Eratic EJECTION


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ken grant
December 20, 2004, 04:43 PM
Tuner,finally took the Norinky Compact to the range and gave it a workout.
Had no last round FTE but did have brass scattered all over the place.
some forward,some back and some laying right under the pistol at my feet.
While I was picking up the brass,I noticed dents in the empty brass. The dents were about 2/3 of the way up the case from the rear. The dents ran from about 1 o'clock to about 2:30 (extractor being 3 o'clock and ejector being 9 o'clock)
I know that they are being hit by the slide and most likely when it is returning to battery( should explain why the brass is scattered everywhere.
I know this does not hurt the brass for reloading,but I would like to fix it if possible.

MERRY CHRISTMAS AND HAPPY NEW YEAR TO YOU,KELIE AND THE PUPS(big pups as well as the yorkie)
If I was very P.C., would just wish you happy holiday's :D

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1911Tuner
December 20, 2004, 04:51 PM
Howdy ken...Sounds like it could be a little too much recoil spring. If you've got a dial caliper handy, measure the wire diameter and get back to me.

Merry Christmas right back atcha!

ken grant
December 20, 2004, 05:13 PM
Dia.= .045 Turns=23 Stk. spring

1911Tuner
December 20, 2004, 05:19 PM
'Bout an 18-pounder...A bit much, but it oughta do better than that. Still sounds like too much spring for the ammo.

Other possibilities:

Erratic pressures/velocities. (You're not still usin' that funky reloaded stuff are ya?) Loose ejector...Weak, broken, or inconsistent grip...Lightweight, screamin' bullets (185-grain Plus P) Varying rim diameters causing the rim to get into a bind with the extractor hook and ejector....Shock buffer in the gun.
Commanders generally don't do well with buffs.

Standin' by...

ken grant
December 20, 2004, 05:38 PM
Going to test again tomorrow with Fed. 230 match ammo. This test was with MFS 230 gr.----Both match and +P.
No loose ejector---good grip---
Will get back with you after I run the Fed. thru it

ken grant
December 20, 2004, 05:43 PM
Also I think I will run some of my loads thru it as well.
230 Gr. coated cast bullets with 5.7 W231, They seem to work well in my others

1911Tuner
December 20, 2004, 05:48 PM
If it's got a buffer in it...take it out for the test.

ken grant
December 20, 2004, 05:50 PM
no buffers on anything I own!!!!! Don't even have shocks on my cars or truck! :neener:

1911Tuner
December 20, 2004, 06:52 PM
Good man! One thing...Match ammo is usually downloaded a bit. 230 RN match runs to about 750-775 fps in most of my pistols, while straight PMC hits
around 830-840. I'm thinkin' that the small radius on that firing pin stop is bleedin' off enough slide momentum that the recoil spring needs to come down a notch. Take a pair of side-cutters to the range next trip. Clip one coil off the spring and see if it gets better and report back...

Standin' by...

ExMachina
December 22, 2004, 11:56 AM
Tuner, so 18# is too much for a compact 1911? If so, perhaps this is the at the root of MY ejection problems as well?? I'm currently running a 22# Wolfe w/ erratic ejection (but no other problems) using 230 and 200 gr handloads.

What's the downside to reducing my recoil spring weight? How low can I go w/o damaging the frame (over the long term)?

-ExM

1911Tuner
December 22, 2004, 12:23 PM
Howdy Ex-Machina,

It's possible. My formula for a Commander-length gun is a standard Wolff 16-pound spring, (32 turns) cut down to 24 turns...checked for coil bind and trimmed as necesary. This provides about 17 pounds of tension at full compression..which is a little more than an OEM spring, but a little less
than a straight 18-pound replacement.

Officer's Model/Defender class of pistols use a completely different spring,
in that the coils are spaced wider apart to give full-length tension without coil bind...and you'll need to find a different rating that's compatible with that particular pistol design.

The Colt 1991-A1 Compact that I have on the bench has an outer spring with .042 wire diameter and 15 turns...but the spacing is about 20% wider
than a GM or Commander spring. .042 wire diameter on a 32-turn spring
tests at about 14 pounds...The one in this pistol is probably about 18 without the inner spring.

You may need to play with the extractor tension and ejector geometry
to get the brass clear of the port at the right time...Sometimes the compact guns can be a headache on the ejection.

Bill Z
December 22, 2004, 12:30 PM
18 is standard on a commander size while 22 is standard on an officers size. 'Compact' in Kimber-speak is officers size, but not sure what it is in the Nork.

Is your extractor clocking?

Machina, which 'Compact' do you have. Does it have the dual springs or single? I normally replace the officers dual springs with Wolff single springs. The duals have a tendancy to bind and can cuase problems also.
Another thing to consider on compacts is that the slide mass is greatly reduced from the original design, that's one of the resons for the heavy recoil springs. The problem is that they normally only run well with at the minimum factory standard ammo or hotter. Do you notice an imporvement when you run +p's by chance?

Bill Z
December 22, 2004, 12:31 PM
Darn Tuner, posting at the same time again, I shoulda had another cup first.

ExMachina
December 22, 2004, 06:46 PM
Thanks guys and yes, the Compact in my case is a Kimber.

About 50% of my ejection seems to go dramatically to the front (like the case is being hit by the slide on the way forward). However, the last 3 or 4 rounds in the magazine send their brass more off to the side. Just was curious if my recoil spring might have been to blame (since I've already played w/ the ejector and the extractor)

THis thread caught my attention since ken seems to be having a very similar problem to my own.

ken, do you notice any pattern to you ejection? Like does the brass go in one direction with a particular magazine or when there are certain number of rounds left in the mag?

1911Tuner
December 22, 2004, 08:08 PM
Insufficient extractor tension will aid and abet erratic ejection...So will a hook the goes too deep in the extractor groove. If you have one of those New and Improved external extractors...I don't know what to tell ya except to get a new spring for it. Might wanna get a new extractor too. Shorten the hook about .003 inch to give it less "bite" on the rim and see what happens. be careful to keep it square and straight. Draw it across a stone sideways.
Lughtly break the bottom corner at a 45 degree angle.

Re-shoot the gun one-handed with a loose grip. If the problem gets worse or more frequent, the gun is over sprung. if it gets better or less frequent, it's
under sprung.

Erratic ejection can be tough to nail down sometimes...Doin' it blind makes it even tougher. Pistols with slides shorter than Commander-length usually take
a lot of trial and error...beyond that required for 5-inch guns...and even some Commanders can be downright ornery.

Luck and patience tio ya, mah fren.

ken grant
December 23, 2004, 09:47 AM
I didn't notice any pattern to the way the cases were ejected. I ran 14 mags. of reloads(230 gr. castbullets---5.7 gr. W231) and one mag. of MFS 230FMJ.
The only pattern I could come up with is most went to my right about 90 Deg. A few went behind me to the right. Very few went to my right front.Some wound up right under the pistol(seemed to come out weak) and 3 or 4 wacked me!
Had lots of dented brass,but also had a lot that was not dented.
Will try to play with the recoil springs next trip out.
Did not have any failures at all!!!!!!
Tuner fixed my FTE problems :D :p

1911Tuner
December 23, 2004, 09:02 PM
Hmmmm...Ken, it almost sounds like you could use a little more tension on the extractor, but I'm still thinkin' that the spring is a little stout. When we test-fired the gun that day, I held it loose in one hand and the empties kicked out
letter-perfect at 2 O'Clock at 90 degrees the the gun. Odd...

Try crankin' in a little more tension and make sure the gun will still the top round from a full mag feed by hand with the recoil spring plug out. Push the slide to battery briskly, but not forcefully, and do the tension droop test.

We may need to crank up the tension and bring the barrel down a little lower in the frame when it links down.

Wish we'd had enough time to shoot a couple boxes of ammo through it that day.

Standin' by...

stans
December 24, 2004, 08:11 AM
Some wound up right under the pistol(seemed to come out weak)

That sounds like a little too much recoil spring for the ammo being fired. The recoil spring is slowing the slide too quickly and by the time the case rim hits the ejector it is going slow enough that the case barely pops out from under the extractor.

1911Tuner
December 24, 2004, 12:11 PM
Another point in the effect that the extractor has on ejection is that...
with barely enough tension to hold the case, weak tension tends to let the case "roll" with the punch when it hits the ejector instead of getting a solid
smack. The case pivots sideways, and the effect isn't unlike a combination of
the ejector being too short and having a limp-grip on the gun. If the extractor holds the case firmly on the breechface until it's forced to turn it loose, the ejection is stronger.

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