[Plinkerton]

I want to buy a shotgun for home defense, as I'm moving out of my tiny apartment, and into a real house.

My dad used to have an old Mossberg, that was all wood stocked, etc. It was a beast of a gun, but awesome nonetheless.

Unfortunately, my dad gave it back to his brother, because he bought it off him for $50 dollars back when they were kids, when my uncle was hard up for cash.

So, we now have a Maverick shotgun, Field model I believe.

Since I don't hunt, and won't really be hunting anytime soon, I would like a "defensive" shotgun.

I have been drooling over the "tactical" shotguns over at the Benelli website, but fear they are much to expensive for me.

I would like to have a light mounted, but I don't want to buy into all the other tactical mall ninja stuff.

I've always been partial to Mossbergs, as those are the first shotguns I can remember hearing about, and they seem to be great quality.

I like this one a lot, but realize that a "heat shield" is some of that tactical stuff that I don't think I need. I just like how this one looks.

#50665 590® 12 ga. Pump Action 9-shot capacity, parkerized finish, bead sight, 20" cylinder bore barrel with heat shield and Speed-Feed® stock. ...MSRP $519
http://www.mossberg.com/pcatalog/images/0250665.gif

I don't really want anything wood, as I don't want the weight, and I guess i'd just prefer a black one.

Also, I notice that most of the Benellis are autos. I have never shot an autoloader shotgun, so I really have nothing to base that on.

Anyhow, just curious for some recommendations as to what I should look into.
Nothing too "uber tactical" and nothing too "woodsy". :D

For me, quality is the most important thing. I want a shotgun I can have for many years, if not my whole lifetime. I want something I won't have to ever worry about, and something I can attach a light to, but that's not super important.

Thanks everyone.
-Plink-

[sm]

I am not as familar with the Mossbergs as others. These folks will be along.

Personally - Gun fit, training, instructions, BA/ UU/ R ...etc., would be where my monies would be invested moreso than the shotgun itself.

For instance a Maverick(by Mossberg) sells for $134 brand new at the Local Academy Sports. Your pictured gun above priced at $519 - $134 = $385 left over for ammo, lessons, range fees...

Just the way my mind is wired, especially for a new shotgunner.

http://www.thehighroad.org/search.php?searchid=81101

[ZeroX]

Remington 870 Express

[Selfdfenz]

I think the military adopted one Mossberg model as a martial weapon. Don't remember the number. I had an 835 but never liked to lockup on it. It wasn't smooth and took too much effort to begin the initial phase of the pump. I could never smooth it out no matter what I polished.
Maybe Mavericks are smoother.

I have to agree with sm. You can spend lots of money on a specialized unit that might be better spent in other ways. Forgive me for saying this but I figure what SD shotguns do most of the time is sit someplace as opposed to being fired at least occassionally as would be the case with a handgun.

IMO a well used but sound 870 with a 20 inch cyl bore barrel will last a lifetime and there are many commercial attachments for the 870 that will allow you to remodel it later as you see fit.
S-

[MrTuffPaws]

Antoher vote for the Remington 870 Express. I have a 20 gauge youth model that I put an 8 round extension on it. Really nice gun.

[Black Majik]

I'm gonna ditto the recommendation on the 870 Express. Though I would suggest to get the 870 HD model.

It has the 18.5" barrel and ext. magazine tube.

A very no frills kind of home defense shotgun.

It usually runs $300 or so, and its cheaper than the Mossy 590A1 model..

Advantages to the mossberg is higher magazine capacity and the speedfeed stock, though in my position i'd most likely never use the speedfeed stock.

Theres also the Winchester 1300, and the Benelli Nova.

But out of those, the Remington would be my pick.

Have fun.

[esldude]

I am of the opinion you are better off with an automatic for self defense. But they cost more. You could hardly find a better one than the Benelli's. Another option is the Remington 1187. Either will last a lifetime and then some.

Considering that you want it for a lifetime. Might be worth saving up and getting the right shotgun. Benelli would be a good choice.

[Plinkerton]

I'll definitely check in to the 870.

The Maverick is okay, but it feels a little cheap in my opinion. The price is right, but feeling that, compared to my dad's old Mossberg, is just night and say.

The Maverick feels rough, and wobbly. Overall, it seems to be a decently solid performer, but I want something that feels good also.

I'm not completely sold on buying a "tactical" shotgun. For the most part, as I don't go shooting that much in general, yes the shotgun won't be fired a whole lot. My 686 hasn't seen a lot of range time recently either... Maybe this week.

An all around general use shotgun would be great, as long as it's still reasonable for HD, and so far, it seems the 870 will fit the bill just fine.

Any more comments are much appreciated.

Thanks,
-Plink-

EDIT: Okay, I'm lookin' at the Remington site. I found this one,
http://www.remington.com/images/firearms/870expsyn18.JPG
which is the: Model 870™ Express® Synthetic (18" Barrel)

18" barrel. 7 shot capacity Fixed cylinder. One question, I live in California. Is there a law on capacity for a shotgun?

Oh, and I'm looking at the bottom picture. Also, if I ever wanted to use that shotgun for hunting, or clays, I could get a longer barrel for it right? And take off the mag extender?

I don't see anything specifically called the Express HD.

[Black Majik]

I'd also like to add that, take a feel of both of the shotguns, the mossy and the 870.

For me, IMO the racking of the forearm is a lot smoother on the 870 than the 590. For some reason when I checked out the 590A1, racking the forearm felt kind of rubbery/vague, while the 870 had a more distinct, positive, and smoother action while racking the forearm.

Take it for what its worth, but thats what sticks out most in my head when I think of 590 vs. 870.

[Plinkerton]

I'm gonna go try to find an 870 in one of the stores tomorrow. It seems to be perfect for what I need. The more I read about them, the more I don't know why me or my dad don't have one already.

EDIT: One other question. I have heard that quality control at Remington has been dropping lately. Is there any merit to that? I'd be looking to get a new 870, so is there something I should worry about?

[Black Majik]

plinkerton, where in california are you?

usually the sales price for the 870 HD model runs at $299. They used to have a factory rebate of $25 but I dont think they do that anymore, but it'll never hurt to check.

If you live in socal, Tuners Outdoorsman has a regular sale on the HD model.

[Justang]

The Rem 870 and the Mossy 500 are the two that seem to be debated the most.

I just bought a Mossberg 500A Persuader. It came with a buttstock and a pistol grip. I wanted home defense with the option of going out clay shooting. I thought the two stocks were a plus. I paid $269.99 for mine. Just got done with the 10 day wait Friday. :D

this is the gun:
with full stock
http://www.mossberg.com/pcatalog/images/0250411.gif

pistol grip
http://www.mossberg.com/pcatalog/images/51683.jpg
*not the same gun. The pistol grip one has the 14" barrel not for civilian use. Just add 4.5" to the barrel. :D

[Plinkerton]

I'm in Socal, in Santa Barbara.

Which one is the HD model? I don't specifically see it on the Remington website. I see the one of the picture I posted, but it's not called the HD model. Are they the same?

[Black Majik]

Plinkerton, yes they are the same.

Its the lower picture of the 2 remingtons you have posted. The one w. the ext mag tube.

[sm]

Original post stated YOU wanted a Mossberg for sentimentality. I posted with that in mind. I also provided a link to a slew of threads for you to read , I did a quick search : "defensive shotguns" > Dave McCracken.

In those posts , you will a variety of " This versus That" , " Mine is bigger than Yours" , " Iwannacoolgunvirus" , and your "Momma is Ugly and Wears Army Boots".

Bottom line - It is NEVER the firearm itself - It is the MINDSET of the user. My criteria for any defensive firearm - Gun must fit user , in a platform the user knows and can use the MOA, is reliable , ammo is reliable , in the largest caliber that affords quick accurate hits.

I like Wood & Blood personally , I like stock guns. The less crap there is - less crap to break and the gun not run.

I have used anything from Win SX1 ( which in my opinion is the MOST reliable semi- auto), SX2's, 1100s, Beretta 303s ,870s, 1300's, Model 37, 97, Model 12, ...

Most often - I am going to grap a 870 Express, bone stock. I bought it brand new, first new shotgun I have bought in y-e-a-r-s. I paid $174 . Yep it was $199 - $25 Rebate = $174.

I have already shot more than $174 worth of ammo thru it. Heck I run 200 slugs in one day alone. 100 rds of buckshot and another 100 rds of target loads two days later. In one week I ran probably 700- 800 rds.

DO not get caught up in all this. HD needs for you is different than 3 gunners, SWAT, LEO, Military ,... "Buford the Bear Slayer" or "Marvin the Mall Ninja" .

And quit gawking at "Pattie the Puma Puncher" , yeah she is a looker and all - but she knows how to shoot that 20 ga 1100. :neener:

[Rupestris]

I want to buy a shotgun...

I think you meant to say " I want to buy my first shot gun..." :p
Right now I'm looking for my 3rd 870 (4th SG overall). :rolleyes:

[Fred Fuller]

Another 870 fan weighing in here.

If you like 870s, you will most likely prefer an older production model to the new ones. New 870s have a lawyer inspired locking safety that has been known to lock itself without use of the key, rendering the gun unuseable until it is unlocked. Not the kind of thing I like to think about myself. There are some other changes on newer 870s that some afficianados find objectionable.

My suggestion is that you check on the thread at
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=107119 . Sgtb still has 18" parkerized 870 Police Magnum trade-ins for sale at a good price. I bought one of these retirees from him a month or so ago, and it is in great shape all round for a gun that was new in 1989.

If you don't like that idea, do by all means shop around for a good used 870. There are _lots_ of Cinderella 870s out there just looking for a good home, and Dave McC and I can't adopt them all (though we seem to try). It will save you a lot of money if you shop carefully, and you will get what I think is a better gun into the bargain. The last Cinderella 870 I brought home a few months ago was $145 out the door, a 21" vent rib barreled two bead sighted Express turkey gun that would be great for HD as well as lots of other more sporting applications. The wood needs refinishing on this one but after a good cleaning all else was in great shape.

And I heartily second the suggestions that you run the basic gun as is until it is an extension of your arms before adding bolt-ons. What matters is how good you are with the gun, not how kewl the hardware is.

Good luck in shopping, I hope you find an HD gun that makes you happy. Keep it simple, stick with a workhorse pumpgun for starters and don't worry about all those smarmy Benellis out there. Work on being so good with your plain jane pumpgun you can outshoot'em, that's the best thing for you _and_ them.

lpl/nc

[Zach S]

The 590 in your first post is simular to mine, I dont have the speed feed stock. Dont let the MSRP fool ya, they're never tagged that high (if they are, go somewhere else). I think mine (part #50660) had an MSRP of around $480, I paid $365 and tax.

[Gunsnrovers]

Since you're in California, check out the local Big 5. In Sunday's paper, they advertised the Mossberg 500 "Security" which is a 20" 8 shot 12 guage for $219. They daily have either the Mossberg or 870 Express on sale.

Either is a decent choice so long as you subscriber to aforementioned BA/UU/R (patent pending/t-shirts on order). :)

[MrMurphy]

The Remington 870 is the "King of Combat shotguns" and resides in most cop cars. Six million sold (for all uses) and still going strong. The 18" Express model would serve you well, I had one. The Police Magnum variant makes a better combat gun,but both work well in that role.

The Mossberg 500 is right behind the 870 in sales (it's a Ford/Chevy thing) and the Mossberg 590 was adopted by the military. Big 5 sells the Mossberg 500 twin pack (an 18" barrel and a 28" barrel with one gun) for $200 about once a month on sale, and it's a good deal. The Mossberg has a top-mounted tang safety which, being in front of your nose, is easy to remember it's there. My very first shotgun was an 18" six shot Mossberg 500. I donated it to my brother because he lacked bedroom artillery aside from a .45 at the time.


The Winchester 1300 and Benelli Nova run side by side in popularity (the Nova's newer) and all four of these pump action guns run about $250-300 in the 18" barrel variant for home defense.

I started with a Mossy 500, went to an 870 HD, sold it to a friend who needed one, and bought a Benelli Nova SP Tactical with ghost ring sights out of variety. It's worked well.

All you need for a house gun: Bead sight, stock holder for some spare shells, and a LIGHT! (You MUST identify your target before firing)... Surefire makes the best of them.

[Plinkerton]

Mr Murphy, that's what I want on my HD gun. I want a light, and some extra shells, and that's about it. I don't want crazy sights or anything, as I'm used to standard bead.

I would say this is my first shotgun, but for the most part it's not. The Maverick we have is mine, as I picked it out, and my dad pretty much bought it for me. But, it's the only shotgun we have, and I let him keep it at his house. I don't want to ask for it back, as then he would have to go buy one.

I love the top mounted safety, so I may be looking at those. My dads old Mossberg had a top mounted, and the Maverick has the trigger guard ones (I don't know what they're called) and it was a pain to get used to.

Thanks for the Big 5 recommendation. I'll head over there right now.

Thanks,
Plink

[Dave McCracken]

Ladies and Gennelmun, my $0.02.....

EVERY shotgun mentioned in this thread will do the job. From the po' relation Maverick to the B guns costing 4 figures, they will do the job IF we do ours.

In HD, and probably most combat in general, the weak link is not the gear.

"We have met the enemy, and he is us."-Pogo....

Training, mindset and commitment have lots more to do with who assumes ambient temperature after a crisis than make, model and bling.

If that's not on a tablet of stone in The Temple of the Shotgun Gods, it oughta be.

Get any shotgun you darn well want to. If it goes glitchless for 200 rounds of duty ammo when broken in and is comfortable to shoot, it's a good choice. Shoot it until you and it are one. Then, decide what, IF ANYTHING,needs to be changed, improved or added to. Chances are that will be a very short list.

HTH.....

[Plinkerton]

Went to all the gun stores today, including Big 5.

Found the Remington 870 HD one, and I love it. I played with some Benellis and some Mossbergs, and even this insane HK that they don't make anymore. The HK had fiber optic Ghost rings, and a pistol grip, etc. Was extremely light and very comfortable, though there's no reason in hell I would ever need one of those. It was fun to play with though.

The Remington is great. Feels very solid, much more than the Maverick we have.

Anyhow, I'll be getting it sometime very soon. Big 5 had a sale of the same model for 30 bucks cheaper, but I think I'm gonna buy it from the local gun store, cause it's not that much more, and they're nice folk in there.

So, I'm stoked. It was nice to actually get to see the one I want to buy. They also had a BFR in there. Those things are ridiculous.

Oh, by the way, for Cali prices, the 870 was 330.

Thanks everyone.
-Plink-

Any other opinions, suggestions still welcome.

[Black Majik]

Yup, that sounds about right. Regular going price is $329.00...

Sale price is usually 299.


But, glad you liked the 870. Means my recommendation wasn't completely useless. :D

Congrats on your future shotgun! Remember to BA/UU.R! :)

[ZeroX]

Your decision makes me feel validated.

Good shooting.

[Plinkerton]

Oh, one last question. A while ago, when I was planning on getting a CZ-P01 (which I'll still get one of these days) he offered to buy me a Surefire light for it.

Now that I'm getting a shotgun though, I was thinking about him getting me a surefire for that instead. I checked out the ones on their site, and have looked at some small pictures of them mounted on shotguns.

I was curious if they replaced the whole pump grip part of the shotgun? It seems like that's the only way it would go on. It looks like it has little grooves on the side for the dual pump arm thingies.

If anyone has one of these, and you do in fact replace the front end part (and it does call it a Replacement front end on the surefire website) is it a lot different? Is it still comfortable? Do you like it overall?

Some pictures of installed lights would be great also, if anyone has any.

Thanks again. I love these forums.

-Plink-

[Fred Fuller]

The SF light units replace the fore-end, which is part #25 in the exploded drawing at http://www.okiegunsmithshop.com/rem870.jpg . Making the exchange requires field stripping the gun (instructions in the factory supplied manual if you buy new, or online at Remington's website), removing the fore-end tube nut (part #27), removing the fore-end, replacing it with the SureFire, then reassembling in reverse order. The SF units used to come with a flat bar stock tool to do the remove & replace of the fore-end tube nut, it's been years since I bought one and I don't know if they still do.

You can see a pic at http://www.surefire.com/maxexp/main/co_disp/displ/carfnbr/92/sesent/00 . I have them on a couple of 870s but don't have any way to post pics.

A couple of caveats: SFs are battery hogs. You will get about 20 minutes runtime on a pair of batteries. SFs are widely touted to be able to blind the bad guy. Got news for you- bounce out of bed at oh-dark-thirty and hit the switch on a SF, and _you_ are gonna get blinded too- especially if your rooms are painted in light colors. I like lights on HD guns but I have gone to LEDs for the most part, they give enough light for in-home target ID but are not blinding if you are behind them. And the LEDs are tough little suckers too, much moreso than bulbs.

hth,

lpl/nc

[sm]

*ahem* Since you made an excellent point...

"Tag your it"

I volunteer you to start a thread about Bright lights, light painted walls, mirrors, glass and such for HD use.

Oh me? Just curious what the thread will teach us . Looking forward to your thread, and input from folks. Especially from perspectives of folks like Denny,Preacherman Sapper,Jeff White, El Tejon... folks that have taken/ taught training. Awerbuck's thoughts?

All I know is outside pitch dark, and inside with ambient lighting, and aformentioned "reflections" - differences have occured for ME>

[Plinkerton]

I see Mr. Lapin. Thanks for the instal tips. It says on the site, thought I don't know how it compares to real use, that they will get one hour of light ith the standard configuration, and 20 minutes in the high out put configuration. But, I suppose that could all be different.

Curious, which Surefire models to you specificall have? The standard one? Or the extra bright one? or the one with the disable switch?

And how does using the light, affect pumping the action? Is it still great overall?

Thanks everyone,
-Plink-

EDIT: Oh, and one other thing. I notice that the batteries for the Surefires are those long strung together lithium batteries, which seem to cost between 15 & 20 dollars. Are those the only options for batteries? I realize they aren't going to get used a lot, but 20 bucks for a short amount of light time isn't that great of a deal.

Thanks again.

[Zach S]

All you need for a house gun: Bead sight, stock holder for some spare shells, and a LIGHT! (You MUST identify your target before firing)... Surefire makes the best of them.
Unless its a spped-feed stock, I wouldnt want to put shells on the stock even though a decent butt-cuff is about $25 cheaper than a Tac Star side-saddle. At some point one may need to fire from their off-shoulder, and I'd rather get a cheekweld on a semi-comfortable stock than very uncomfortable shells.

A couple of caveats: SFs are battery hogs. You will get about 20 minutes runtime on a pair of batteries.
Thats with the high-output 6 volt lamp (P61?). I think the standard lamp (P60) lasts for about an hour. Eh, Plinkerton beat me to that...

IME the 6 volt surefire I keep in my pocket seems to last more than an hour, but not much. The only thing I hate about them is the lights dont go dim when the batteries start to die, it just goes out.


I dont have a light on mine yet, when I get the fundage needed I'm going with a 623FA (no master kill switch), if I dont think its bright enough I'll get the 9 volt kit.

[MrMurphy]

The standard lamp runs about an hour. The pump operation works the same as the normal gun.


Loctite your Sidesaddle screws. Mine tried to desert my gun in the middle of a shotgun match cause the screws holding the shell loops to the plate began unscrewing themselves.

[Plinkerton]

I want the 9V model. Becuase brighter is better right? :p

I figure, why not get the more expensive one if I can. Might as well blind everyone in the room including the neighbors. I wish the batteries weren't 20 bucks though...

[Justang]

So did you decide on the 870?

[Plinkerton]

Yup. Decided on the 870 for sure. I'm thinking about going and putting a deposit on it today, just to make sure no one buys it.

I told my dad about it, and he brought up that the Maverick we have is mine. I told him I didn't want him not to have one, and he said I should just take the Maverick, and he could buy another one. I told him he could buy the Maverick off me, half joking, and he agreed. :D

My dad's awesome. Always wants to help me out. So, I'm definitely getting that 870.

Kickass. :p

[Fred Fuller]

SureFire pairs batteries for its shotgun lights by banding them with heatshrink tubing. I think they're soldered together under there too, can't recall. That's why they are expensive. Batteries in shotgun lights take a pounding from recoil too, just like bulbs. In spite of the shock mounting both can fail under use, and not necessarily heavy use either. SF used to sell a 'practice plug' for its shotgun lights to keep gunk out of the unit when the light and the batteries were removed, there's one in a pocket of the soft case my working gun rides in. I avoid battering bulbs and batteries whenever possible, just a habit I picked up along the way.

A couple of the SF units I have were castoffs from a place that went through them pretty rapidly (they went through pretty much _everything_ pretty rapidly, even shooting houses). I repaired them, restored them to function and mounted them on guns that now spend by far the most of their time in the safe. I bought one used and a couple new. All of them are set up as high output lights. All of them are older models, dunno model numbers. They came along early and I didn't know about cutoff switches when I was working with them. Mine all have ribbon switches, and that's all. I use switch guards on all mine, the rectangular part of a handle off a Wendy's spoon positioned properly under some skateboard tape works just as well as the $6 item from SF.

Installing the SF unit properly will not affect the action of the gun at all. As to possible effect on the shooter, there is no real difference except the loss of some "hand room" on the short forearm. That means some shooters whose arms are shorter (and there are some small statured folks running 12 ga. 870s, like my wife) don't have the reach to be comfortable with the SF unit installed. The long field type forearm works better for them since it gives them more to hold onto and doesn't require the weak hand to be extended so far forward.

Another thing I have seen a couple of times with the SF shotgun units on 870s is shooters getting a 'bite' taken out of the heel of the hand when it gets caught between the back of the short forearm and the front of the receiver. More get pinched than actually bitten, blood blisters are more common than blood but people who work the pump hard have been bloodied on a couple of occasions I know of. Some folks cut the back of the forearm shorter so it doesn't overlap the receiver at all, and round off the bottom corner of the receiver in order to avoid this. Understand, I am talking about people who were getting the best training Uncle could muster, who went through a lot of ammo and got pressured a lot in the process. It doesn't usually happen in more ordinary circumstances, but I do know of students in some high pressure shotgun classes who got bitten this way.

May be more than you wanted to know, but fwiw there 'tis...

lpl/nc

[Justang]

Cool. I have the Mossy. My best friend has an 870. Not a tactical shotty... it has a longer barrell. I have yet to shoot it... I look forward to shooting it after x-maz. :D

[Plinkerton]

Thanks a lot Mr. Lapin. There's no such thing as too much knowledge, so it's all welcome.

I went and looked at it again today, and I'm still getting it. :D

I'll post some pics and all that jazz when I get it.

Thanks everyone,
-Plink-

[Plinkerton]

Well, plunked down the cash today. I walked into the gun store, and said I wanted to buy it, and the guy there said I put up a good fight. :D I've been in there a few times looking at the same gun.

But, I caved, and I'm stoked. I'm going out of town and coming back one day before my 10 days are up, so I won't even feel the waiting period, which is nice.

Thanks again everyone,
I can't wait to shoot it.
-Plink-

[Plinkerton]

Not that anyone's paying a whole lot of attention, but it's 9 days! I'm gonna go pick it up tomorrow!

I doubt I'll be able to shoot it any time soon, as it's all rainy up here, and I have to move this week and the next.

I'll keep you updated.

-Plink-

[Plinkerton]

Alright. Picked it up today. I have a question.

I figured out how to get the mag extension off, but I can't figure out how to actually dissassemble the gun. I got the mag extension off by removing the extension to barrel holder thing, and then the entire extension unscrewed. There is no real magazine plug thing though, as the extension takes it's place. There is that ribbed cap thing, that looks like it should be unscrewed, but it doesn't want to budge, and I don't want to take pliers to it, if it's incorrect.

The barrel won't move, as that barrel ring, that fits over the magazine, is held on by that cap, that holds the extension on. Any tips? My other shotgun comes apart no problem, as the mag cap, is connected to the barrel, and when you unscrew it, the whole barrel comes off.

Thanks,
Plink

[Dave McCracken]

Use channelocks padded with scrap leather or tape on that collar. Go easy....