Beretta or Sig? San Fran PD Dumps Beretta


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LAR-15
December 18, 2004, 11:08 PM
Joe Rogers for KCBS-740 AM

(KCBS) - As the San Francisco Police Dept. begins replacing 2,000 side arms this week, some members of the police commission have expressed worry about where the department’s old guns may eventually wind up.


“From my personal point of view, there isn’t enough money in the world to compensate if the guns or any part thereof end up in the hands of the bad guys,” SF Police Commission president Louise Renne told KCBS reporter Larry Chiaroni.


The department has discontinued use of its current Beretta pistols because of a problem with that model’s accuracy. By Thursday, some San Francisco police officers are expected to be carrying .40 caliber SIG-Sauers instead.


The SFPD plans to return the old Berettas to the company which supplied the new guns in exchange for a $350,000 credit.


Renne, who as a City Attourney took gun manufacturers to court on charges that they alledgedly supplied dealers who knowingly did business with criminals, said she wants to make sure that the department’s old guns do not wind up on the streets.


“We believe that gun manufacturers were not careful in their sales, in that they did make sales where guns ended up on the street. What assurance do we have that this gun manufacturer is not going to make a subsequent sale to places where they could end up in the hands of the criminals?” Renne asked.


“If there are no guarantees, then it would be my position that we forego the credit and otherwise dispose in some fashion of these guns,” Renne said.


The new weapons will arrive in shipments of 200 at a time, so some police officials anticipate it may take as long as one year to switch completely to the SIG-Sauer.

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SiG Lady
December 18, 2004, 11:40 PM
Did anyone there indicate which MODEL of Sig they preferred...?

R.H. Lee
December 18, 2004, 11:44 PM
“From my personal point of view, there isn’t enough money in the world to compensate if the guns or any part thereof end up in the hands of the bad guys,” SF Police Commission president Louise Renne told KCBS reporter Larry Chiaroni.

Translation: Bad guys=anybody who is not law enforcement . :rolleyes:

10-Ring
December 19, 2004, 12:02 AM
They still arm their LEOs in SF? :sarcasm: :evil:

Dienekes
December 19, 2004, 12:59 AM
Typical left coast arrogance. The twit police commissioner (attorney) is apparently willing to flush $350 K of taxpayers' money down the drain because of her "feelings".

Pathetic.

Campusninja
December 19, 2004, 02:20 AM
The department has discontinued use of its current Beretta pistols because of a problem with that model’s accuracy.
Hmm.........
some members of the police commission have expressed worry about where the department’s old guns may eventually wind up.

I am no rocket scientist nor do I play one on TV but if the gun is inaccurate, wouldn't this be a benefit of some sort?






But what do I know

stv
December 19, 2004, 07:36 AM
Louise Renne made a name for herself suing gun manufacturers. She's now in charge of the (anti-cop) Police Commission. If she had her way, I believe she would arm SFPD only with harsh language and plastic flashlights.

Side note: I haven't seen any PD with Sigs yet, but they did just start to change over. I'd like to get my hands on one of those 96Ds, but it remains to be seen what Sig will do with them.

MrMurphy
December 19, 2004, 10:34 AM
I thought San Franscisco cops were only allowed plastic flashlights and tie-dye t-shirts, and had to sit there singing "Kumbayah" or the "Internationale" until the criminal committed suicide out of desperation......



Long gone are the days of Dirty Harry.

JAREDSHS
December 19, 2004, 12:54 PM
:fire: We should all feel thankfull that we do not have to live in that city.
The 11 city comissioners are gearing up to confiscate all handguns from their citizenry next November. If the measure passes, all citizens of SanFransisco will have 90 days to voluntarily turn in their handguns. see(www.NRAILA.org)
I am glad I live in the hills of good old"trailer trash" TENNESSEE!!

Dave Ginn

SiG Lady
December 19, 2004, 02:57 PM
Watch the emigration numbers increase if that thing passes.... :fire:
It's an outrage. :cuss:

Please understand that San Francisco wasn't always this way. It was a truly great place to be... quite some time ago.

Tecolote
December 19, 2004, 04:05 PM
Trigger unhappy
Cops ditching Beretta for new semi-automatic.
By Alison Soltau | Staff Writer
Published on Thursday, June 24, 2004

The Police Department is phasing out more than 2,000 of the semi-automatic Beretta handguns issued to every police officer and replacing them with another weapon, saying that there were issues with some of the Berettas that could have a minor effect on accuracy.

But a police official said the use of Berettas had never placed the public in danger nor arisen as an issue in any officer-involved shootings of suspects.

Cops first noticed an issue with the Beretta semi-automatics about a year ago at the Police Academy target range and initially corrected it by changing the gun's ammunition and replacing the barrels, said Deputy Chief of Administration Antonio Parra.

Police said the problem was a phenomenon known as "keyholing." Examiner research found that keyholing is the failure of a bullet to remain balanced in flight so that it enters the target sideways, leaving an elongated opening.

"It can minorly affect the accuracy of a weapon," Parra said.

The issue was noticed in about a half-dozen weapons when officers arrived at the Academy for their mandatory re-qualification in shooting.

Police will start introducing SIG-Sauer guns, like Berettas a .40-caliber weapon, on July 1. The arms will arrive in shipments of about 200 at a time, and it may take up to a year to fully switch to the new weapon, Parra said.

"We are switching to Sig because we feel it's a quality product," Parra said. "We are always looking for the finest tools to give our officers ... this is an upgrade," he said.

Sig, a Swiss company, also gave more responsive customer service than Beretta, an Italian firm, Parra said.

Police have arranged with Sig to dismantle the Berettas and send them to Sig in exchange for a monetary credit of up to $350,000, Parra said.

Cops switched from revolvers to the semi-automatic Berettas back in 1995, in the wake of the slaying of Police Officer James Guelff. Police did consider selecting Sigs guns at the time, but Beretta was a more competitive bidder.

Police Commission president Louise Renne has raised concerns about where redundant police weapons would wind up.

In her former role as city attorney, Renne sued gun manufacturers, charging that they supplied arms to dealers who knowingly sold to criminals.

"I have a very strong prejudice against gun manufacturers. There is strong evidence in a lot of cases that gun manufacturers are not limiting their sales to the Police Department," Renne said.

Parra said the registration numbers of the existing Berettas would be destroyed and the new Sigs' numbers would be registered with the Department of Justice.

The City Attorney was "looking at the legal issues" involving Beretta as the manufacturer, Parra said, but didn't elaborate.

Beretta USA did not return calls seeking comment.

Are they going with the DAK?

GTKrockeTT
December 19, 2004, 04:20 PM
all i want to know is....where can i pick up some of those beretta trade-ins? :D

nhhillbilly
December 19, 2004, 04:33 PM
Why would any gun man. sell them guns when they are being sued. If the city sues don't sell them any firearms.

I have a couple of Beretta 92F's and they are very accurate. I have never shot the 96.

dsk
December 19, 2004, 04:54 PM
"I have a very strong prejudice against gun manufacturers. There is strong evidence in a lot of cases that gun manufacturers are not limiting their sales to the Police Department," Renne said.

That says it all.

Mastrogiacomo
December 19, 2004, 05:18 PM
Kind of stupid to waste tax payers' money. Who's the one that decided the Berettas weren't accurate? I have four -- and all hit the bullseye. Maybe they need to spend more time at the range and less at Dunkin Donuts....

Tecolote
December 19, 2004, 05:41 PM
How would spending more time at the range prevent keyholing?

Jeff Timm
December 19, 2004, 07:16 PM
I have never heard of a pistol caliber round, keyholeing out of a standard barrel. I suspect SFPD has been messing with "green ammo" or some such, or worse buying ammo from questionable sources.

Geoff
Who may not like the M-9, but heck, I've never had one keyhole on me!

Island Beretta
December 19, 2004, 10:39 PM
what utter nonsense, blimey!!

Beretta inaccurate, Sig an upgrade blah blah etc.. I guess Inspector Callahan was right!! :evil:

mrapathy2000
December 20, 2004, 03:41 AM
The department has discontinued use of its current Beretta pistols because of a problem with that model?s accuracy.

I bet they have a problem with the sigs being accurate. not because of the gun or caliber either though they will probably end up ditching 40S&W because its not accurate either :rolleyes:.

cstreu1026
December 20, 2004, 10:30 AM
I can honestly say that I have never heard of a Beretta not being acurate. I agree that maybe some of these officers should spend a little more time on the range. And this just another story that makes me darn glad I don't live in California. Ohio may not be great but atleast they are not trying to take my guns away.

SouthpawShootr
December 20, 2004, 10:33 AM
Wouldn't it be interesting if all gun manufacturers and LE dealers refused to do business with localities that tried to sue them? Never happen, but couldn't hurt to fantasize. Maybe a $200 surcharge on each gun sold to LE agencies in these localities? Don't take me for an LE hater, I'm not. The only way you get these local officials to behave is to hit them in their pocketbooks. If they can't get new guns, pretty soon the police unions will raise hell. That alone should create enough political pressure to help matters.

It appears that there is legal precedence for this sort of thing. There was a piece a while back where a judge upheld Ford's refusal to sell Crown Vics to a sheriff's dept in Florida that was suing Ford over some supposed (reall or not, I'm not interested in debating) defect. Had something to do with the gas tank, IIRC.

My understanding is that keyholing is largely due to a damaged crown, commonly from dropping the damn gun. I doubt you would need to replace the barrel, all you'd need is an armorer with a little machine tool experience. I have had a number of Berettas and I've never encountered one that was inaccurate. Anybody know if these were 9mms or .40s?

cstreu1026
December 20, 2004, 10:51 AM
I say them the guns....... but figure in the cost of legal fees and settlements. It will eventually become too expensive to sue the gun makers and still buy weapons from them. I think SFPd would be keeping those Berettas if it was going to cost them $5000/gun to replace them becuase of their merritless lawsuit.

Master Blaster
December 20, 2004, 02:10 PM
I have seen my berretta 92 INOX compact Keyhole. When it was brand new.

I also know why, I was shooting lead ammunition that I reloaded out of it, berretta says not to shoot lead ammo in the manual, but I figured harcast 9mm would be OK. I was wrong, after about 20 rounds the bullets began hitting the target in profile. I removed the barrel and looked down it and saw shreads of lead hanging off the lands. When I cleaned it later I had strips of lead foil coming out of the barrel. So then I started using copper plated Berry's bullets or FMJ only and never did see the problem recurr.

My guess is that their keyholing was caused by bad reloaded ammo with very soft bullet jackets or even lead!!!.

There is strong evidence in a lot of cases that gun manufacturers are not limiting their sales to the Police Department," Renne said.

Really gun mfgrs sell to retailers and wholesalers and they sell to ordinary people. :neener:

What rock does this ninny live under??????

Bart Noir
December 21, 2004, 10:07 PM
Police said the problem was a phenomenon known as "keyholing." Examiner research found that keyholing is the failure of a bullet to remain balanced in flight so that it enters the target sideways, leaving an elongated opening.

"It can minorly affect the accuracy of a weapon," Parra said.

Anybody else think this is a twit-like statement? My experience with keyholing is that the bullet is a danger to anyone not standing behind the shooter. "Minorly affect" my tired keister!

Bart Noir

Motor-T
December 21, 2004, 11:20 PM
Keyholing?
Probably 10 years of copper fouling. I'd bet a 55 gallon drum of elbow grease would solve their "accuracy" problem. :confused:

SouthpawShootr
December 22, 2004, 01:10 PM
"It can minorly affect the accuracy of a weapon," Parra said.

I don't know about their "research," but anytime keyholing has happened in my guns, it was no minor matter. I wouldn't get groups, I'd have patterns.

I doubt they made a serious effort to troubleshoot/solve the problem.

trickyasafox
December 22, 2004, 01:56 PM
excuse me while i go vomit. . . kalifornistan is really taking it to a whole new level of disgust.

HankB
December 22, 2004, 03:14 PM
"I have a very strong prejudice against gun manufacturers. . . . " Renne said. It seems that public admission of "a very strong prejudice" against gun manufacturers could be very useful to a gun manufacturer's legal counsel should Renne become involved in another anti-gun lawsuit.

I hope they're making note of this.

sfhogman
December 22, 2004, 07:23 PM
Keyholing? Ohhhhhh.....KEYholing! :neener:

Couldn't resist,
Jeff

MP-5
December 23, 2004, 03:18 AM
Carried a 96D for a number of years in a harsh enviornment and it was one of the most accurate and reliable 40's out there. Weapons do however wear out. Parts do start to break after 10K with hot 155 grain duty ammo with the 96. :(

Bill B.
December 23, 2004, 10:56 AM
I suspect that Beretta inaccuracy could be cured by spending more on training ammo for the San Fran Police Dept! :rolleyes: When I hear stories such as this ................ no never mind, :)

halvey
December 23, 2004, 11:46 AM
The department has discontinued use of its current Beretta pistols because of a problem with that model’s accuracy. HAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!! Cops and accuracy! HAHAHAHAHAHA!
:) :) :) :) :)

Lobotomy Boy
December 23, 2004, 12:10 PM
Could keyholing result from the San Francisco officers limp wristing their guns?

I'm sorry. That was just too easy.

Pointman1776
December 24, 2004, 03:27 AM
Oh, man, LB, that was TOO funny!! :evil:

SnWnMe
December 24, 2004, 12:13 PM
The fire and the earthquake didn't solve the problem. Maybe both hitting at the same time tomorrow will?

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