gun "game" gripes? what are they?


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john l
March 2, 2003, 10:36 PM
guys,
By way of introduction, I have been involved in IDPA ( club officer level) for the past few years (1998) and have organized the Utah Defensive Pistol League's (IDPA affiliate) non-sanctioned, of course 3 gun match branch. We had 5 matches last year that I was match director, and this year Larry Correia is on board as asst match director.
So I hear now and again that IDPA is just as "non-real" as IPSC and other stuff that tends to raise the back of my neck hair just a bit, I would like to say that the two IDPA clubs that I have been involved with have been real good at putting on tactically correct matches. I feel that if you want to go to an IDPA match and have the outlook of a martial artist, then you have a venue to do that, and if it is more like a game, then you can go and have a good time too.
The main problem from a match-organizational level is that if you wanted to stay "tactically correct" at an IDPA match, then you would have 4-5 stages, one or two targets at each one, and you would probably have 15 total match rounds shot, because after all, the real life encounter would be an ave. of 1-3 shots fired total.(per gunfight-FBI stats) Now, I could guarantee if i showed up at a match and shot 15 rounds, I wouldn't come back, so there has to be a little bit more out there for even the martial artist type of guy ( which is the category I feel more comfortable in).
So my question is founded from the motivation that I want to ensure IDPA stays real as possible, and that is, what do you guys want to see happen at a match that keeps the match "real" as possible? What pisses you off, what do you like?
Thanks,
John L

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FPrice
March 2, 2003, 11:08 PM
I have not participated in any such competitions since the mid-80's when I shot IPSC back in Washington State. The primary reason has been time, I just don't have much extra. Personal and professional reasons.

When I participated I shot primarily against myself. While I tried to be somewhat competitve I realized that I was not going to be able to put the time in to raise my performance level to the point where I could win. So I settled for trying to improve my skills as much as I could, have fun, and try to learn something.

I hope to try IDPA sometime in the near future, maybe at the S&W Academy.

What makes me upset is when people try to make the "game" (and it all is a game in a manner of speaking) so dependant on competition that they forget the "fun" or enjoyment factor. By all means make it challenging, encourage people to try harder and raise their own personal performance levels, but try to keep it enjoyable so that the lowest level shooter has a reason to come back.

My .024 cents worth (two cents adjusted for inflation).

Jeeper
March 3, 2003, 10:10 AM
Since I am one of the people that definately belives that IDPA is just as gamey as USPSA here is my 2cents

Pet peeves:
Some squads disregarding rules to make it gamey(er)
RO's that let people not use cover or do tac reloads

Suggestions:
Do a par time stage where the hit count becomes the most important.
You could do a stage where you cant see the course ahead of time.
Have them start back to the targets and use stick on guns and cell phones to change the course around so they cant plan where to shoot first

I think that IDPA should be about draws from concealment to engage a nearby target and then moving to cover and engaging more target. That or draw and engage 2-3 and move. Practicing close range quick shots and then moving.

IDPA will always be a "game" as long as time is involved

Correia
March 3, 2003, 03:24 PM
My pet peeve is missing the target. :D

I think that it is always going to be a challenge to have that balance of fun vs. realism vs. game vs. tactical correctness. You make it too realistic and you turn off some shooters. You make it too gamey and you turn off others. You make it too athletic and you lose your older guys and those that are out of shape, you make it not athletic enough you tick off the young and healthy. Some shooters thrive on challenges that they aren't good at. Others whine and leave.

It is tough to make everybody happy, but I think our local IDPA club does a pretty good job. Challenging stages, realistic enough to be good practice, but not so unrealistic that they are silly.

faustulus
March 3, 2003, 08:43 PM
I look at IDPA and IPSC as games, they are our version of golf. Sure we can learn from them (both of them) but they still have rules and they still have points.
As far as the average gun fight...
no one pratices for the average anything. You prepare for the worst and hope for the best.
My pet peeves have mostly to do with the rules.
I hate the "get shot while You fiddle with this mag" reload.
I never understood why you couldn't drop to your knees.
And various equipment rules vex me.
All that said IDPA is still fun. A nice way to let off steam with friends on the weekend and a heck of a answer to "what's your handicap?"

Gary G23
March 3, 2003, 10:38 PM
I have shot IDPA since the beginning and have shot the last three National Championships. What gripes me is when you go to a club level match and they don't enforce IDPA rules because "it's just a club match" or they let people use illegal equipment because "it's just a club match". I think the sport would be better off if the rules were enforced at ALL levels.

Smoke
March 4, 2003, 09:26 AM
Forget the "Tac" reload rule.

I train to strip a mag if its empty or fouled up. I never try to retain a mag I've jerked for any reason.

IDPA is a game but it can be a useful tool to add a level of stress to your training. I run an IDPA course exactly as I have been trained. SO I usually don't place very high, even though my shots may be very good.

charleym3
March 4, 2003, 02:14 PM
I started shooting IPSC in 1985 and gave it up in 1991 due to burn-out. When I tried it again in 1998 and nearly got into a fist fight with an arrogant jack-*** who was walking on my magazines and kicking them out of the way so that he could get his karma right while he was shadow shooting the stage.
I decided to try IDPA in 1999. Found a great club in North Central NC. I've designed a few stages. I'm an SO. I have handed out procedurals, FTDRs and DQs to deserving individuals. I have also coached shooters through stages rather than see them flat blow it. The sword cuts both ways, as I've also had my fair share of procedurals, HONT, and FTNs. I've learned that some rules rigid some are flexible.

Things I'd like to see if IDPA is supposed to provide realism:
Allow waist packs at all levels - They are slower than a holster, but some people, including me at times, carry that way. If the muzzle points in an unsafe direction DQ! Shooters choice.
Drop the revolver friendly concept. The streets don't provide shooting opportunities that are even multiples of 6. IDPA shouldn't either. Did I mention that I carry a wheel gun daily?
Some stages should have an ocean of no shoots - If I'm in line a Blockbuster at 9:00 on Friday night and 3 guys come in with shotguns, things will get interesting.
Longest range shot should be 10 yards.
require all mag carriers be behind the center line including revolvers. I carry my speed loaders behind the center line in real life as anyone who carries a wheel gun does. The "two infront of the holster" thing is just plain stupid.

If its a game:
Add more house clearing stages. Those are always lots of fun. Take the round count up to around 20. Make it seperate from the standard match and let folks go through as many times as they want for $X per run. Give back a percentage in Lewis scoring system.
I like the thinking stages. Flip a coin. The color that you see is the one that you DO NOT shoot.
Add shots out to as much as 40 or 50 yards.
Require a TAC reload, then require the shooter to used the saved ammunition later in the stage.

Things I'd like to see in general :
Add a .22 caliber division. I know people really do carry them.
Include 7 and 8 shot revolvers in CDP.

There's more but that's enough rants for one post.

Archie
March 7, 2003, 12:15 AM
Not magazine size. My biggest pet peeve is the "twenty round burst syndrome".

Check out the original Mexican Defense Course. It's a well thought out, fairly comprehensive test of gun-handling ability.

Constant reloads (unless one misses a lot) are not realistic.

"Tactical" reloads, involving a juggling act with points off for dropping, are NOT done under time. One tops off one's magazine when one has a chance to do so. Usually when one is not being shot at.

Some of us do wear exposed holsters. The IDPA concealed rule is not universal.

Solid hits count more than fast noises.

In my world, I more no shoot than shoot targets. Always. Many more.

All misses count!!!!

Quantrill
March 7, 2003, 08:47 AM
Finding the darn brass after shooting your stint. Quantrill

WESHOOT2
March 7, 2003, 01:45 PM
1) *********s with egos.

2) Gear weenies, whether it's the STI/SV/Glock/H&K-guys or the tactical weenies (anyone reading this actually ever meet a real tactical puke?).

3) Cheaters, whether it's PF or standing in front of a no-shoot hole.

4) Shooters without sportsmanship.

5) Non-helpers.

6) ANY unsafe gun-handling.

7) Whiners.

Notice I've managed to avoid mentioning anything about rules?

charleym3
March 7, 2003, 02:45 PM
Okay,
Non-helpers and stage lawyers, The people who want every advantage so they ask things like "What do you consider 51% coverage? How far can we lean over the edge of the shooting line?" Which has me thinking that I need a shirt that says, "Just shut up and shoot the damn stage."

WESHOOT2
March 7, 2003, 03:01 PM
I'll never forget the guys from Virginia wearing shirts with embroidered sleeves saying "Whine and I'll kill you" (my personal fav) and "Shut up and shoot".

Correia
March 7, 2003, 03:12 PM
Range Lawyers are scum. :)

WESHOOT2
March 7, 2003, 09:00 PM
I keep a USPSA rulebook in my purse, and I have them 'hole-judging' thingies in my range bag (I think).

All that said, I don't really care.
Survivor, not gamesman.

Oh, and scum, too. :neener:

charleym3
March 8, 2003, 10:18 AM
Interesting / humerous story behind my becoming an SO. I had designed a stage. It was pretty straigt forward. 9 rounds required as I wanted to keep round dumping to a minimum. The match director had me shoot the other SOs through. One of them had a reputation for whining though I had never really seen him in action.
At the brief he asked no questions. When I had him on the line and asked if he had any questions he came up with 5. He was the next to last shooter and had watched everyone else shoot. The 4th question got him a response of "Do what you think best and I'll decide whether it is a procedural or an FTDR." When he asked the next question which was even more obscure than the last, I responded "Just shut up and shoot the MF thing... THE SHOOTER IS READY! STAND BY! " BEEP!

The match director told me later that he wanted to see if I would get rattled, and asked me to take the SO course and get the certification. The shooter was put up to it. We all had a good laugh.

Archie
March 9, 2003, 01:24 AM
The shooter should be ready to "load and be ready" or "be ready" (depending on if you have a load circle) when they get in the shooting box.

I get so sick of watching some doofus adjust his cap, pull up his pants, "pinch check" to make sure he loaded, do two or three shadow draws, lean out of the box to see that last target, "pinch check" to make sure he loaded, take two or three cleansing breaths, chant his manrta, "pinch check" to make sure he loaded, kick a couple pieces of brass away from his feet, throw the salt onto the range, "pinch check" to make sure he loaded, re-adjust his cap....

If he was in a real gunfight, the coroner would be here by now.

How about something like the stage starts no less than 15 seconds from the time the shooter is directed to the starting box?

WESHOOT2
March 9, 2003, 01:31 AM
Good thing it's just a game.

faustulus
March 9, 2003, 03:00 AM
Archie,
I bet you aren't a big baseball fan :)

The only thing that really bugs me about the shooters is the born-again converts. The guys who preach that the only way to do it is the "tatical way" I shoot to have fun. I don't take it too seriously, it is after all a game.

Andrew Wyatt
March 10, 2003, 11:01 PM
What bugs me about "Games" is the far reaching and inappropriate use of the term " game" when discussing them.


"Game" implies "utter waste of time".

Skills tests like 3-gun comps, IDPA, and to a limited extent IPSC can be likened to exams, in that they show you what you need to work on with your "homework" (training).


another thing that urks me is all the rifle stages i keep hearing about in 3 gun events that take place at pistol distances.

While that is a good skill to have, longer range stuff is needed.

Skunkabilly
March 10, 2003, 11:07 PM
Equipment rules in some divisions.

I can change my sights, trigger, guiderod, etc. to improve performance.

But I can't put on pearl grips?!?! What the heck?

faustulus
March 10, 2003, 11:17 PM
"Game" implies "utter waste of time".

I disagree, the first olympic games tested early warriors.
All work and no play...

Correia
March 10, 2003, 11:24 PM
Andrew, unfortunatly most of the country doesn't have access to any really good rifle ranges. Our local range that we use for competition is great except that we have one range where we can shoot out to 100 yards and another range where we can shoot out to 180-200. The other 8 bays are all 25-50 yards, not exactly big time rifle distance. But you do what you can. There are other places we can shoot where we can get WAY out there, but they suck for anything else.

And also there is plenty of evidence in support of close range rifle use. If you want to look at it as realistic rifle training I think that close and fast can be just as important as long and precise. And just because somebody maybe a good traditional rifle shot doesn't mean that they don't need some practice at closer quarter fighting. It is an entirely different skill set, and one that I think needs development just as much as long range. (not to knock long range, because if I have a choice I'm going to shoot at the bad guys from far away!) :)

bedlamite
March 10, 2003, 11:28 PM
I pretty much gave up on Cowboy shooting when I ran into Weshoot2's entire list at one match.

Jon Coppenbarger
March 10, 2003, 11:30 PM
the folks that think just because you have a match one day a month that you are stopping their right to shoot.

private range
they have 353 days
read the monthly or other news letters that are put out.


and the folks when I go out and practice that say you are not one of those shooters are you.

Steve Smith
March 11, 2003, 10:55 AM
Jon, I wonder where you get that BS? I know exactly where you get it, of course. I get it too...and I hate it.

WESHOOT2
March 11, 2003, 11:15 PM
INTRINSIC VALUE

Please consider the difference between golf, a 'game', and IDPA / IPSC.

I am proud to compete in these 'games' (do I REALLY have to join IDPA to compete in my second match?).

And to whomever thinks I disparage IDPA unfairly, tough. I have a marvelous sense of humor, whether 'you' get it or not.
A lttle lighthearted poking-of-fun is good for the soul, and hopefully one is humble enough not to get all torqued out of shape over the perception of goring the sacred -- yet still only a game -- ox.
Or something like that.

Enough! We go shooting!

faustulus
March 12, 2003, 03:31 AM
Please consider the difference between golf, a 'game', and IDPA / IPSC.

Match fees are cheaper? :)

Tacblack
March 12, 2003, 03:52 AM
I only have to things that really bug me about IDPA. The "get shot in the head while I reload, reload" also known as the tactical reload. I heard this was really started at Gunsite because of the sand and dirt getting in the mags when they were dropped. Is this true, does anyone know more about this. If so they are not "tactical" at all and are actually pushing the practice of an unsafe habit. I like a lot of people know quite a few Police and was in the academy, not one single person from anywhere has ever been told to keep the mags much less perform the "tactical reload". If this reload was started from a need in class and grew to be called a "tactical reload" it is named wrong and should be changed to "sand free reload".
The other which I can live with better because its part of the IDPA game is "because thats real life". Why wouldn't I carry a 7 shot wheel gun in real life. Why wouldn't I have a bull barrel to keep recoil and speed up 2nd shoot recovery in real life. I can play by the rules just drop the real life thing. In real life I don't down load my mags and run into a room where I know 3 guys are waiting to kill me. I think I am done here. I shot some IDPA and IPSC and what ever looks fun so I don't mean to offend anyone. Does anyone know where the "tactical reload" came from?

Andrew Wyatt
March 12, 2003, 02:48 PM
The tactical reload is indeed, tactical.


It's intended to be used in a lull in the fight where you have some extra time and are behind cover and have a partially full magazine, and is based on the idea that leaving behind a perfectly good magazine with ammo in it is bad.



as such, it's probably something that should not be done on the clock.

faustulus
March 13, 2003, 02:10 AM
Let me get this straight, I am supposed to grab a mag out of my gun, which takes longer, and store it for later use. Now later when I grab a mag thinking it is full only to find out it has two rounds left about the time I need another round. I am going to assume there is no lull, until my opponent is neutralized, then I am going to drop my mag a load a fresh one.
Tatical reloads got their start at gunsite or thunder ranch (forget which) dropping 1911 mags into fine sand plays havoc with the guns. Bill Wilson is beginning to believe his own PR.

Smoke
March 13, 2003, 01:16 PM
Skunk,
But I can't put on pearl grips?!?! What the heck?

"Only a pimp in a cheap New Orleans whore house would have pearl grips" Gen. George Patton


Sorry, couldn't resist....:D

Archie
March 13, 2003, 06:12 PM
Archie,
I bet you aren't a big baseball fan

The only thing that really bugs me about the shooters is the born-again converts. The guys who preach that the only way to do it is the "tatical way" I shoot to have fun. I don't take it too seriously, it is after all a game

No, I'm not a baseball fan.

I do have to agree with you about the super-zealous tactical types. I carry a gun for a living and I've never had to hold a knife between my teeth.

But in all instances where I drew a gun or might have drawn a gun, I didn't have any "prep time" to re-arrange the furniture or walk through the course of fire.

I'm with you, it ought to be fun. I get frustrated with the extreme artificiality. And the prima donnas.

Andrew Wyatt
March 14, 2003, 07:23 PM
Let me get this straight, I am supposed to grab a mag out of my gun, which takes longer, and store it for later use. Now later when I grab a mag thinking it is full only to find out it has two rounds left about the time I need another round. I am going to assume there is no lull, until my opponent is neutralized, then I am going to drop my mag a load a fresh one.


Well, considering that reaching for a magazine and not finding one at all is way worse than reaching for one and finding two rounds in it, i'd say the tactical reload is worthwhile, wouldn't you?
go to skul and learn how to do a tactical reload and how it's used before you complain about it being useless.

charleym3
March 14, 2003, 08:08 PM
The simple way to solve this problem is to shoot a real, oops, I mean Wheel, gun. :uhoh:

faustulus
March 14, 2003, 08:20 PM
go to skul and learn how to do a tactical reload and how it's used before you complain about it being useless.
Which school would that be? None of the police academies I know use it. FBI academy doesn't use it. I don't like it but I realize it is part of the game, I just get ticked when some gunstore commando insists it is the "tatical" way.

I do have to agree with you about the super-zealous tactical types. I carry a gun for a living and I've never had to hold a knife between my teeth.

:)

The simple way to solve this problem is to shoot a real, oops, I mean Wheel, gun.

I plan on it, just not a 627 .357 because "in the real world no one would carry an 8 shot revolver. :)

Andrew Wyatt
March 14, 2003, 10:13 PM
Which school would that be? None of the police academies I know use it. FBI academy doesn't use it. I don't like it but I realize it is part of the game, I just get ticked when some gunstore commando insists it is the "tatical" way.


IIRC, Gunsite, Thunder ranch, Options for personal security, and the local PD all teach the tactical reload.


FBI does, too.


I don't think it should be every reload, and i don't think it should be stressed to the exclusion of the speed, or empty magazine reload.

faustulus
March 16, 2003, 07:27 PM
Gunsite, Thunder ranch,
as I said above, one of these places originated the idea.

FBI does, too.

Not the last I checked.

I am not saying they don't have their place, I am just saying they don't have their place in a gunfight.

Andrew Wyatt
March 16, 2003, 11:36 PM
I am not saying they don't have their place, I am just saying they don't have their place in a gunfight.



The Tactical, or partial magazine reload isn't used when you're actively engaged, so no, it doesn't have a place in the middle of a gunfight.

Shaughn Leayme
March 22, 2003, 01:04 PM
I don't like this level playing field concept, such as down loading a magazine or cylinder.

If your magazine or cylinder capacity is 6,7,8, 10, 15 or 20 plus and this is how you normally carry your weapon of choice, then this is how it should be used in the competition.

Don't allow walk thru's on every stage, everyone does 1 or 2 stages cold and slightly change the course of fire between shooters, to prevent anyone from tipping off another.

This would require the competitor to think and improvise, instead of choreographing it. Targets should be wearing clothing to conceal scoring zones and have props to help determine GG's from BG's or in addition to clothing to make the competitior think and determine if this is a GG or BG.

Tactical reload with or with out retention, should be up to the shooter and if you are in a cold stage, then you will not know if you need that ammunition and since you don't know what is up ahead, the question is do you continue with what ammunition is currently in the pistol and hope for another point to reload, dump the magazine and reload or retain and reload.

That would make it interesting, it would also require a fair bit of thought by the course designer, but since it is only 1 or 2 stages it should be doable.


My opinion and mine alone :D

Navy joe
March 22, 2003, 08:54 PM
I got a gripe... I hear IPSC is just "golf with guns" alot. The other day I realized to my chagrin that it isn't. Were it golf with guns there would be a hot chick driving a beer cart. I feel cheated.

Local IDPA bunch is good people. However, the org overall has issues. The requirement to join sours new shooters, occasional shooters, and other sport shooters. We encourage folks to join USPSA, but it sure isn't mandatory. No IDPA guy shooting a Wilson gun should call an IPSC guy a "gamer" for showing up with a STI and beating them soundly. Unless they are shooting what they carry with the clothes they carry in I don't want to hear how tactically delicious they are. I shoot IPSC with guns I carry, it is not my fault some of them hold 17+ rounds.

So in conclusion I say, ignore the weather, mud, bugs, gamers, blamers, gripers, whiners, and back pain. Stop trying to look for every little way to cheat up a stage. Just shut up and shoot.

faustulus
March 22, 2003, 11:13 PM
Were it golf with guns there would be a hot chick driving a beer cart. I feel cheated.

What? Your club doesn't have a beer chick? Man do you need a better club.:)

It seems there are a lot of guys in IDPA who complain that someone is 'gaming' the game. I never understood that but... Of course these are the guys who usually wear the kydex holster that holds the gun three inches out from the body.

Most of the clubs I go back to are because there are shooters there who love to shoot, and don't care which game they are playing. Oh and the beer chick. :)

Archer
March 23, 2003, 11:57 AM
Were it golf with guns there would be a hot chick driving a beer cart. I feel cheated.

...Which, oddly enough, brings the thread full circle.

John L., who started this thread, helps run IDPA matches in Utah (like one at the FARM yesterday, six stages of IDPA fun in the sun and 65 degrees- it was niiiiice).

But the FARM is in the middle of Happy Valley (Provo area). No beer carts ANYWHERE in Happy Valley... In fact, as far as I can tell, NO BEER in Happy Valley.

Just as well, the prospect of some of these guys with a beer AND a gun is too much to contemplate...:D


Let's remember it's just a GAME. Everyone has their reasons for playing. Mine are summed up pretty well in this comment from my friend Ed Head in a recent conversation about this very subject...

I think competing, whether it is actually "practical" (whatever that means) or not, is valuable. At the very least you learn to handle stress, which leads to self control, which leads to being in control of your environment. At best, you learn to control your weapon under all circumstances and this results in the confidence to allow you to remain calm, in control, and master your environment and your emotions.


Sums it up pretty well, I think.

The bonus is I get to shoot and have fun with some friendly and talented people, like John L.

Wakal
March 24, 2003, 02:01 PM
I've never seen a "beer girl" on the range, but the Swedish Bikini Team are some pretty tough IPSC shooters...I guess in IPSC, the girls shoot too ;)

http://www.sportshooter.com/events/swedishbikinis.htm



Alex

WESHOOT2
March 29, 2003, 11:56 AM
As long as you shoot some kind of gun-thing who cares?

Unless there is 'shooting back' it is all just 'games' (except "Cowboy" -- that's 'dress-up' :neener: ).


Yeeehaw!

JackStraw
May 11, 2003, 02:59 PM
Range Lawyers are scum.

I'll remember that.

But the FARM is in the middle of Happy Valley (Provo area). No beer carts ANYWHERE in Happy Valley... In fact, as far as I can tell, NO BEER in Happy Valley.

What do you think were doing the the truck between stages...Sorry we didn't invite ya...we were afraid you would drink all our beer.

mrming
May 18, 2003, 04:38 PM
I just want to see a 3-gun zombie match.

Sunray
May 19, 2003, 04:05 AM
Considering that if you need a handgun to defend yourself, you're already in deep, deep, do-do, they're both big kid games. Mind you, I've never understood this, you wouldn't carry a comped pistol for CWW stuff. Why not?
Games are supposed to be fun. That's why we call them games. If any course of fire isn't fun and challeging, you won't get shooters to come out and play. In any case, competitions are not, and never will be, training for real life situations. Real life has a habit of not having rules of engagement, major or minor calibres or a timer that tells you when to start shooting.
See if you can set up a 'Hogan's Alley'. No timers. No warning. Nada. Cost a fortune, I would think. Except that shooters are generally very creative people. So it's not a question of can it be done. It's a question of how it can be done? And figure out how a carbine, rifle or shotgun could be used for the same course of fire. That'd be just a range limitation. Any handgun would do.

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