around the Denver area. I guess he was smoking the good weed from Willie whe he did this one. I will let you be the judge of it. It was in a Caspian/Cold Cup that he did in payment for legal fees in a nasty divorce. I am installing an EZ Fit Kart barrel, a new ejector, and new slide stop and new grips and returning it so my clients Grandson will have a decent shooter. I have to re blue the lower end, also.

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/4974857/76210604.jpg

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/4974857/76210613.jpg

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/4974857/76210633.jpg

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/4974857/76210842.jpg

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Dave Sample
December 11, 2004, 11:33 AM
here is what it used to be before it was butchered.

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/4974857/76210624.jpg

HSMITH
December 11, 2004, 12:50 PM
Wow. I don't know that I have ever seen one that bad even from 'Kitchen Table Tom's Gun Works'. My first misguided attempt at making a functional 1911 from abox of parts looks like a masterpiece from the finest maker compared to that hunk of crap.

Ya 'spose he was bent at what the lawyer charged and did this as payment in kind? Sort of a 'get what you pay for' thing? I just can't imagine that someone would do something like this on accident....

perry1963
December 11, 2004, 02:20 PM
The divorce settelment must not have went his way and he's taking it out on the lawyer.

Dave Sample
December 12, 2004, 02:11 PM
I really can't believe it myself and asked over and over if some one else had touched the gun. The answer was a Big NO. He is a very talented man and I feel bad for him.

stans
December 13, 2004, 06:10 AM
Well, that' one way to get lock up with no vertical movement. Not really the right way, but it is a way. I have contemplated attempting such a thing, but I have always wondered how smoothly it would cycle and how durable the slide stop pin would be. Ok Dave, you have actually seen and handled one done like this, how smoothly did it cycle and what kind of accuracy did it exhibit? I mean, why should I butcher a barrel and slide stop not knowing the outcome when someone else has already done it?

Tinkerer
December 13, 2004, 02:53 PM
Anyone know why I can't see Dave's pictures, but I can see some of the pictures posted in other threads? All I get is the red X. :confused:

MoNsTeR
December 13, 2004, 03:46 PM
...a very famous Colorado Gunsmith/Pistolsmith that is famous on Guntests Magazine and very well known around the Denver area...
:confused:
I respectfully suggest there ain't no such beast. I'd love to hear who that supposedly is.

Bill Z
December 13, 2004, 04:24 PM
I respectfully suggest there ain't no such beast. I'd love to hear who that supposedly is.

Come out and say what you mean, don't beat around the bush sport. Oh, that might violate forum rules, just like the one that says we don't bring up names of people that cannot defend themselves here.

You may need to look up the meaning of respect, I think it means something totally different than what you think it means.

Now, you want to talk about crazy things that 'famous' smiths do to barrels as a crutch to their lack of being able to fit one? What about staking in pins in the lugs to give a tighter lock up at the top of the slide. Wanna guess who does that? Could be two answers that I know of.

Jammer Six
December 13, 2004, 07:57 PM
Oh, that might violate forum rules, just like the one that says we don't bring up names of people that cannot defend themselves here.
No such rule, Bill.

While it may seem to some that comments about someone's work are an attack on that person, telling the absolute, unvarnished truth about someone's work cannot, by definition, be an attack. The truth is the truth.

There is no rule that I see that says anything about whether or not a person can "defend themselves" here.

Perhaps you would be so good as to point it out to me?

What about staking in pins in the lugs to give a tighter lock up at the top of the slide. Wanna guess who does that? Could be two answers that I know of.

Dave Sample?

Isn't this his work we're talking about?

And finally, why are you so vehement about this issue, Bill?

Do you have some other dog in this fight?

Defending someone who doesn't rate it isn't respect, Bill, it's foolishness.

Thanks, Bill!

Bill Z
December 14, 2004, 09:28 AM
Actually no, Dave wouldn't do that to a barrel, niether would I, nor would either one of us file a slidestop to fit a barrel, that's foolishness.

How do you respectfully call someone a liar Jammer? Splain that one to me. You wouldn't call that a personal attack? Also, I don't see where Dave was tring to defend the man, he just didn't reveal him.

Also, one thing that may not be present in your industry is something that's called professional courtesy in most, especially this one. It would be one thing for a customer to throw the smith under the bus, but not one of his peers. It's this reason that many of us won't work behind a local smith or behind our friends without talking to them first. It's also why many of us are selective of who we do work for, whether we admit it or not in public.

MoNsTeR
December 14, 2004, 11:22 AM
I apologize for being too cryptic. I was simply asserting that in my experience (lifelong Denverite until 5 months ago) there simple are no "famous Colorado gunsmiths" that are "well known in the Denver area," at least none that are any good.

C.T. Brian is famous, and good, but not well known in town.
The guys at Gunsmoke are well known... as hacks.
Bart at Gunworks is good, but not well known.
Steve Moore is good, but unknown outside the IPSC clubs.
et cetera.

pax
December 14, 2004, 11:39 AM
I rarely wander into this forum, and don't have a dog in this fight -- but Dave Sample, it seems to me that now you've posted it at all, it is terribly unfair to all the other gunsmiths in Denver not to post the guy's name.

Also seems there's a lot of heat and not a lot of light on this thread. What's the deal with that?

pax

Zak Smith
December 14, 2004, 12:36 PM
A few notes:

1. I've lived near Denver and been an active shooter for the last 5 years. I have no idea who he's talking about, just like MoNsTeR.

2. CTBrian is in Grand Junction, which is hundreds of miles from Denver.

3. That pistol was butchered.

Skofnung
December 14, 2004, 03:02 PM
Maybe the Lawyer did it and he is ashamed of his work... So, he blames it on a Denver gunsmith. Yes? No? Maybe So? Just a thought...

Bill Z
December 14, 2004, 03:13 PM
Well, I will assure you, it isn't CT Brian, he's not even in Denver. Honestly, I think the fellow is now mostely retired, so I wouldn't worry about it. Most people missed the point of the thread, it was the barrel, not the 'smith, the barrel fellows. That's what the post was about.

Stans was the thinking man in this one, and was right. The thought was there, but that would make the pistol function in a 'jerky' manner, and there is no way to get a consistant lock-up. You can see that there isn't an even wear pattern, in fact, you should notice thee isn't any since the pistol functioned so poorly it wasn't shot.

Now, 'wear' might not be the best word to use, but what you really want to seemon the slidestop is where the feet cam up on it to produse even marks on both. If one side is heavier than the other it's a quick visual check that the barrel isn't cycling evenly and that there is a problem. There are other indicators to look for also on the slidestop, it can tell you a lot about the barrel if you let it.

1911Tuner
December 14, 2004, 03:40 PM
Thanks pax...I've been busy as a cross-eyed tomcat at a rat killin' and just saw this one.

Boys...Play nice!

Jammer...I've seen this flat thing done to slidestops a time or two myself. I just shook my head in disbelief. These things come from supposedly respectable and knowledgeable people...God only knows where they learned it.

While warning the readers of an incompetent smith wouldn't be considered
as foul play...you can draw a lotta heat by telling the truth. Not long ago I
did a rant/expose' on a company repair shop...without calling names of the people who did the butcherrrrrr...the repairs on the gun. I got lambasted
by a friend of the bunch and figured that I may even hear from somebody's lawyer over it...so I made it go away. It appears that telling the truth
has become as unacceptable as pledging allegiance to the flag or saying grave over a burger in public. Wotta world... :rolleyes:

Now then...Back on topic please! Let us not take the low road.

Cheers!

Zak Smith
December 14, 2004, 03:46 PM
you can draw a lotta heat by telling the truth.
That's misrepresenting the comments in this thread.

Jammer Six
December 14, 2004, 04:05 PM
How do you respectfully call someone a liar Jammer? Splain that one to me. You wouldn't call that a personal attack?
I don't think Monster called anyone a liar, Bill. I think he simply disagreed about the presence of a good pistolsmith in Denver.

Perhaps less coffee would help?

Your concience IS clean, isn't it?

'Tuner, are you saying that that damage was done on purpose? :what:

With what, a file? :eek:

Oh, my god...

I thought it was the barrel hitting the link- shows how much I know.

Why did they do it? What was wrong, and why did they think that would fix it?

Enquiring Minds Want To Know! :cool:

Bill Z
December 14, 2004, 04:24 PM
I've certainly got a clear conscience Lyle, so worry not about that. You obviously missed the entire point of the post, and still don't get it.

It's been explained a couple of times about the relationship of the slidestop and the barrel, don't know how to make it any clearer, it's certainly not rocket science.

Yes, it was done by filing or grinding on the slidestop to adust the barrel instead of cutting the lugs properly in the fisrt place. There are two barrel feet and it is imprtant that the barrel be fitted to the slide properly, held straight and level and the feet cut properly to ride the slidestop evenly. That's the basic of the basics. Some people tried to re-invent the wheel. This is one of those failed attempts or weak excuses of an mprovement. It just looks like an accident, more like a train wreck, but yes, it was done on purpose.

Jammer Six
December 14, 2004, 04:34 PM
It's been explained a couple of times about the relationship of the slidestop and the barrel, don't know how to make it any clearer, it's certainly not rocket science .
I agree, it's not rocket science.

However, reviewing the thread, I'm sorry, but I don't see any explanation of the damage in the pictures, so I'm at a loss as to where the "...couple of times..." is.

Could you point them out to me?

Yes, it was done by filing or grinding on the slidestop to adust the barrel instead of cutting the lugs properly in the fisrt place. There are two barrel feet and it is imprtant that the barrel be fitted to the slide properly, held straight and level and the feet cut properly to ride the slidestop evenly. That's the basic of the basics. Some people tried to re-invent the wheel. This is one of those failed attempts or weak excuses of an mprovement. It just looks like an accident, more like a train wreck, but yes, it was done on purpose.
What on earth are they trying to accomplish with this?

Doesn't this LOWER the barrel in the slide? Why would someone want it lower?

1911Tuner
December 14, 2004, 04:58 PM
Jammer asked:

Doesn't this LOWER the barrel in the slide? Why would someone want it lower?
_________________

It's done like that whenever a hard-fit barrel with an oversized lug is used, and the "smith" doesn't have a lug cutter to correctly fit the lug...or he doesn't have the skill or the patience to fit it by hand. He files away a little at a time until the sidestop pin will cam the barrel up into vertical lock. it does work, but as Bill observed...it's gonna be a bumpy ride.

Now, I believe in expedient field repairs or goin' a few thousandths out of the window when necessary...but that little trick is off the scale.

Cheers!

Tuner

stans
December 15, 2004, 06:15 AM
Stans was the thinking man in this one, and was right.

This is truely the end of days, not only was I told I was right, but now I am told that I am a thinking man?!!!!! :what: Live large because the end must be near! :scrutiny:

1911Tuner
December 15, 2004, 11:03 AM
nawwwww stans. All this time I been tellin' ya you was good...Ain't I been tellin' ya you was good?

You just gotta start gettin' up a mite earlier is all... :neener:

Peter M. Eick
December 15, 2004, 09:24 PM
Even an "observer" like me can tell that was poorly done.

I guess I have to respect your decision not to tell us who all did it. If I can see it is a serious problem then I bet any reasonably informed person would have asked the "unnamed smith" to do it right.

Interesting to see it though. Nice pictures!

1911Tuner
December 16, 2004, 07:00 AM
Hi Peter,

That method of obtaining vertical lockup is an emergency measure...an
"Expedient Field Repair" that I've only seen a few times...and only once outside of a war zone. It's done whenever a damaged barrel must be replaced
when time or circumstances don't allow proper fitting, and the gun has to be operational...and is to be turned in to the unit armorer for repair as early as possible.

I've never seen one with the extent of material removal on the pin and lower lug as this one, though. Even with minimal material removal, the strength and
integrity of the pin is severely compromised, and failure would likely occur
within 2 hundred rounds fired...and it will happen even earlier if the slide is allowed to go to battery at full speed on an empty gun.

I can't imagine why any halfway experienced kitchen-table tinkerer would do this...much less a knowledgeable custom pistol smith...especially with the
cost and availability of lug-cutting tools that anyone can order from Brownells.
Rank amateurs who order match barrels without understanding what's involved
in installing them, yes...but not an experienced builder. The man must have taken leave of his senses...probably due to dealing with the public. :D

Bill Z
December 16, 2004, 08:35 AM
John, there's that and worse out there, people trying to re-invent the wheel instaed of making it nice and round. And talk about someone leaving their senses, I know this one guy and he......................................well, that wouldn't be nice, now would it. :evil:

1911Tuner
December 16, 2004, 08:43 AM
heh heh heh heh...Yeppers.

I've seen some truly amazing things come from some supposedly knowledgeable people. I have to believe that the work load becomes such that some of it is turned over to the shop apprentice, and isn't checked out before being shipped. Look at the work that's come out of one of the formerly premier shops recently. (Think about it and it'll come to ya.)
Since the old salt with the handlebars who used to run it with an iron hand got too old to stay with it...things have fallen off badly. Sad. Are there no
up and coming craftsmen any more...or has the age of instant gratification and video games killed'em all off?

Bill Z
December 16, 2004, 03:19 PM
Are there no
up and coming craftsmen any more...or has the age of instant gratification and video games killed'em all off?

There are a great deal of great crafstman out there, start with the founding members of LTW and add from there. As far as semi production/custom, I think Ed Brown is still doing some innovative things, and you don't see very many of his pistols out on the market used or hear many complaints about them. Him and his son's still sit down at the benches and build 'em.

Now, your not going to find that kind of quality in a three or four or even five hundred dollar gun, I don't care what name is on the side of it. Labor and skill cost money as well as the tools you have to use and replace. There's nothing wrong with something like a Springfield or a Nork, but dropping in a trigger job and changing sights is a far cry from making a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

1911Tuner
December 16, 2004, 03:59 PM
Bill Z said:

>>dropping in a trigger job and changing sights is a far cry from making a silk purse out of a sow's ear<<
_____________________

Thassa fact, Jack!

Speakin' of which...I think I'm fixin' to do one on a Caspian slide and frame
in the next few months. This may be a chance to try out one of those Kart
barrels like ya'll use....which means that I'm gonna hafta go chase my dang reamer down, if it ain't wore slap out by now....or just order a new one. :rolleyes: :D

Wichaka
December 16, 2004, 04:32 PM
Dave,

how many rounds were put thru the gun after the pin was ground down?

Would like to hear what the owner has to say about the guns performance........or lack of it.....and why he took it to unsaid 'smith in the first place.

Bill Z
December 16, 2004, 04:33 PM
We'll do that one on the house John, priority mail is cheaper than buying a reamer, kind of like sight staking tools, to get one that's worth a crap it's not cost effective unless you are making money with it.

1911Tuner
December 16, 2004, 05:14 PM
Thanks for the offer Bill...but I need a finishing reamer anyway. I see so many chambers these days that are on the tight/short side that it'll be worth the cost to keep from havin' to drive 20 miles to borrow one...and then take it back. Wish the guy who borrowed mine would bring it back, even if it's used up. I'd kinda like to see it again after all these years... :rolleyes:

Bill Z
December 17, 2004, 09:29 AM
Great, now I know where I'll be able to borrow another one when I need it. :D

1911Tuner
December 17, 2004, 10:09 AM
Bill said:

Great, now I know where I'll be able to borrow another one when I need it.
___________________

Yep...But the catch is that ya gotta come and get it...and take this dang
turbocharged Lab/Boxer pup back with ya. Picked him up abandoned and starvin' last summer. He wasn't s'posed ta be here this long. :banghead:
Hell...I'll GIVE ya the reamer if you'll take him!

Wichaka
December 18, 2004, 01:21 PM
Good morning Dave.

How are you?

Dave?

Are you there Dave?


- Hal 2000

Dean Taylor
December 18, 2004, 10:57 PM
I have been at Dave's for the week. We are getting ready for the Shot Show. He is too busy to post. I have seen the barrel and lugs, the slide stop and the lower end with the "smith's" signature. I can not believe he signed it. It barfed from the beginning.

Dean
deanrtaylor@att.net

1911Tuner
December 18, 2004, 11:02 PM
Dean said:

I can not believe he signed it. It barfed from the beginning.
*****************

Un-freakin' believeable! If the guy can't do any better than that, he oughta seriously consider a Springfield drop-in service barrel next time. :rolleyes:

Stinkyshoe
December 19, 2004, 03:09 AM
Tuner said "Sad. Are there no
up and coming craftsmen any more...or has the age of instant gratification and video games killed'em all off?"

Gosh Tuner, your right. Most everybody at college likes to play Halo 2 and drink excessively. But they look at me for being a nut ball for enjoying shootin and tinkering with my 1911s. Most kids my age think if you enjoy guns you are some sociopathic freak with a few Fruedian issues. I sure wish I could go into pistolsmithing(especially working on the 1911!!!), but I fear that it would be a very difficult business proposition. Got any suggestions? If nothing else I'd like to be a red-neck pistol wrench like yourself someday(if I am already not there ;)

I figured out my accuracy issues with the Kart Ez-fit that I had asked you about. One lug leg was contacting the ss pin just a bit harder than the other side. This explains why I had to move the sight over to get it to pattern somewhere in the middle. I gave it the blue marker treatment, and gingerly took off just a bit. Now she groups real nice with UMC hardball...

1911Tuner
December 19, 2004, 06:36 AM
Stinky said:

Gosh Tuner....Halo....Drink...Nutball....Business proposition...
_________________

Howdy Stinky,

How is the New Age crowd at takin' a joke? :cool:

Pistolsmithin' as a business? Best advice that I can give ya is not to quit your day job. :D Most of the ones that I know(personally) started it as a
hobby/sideline and added to their equipment as they went.

I more or less got roped into it when a friend who was a licensed dealer showed me a dozen or so pistols that disgruntled customers had brought back after they choked(the guns...not the customers) and the only local guy wanted to gouge him on the repairs so bad that it was more cost-effective to just eat the loss on the guns than pay to have'em fixed. Simple stuff.(It usually is) I fixed three of'em in about an hour, and he told me that I had a job whether I wanted one or not. :p

Redneck? Well...That's somethin' you're kinda born to. It's like bein' 6 feet tall. Either you is...or you isn't, and there ain't much you can do about it either way. :neener:

Congrats on nailin' that barrel problem. It's usually somethin' simple...and it's the little things that getcha. :cool:

c_yeager
December 19, 2004, 06:51 AM
Most people missed the point of the thread, it was the barrel, not the 'smith, the barrel fellows. That's what the post was about.

This is the post that started the thread. The portion in ORANGE concerns the "smith" and the portion in BLUE concerns the barrel itself. The black is reserved for comments concerning neither the barrel itself or the smith who botched it.
Here is a barrel done by a very famous Colorado Gunsmith/Pistolsmith that is famous on Guntests Magazine and very well known around the Denver area. I guess he was smoking the good weed from Willie whe he did this one. I will let you be the judge of it. It was in a Caspian/Cold Cup that he did in payment for legal fees in a nasty divorce. I am installing an EZ Fit Kart barrel, a new ejector, and new slide stop and new grips and returning it so my clients Grandson will have a decent shooter. I have to re blue the lower end, also.

Perhaps, if the intent of this thread was meant to be "The Barrel" it would have been better if the preponderance of the post wasnt concerning the one who made it. I for one am not suprised that the majority of the persons responding to this thread have focused on the maker.

1911Tuner
December 19, 2004, 07:16 AM
Howdy c_yeager,

Yep...The barrel didn't get that way by itself. Somebody had to make it that way...and if we just had a name, we'd know what smith in Colorado to avoid.
Instead, all we can do is avoid ALL Colorado smiths. I ask you...Is it fair that several dozen...or several hundred competent smiths in the Rocky Mountain State lose business because of one Dremel jockey? Nay, I say! Let his name be revealed in PMs to all concerned Colorado residents!

Bill Z
December 19, 2004, 10:27 AM
Nay, I say! Let his name be revealed in PMs to all concerned Colorado residents!

Irish coffee this morning John? The guys retired, no one needs to fret him anymore.

Yeager said----
Perhaps, if the intent of this thread was meant to be "The Barrel" it would have been better if the preponderance of the post wasnt concerning the one who made it.

If we just ignore the title, and the preponderance of the relevent content and the subject of the photo's, you might have a point.


HEY LOOK EVERYONE, I was able to use the word preponderance in a sentance. Now, if I can just work in the word propensity somewhere every now and then I would sound edjumocated. :D

macavada
December 19, 2004, 10:29 AM
I subscribe to Gun Tests. I guess I'll have to go over a few of my old issues to figger it out. However, I don't remember there ever being much reference to any GT smith. I must not have been paying attention.

HEY LOOK EVERYONE, I was able to use the word preponderance in a sentance.

Now just learn how to spell sentence. :neener:

1911Tuner
December 19, 2004, 10:33 AM
Bill asked:

>Irish coffee this morning John?<
***************

*hic* whazzat ya say?

OOOOOHHHHHH...Show me the way to go home! I'm tired an' I wanna go to bed! 'Had a li'l drink about an hour ago and it went right to my head... :cool:

*hic*

Bill Z
December 19, 2004, 10:52 AM
Now just learn how to spell sentence.

Just not wanting to flaunt my edjumocation this early in the morning, people might think I'm stuck up. ;)

Wichaka
December 19, 2004, 02:25 PM
I think its poor to speak of a 'smith that does bad work........retired or not, and not let folks know who to avoid.

I agree with Tuner, let it go thru PM's or emails.........

Folks can still read about this guy in back issues and take on his way of thinkin' about things. And we all hear about people coming out of retirement.............so there goes another 'lame' excuse.

Folks on this thread are calling Dave out on this one. Either cough up the name, or don't make another post that hints to another 'smith doing bad work.

With all due respect Bill Z, this thread is pointed to Dave, he started it......he can finish it.........he can speak for himself.

There are some very simple things I want to know from Dave.........other than the 'smiths name...........how many rounds were put thru the gun after the pin was ground down? How long ago was this done?

gamachinist
December 19, 2004, 03:33 PM
I'm a bit surprised that no one else has brought it up,but:

One of the first things I learned about business is that it is really a bad idea to run down the competition.Talk yourself up all you want,but don't do it at someone elses expense.I keep examples of other shops poor work around the shop,but I won't id the perp to anyone,just that it wasn't done to my liking.

In 20 years,there is only one shop that I would ask people not to take their work to,because I knew it wasn't going to come out right,and they would be left holding the bag.
I disagree with a lot of my fellow automotive machinists about what is needed and how it should be done sometimes,but I keep my mouth shut when talking to a customer.When a prematurely failed part comes to me,I'll tell them what went wrong ifI know,and it usually involves someone getting a low price on the job by the shop that worked on it before I got it.

I wish Dave hadn't id'ed the area the smith worked in,and just said look at this poor example.But I might have made the same error.I know better now.

Dave probably has a good reason for not rattin' him out,and I respect that,based on my personal experiences.If you dis your competitors,sooner or later it will bite you on the butt,I promise (I've seen it happen).
It is a bad deal to publicly hold someone up for examination who hasn't been offered the chance to tell his side of the story,isn't it?Sort of like the courts in some parts of the world,where you don't get a chance to defend yourself,only the state gets to convict you with out any defense?
Maybe the idea to settle this by IM is a good one,snce I am not in Colorado,and don't ever expect to get a gun from that area in my hands as a repair or a purchase.That way anyone who might fall victim to this type of work could be forewarned.

But one thing to always keep in mind,that gun wasn't sealed when it left the gunsmiths shop.ANYONE could have botched it up since then,and I have had more people lie to me about what happened and how it happened than will tell the truth about it up front.
Sometimes it is because they are embarassed about admitting they botched it up,lots of times,it is so I will quote a lower price not knowing what I'm getting myself in for(I have learned how to avoid that trap).

Anyone who is in business for themselves doing anything service related,whether it be gun,car,heating/air,boat or anything else repair has been rundown by a customer that didn't want his friends to know he cheaped out or messed it up himself.This happens to me all the time,no matter how hard I try to prevent it.I even had one local garage tell his customers I was doing all his work,when I had only done one small job for him the whole time he was there.
I won't do a half way job on anything,for this reason.I can't stop people from blaming me for things I didn't do,butI can prevent it from happening because I didn't do all that was needed.

Sorry for the long winded rant,but I feel like this has been beaten to death,and we need to take "The High Road" and go onto more important things,like what was done to fix that poor, fouled up gun.
Regards,(as I look for my firesuit),Robert.

1911Tuner
December 19, 2004, 03:48 PM
I have to agree with gamachinist. If Dave doesn't want to reveal the name publicly, he must have his own reasons. I've done the same for a forum member who wanted to keep it on the QT...and I'll close the thread before it goes to the Helen Gone Hotel.

But...just for the record...The mod on the slidestop pin is one that's acceptable ONLY if the barrel fitter doesn't have time to do it correctly,
and ONLY as an expedient means to make the gun functional until the barrel can be correctly fitted.

If anyone can come up with a viable reason to reopen the thread, I'm open to suggestions.

Cheers all!

1911Tuner
December 25, 2004, 05:23 AM
Reopened and BTT...I'm kinda curious as to how much use the gun has seen with the pin in that condition...

Cap'n?

Dave Sample
December 25, 2004, 03:27 PM
Let us clear this up now. The owner has sworn that no one else has worked on the gun. He is my best friend of 38+ years and he believes that it was that way when he got it back from the Smith. I have grave doubts about it and would never disclose the guy that did it. He was known to do good work for some and crap work for others, but I have never figured out who was who in that time when he was a master smith. It hurts me bad to think the guy would turn something like this loose.
The gun has had thousands of round through it and was a Jam-O Matic from day one. It was a Gold Cup that had a Caspian Lower with the rails beat down and tightened. The checkering was hand done and excellent. 20 LPI on the front strap and the front of the trigger guard. Not as good as mine, but very nice. I can't show you that because he has his name stamped on the frame.
I am installing a Kart NM Barrel and bushing, a new ejector, and a new slide stop in it and re finishing the lower Flat Black. The top end is my Electroless Nickle Finish that I use to do down in Raton, NM years ago. It still looks like the day I plated it.
I do not denigrate other people in my business, no matter how bad their work is. I have mentioned several times that I shut this shop down because I became the "Court of Last Resort" around here and all I was doing was going into 1911's trying to patch up terrible work. I never get to see the good work. Just the screw ups. This man is retired now and it does not matter who he is . There are many fine smiths in CO and I do not know of anyone there I would not use. Let us put this one back in the storage locker where it belongs, as I regret that you didn't understand what this was all about. I wanted you to see a welded up P.O.S. barrel fitted badly and who did it is not a factor. Sometimes when you weld stuff, it is so hard you can't cut it with hand tools. This may have been the case here. I do not apply heat to 1911's for any reason. I can buy a new barrel cheaper than I can have someone weld up a mediocre one. Heat changes the metal, and it rarely improves the gun. End of Story.

Peter M. Eick
December 26, 2004, 11:30 AM
Ok, I certainly understand your feelings about who is doing this work.

On a different accord would you and Tuner consider posting your contact information and a list of Smiths YOU would consider using?

I am just looking for references. You guys seem extremely stand up type of foks and if I were to need smithing I would like to talk to you all or someone you might trust.

I recognize this might be perceived by some to be almost advertising or endoresment, and if so lets drop it.

Thanks

Dave Sample
December 26, 2004, 04:22 PM
I am not familiar with the Colorado Pistolsmiths any more because I left there 12 years ago December 2nd, 1992. I know too much about a lot of them to say anything good do I will just tell you two men I can recommend. One is Chuck Rogers, the other is Don Williams. Rogers Precision and the Action Works. I had dinner with Don and his family yesterday and I have know Chuck for years. I know you will be pleased with their work. The Club 100 or the other Union will not be discussed by your truly. www.louderthanwords.us has a gathering of fine smiths that I do not know, but have heard many good things about. Also Ted Yost is a great pistol, rifle, and shotgun Smith down in Phoenix and I would feel very good about using him for any personal work on long guns that I need done. He also does the best re-finishing around here. There are many people who take hand guns to gunsmiths. I would take hand guns to pistolsmiths. Much of the bad work you hear about is done by people who went to Gunsmith School and are trying to be all things to all people. They are great guys, but not like us. We are the brain surgeons of our business. All I do is 1873 Type action tune ups now and I am the best at it there is. It is not arrogance if you can deliver the goods, and I can. I am respected everywhere in our business except here, and that does not bother me at all. I consider the source.
All of the good guys have very long waiting lists. I never did. I picked and chose who I worked for and still do. My turn around time on 1873 tune ups is 7-14 days. I schedule them in so I can deliver them quickly and keep the parts I need in stock. I really have not done very many since 9/11 and that suits me fine. I am an O.F. now and lazy. I have yet to have an unhappy customer in the 1873 field, and only a few jerks in the 1911 field that I knew I should have passed on and didn't trust my instincts. You can't win them all.

1911Tuner
December 26, 2004, 06:15 PM
Quote:


>The gun has had thousands of round through it and was a Jam-O Matic from day one.<


:scrutiny: mm hmm. mm hmm. :scrutiny: :scrutiny:

Wichaka
December 26, 2004, 09:25 PM
Dave said this on THR;
I do not denigrate other people in my business, no matter how bad their work is.

Dave also said, on his own website;
Dick does good work, but he also a great BS'r. He blew somke up everyones butt about Larry Vickers and Larry will never build a 1911 as good as my worse student. He has done a real good job of his Dawg and Pony Show for years and has always had that famous waiting list for years at a time. I owe him a great debt of gratitude because he was one of the reasons I started building 1911's myself. I scheduled them in and delivered them in 90 days. He is still tweakin factory guns as far as I know. He is like the Tuner. he has one year of experience 25 years in a row. Whereas I have over 20 years of experience.

Which is it Dave..........are you mis-quoting yourself? On your own web site and here?! Now you're trashing one of the mods. behind his back..........

Send us a better pic of that slide stop pin please.

Dave said;
The gun has had thousands of round through it........

1911Tuner
December 27, 2004, 06:11 AM
Awwww...I already knew 'bout that. That's why I said."That would be 40 years..." :neener:


Back to the topic! The question of how much use the gun had seen has been answered. Anybody else have any questions?

Dave Sample
December 27, 2004, 02:32 PM
Since I own my own forum, I can say anything I want there without any posts like you and Old Fuff do . I meant every word of it and thanks for dragging it over here. I was hoping you would! We do not have any so called moderators or rules except for one. If you screw up, you are gone! You are welcome to read anything I post over there. It's open to one and all.Now you guys go smoke some more funny stuff. I am too busy now to duke it out with imaginary people who are afraid to say who they are.

1911Tuner
December 27, 2004, 02:48 PM
Dave said:

I meant every word of it and thanks for dragging it over here. I was hoping you would!
***********

Yeah, Cap'n...I figgered that was why you posted the link over here. And that's why I called attention to the fact that the method that you use for determining headspace is WRONG...and potentially DANGEROUS...if the reader
tosses a gun together from parts tables at a gun show...uses the wrong method for determining that the gun is safe to fire...and blows half his hand off because of it.

I don't give a fat rat's fanny what you post on your forum. I do care what you post...or link to on THIS forum if that post or link can result in a damaged gun or injury to the shooter who reads it and takes it as gospel. If we don't have a legal responsibility, we at least have a moral responsibility.

Thank you for your support.

ken grant
December 27, 2004, 06:38 PM
Where is Dave's forum? I would like to surf it. :evil:

Jammer Six
December 27, 2004, 06:41 PM
Since I own my own forum, I can say anything I want there without any posts like you and Old Fuff do . I meant every word of it and thanks for dragging it over here. I was hoping you would! We do not have any so called moderators or rules except for one. If you screw up, you are gone! You are welcome to read anything I post over there. It's open to one and all.Now you guys go smoke some more funny stuff. I am too busy now to duke it out with imaginary people who are afraid to say who they are.
Because I'm a newbie, and just trying to figure out what's going on, I have a question.

Does who the moderators are and how many of them there are make a difference?

Is it okay to say one thing when there's no moderator, and something different when there is?

I'll get used to the rules on the internet one of these days...

Thanks, Dave!

Dave Sample
December 27, 2004, 10:15 PM
Thanks, Jammer. I have never figured it out, either, so I can't help you. If you would feel better about my methods, buy some Go and No-Go headspace gauges, mail them to me, and I will throw them in a drawer in the Shop somewhere. I didn't get any xmas presents from any of you so it might make up for that. All I get here is a load of crap by ignorant amateurs so it would be a pleasant change!

Jammer Six
December 27, 2004, 11:21 PM
Thanks, Jammer. I have never figured it out, either, so I can't help you. If you would feel better about my methods, buy some Go and No-Go headspace gauges, mail them to me, and I will throw them in a drawer in the Shop somewhere. I didn't get any xmas presents from any of you so it might make up for that. All I get here is a load of crap by ignorant amateurs so it would be a pleasant change!

Dave, what part of all this is crap, and who are the ignorant amateurs?

I'm just a newbie, and I'm trying to figure out what the best way to check my chamber is, so I'm looking for help from anyplace I can get it.

What's wrong with go/no-go gauges, and why don't you use them?

Thanks, Dave!

neolithic hunter
December 28, 2004, 05:26 PM
well guy's i don't like to talk about somebody that has done a job for me. unless the job is sub-standard i know gunsmiths work hard at there trade. i have a problem with smiths that know there work is sub-standard and don't have the guts to correct it. i worked with a smith here in houston for 2 years trying to get him to fess up to doing a bad job. he re-barreled a 98 mauser for me with a pac-nor match barrel. the rifle would not shoot a 5" group. i went over the gun with a fine toothed comb and was left with the decision that it was the barrel. took it back to the smith. they stated that they cleaned it and shot it and nothing else, supplied me with a target with a nice 1" 3 rnd group. paid him the 80 bucks he said it cost shook my head and took it home along with the load that they said they used to shoot the group with. to make a long story shorter i loaded some of the loads i was supplied with. well when i went to the range i foung that the rounds would not chamber. toke thre rifle back home tore the ammo down resized the cases till the sizing die was in contact with the shell holder. the cases are crush fit in the chamber. they will chamber but you have to use force on the bolt handle. went back to the range with the now new ammo. shot 5, 2 1/2" groups. well to say the least i'm not happy called the smith and he told me that according to his records that they did nothing to the rifle except clean it and shoot it and there is nothing wrong with the rifle????? i guess he thinks i'm stupid or something.. if you want his name e-mail me at pgrc@sbcglobal.net and i will be glad to give you his name. he has a business and builds ultra-lite rifles that look nice. :banghead: :cuss:

HSMITH
December 29, 2004, 12:56 AM
HMMMMMM, anyone care to count the piddlin' matches going on here in this thread alone. Surprising, even more so some of the participants.

1911Tuner
December 29, 2004, 05:30 AM
Agreed HSMith.

Back to topic. Anybody have any more questions about the barrel or the slidestop pin?

BluesBear
December 29, 2004, 10:35 AM
It's the mood swings that some seem to suffer that amaze me.

People who are nice on day and then name calling everyone else the next.

Did ya ever notice that those who keep threatening to leave seldom do?

Bill Z
December 29, 2004, 04:48 PM
Kinda like reopening closed threads when the mood suits you, huh? I think it was a fishing expedition anyways, and I must admit it worked. It does however speak to the true character of more than one person here, doesn't it?

1911Tuner
December 29, 2004, 05:43 PM
Bill...I don't quite know what to make of that implication. I closed the thread to let the fire die down a little...and reopened it because a few questions came up about how many times the gun had been fired in that condition,
and I didn't know. Maybe a few of the people who asked me will step up to the plate and try again...or maybe not. One thing for sure...if it starts to head for a flame war, I'll close it again before I'll see anybody banned over it.

Regards...

BluesBear
December 30, 2004, 05:01 AM
I'll admit I had mixed emotions when I saw the thread closed.
I was getting tired of the childish actions of some people and I really don't give two hoots of a holler who the BOZO was who butchered a formerly fine piece of Browningness since I am very very selective as to who I have work on my weaponry. So when it degraded into diaper dipping I was relieved to have it shut down.

But

I do think that the thread served a usefull purpose on educating people what NOT to do. I can imagine someone who doesn't know any better buting a POS like this and upon seeing the "difference" (dang it's hard being polite when describing the action of a DU$&FU@#) might ask and be told by the MORON who did the work or the SHYSTER trying to palm it off that it was some sort of fancy top secret super fix to make the gun work much better than formerly know to anyone outside of the secret handshake set.

People need to know that if they see this, that this gun has been SCREWED UP BEYOND REPAIR* by an IDIOT.

Therefore I was glad to see the thread reopened so than intelligent people could further discuss the shoulds and should nots.

And in case you still can't tell where I'm coming from let me just say that if you don't like the way the moderators run things around here, then just go

somewhere else.



*(commonly known as FUBR and actually pronounced fubber**)



**(if you think it's foobar then you probably don't know how to pronounce chaps either)

1911Tuner
December 30, 2004, 05:38 AM
Easy there Bear! :D It ain't worth havin' a stroke over.

While it's generally accepted that a moderator may open, close, edit or delete a post or even a whole thread at his or her discretion...I've tried to maintain a
middle of the road approach on what is known as "The Hammer". If a member feels that I've been too hasty, I'm open to a protest or an appeal as long as it's done in a civil manner.

In this instance, I closed the thread because it was headed in the wrong direction. I reopened it because a few points were made to me via PM
that probably warrant further investigation...Points that I agreed with, but
refrained from bringing up due to trying to keep the waters calm. If those questions aren't asked soon, we'll let the matter drop and move on. I
won't ask the questions.

Again...Just for what it's worth...I've seen that modification a few times as an emergency measure only...but never to the extent that this one was done.
The only reason/excuse for fitting a lug and pin in this manner is lack of time or equipment to do it correctly, and the gun has to be returned to service
until it can be turned in to an armorer.

Standin' by...

BluesBear
December 30, 2004, 09:39 AM
No stroke here Tuner, Hells Bells™, my heart is about the only part of me that still works right.

I was just calling a spade a spade. Now as to whether it's a shovel or a suite of cards, that remains to be seen.

I have seen several moderators reopen threads in my time here. Which is one of the great things about THR. You can actually talk to the Royalty and they'll listen. :D

R.H. Lee
January 1, 2005, 11:33 AM
I have a question. If the reason for filing the top of the pin flat is to allow an oversized barrel lug to cam upward on the pin and force the barrel into vertical lock, then why:

1) Does the flat appear to have fresh file marks with no sign of polishing?

2) If the front corner of the lower lug was riding up on the pin...why does the radius immediately behind the flat on the pin not show any sign of contact?

3) Looking at the center of the pin in the area that the link would have contacted when it unlocked the barrel, I can't see any contact, like the
barrel were locking on the link (after many thousands of rounds). :confused: So it looks like this barrel is neither locking on the lug nor the link, nor does it appear to be pivoting on, nor riding the link.

AAaacckkk! I don't get this and it hurts my head. :confused:

1911Tuner
January 1, 2005, 06:02 PM
Valid questions by Riley...Any more?

Wichaka
January 1, 2005, 09:46 PM
Questions..........but no answers.

Bill Z
January 1, 2005, 10:04 PM
http://www.fforestfields.co.uk/images/Fishing%202.jpg

Fishing, anyone?

macavada
January 1, 2005, 10:17 PM
:)

You can cut the tension with a knife around here. Can't we all just get along?

1911Tuner
January 1, 2005, 10:39 PM
macavada asked:

Can't we all just get along?
*******************

I think that's why nobody has asked the questions...and since no answers are in the offing...we can either close it or just let it fade away.

Standin' by...

Bill Z
January 1, 2005, 11:04 PM
No, really, it's in the 70's here, I want someone to take me fishing.

Great advice Macavada, I thought it was closed a while back but it kept jumping up.

Now, who's got a boat, this is the time of the year you need to fish below the dam and I don't have a boat.

1911Tuner
January 2, 2005, 04:07 PM
No more questions...Closed on request.

Cheers all!

Tuner

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