[longeyes]

From Bush's press conference today:

Today's press conference.

QUESTION: Mr. President, since early in your first term you've talked about immigration reform. But yet people in
your own party on the hill seem opposed to this idea and you've got an opposition, even on the other side.

Do you plan to expend some of your political capital this time to see this through?

BUSH: Yes, I appreciate that question.

First of all, welcome. I'd like to welcome all the new faces -- some prettier than others, I might add. But...

(LAUGHTER)

Yes, I intend to work with members of Congress to get something done. I think this is an issue that will make it
easier for us to enforce our borders.

And I believe it's an issue that will show the -- if when we get it right, the compassion and heart of the American
people.

And no question, it's a tough issue, just like some of the other issues we're taking on. But my job is to confront tough
issues. And to ask Congress to work together to confront tough issues.

Now, let me talk about the immigration issue.

First we want our Border Patrol agents chasing crooks and thieves and drug runners and terrorists, not
good-hearted people who are coming here to work. And, therefore, it makes sense to allow the good-hearted
people who are coming here to do jobs that Americans won't do a legal way to do so. And providing that legal
avenue, it takes the pressure off the border.

Now, we need to make sure the border is modern and we need to upgrade our Border Patrol. But if we expect the
Border Patrol to be able to enforce a long border, particularly in the south -- and the north, for that matter -- we
ought to have a system that recognizes people are coming here to do jobs that Americans will not do. And there
ought to be a legal way for them to do so.

To me that, is -- and not only that, but once the person is here, if he or she feels like he or she needs to go back to
see their family, to the country of origin, they should be able to do so within a prescribed -- the card and the permit
would last for a prescribed period of time.

It's a compassionate way to treat people who come to our country. It recognizes the reality of the world in which we
live. There are some jobs in America that Americans won't do and others are willing to do.

Now, one of the important aspects of my vision is that this is not automatic citizenship. The American people must
understand that, that if somebody who is here working wants to be a citizen, they can get in line like those who have
been here legally and have been working to become a citizenship (sic) in a legal manner.

And this is a very important issue, and I look forward to working with members of Congress. I fully understand the
politics of immigration reform. I mean, I was the governor of Texas, right there on the front lines of border politics.
You know, I know what it means to have mothers and fathers come to my state and across the border of my state
to work.

Family values do not stop at the Rio Grande river, is what I used to tell the people of my state.

People are coming to put food on the table. They're doing jobs Americans will not do. And to me, it makes sense
for us to recognize that reality and to help those who are needing to enforce our borders, legalize the process of
people doing jobs Americans won't do, take the pressure off of employers so they're not having to rely upon false
I.D.s, cut out the coyotes who are the smugglers of these people, putting them in the back of tractor-trailers in the
middle of August in Texas, allowing people to suffocate in the back of the truck, stop the process of people feeling
like they got to walk miles across desert in Arizona and Texas in order just to feed their family, and they find them
dead out there, you know.

I mean, this is a system that can be much better.

And I'm passionate on it because the nature of this country is one that is good-hearted and compassionate. Our
people are compassionate.

The system we have today is not a compassionate system. It's not working. And as a result, the country is less
secure than it could be with a rational system.

[R.H. Lee]

Translation: "Corporations need cheap labor to increase profits and at the same time I get to pander to the multicultural diversity leftists. It's a win-win".

[longeyes]

When it comes to illegal immigration, Bush is farther into NeverLand than Michael Jackson. He's seeing the problem he wants to see, not as it is.

I don't know about anyone else, but I am fed up with being lectured to about "compassion." This is pure arrogance on his part. If this is Bush's concept of "Christian Economics" I want no part of it.

He prattles about reforming Social Security but failed to mention "Totalization," which includes Mexican nationals who have worked here illegally in the system and goes so far as to count work done in Mexico toward figuring out the amount of their stupid.

[Wildalaska]

Bravo Dubya!

WildletsdiscusstherascistoriginofimmigrationlawsAlaska

[Ryder]

A lot of American Teenagers do seasonal labor around here. Picking apples, bailing hay, hoe the rows, pickin corn, painting, roofing.. I think you get the idea. I sure had my share of calouses growing up.

Is Mr High and mighty saying that he thinks the people in the SW are just a bunch or worthless lazy good for nothing slobs? I guess he would know since that's where he is from. I myself wouldn't know about that so I'll just have to take his word for it.

Take notice... Lot's of people won't associate with those having such a reputation... Around here anyway.

[Sindawe]

WildletsdiscusstherascistoriginofimmigrationlawsAlaska

Yes, lets.

Lets also discuss being verbally accosted, spat apon and physically attacked in the land of one's birth simply becuase one's skin color is different and one does not speak the language of the illegal newcomers.

Lets also discuss being unable to find that so critical first job because the illegal newcomers will work cheaper, work longer hours, and will not complain when they are treated like dirt.

Lets also discuss the wildlands of one's nation being turned into stinking garbage dumps with all the trash, junk and sewage from the illegal newcomers sneaking across the borders.

Lets also discuss the collapse of the health and education infrastructure of one's nation due to the ever increasing demands of the ever increasing numbers of illegal newcomers.

Lets also discuss the documented resurgence of communicable diseases like TB, viral hepatitis and leprosy due to the ever increasing numbers of illegal newcomers.

Yes, lets discuss.... :cuss: :cuss: :cuss:

[R.H. Lee]

Well said, Sindawe
http://www.unr.nevada.edu/~jsalls/NNMC/applause.gif

[brian roberts]

i respectfully submit, Mr. President, there are MANY Americans who WILL DO those jobs "that Americans just won't do", if they didn't have to pay $65 dollars in TAXES for a $50 paycheck. :fire: or, i'll be more realistic, $30 in taxes for a $50 paycheck. :rolleyes: $hit!!, if we can send about $25 MILLION A DAY!!!! to israel, why can't things be better over here?? many of those "poor israelis" live at the "poverty level" of $934 per month. hell, i know people who would be ROLLING IN CASH at $934 per month, Mr. President!!!! how about gettin'
off y'rass & scalin' back on the outward bound cashflow???? :scrutiny: at $25M a day, there are a helluva lot of kids that could learn TO READ, HERE IN THIS COUNTRY, :uhoh: Mr. PREZZ. there was one of these "feel-good shows" on PBS one night. it showed how Palestinian & israeli children got together, & went to camp, how they went swimming, how they went bird-watching, neat huh?? guess what they whipped out to watch th' birdies with??? they had LEICA spotting scopes!!! :what: yeah, & not one or two, ALL of 'em, variable power, too; there were about 6 or 7!!! :eek: nex' time y'get to the range, think about how nice a LEICA spotter would be. :barf:

[Wildalaska]

"Lets also discuss being verbally accosted, spat apon and robbed in the land of one's birth simply becuase one's social backdround is different and one does not speak the language of the hordes of newcomers. Lets talk about crime and gangs

Lets also discuss being unable to find that so critical first job because the newcomers will work cheaper, work longer hours, and will not complain when they are treated like dirt and exploited.

Lets also discuss the cities of one's nation being turned into stinking garbage dumps with all the trash, junk and sewage from the newcomers turning our neighborhhods into Ghettoes

Lets also discuss the collapse of the health and education infrastructure of one's nation due to the ever increasing demands of the ever increasing numbers of newcomers.

Lets also discuss the documented resurgence of communicable diseases like TB, viral hepatitis and leprosy due to the ever increasing numbers of newcomers."

Irish, 1840s-60s, Jews Italians and Chinese 1870s-1920

WildweneedasaneimmigrationpolicyAlaska

[beerslurpy]

Get rid of income tax, get rid of minimum wage, no more handouts for anyone, including no more free education or health care. Replace it with a national sales tax. Trim back the government to compensate.

If people still want to sneak across the border for that, let them. Less handouts = less freeloading.

We also need an amendment that makes it so that people born in this country arent legal citizens unless they are born of legal residents. The 14th amendment definition of citizenship was great for solving the slaves = citizens problem, but it is not helping in the fight against illegal immigration.

[wingman]

People are coming to put food on the table. They're doing jobs Americans will not do.

If we have people who wont do these jobs then in time we will lose our
country, period. The idea that by having a work program will stop
illegal immigration is silly in fact if anything it will increase illegals.

At some point the idea of importing workers with a 4th grade education
and exporting manufacturing jobs to third world countries will break
our economy. Even Hillary Clinton knows this will be a major issue in
the next election and if the republican party goes forward with this
idea may turn a lot of red voters into blue.

This "is not" a race issue it is a numbers problem and I suggest all
write there congress person and express an opinion. :banghead:

[Kruzr]

Irish, 1840s-60s, Jews Italians and Chinese 1870s-1920

All of whom came to this country through legal means, had to learn english (no "english as a second language" in schools), had to find gainful employment to make a new life here, (not send their money back home), and longed to become citizens.

[Sindawe]

Wildalaska,

If you are going to quote me, I request that you to it VERBATIM and refrain from adding you your own coloring and editing to the statements you then purport to be mine. :fire:

Irish, 1840s-60s, Jews Italians and Chinese 1870s-1920

All of which came into to this country and were screened via the means of the day. A good number of which were admitted, a few were turned back. Your comparison of the situation with the illegal aliens of today to the immigrants of yesterday has as much validity as comparing apples to cyclotrons.

WildweneedasaneimmigrationpolicyAlaska

NO argument there, but what President Bush has proposed is not such.

[Preacherman]

I'm afraid I'm with WildAlaska on this one - we do need a sane immigration policy.

1. We have a HUGE problem with illegal immigrants, which is NOT going to go away.

2. The cost of rounding up and expelling all illegal immigrants would be so high that it's a practical impossibility. If you figure even the lowest possible cost - say $500 per person for everything, including LE time, jail accommodation, court process, transport, etc. - with well over 10 million illegal immigrants, that comes to a minimum of $50,000,000,000 (that's fifty BILLION dollars!!!). A more realistic cost estimate would be four to five times that figure. Ain't no way we can afford that.

3. We cannot, repeat, CANNOT seal our borders. They're too long and too porous. To do it, we'd have to spend hundreds of billions of dollars, first on the up-front costs of fences, infrastructure, etc., and then on maintaining those defences AND providing new ones as the smugglers get more innovative.

4. Equally, we can't afford to go on having illegal immigrants leech our social structures dry of funds, resources, etc. Something has to be done to stop it.

So, President Bush has come up with his plan. If you don't like it, that's fine: there are parts of it that I don't like very much. However, it's then incumbent on the plan's opponents to come up with something better - something affordable, practical, effective, efficient, and worthwhile. I've heard many people opposing the President's plan, but very few, if any, of them have come up with an alternative...

[Sindawe]

Preacherman,

Do you recall what happened in the 1980s after then President Reagan proposed and obtained an amnesty period for the then illegal aliens in this nation? IIRC, illegal border crossing surged. Additionally, what occured when President Bush first proposed his Guest Worker program? Illegal border crossings surged again, and when queried as to the reason for crossing, those same illegal aliens replied that it was the "amnesty" program that President Bush had proposed.

To attempt to address your points in turn:

1. Yes, we do. However, in my opion the proposed actions by the central .gov will do nothing the alleviate the problem.

2. Then let us begin by no longer providing services to those illegal aliens beyond basic emergency care. Emergency care being "OH NO! HE'S BLEEDING OUT NOW!" no "Ohhh...the baby has the sniffles, take him to the hospital". No pay, no service.

3. Hmmm... I see that Israel is building a fence to keep out the homicide bombers from their country. Surely we as a nation could afford an electrified chain link fence and landmines to seal our southern border. We spend billions on foreign aid each year. Perhaps its time to tell Egypt and Israel that Uncle Suger is tapped out and attend to our own nation for a while.

4. We already have a rather generous immigration program, both for those who wish to become part of our culture, and for those who wish to be educated and work here for awhile. I've presented some additions suggestions. I'm willing to listen and discuss other ideas.

[Nehemiah Scudder]

I don't think that the answer is anything we (as a people) would like very much.


Because, it involves ID. Which means nationalizing the driver's licence standards, or the licence itself. And you'll have to show it a lot more.

Edited to add:

If you wanted to be serious about it. Start cracking down on the businesses that hire illegals.

[Standing Wolf]

First we want our Border Patrol agents chasing crooks and thieves and drug runners and terrorists, not good-hearted people who are coming here to work.

Those so-called "good hearted people" are felons one and all.

That kind of myopia is one of the many reasons I didn't vote for Bush this past November.

[Art Eatman]

"The members of a board of directors of any corporation which hires illegal aliens shall be subject to criminal prosecution." And, "Any person hiring an illegal alien shall be subject to criminal prosecution."

"No illegal alien shall be eligible for any government services beyond emergency medical care."

We already have the setup for a national ID card, right? That's already been enacted into law in the uniform driver's license requirements deal. Easy enough to prove you're a citizen, when seeking employment.

If causing a fairly rapid decrease in the numbers of illegal aliens in this country is desired, the above laws would be necessary.

If such laws are not passed, TPTB don't have serious views as to the net economic losses created by illegal aliens.

Doesn't matter what I like or what Wild Alaska likes, or Bush or anybody else. Until there are penalties on the users/exploiters of illegals, they'll keep coming. If those with the power don't get Draconian to this degree, they're not serious about taking useful action.

I'm just pointing out what I believe is factual...

Art

[Wildalaska]

All of whom came to this country through legal means, had to learn english (no "english as a second language" in schools), had to find gainful employment to make a new life here, (not send their money back home), and longed to become citizens.

There was no "legal means" at the time..it was a free for all, ya made it on shore ya stayed...

And many many immigrants never learned more that a few words of broken english...like my greatgrandmother...their kids did...equally, they all sent $$ back to the old country.....

If you are going to quote me, I request that you to it VERBATIM and refrain from adding you your own coloring and editing to the statements you then purport to be mine.

Dude, lighten up the point was not to quote ya, but to show ya how close yopur comments are to the same old anti immigrant litany that has been a shame on our shores for 150 years....

All of which came into to this country and were screened via the means of the day. A good number of which were admitted, a few were turned back. Your comparison of the situation with the illegal aliens of today to the immigrants of yesterday has as much validity as comparing apples to cyclotrons.

Sorry my friend you simply are wrong. The only screenign were for some diseases, and quarantine allowed even those to enter...virtually NO ONE was sent back...


WildchildofimmigrantsAlaska

[Nehemiah Scudder]

Technically, illegal aliens aren't eligable for any govt. services.

If they recieve them, it's usually an account of children born in America. They'd recieve any money, services, etc. for use for the children.

[R.H. Lee]

Irish, 1840s-60s, Jews Italians and Chinese 1870s-1920
Who learned to speak the language and became Americans, not parasitic occupants of a polyglot boardinghouse demanding freebie handouts and bilingual everything. I'm the child of an immigrant also, WA, 1st generation. :)

[Kruzr]

There was no "legal means" at the time..it was a free for all, ya made it on shore ya stayed...
My grandparents who had to go through Ellis Island wouldn't agree. You just couldn't jump off the ship and swim to Manhattan.

[Preacherman]

Let me clarify that I'm all in favor of a sane, effective immigration policy. I am an immigrant (and next year, please God, a citizen), and I count myself extremely fortunate to be living in the USA. It's the finest place in the world, IMHO.

I had to jump through all sorts of hoops to get here legally, and by the time I am admitted to citizenship, I estimate the total outlay will be several thousand dollars in fees, legal costs, etc., plus over 8 years of waiting. I don't mind this, and I am prepared to put in the time and money involved.

I would like to see a more streamlined immigration process, where potential "good citizens" are given a fast track (i.e. those with something to offer to America, rather than those who want to gain something from America). I think if this were done, there would be a lot more productive citizens here!

[Wildalaska]

Who learned to speak the language and became Americans, not parasitic occupants of a polyglot boardinghouse demanding freebie handouts and bilingual everything.

Wrong again...IIRC, the youthful immigrants (kids, teeangers) did pretty well in English, the older ones did not....witness the number of Yiddish and Italian newspapers in NY, Yiddish theatre. etc..Both my paternal grandparents (born here in 1890s) were bilingual, Yiddish and English.

As to freebie handouts....considering that the social welfare net was minimal, there were still plenty of handouts at the time. A good read is "The Way we Lived" by Irving Howe (for the Jewish Experience) as well as Jacob Riis....

My grandparents who had to go through Ellis Island wouldn't agree. You just couldn't jump off the ship and swim to Manhattan.

Ellis Island was late in the era...earlier they just dumped em on the dock...as to Ellis, IIRC, 99% of immigrants landing there stayed here.....

WildoneofmyareasofexpertiseAlaska

[longeyes]

All very good points so far.

I admit when I heard Bush's remarks today my first thought was "Twelve-Step Program!" I think there is an element of outright mania in what Bush is promoting. It comes out in his repetition of the same words and phrases: "goodhearted," "compassion." I don't think the man has thought this all through--or wants to. He needs to reason his way through the implications of these policies and also find some "compassion" for the people who will end up paying the freight. He'd better start listening and realizing that the majority of this nation does not agree with him on this subject and he has NO "political capital" to expend on this. Maybe what bothers me, aside from the arrogance I detect in his words, is that it may all just be a hypocritical act, one grand payback of his rich supporters who thrive on exploitable labor.

He keeps mentioning jobs no American wants. Does that mean the construction industry, meatpacking, hotels and restaurants, the janitorial trade, light industry, the mechanics industry, gardening...? The list goes on and on. It's about a lot more than migrant farmworkers these days.

I voted for the man but feared he would pull something like this rather than take advantage of the great opportunity he's been given to right this ship of State before it founders utterly.

[Nehemiah Scudder]

Welcome to the Left longeyes.

It's a crappy lot most of the time, but somebody's gotta do it!

[Sindawe]

Dude, lighten up the point was not to quote ya, but to show ya how close yopur comments are to the same old anti immigrant litany that has been a shame on our shores for 150 years....

Then my friend, your presentation was amateurish and sloppy, since your presentation reads as a quoting of my words, with out a clarification of your intent at comparison to the anti-immigrant xenophobes of the past. I expected better from you Wildalaska.

Sorry my friend you simply are wrong. The only screenign were for some diseases, and quarantine allowed even those to enter...virtually NO ONE was sent back...

Sorry dude, in this case I think the statistics show that you are the one in errors. In example, have a gander at this page from the Statistic Review of Immigration 1820 - 1910, presented to the 61st Congress, 3rd Session 1910-1911 which I obtained here http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/immigration-statistics.htm (big download, not for dial up)

http://indra.net/~kstager/pics/Debarred.jpg

This is NOT virtually no one. Looking at the final year, 1910, 24,270 out of 1, 041,510 were debarred from entry. Roughly 2.3%. True, the days of Ellis Island were later in that wave of immigration. I will have to see if similar statistics are available for earlier time periods.

As to freebie handouts....considering that the social welfare net was minimal, there were still plenty of handouts at the time.

And IIRC, the hand outs were from PRIVATE charitable organizations, not extracted from the populace via taxes taken at the point of a gun by the central .gov. I'll have to dig for the exact percentage comparisons of .gov vs. private handouts, but I wager its a good deal more slanted to the former than the latter these days. (How about a box of .308 Winchester FMJ?)

The list goes on and on. It's about a lot more than migrant farmworkers these days.

Yes, it is. Its about La Raza racists, the practice of female circumcision, ignoring the limits on taking of fish and other game animals and a host of other topics. And in my opinion, it comes down to the continuation of OUR culture, one of general (and improving) acceptance of the benefits that legitimate immigration brings to our American world view, a history of individual liberty and equal opportunity for success (and failure) for all.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm gonna go chill, have a glass of sake and a bowl of lamb & lentil couscous.

[Ezekiel]

Normally I would try hard, so very hard, to be civil, kind and understanding. In all seriousness, opinions -- everyone's -- are valuable to a degree. I've had some scotch, however, and here (respectfully) is my rub:

If your [using the "global we"] ancestors did not meet the Mayflower from the shore, your start came through immigration. So-called "legalized" immigration did not exist for centuries. To deny its ongoing ocurrence now is to show up uninvited at a party, drink all the metaphorical beer, and then declare the party "over" when new arrivals arrive. In sum it's the utmost in hypocrisy.

To blame "cheap labor" for the ills of our society is just [I]dead wrong. The overall problem in this issue is the entitlement of the American worker who demands $10 hourly with a GED! As the comedian Paul Rodriguez said, "Like you want to work at f***ing Denny's". If our underclass -- every society has them -- would work as opposed to complain, this would not be an issue.

That being said, I readily admit to bias. I am an American Indian, Spanish-speaking, with an MPA and a "good job". I purposely foreswore all the handouts available to me in order to self-righteously say the things I stated above. I am not perfect, I am far, far, far from it: but I adjusted to my environment and flourish on the newfound economic frontier by my own rules. I cannot judge an immigrant, as the proverbial sons of immigrants typically do, for attempting to do so by actually working for a dollar.

Is Mr High and mighty saying that he thinks the people in the SW are just a bunch or worthless lazy good for nothing slobs?

I realize this wasn't directed at me, but I will answer it. "No, I do not think people in the Southwest are lazy, good-for-nothing slobs, I think most Americans, in fact, are such." And yes, especially for my culture, I am "high and mighty". That's not a sin. Being a hypocrite, however...

I invite open and honest debate, friends!

Thanks,

Ezekiel

[modifiedbrowning]

Bush's plan sounds like the wonderful Gastarbeiter scheme of Germany back in the '70's. Basically, importing Turks to do the jobs "germans don't want to do".

[Waitone]

The key to gaining control over who is already in country is WORKPLACE ENFORCEMENT. Bust a few corporate types for hiring criminal aliens and life will get dicey for those here illegally. I do not buy the argument there are to many criminal aliens (CA's) to do anything about it. Make like rough enough and they will leave just like they came.

As a Christian I am embarrassed (?sp) by Bush's compassionate horse-pucky. His brand of theology may focus on compassion but mine don't.

I am equally put off my his seemingly profound ignorance of economics. Yes we need immigration. Yes we need people to assume the bottom rung of the economic ladder. Yes the birth dirth will adversely affect or social ponzi schemes. Yes to all that free market-speak. What he will not acknowledge is American will not take some jobs AT THE FREAKIN' LABOR RATE SIMPLY BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING IN THE POCKET AT THE END OF THE DAY. The cost of the federal and state governments is far too high for Americans to tolerate. So our president imports low end labor INSTEAD OF REDUCING THE FREAKIN' COST OF GOVERNMENT.

Bush is wrong and thankfully there are increasing congressional vermin think he is wrong. He has no political capital on this issue. There is only a downside. If we have to import foreign workers because they work cheap, someone had better figure out we all need to work cheaper to compete. So how 'bout reducing the freakin' cost of government?

This guy is going to slip the US the weenie. :banghead: :fire: :cuss:

[wingman]

The High Cost of Illegal Immigration
Illegals Cost Feds $10 Billion a Year; Amnesty Would Nearly Triple Cost


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MND NEWSWIRE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

WASHINGTON (August 25, 2004) — A new study from the Center for Immigration Studies is one of the first to estimate the impact of illegal immigration on the federal budget. Based on Census Bureau data, the study estimates that households headed by illegal aliens used $10 billion more in government services than they paid in taxes in 2002. These figures are only for the federal government; costs at the state and local level are also likely to be significant. The study also finds that if illegals were given amnesty, the fiscal deficit at the federal level would grow to nearly $29 billion.

The study, entitled The High Cost of Cheap Labor: Illegal Immigration and the Federal Budget, is online here. Among the findings:

* Illegal alien households are estimated to use $2,700 a year more in services than they pay in taxes, creating a total fiscal burden of nearly $10.4 billion on the federal budget in 2002.

* Among the largest federal costs: Medicaid ($2.5 billion); treatment for the uninsured ($2.2 billion); food assistance programs ($1.9 billion); the federal prison and court systems ($1.6 billion); and federal aid to schools ($1.4 billion).

* If illegal aliens were legalized and began to pay taxes and use services like legal immigrants with the same education levels, the estimated annual fiscal deficit at the federal level would increase from $2,700 per household to nearly $7,700, for a total federal deficit of $29 billion.

* With nearly two-third of illegals lacking a high school diploma, the primary reason they create a fiscal deficit is their low education levels and resulting low incomes and tax payments — not their legal status or their unwillingness to work.

* Amnesty increases costs because illegals would still be largely unskilled, and thus their tax payments would continue to be very modest, but once legalized they would be able to access many more government services.

* The fact that legal immigrants with little schooling are a fiscal drain on federal coffers does not mean that legal immigrants overall are a drain. Many legal immigrants are highly skilled.

* Because many of the costs are due to their U.S.-born children, who are awarded U.S. citizenship at birth, barring illegals themselves from federal programs will not significantly reduce costs.

* Although they create a net drain on the federal government, the average illegal household pays more than $4,200 a year in federal taxes, for a total of nearly $16 billion.

* However, they impose annual costs of more than $26.3 billion, or about $6,950 per illegal household.

* About 43 percent, or $7 billion, of the federal taxes illegals pay go to Social Security and Medicare.

* Employers do not see the costs associated with less-educated immigrant workers because the costs are spread out among all taxpayers.

[Kruzr]

.witness the number of Yiddish and Italian newspapers in NY, Yiddish theatre. etc..Both my paternal grandparents (born here in 1890s) were bilingual, Yiddish and English.
As were mine but they knew they had to learn English to "get out of the neighborhood" and earn a living. They also didn't look to the government for handouts and they worked hard to become citizens.

[c_yeager]

I once saw an old newsreel that was bemoaning the flood of migrant workers that were picking crops in California and forcing "good honest AMERICANS" out of a job. Much of the same arguments that I read here were conveyed in that piece of footage.

The difference? Those immigrants were Irish, Italian, and Polish (and I'm sure assorted other mishmash). The cries have always been the same and they have always come from the descendants of immigrants who seem unable to see the hypocrisy of their position. The Mexicans who are crossing the boarder as we speach are no more undeserving of becoming Americans than every other wave of immigrants that came before them.

As were mine but they knew they had to learn English to "get out of the neighborhood" and earn a living. They also didn't look to the government for handouts and they worked hard to become citizens.

This is the very same situation for MANY if not most immigrants from Mexico. Yes, there are plenty of welfare leeches in their ranks. But, the same could be said for every other population. The majority (maybe plurality by now) of welfare recepients are still natural born American citizens. Would it be fair to assume that Americans are worthless and lazy based on that?

To this DAY one can hear Italian being spoken in parts of NY. So what if its Spanish in parts of LA or Russian in parts of Seattle. We have built this nation BASED on an influx of immigrants. To elliminate that is to elliminate the very things that have placed us in a position to have something worth fighting for.

[R.H. Lee]

We have built this nation BASED on an influx of immigrants. To elliminate that is to elliminate the very things that have placed us in a position to have something worth fighting for. So you advocate unlimited, unrestricted immigration without qualifiers? What do you not understand about the difference between legal and illegal immigration?

[buzz_knox]

I think we're missing the point. He's advocating allowing these people to come in legally, and then be hired legally. That means they are on the official payrolls, and taxes will be taken out. This is the equivalent of legalizing drugs: we know it's going to happen, so let's make some money off of it.

[Lone_Gunman]

That means they are on the official payrolls, and taxes will be taken out.

So how will that stop the flow of illegal immigration? If they are on the official payrolls and taxes are paid (by employers) then it will cost employers more to hire them. Wouldn't employers still hire illegals who were not on the official payrolls to avoid the higher cost of having to pay taxes?

I just don't see this guest worker idea to be a good solution to stopping continued illegal immigration.

Personally, I think we should stop all immigration from everywhere, regardless of nation of origin or what you can supposedly "add" to our society.

The lifeboat is full, and the more people we add, the more likely it is to capsize. Sorry they got here late. Lifes a bitch sometimes. They need to stay home and fix their own country.

[Coltdriver]

The problem we face is that there are about 15 million illegal aliens in the US.

We face this problem because the politicians who are sworn to uphold the laws of this country have ignored those laws.

For every dollar the economy benefits from the presence of these illegals, the illegals take two dollars out. It is a net loss to the legal citizens of this country.

For Bush to claim that "good hearted people do the work Americans won't do" is pure BS.

Pay a market wage and Americans will do the work. Hiring illegal aliens to do the work is the same as stealing from the legal Citizens of this country.

Bush is going to face a firestorm on this topic when congress re convenes. He aint going to get an amnesty program. Congress will hear from the Citizens of this country like they did with Specter.

Every state that has voted on the subject has overwhelmingly supported enforcing the laws. In 2006 Colorado will enact laws preventing illegals from sucking our blood. Those laws will be put on the books by the citizens initiative process here. There are 300 thousand illegals in Colorado.

To say there are too many to kick out is pure BS. No problem is too big for this country to solve.

The biggest problem with the Mexican illegals is that they are people that Mexico does not want. Mexicans in the lower two thirds of the country are very happy to stay there, are mostly at least high school educated and have a life and a culture. The ones they foist upon us from the northern third of the country are the lowest tier of Mexican society.

I welcome any countries best and brightest. Keep your low lifes to yourself.

[moa]

Bush speaks of "compassion". Being compassionate is not his job. His job is to enforce the laws, which he is not doing regarding illegal immigration.

If Bush insists on being compassionate, then he has to remember that compassion begins at home for Americans.

As someone pointed out above, I see little hope that his work permit plan will halt illegal immigration when you have millions of people who want to come to America any which way the can. I have heard of estimates of one billion people worldwide want to come to America.

Also, who is going to manage the work permit program? How much is going to cost? How effective will it be? Is it going to be strictly voluntary?

And why would any employer employ a "legalized" illegal and have to pay payroll and SS taxes and observe employee protection laws, when they can employee non-legalized illegal aliens much cheaper and withl much less hassle?

And what is in it for an illegal aliens who gets a work permit? Ease of passage going back an forth accross the border is probably about it. They may end up loosing their job to another illegal alien.

We have had situations years ago about earlier arriving illegal aliens from Mexico settling in California, who ended up having to flee California to other states (like Virginia) because later arriving illegals would work for even less money.

Actually, the way I see it, Bush is a wholly owned subsidiary of Vincente Fox, President of Mexico.

I should note that in prior immigration situations in the US, 50% of the East Europeans, and 40% of the Italians returned home for good. There was no US welfare state to fall back on.

[c_yeager]

I think we're missing the point. He's advocating allowing these people to come in legally, and then be hired legally. That means they are on the official payrolls, and taxes will be taken out. This is the equivalent of legalizing drugs: we know it's going to happen, so let's make some money off of it.

exactly. We functioned under a system akin to that for a lot longer than under our current system.

So how will that stop the flow of illegal immigration? If they are on the official payrolls and taxes are paid (by employers) then it will cost employers more to hire them. Wouldn't employers still hire illegals who were not on the official payrolls to avoid the higher cost of having to pay taxes?

Sounds to me like this problem has more to do with the behavior of American companies than it does with illegal alliens. Take away the demand for illegals and thus goes the supply. Its the same argument that everyone uses for drug legalization.

[wingman]

This plan will not slow illegal immigration in fact truth is it will probably increase, many that come across now have a criminal record they will
not apply to there side or ours for a green card.....

I have lived in the southwest 30 years, along the border and now central
Texas, the changes because of illegal immigration is drastic to the average
taxpayer in terms of hospital cost, schools, etc.

IN The past many came only to work now many come for the services of
various government agencies. The education level is so low that many
can never be raised into the mainstream of working class America.

This will be a major issue in coming years while the idea of America taking
in anyone and giving them a helping hand sounds great but in all things
there are limits. Personally I never want a kid to go without food or
someone want for work but to survive America needs to set limits or
we will fail.

I suggest all board members write there representatives and express your
feelings on this subject. It is important to our future.

Legal controlled immigration.....

[Brett Bellmore]

That wall Israel is building is estimated to cost a million dollars a kilometer. We've got a bit over 3000 km of border with Mexico. And our anual defense budget is nearly 400 billion dollars.

For a couple percent of one year of our defense budget, we could build TWO Israel style (Huge concrete wall with high tech sensors.) border walls, and a mine field between them. We can argue about whether we should, but anyone who claims we can't is either pretty ignorant, (Hasn't run the numbers, maybe.) or not particularly honest. We can seal that border any time we've got the will to do so.

[Phil Ca]

My Dutch and German ancestors had to learn English when they came here. The Scotch-Irish and English ancestors already spoke some English and needed mainly to lose the accent.

Here in the PRK I can drive to a location just 10 minutes from where we live and feel we are in Mexico. The signs are almost all in Spanish and the music is all Spanish. When I go into the grocery store some people look at me as if I did not belong there!

The local papers print some adds in two languages and the Spanish paper has Home Depot adds in all Spanish editions. When I go to Costco i find some boxes with the Spanish wording towards the front. I someimes spend aa few minutes turning them to the English side. One time about a year ago i met a Canadian couple in Costco that were just comparing products here versus those in Canada. The man told me that he turns the French language side back to English in stores also.

Near the area we used to live in about 9 months ago there were a number of new homes going up. I watched as the Spanish speaking work crew built the houses. During the evening as the sun began to set you could see the shoddy work on the house mnearest the through street. Each piece of outer wall material was very evident and you could see plainly every joint. These houses were being sold new for $200,000 plus. The median price in this area is over 300 grand up nearly 30% in the last year.

In our old neighborhood there were some families living in an extended situation. A three bedroom, two bath home had the main family of father, mother and 12 year old son, their married daughter, husband and toddler, and the owners brother-in-law and wife all in this single family home. They pored extra concrete next to the garage diveway so that one more truck would be off the street. That made one car in the garage, three parked in the driveway and a beater pickup out on the street.

To be fair there was a caucasian couple next door to us in a single story three bedroom home with their extended family living there. Husband and wife and their three vehicles including a muscle car in the garage and a jeep and four door truck in the driveway. The daughter and husband and child also lived thier and they had a car parked on the street. The son and his wife/girlfriend and their baby also lived there and they had a car in the street.

This was a nice area with house ranging in the 270's and most all were kept up. The density of people living in the area plus the many teen-aged kids with noisy scooters was reason enough to move.

One thing we were not used to was the many, many vendors and door to door sales people in the 15 months we lived there. We had lived in a small village on a mountain overlooking Napa Valley for 25 years and I could count one or two persons a month going door to door during that time. In this city we had from two to seven per week. This included the door hanger adds and a few slipped under the door. We had alarm sales, vacuum sweeper sales, painting, repair, electrical, plumbing, landscaping and any number of other service type sales represented.

There were at lest two or three ice cream vendors with vans, usially East Indian operators with their little recorded music playing as they slowly drove down the street. We had people offering to sell home-made tacos, enchilades and other comestibles. During football games some guy would go around selling pork rinds followed by another selling colorfull team logo blankets and pennants.

The third world nature of the whole area was a bit much and we were glad to move to a quieter area where mostly retired people are located. We have anly about a dozen door to door sales people in 9 months.

The medical situation in Kalifornia is getting to be critical. In the LA area there are about six ER's closing down due to the high influs of illegals seeking medical aid. Most of these people treat the ER like a family medical clinic. we belong to a well established HMO with clinic, pharmacies and a hospital not far away.

I did not even get into the gang-related crime in the area. We have had one car stolen two weeks ago. It was recoverd in an orchard, all burned outwith a number of body parts missing. We saw it yesterday all charred and ugly. This area is number one in the US for auto theft. car stealing gangs come up from Fesno and further south to look for cars in some cases.

Until the POTUS gets a handle on our borders I cannot say we are actually having a war on terrorism. If you look at the list of countries involved in illegal crossings you will see a sample of the world.

When you feel like a stranger in your own country it is a sad state of affairs. I am not against legal immigration. Several members of my extended and immediate family are either naturalized citizens or newly sworn in.

[flatrock]

Bush's guest worker plan really isn't that bad, it's just not serious immigration reform. It does have the potential to help in reducing the number of illegal immigrants the border patrol needs to deal with, but without serious reform on how we enforce immigration law it's pretty much useless.

There are jobs that American workers are unwilling to fill at the wages that those businesses can afford to pay and still stay in business because of international competition.

Bush's guest worker program requires that employers make every attempt to hire an American worker before attempting to hire a worker through the guest worker program. SInce the real question is if this would be effectively enforced, a fee to hire a guest worker through the program might also be used to make it so that American workers were cheaper to hire when paying the same wages.

Bush's plan isn't an open borders plan, it's a change to our legal immigration policies.

The problem with it is that the portion of the plan that talks about enforcing the immigration laws is way too weak to have any real effect.

We need to drastically increase enforcement. We need to get state and local law enforcement involved. We need to make sure the courts have the capacity to handle millions of deportation hearings in a timely manner. We need to make sure we have the facilities to detain illegal immigrants instead of releasing them with the false hope that they'll show up to their deportation hearing without being detained.

We also need to use the Guest WOrker Program as leverage with Mexico. That program is something that Mexico wants to see us implement. We should be able to negotiate some things out of them as part of this.

They need to reform their corrupt law enforcement and improve the quality of the information they provide when we attempt to do background checks on immigrants.

They need to show a real willingness to help police the border from their side to reduce illegal immigration.

I really don't think Bush's plan is bad in itself, it just doesn't address the real issues we have with immigration which is ineffective enforcement.

I'm actually for Bush's plan if it's part of a plan that seriously tackles improving immigration law enforcement. But I'm opposed to letting it be passed without such provisions.

[longeyes]

Not only is Bush mum about the "stick" part of his program, I have so far failed to detect any whiff of BI-LATERALISM in his plan. Where are the concessions from Mexico for the enormous favor we are doing them by importing their unwanted and uneducated population? (And it IS a favor, given that each illegal is a net loss to our treasury.) Part of this plan should be the re-development, economically and politically, of Mexico, so that this is not just a one-way migration safety valve. Has anyone discussed coastal real estate, for example? Has anyone mentioned the O-Word (yeah, oil)? All we hear from Bush is bleeding-heart remarks about "hardworking moms and dads." To be honest, I find his statements embarrassing as serious statecraft and strangely oblivious to his duties as chief executive officer of the United States. When Bush goes into preacher mode about Mexico, he loses me utterly. I'm betting he's going to be losing a lot of other people too before this second term is up.

[spacemanspiff]

wake me up when "immigant hunting season" opens.
:rolleyes:

[wingman]

I really don't think Bush's plan is bad in itself

Not trying to be argumentative but the plan is really terrible, all it will
do is encourge more illegal immigration, first we must have strong enforcement, allow local police to hold and deport illegals when
stopped for traffic violations, bring charges against employers for
hiring illegals.

There is not an upside to illegals, we lose and those who gain are
the rich on both sides of the border.

I have been a long timer supporter of this administration and the republican
party however I believe this issue to be as important as the gun issue to
this country and I may be forced to change my vote next election. :banghead:

[Hawkmoon]

There are NO jobs that Americans aren't willing to do.

Americans pump out septic tanks. I don't think there's a nastier job anywhere in the world than that.

The problem is that "Americans" would like to be paid a decent living wage for doing the jobs Bush and his wealthy cronies would prefer to see done by slave labor.

[moa]

You will never see the Mexican government do anything to stop illegal immigration. In fact, the government encourages it. The second highest source of incoming revenue in Mexico that the illegals and others send home from the US.

These are billions of American dollars not being spent in America.

One of the things that burns me is that the Mexican goverment will not extradict a Mexican national accused of crime in the US that could bring the death penatly or life in prison. Almost a license to kill, Mexican style.

In an interesting article recently in the Washington Times, talks about how many of the villages in Mexico have few young adults, especially men. They are all go to El Norte (USA). Many of these illegals are more Indian than Mexican. In these villages it is very difficult at times to get things done because of the lack manpower. And, often when the villagers return, the have picked up bad habits like becoming gangbangers in the US.

[longeyes]

Moa, you bring up a very good point, which slipped my mind: Bush's failure to pressure V. Fox regarding extradition of escaped felons who have taken refuge in Mexico. This is the kind of thing that is truly infuriating. Bush acts as if he is a vassal of the Mexican elite. There is a lot of stuff going on here--clandestine deals of some sort--that we ordinary mortals are clearly not privy to. If Bush wants to hazard his Presidency on an open borders policy, he is making a big mistake, at least judging from what I hear around me.

[Wildalaska]

since your presentation reads as a quoting of my words, with out a clarification of your intent at comparison to the anti-immigrant xenophobes of the past. I expected better from you Wildalaska.

And I you......

Looking at the final year, 1910, 24,270 out of 1, 041,510 were debarred from entry. Roughly 2.3%.

I would call that virtually no one, and note that that that is the last year cited when anti semitic anti immigrant rhetoric was reaching its peak.

And IIRC, the hand outs were from PRIVATE charitable organizations, not extracted from the populace via taxes taken at the point of a gun by the central .gov.

Your correct...but that is a policy choice by the US government, so yer gonna balme immigrants for that?

Its about La Raza racists, the practice of female circumcision, ignoring the limits on taking of fish and other game animals and a host of other topics. And in my opinion, it comes down to the continuation of OUR culture, one of general (and improving) acceptance of the benefits that legitimate immigration brings to our American world view, a history of individual liberty and equal opportunity for success (and failure) for all.

Here we go, try this one....

"Its about socialists, female prositition, .... continue"

WilimhavingsteakandtatersAlaska.

[Sindawe]

...that is the last year cited when anti semitic anti immigrant rhetoric was reaching its peak.
What has THAT got to do with your assertion that virtually no one was turned away?
I would call that virtually no one,
Well, then I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on the definition 'virtually no one". For me, 10 or 20 out of slightly more than 1 million would be virtually no one. 24,000 out of 1,000,000 is not virtually no one. Thats akin to saying that "A serious disease has infected greater Denver, but fortunally only the entire population of Louisville died"
Here we go, try this one.... "Its about socialists, female prositition, .... continue"
What? Please elaborate, I don't see the connection, sorry.


One of the things that burns me is that the Mexican goverment will not extradict a Mexican national accused of crime in the US that could bring the death penatly or life in prison. Almost a license to kill, Mexican style.
I concur moa. Commit a violent crime, then flee across the border and its its all cool. Everybody know that the gringos in El Norte are just a bunch of sheet wear bigots.

[Wildalaska]

"What has THAT got to do with your assertion that virtually no one was turned away?"

Governemtn pressure to turn away immigrants..........and the effect ofnew laws see below

" 24,000 out of 1,000,000 is not virtually no one."

Why not look at itt this way...between 1890 and 1910 (20 years) the approximate total immigration into the US was about 20 million Now how many were excluded...??? 1%....thats virtually no one

And here we go....1903, beggers, epileptics and anarchists (as to the last read jews, russians and italians) are barred, 1907, imbeciles, feeble minded, tubercular and children under 16 without parents are excluded....thats your almost 16,000 in 1910 by the way..of course in 1905-1910 there were all over eastern europe, figures a lot of parentless kiddies kept out of the us...

What I am saying is the arguments you give us are the same as we hear over and over again everytime there is a wave of immigration....becasue some jews and italians were gangsters, they all are gangsters, becasue some mexicans are gangsters, they all are gangsters.....

WildimmigrnatsongAlaska

[RealGun]

Without cheap labor, inflation would result. If it's true that there are jobs that citizens "don't want", it is because the jobs don't pay enough or because citizens are not physically fit.

Employers duck the issue of hiring illegals by contracting with a crew boss, who then has all the liability for legal immigration status of the workers. However, if dealing with a single employee, a housekeeper or grounds keeper for example, an employer is liable for individual withholdings, which would require a social security number.

I can think of a couple disincentives for immigration. First I would require bank transfers out of the country to include either a social security number or visa identification. There should be at least a token tax on those transactions so that there is a justification to report all those transactions to the IRS, who should be able to find corresponding records of earnings. The bank transfer should not process until the identification has been verified. You have to know that Mexico would be real upset about such a regulation.

Secondly, any crew leader for a work crew should have to show proof of citizenship or legal immigration status for all workers as well as himself, and the employer should be held liable for any false claims, forgeries, or oversights. Payroll documentation and distribution should be the responsibility of the employer, not the crew chief, who really then just becomes the necessary interpreter, where language is an issue. This also removes the likelihood that the crew chief is taking a very high percentage of the payroll before the crew gets paid. The only way that an employer could pay the crew chief instead is if the crew chief was a citizen, or the crew was managed by a legal domestic corporation with the crew chief only an agent.

The net result that people will have to confront in exchange for immigration control is that for some products and services, agriculture especially, the prices will go up dramatically. In the absence of sufficient demand, i.e. the ability of the consumer to pay those higher prices, farmers will simply go out of business, and products will not be available. In the end, the tax payer may have to subsidize the transition, if the industry or production capacity is to be preserved.

[flatrock]

Hawkmoon,

It's not really a factor of Americans being unwilling to do the job at all. THe real issue is are Americans willing to do the job for a wage that allows the employer to stay in business due to foreign competition.

Or there are areas where there may just not be enough domestic labor when the economy is doing well.

Pumping septic tanks, trash pickup, even working in fast food, are examples of jobs where the company doesn't have to worry about foreign competition, and the wages should simply be governed by what an American worker is willing to do the job for.

However, there are jobs that use unskilled labor, and are under intense pressure from foreign competition. If those companies can't remain competitive, our economy loses all the jobs from that company as well as the money those employees spend and invest in our economy.

Bush's plan doesn't appear to differentiate between companies that have or do not have domestic competition, and that is an issue. However, it is just a rough plan without a lot of details filled in at this point.

There may not be jobs that Americans are unwilling to do. THere are jobs that will dissappear if they are required to pay what an American wants to do them for, and they will take other jobs with them when they go.

[wingman]

There may not be jobs that Americans are unwilling to do. THere are jobs that will dissappear if they are required to pay what an American wants to do them for, and they will take other jobs with them when they go.

Most good jobs are going elsewhere anyway, basically greed and the bottom
line controls the use of illegals, does anyone really believe they get a house
cheaper because a crew of illegals built it.? As a side note come down in
my part of Texas and look at new homes being built they are truely junk,
throw away homes good for 7-9 years max., is this the illegals fault, no
pure and simple greed.

It's a numbers problem and it won't stop until we let our folks in Washington
know we want a change, we are building a recipe for disaster by continuing
the import of 3th world people and exporting jobs at some point it will break
us. I've seen post that say we've heard this before however we no longer
live in the 1800's where a family could come here get there 40 acres and
be productive without state help, that time is gone, I wish it wasn't but
it is. A larger number of people who came before had skills, many now do not!

[Art Eatman]

wingman, the exporting of jobs is beyond governmental control. Well, okay, tariffs might slow it somewhat, but won't stop it. Before saying that tariffs are a good solution, read up on the Smoot-Hawley tariff law of of some 70 or 80 years back, and how it helped spread the Great Depression into a world-wide economic phenomenon.

Over 25% unemployment, here in the US, remember...

Art

[wingman]

I hear you Art and agree on the idea it is tough for government to control jobs and I sure dont have the answer but the present direction we are
going will hurt us big time in the future.

I believe at one time we had business leaders and wealthly who had some
patriotism, now it doesnt exist and again the only ones that benefit from
illegals are the rich here and in Mexico. No matter the cost "now" we need
to at the very least ease the flow of manufacturing jobs going to third
world countries, GOD help us if we ever get in a ww2 situation again and
not have the materials, tooling and skills needed to build supplies. Many
will say this cannot happen again but like all things it's a matter of time.

[Waitone]

wingman, the exporting of jobs is beyond governmental control. I'll accept the premise if you make just a few adjustments to supporting assumptions.

For me to agree you'll have to:
--Pull out all positive tax incentives provided by the US government to US companies to move overseas. They do indeed exist.
--Pull out all incentives provided by the receiving country
--Make adjustments to account for private healthcare in the US vs typically socialized medicine in the receiving country.
--Make adjustment for private retirement systems in the US vs socialized retirements in receiving country.
--Adjust for the fear and threat of litigation in the US.
--Adjust for the cost of environmental regulations in the US vs virtually nothing in the receiving country.
--Account for OSHA's cost to the US economy.

Make all these adjustments and I'll buy off on your assessment. Until then, let us agree to stop calling it "free trade." Let's call it what it is; "Managed Trade." Furthermore let us acknowledge its real purpose which is rewarding foreign countries for support of US foreign policy initiatives. We used to just ship money out. Now days we set up "free trade" agreements. :scrutiny:

[flatrock]

Wingman,

Most good jobs are going elsewhere? Our economy is growing. Unemployment is going down.

There are a lot of jobs going elsewhere, but it's neither most jobs nor all the good jobs.

Most good jobs are going elsewhere anyway, basically greed and the bottom line controls the use of illegals, does anyone really believe they get a house cheaper because a crew of illegals built it.?

Yes, there is competition in the house building market. Builders are making better profit margins lately because growth in the housing market puts them in higher demand. If they were paying more for labor, then the price you pay for a home would be even more. That's how a free market works.

I'm not defending the hiring of illegal aliens. We need to aggressively enforce immigration laws. However, inexpensive labor does result in cheaper products. Bush's plan suggests that we need a source of inexpensive legal labor.

As a side note come down in
my part of Texas and look at new homes being built they are truely junk,
throw away homes good for 7-9 years max., is this the illegals fault, no
pure and simple greed.

Then why are people buying those houses? I live in a new home (condo). I did have to harass the builder to make sure they did the job right.

My home has also appreciated in value almost 30% from when I locked in the price a year ago to now. Why? Because I got in on the project early and went through the growing pains with the builder, and got my price set before the big increases in the costs of building materials.

Because of those increases the builder didn't make much on my home. When they used crappy contractors that did a bad job, I made them fix the problems at their expense.

If people are buying crappy homes, they have themselves to blame.

It's a numbers problem and it won't stop until we let our folks in Washington know we want a change, we are building a recipe for disaster by continuing the import of 3th world people and exporting jobs at some point it will break us.

We didn't export jobs or import workers in the 80s when the steel industry was being killed by foreign competition. That didn't seem to solve the problem.

We tried tarrifs on imports, and that hurt our domestic economy due to our companies that needed steel to produce products say their costs going up and were less able to compete with imports.

In the end we were not able to save our domestic steel industry for the most part despite attempts at government intervention. What makes you think the situation is different with most of the other jobs that are currently going overseas?

The economy of the US is not a closed system that ends at our borders, and it's been proven time and time again that attempts to make it a closed system hurt us more than help us in the long run.

We can use tarrifs and such to temporarily protect our markets and jobs, but it doesn't work as a long term solution. They're great for easing the effects of a changing economy on our workforce, but they can't change the fact that if we can import the same product for considerably less than we can make it, our domestic production of that product is going to disappear.

I've seen post that say we've heard this before however we no longer
live in the 1800's where a family could come here get there 40 acres and
be productive without state help, that time is gone, I wish it wasn't but
it is. A larger number of people who came before had skills, many now do not!

That depends on what you consider productive. There are still many people who are self reliant in our society. They may not be eating out all the time, driving new SUVs, and retiring at 50, but there are still a great many people in the country that have simple desires and are able to provide for themselves just fine and wish the governemnt would stay our of thier lives as much as possible.

There is still a demand for skilled labor. I just bought a new bedroom set from an Amish furniture store. It's made with skill and quality that you're not going to get buying furniture at a chain store. The quality came at a price, but I'm very pleased with my purchase.

The time where you can make good money for relatively easy unskilled labor is gone. Those jobs are too easily replaced by machines domestically, or done cheaper outside the US.

We can't stop competition from outside the US, we can limit it some for reasonable periods of time, but that's about it. Companies that are effected by that and ignore that fact will go under. Companies that recognize that and adapt as best they can have a chance to prosper.

Everytime someone brings up the subject of employers we get to hear people complaining about corporate greed.

Are those employers that want to make money being more greedy than their employees that want to make more money?

If the employers are making such great profits, then someone should start a competing company and undercut them. If that's not happening, then maybe the profits they are making aren't so unreasonable considering the risks they took in developing that company?

[R.H. Lee]

Well, part of the exporting of jobs problem can be laid on the doorstep of the labor unions IMO. When you have to pay some janitor $25 per hour to ride around on a golf cart and collect trash, you just can't be competitive with all the 3rd world junk we import into this country. But even the root of that problem is our insatiable demand for consumer crap.

[lostone1413]

It has nothing to do with compassion it has all to do with cheap labor. Here in my part of AZ I see the house builders using illegals when Americans are out of work. When they sell the house they get as much as if union carpenters built the house. So it is the rich will do nothing to stop the Illegals that includes GWB because they make to much money with their cheap labor. Don't think for a sec that any politican is for the working man in any party.

[wingman]

There are a lot of jobs going elsewhere, but it's neither most jobs nor all the good jobs.

Depends on your view of a good job, perhaps not what you are doing
however many of our manufacturing jobs are gone... to actually produce
a product is a good thing not all folks want to shuffle papers or work a
computer as I have done for a large part of my life.

Then why are people buying those houses? I live in a new home (condo). I did have to harass the builder to make sure they did the job right.

Good for you, however we cannot blame the consumer for the building
of poor quality products, many people now haven't a clue what makes
a good home. However if we follow your thinking it's ok becuase the builder
is trying to make a buck.

The time where you can make good money for relatively easy unskilled labor is gone

"easy unskilled labor" I can see you never worked an easy job, tell that to
the woman 55+ in perhaps Tenn. that worked a job 35 years and she
was laid off and the job moved to China so WalMart could make more money.

Are those employers that want to make money being more greedy than their employees that want to make more money?

Makes my point, one group is greedy so its ok for others to do so. Well, heck
must be ok then. :D

[wolf]

http://www.azcentral.com/specials/special03/articles/1215voting.html

this link is just a preview of upcoming elections and how they will be held here in the US. ByeBye America.

seems to be some that think this invasion of illegal aliens is good thing, (they are aliens not immigrants..immigrants enter legally) perhaps the supporters see this from afar. Up close its not a good thing for anyone..aliens included.
These people are the new slaves, and they are used by any power group that can use them. This includeds racist groups like LaRaza & MALDEF.

As the invasion leaves California & the southwest and moves into the midwest and south..people are aware that something is wrong. And the awareness is growing. To supporters of illegal aliens it must seem very normal for mexicans and central americans to find their way to the far reaches of long island NY..to hang out on corners..urinate in public..make gross sounds at the women that happen to be near that area and live in overcrowded quarters.

this is far beyond someone looking for work...wake up...it very organized and supported by big bucks and bigger egos. the mexican govt being currupt to the core is using the race card big time on this one and american liberal guilt is helping it all it can.

at some point...usually when you start thinking about learning spanish...you begin to see the destruction this is causing.

my main bitch with this is that these people are not here to become americans...just get the $$ and run.

wolf

[spartacus2002]

North Carolina has already reached saturation point. I was in Durham two weeks ago and I thought I was in LA.

[c_yeager]

seems to be some that think this invasion of illegal aliens is good thing, (they are aliens not immigrants..immigrants enter legally) perhaps the supporters see this from afar. Up close its not a good thing for anyone..aliens included.

FYI the term "alien" reffers to all unnaturalized immigrants legal and otherwise. Neither term makes any infference into the legal status of the person it reffers to. An immigrant is a person that comes to this country from another country. An Alien is a non-citizen who is in this country from another. There is no implied status with either term.

[Ryder]

Comparing past immigration to this situation is apples and oranges since mexico shares a border with us. Mexico's ultimate goal is to annex stars off our flag. Bush pretending ignorance of this is helping them to achieve it without a fight. That isn't called greed.

[Ezekiel]

Mexico's ultimate goal is to annex stars off our flag.

Forced to disagree here. By all appearances, Bush wants to add a couple of more stars -- at least -- to our existing 50. Mexico, with its vast natural resources, is a target, not an aggressor. At this point, Mexico's ultimate goal is (opinion) merely to survive.

[longeyes]

At this point, Mexico's ultimate goal is (opinion) merely to survive.

Mexico's oligarchy of "The Forty-Seven Families" is surviving very well, thank you. I have heard Bush say little or nothing about about cooperative economic development in Mexico that would discourage emigration from that country into ours and begin to reform that nation's polity. All we are doing is keeping the Mexican elites safe and in power while systematically undermining our own workers, both working class and middle class.

The real scapegoats in all this are American's black population. They have more to lose than anyone right now from the influx.

[longeyes]

http://www.teamamericapac.org/

[R.H. Lee]

Between 1890 and 1910, 20 million immigrants. Wasn't that the time of the Industrial Revolution when the Captains of Industry needed cheap labor?

[River Wraith]

What's the proper caliber for an illegal alien? They are felons, right?

[Wildalaska]

What's the proper caliber for an illegal alien? They are felons, right?

Dude that comment is sooooooo wrong :mad:

WildittakesthelowroadAlaska

[spartacus2002]

What's the proper caliber for an illegal alien? They are felons, right?

Take that crap elsewhere. There's a reason why we call this The High Road. If you want to play those games, go to AR15.com and resurrect the "what caliber is best for zombies/evilclowns" threads.

[wingman]

What's the proper caliber for an illegal alien? They are felons, right?

Sir: Please do not bring this issue down in the gutter, the illegal immigration
problem is one of the most important problems facing this country in the next
20 years and it must be addressed in a common sense manner. If we are to
have a respectable amount of freedom and quality of life we must debate
this issue and have control of our borders but it must be done within the law.

[Art Eatman]

Yeah, River Wraith, bouncing off rocks in a dry channel ain't all that much fun...

Art

[why_me]

Truthfully the only problem i see with Illegal immigration and the guest worker program, is how it affects my pocket book. An influx of immigrants will lower my standard of living,
Everything else is pretty much xenophobia or outright racism.
I am totally against illegal aliens and guest workers. And i have a much cheaper way of stopping it. It is time to go after the employers in a big time way. We already have laws on the books. Employers can be fined 10000 dollars or more per illegal.
Right now the way it is an employer can claim ignorance of an illegals status by claiming that there employee showed them a SS# and a drivers license.
Does it make sense that if you have drugs in your house you can be arrested for not knowing they are there, yet you can plead ignorance of an employees citizenship status>?
Its time to go after the employers in a big time way. Like never before.