Can a FFL dealer refuse to ship a C&R gun to a C&R FFL holder?


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firestar
March 1, 2003, 11:25 PM
Hypothetical question (sort of). Can a regular Class 1 FFL dealer refuse to ship a C&R classified gun to you that you bought on a auction if you have a C&R FFL?

I bought a CZ-52 and was wondering if the seller can refuse to ship it to my home. Can he say that it must go to a class 1 FFL dealer?

Just curious.

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WonderNine
March 1, 2003, 11:34 PM
Hypothetical question (sort of). Can a regular Class 1 FFL dealer refuse to ship a C&R classified gun to you that you bought on a auction if you have a C&R FFL?

I bought a CZ-52 and was wondering if the seller can refuse to ship it to my home. Can he say that it must go to a class 1 FFL dealer?

Just curious.

Of course he can. However he would be a moron.

If he refused to ship directly to you I would leave negative feedback on the seller that you went through the trouble of getting a C&R FFL and that the seller is a snob and refuses to abide by the law and ship directly to you. I doubt he would do that though....or being selling C&R guns and not want to ship to any C&R's.

He's selling guns in auctions, he should know the laws.

Zundfolge
March 1, 2003, 11:35 PM
He's free to do whatever he wants, you can't force him to ship it to you.

Just because he's got an FFL doesn't mean he knows the law and many FFL holders are scared to death of the BATF (with good reason ... I wouldn't want my wife and son murdered by FBI sharpshooters either).

firestar
March 2, 2003, 12:49 AM
He hasn't refused yet but I am preparing myself for the worst. It is no big deal if he makes me go through my FFL. My FFL only charges me $5 but he lives about 30 minuits from me so it is more of a time thing.

I have seen sellers on gunbroker and auction arms charge a higher shipping fee to ship to a C&R than a regular FFL. Is there any reason for this? It can't cost them more to ship it to a C&R holder, can it?

WonderNine
March 2, 2003, 01:22 AM
I would not buy from the seller if he would not ship a C&R gun directly to me. I would cancel the deal right then and there and give him negative feedback. There is no reason for this ship to FFL only behavior and it's inexcusable.

DMK
March 2, 2003, 01:24 AM
Lew Horton does. He even flaunts it right on his ad. :rolleyes:

Blackhawk
March 2, 2003, 01:35 AM
Yes.

Yes.

Hkmp5sd
March 2, 2003, 09:24 AM
It can't cost them more to ship it to a C&R holder, can it?

It's just an excuse to get more money out of you. Since you are not a full-time, professional 01-FFL, doing transfers everyday, some dealers think you don't know as much about transfers as them. An easy mark for extra cash.

SteveA
March 2, 2003, 11:30 AM
He can refuse to ship to anyone he wants. Your 03 or your buddies 01 - makes no difference. He has that right.

Rule of thumb is ALWAYS - ask pertenent questions BEFORE you bid.

If you have an 03 and want to buy from an auction, be sure the seller will honor the 03 for that purchase and the gun is 03 eligible.

All that said, if the gun is an 03 eligible, you have an 03 and the seller refuses to honor your 03 - you can refuse to honor the auction bid. He/she will probably post a negative feedback - you can do the same. In this case - yours will probably be looked at as the most relevant.

firestar
March 2, 2003, 01:36 PM
Well, I just got the response from the seller and he is refuseing to ship the gun to me. He says "because of harrasment from the ATF, we can no longer ship to C&R". How did I know this was going to happen?

He also put in his ad that shipping was "actual shipping" and he sends me a e-mail that says "next day to that zip is $25.75 or air saver is $23.25". What? He wrote this earlier in his message: "PLEASE.WE SHIP UPS ON WED/THUR/FRI".

What is going on here? I was expecting this gun to be a deal but now it will cost me way more than if I had just ordered it from SOG!:banghead: I am really getting tired of these auction sites and the people that fool around with you.

What should I do now?

Hkmp5sd
March 2, 2003, 03:09 PM
If he refuses to accept your valid 03-FFL for a C&R transfer, tell him the sale is void. Provide feedback on the auction site that states he refuses to ship to C&Rs and how he handles shipping fees.

Might save the next guy some hassles.

Blackcloud6
March 2, 2003, 03:32 PM
I never tell them I have a C&R FFL just an FFL. Its BS that he is receiving "harassment" from the ATF for shipping to C&R holder. Don't pay him, void the sale and post a big negative for the jerk.

An C&R FFL is a leagl license just as valid as his dealer's FFL. Cripes!

Zundfolge
March 2, 2003, 04:08 PM
what Hkmp5sd and Blackcloud6 said.

sorry you had to deal with an idiot.


I swear sometimes that gun dealers are almost as big a problem as the BATF :banghead:


I would say before bidding always email seller and ask him ... if he doesn't ship to C&Rs then post negative feedback (if its possible to do so without buying)

firestar
March 2, 2003, 05:40 PM
I didn't even think to ask because he is an FFL dealer himself. If it was a private seller, I would deffinatly have asked first.

I e-mailed him this response:
"Hello,
I'm not sure I understand the "harassment" part. It is completely legal for you to ship this gun to me and it is completely legal for me to receive it. I can provide info taken directly from the ATF's web page and mailed documents.

It will cost me quite a bit more to have to go through a 01 FFL dealer. Perhaps I can answer any questions you may have on the legality of shipping C&R firearms and the use and intent of the C&R FFL."

What do you think? Is that making myself clear? If he still won't ship it, I guess I will just viod the sale. I hate to have to give neg feedback and I don't want to recieve any myself but I guess it is not my fault.

Zundfolge
March 2, 2003, 05:42 PM
If he still won't ship it, I guess I will just viod the sale.

Make sure you tell him that when you contact him. He might just decide not to be a dick if its going to cost him a sale.

firestar
March 2, 2003, 06:02 PM
Good point Zundfolge.

I have have a string of bad luck concerning guns latly. It almost makes you want to give up. It seems as if no one really wants to sell and no one really wants to buy anything anymore. I don't really sell guns much anymore, I just try to get the ones that I want to keep for a long time.

Zundfolge
March 2, 2003, 09:11 PM
Well if you give up on guns and don't want to sell the ones you've got you can just give all of them away.

You know where to find me :D

firestar
March 2, 2003, 09:15 PM
Haha! I meant give up on getting any new ones or selling the ones I don't want. I didn't mean give up on gun ownership! :D

SteyrAUG
March 2, 2003, 09:31 PM
While I have no idea why he would refuse to do so, a FFL is a private business and he is free to do as he likes.

tyme
March 2, 2003, 09:36 PM
While I have no idea why he would refuse to do so, a FFL is a private business and he is free to do as he likes.That may not be true... if he posted an item and you bid and won, and it's legal for him to transfer to you directly, failure to do so seems like it would be a breach of contract... unless he said beforehand that he'd only ship to certain types of people.

Zundfolge
March 2, 2003, 09:42 PM
if he posted an item and you bid and won, and it's legal for him to transfer to you directly, failure to do so seems like it would be a breach of contract

No, because he's not refusing to sell it to him, he's just refusing to ship it to him.

WonderNine
March 3, 2003, 12:13 AM
I e-mailed him this response:
"Hello,
I'm not sure I understand the "harassment" part. It is completely legal for you to ship this gun to me and it is completely legal for me to receive it. I can provide info taken directly from the ATF's web page and mailed documents.

It will cost me quite a bit more to have to go through a 01 FFL dealer. Perhaps I can answer any questions you may have on the legality of shipping C&R firearms and the use and intent of the C&R FFL."

What do you think? Is that making myself clear? If he still won't ship it, I guess I will just viod the sale. I hate to have to give neg feedback and I don't want to recieve any myself but I guess it is not my fault.

Good response. I look forward to hearing back from you what the seller had to say. My email probably would have been more hostile, as I wouldn't really want to get on the jerks good side anymore anyways. Ask him "What do you think I went through the trouble of getting the C&R FFL for, to wipe my *** with?"

Hehe.

In all the transactions I've done online, I believe I've only given one negative feedback and it was a total ignoramous on Ebay.

Remember that the only people that will look disaprovingly on the negative feedback he gives you will people that are like minded with him. You don't want to do business with those type of people anyways. And whether it's Auction ARms or Gunbroker, you can post a rebuttal of his comments beneath.

This is the only type of negative feedback I'd actually welcome. I like to expose people like the seller you're currently dealing (or not dealing) with.

SteyrAUG
March 3, 2003, 12:18 AM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
if he posted an item and you bid and won, and it's legal for him to transfer to you directly, failure to do so seems like it would be a breach of contract
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No, because he's not refusing to sell it to him, he's just refusing to ship it to him.

Exactly true.

firestar
March 3, 2003, 02:53 AM
I never try to start out a getting hostile when I have a disagreement with someone, it leaves you nowhere to go. I always give people a chance to do the right thing but they seldom do.:rolleyes: Maybe I am too nice and people think they can walk over me.

I will keep you all posted. BTW, the seller never said he wouldn't ship to C&R in his ad.

This was going to be my first C&R purchase, guess it will have to wait. I tried to buy some guns from FAC but they were all out of everything I wanted (SKSs and M44s), I place an order anyway so if they get more, I will have them. I called every place I could find looking for Star Bs and no one had them. I called several places looking for what I thought were common guns and struck out many times.

I didn't know it was this hard to convince people to take my money.:scrutiny: I have all this money ear marked for C&R guns but no one seems interested in taking it.:rolleyes: Strange.

homeka45
March 3, 2003, 04:40 AM
Sorry to hear about your perilous adventures in the world of C&R.
I've yet to order with my license and I'll keep my fingers crossed.
Good Luck.
BTW on which auction site did you find this vendor?

firestar
March 3, 2003, 01:26 PM
Gunbroker.com

I don't think he is a bad guy, he just doesn't fully understand the law and he is being overly safe. If I can't set him (him and her actually, its appears to be a husband and wife team) then at least I can rip them a new one!:D

Hkmp5sd
March 3, 2003, 05:51 PM
While it doesn't appear to apply to this dealer, it dawned on me one reason why a dealer doesn't want to sell to a C&R FFL. Occasionally, you will see ads in Shotgun News selling guns that are listed as C&R in the advertisement, yet there is a little note saying they will only ship to 01-FFLs.

If he sells to an 01-FFL, he uses that dealers tax number to avoid having to collect sales taxes, which can be a real pain when selling to different states. When selling to the 03-FFL, who has no tax number and is the end-user, depending on the assorted states involved, he can spend a lot of time keeping tax records and writing checks to the tax agencies.

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