[Dave Sample]

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/6018575/77279624.jpg

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/6018575/77279608.jpg

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/6018575/77279639.jpg

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/6018575/77279648.jpg

Wishing all of you Happy Holidays. Have a cool yule............

[Tecolote]

A Rinco for $225! :what: Merry Chrismas indeed. :p

[bosshoff]

Looking good Dave. I just got a really nice condition Norinco, and I am already beside myself with aingst. I can't decide what I want to do first! :) The grips, sights, sear/disconnect/trigger/mainspring/hammer/bushing, and all springs will be going. Cylinder and Slide as well as Kings should be happy, or at least Brownells.

[Dave Sample]

Check it out at http://p197.ezboard.com/bdavesplace and have some fun with us while we do some serious Norinco Renovations.

[NavajoNPaleFace]

Where'd ya pick it up at, Dave?

J&G? Prescott Valley Guns? Where?

Great buy. Great lil gun.

[Dave Sample]

Prescott Pawn and Coin Shop, corner of Montezuma and Sheldon St. right here in Prescott. They are good friends of mine and I had them looking for one so I could play the "1911 China Game one more time." That is where I trade 1911's for big diamond rings. Pack Rats like me always love shiny objects. That is why I am the Master of Bling! I can sell it for big bucks when I get tired of playing with it.

[Gixerman1000]

Very nice, I hope to get my Christmas present tomorrow.

[1911Tuner]

Went and checked out that barrel. :eek:

I'd offer to loan ya my headspace gauges Cap'n...but I'm 'fraid that one's a goner. If ya don't mind, I'd like to know the serial number on that one.
Just leave out the last 3 digits. I think I'm onto somethin' here.

Oh, BTW! It's 40 years...not 25. ;)

Merry Christmas!

[Yojinbo]

This makes my coal even harder to bear!


Merry Christmas!

[Brass Balls]

Here's my Merry Christmas to me gun. It's a Smith & Wesson Performance Center PC1911. I was lucky enough to find a pair of them sequentially numbered JMB002X. I dig the serial number prefix.

http://home.comcast.net/~1911brass/SW_PC1911_016sm.jpg

[Dave Sample]

Well, that was not the end of my Chrismas Presents. One of my pals drove up from the LA Annex yesterday to pick up the Engraved Six Shooter that I tuned up for him. He brought EAGLE1 back home, also.

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/2872874/77820780.jpg

It was in a New Box!

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/2872874/77820754.jpg

French Lined in Blue with a bullet holder that is shaped like Arizona!

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/2872874/77820413.jpg

I have the nicest friends in the world. and some of them are Online! Merry Christmas To All the Boys and Girls on the High Road!

[Dave Sample]

Tuner: Here are the numbers you asked for. It's about time you are on to something! Woof Woof Woof. 308*** is the number of this new China Girl. I am tweaking it on my own forum. "Come and see a fat old man sometime!"

[1911Tuner]

Well...I went back to have a look at that "slight damage" to those lugs, and I noticed that you still insist that a loaded round in the chamber is a reliable indicator of ideal headspace.

Gotta call, ya on this one...again.

Rather than continue to argue the point, I'll have all the readers who are in possession of Kuhnhausen's #2 shop manual and turn to page 61 and go to section "F" midways down the page.

Quote:

GAUGE headspace and note chamber length for reference.(Replace barrel if headspace is excessive.)

"Gauge" being the operative word.

Then turn to page 100 and go to the very bottom.

Quote:

Actual chamber headspace is defined and the distance from the camber's cartridge heading shoulder to the breech face with the barrel in horizontal lug engaged position.

The breechface being the front end of the slide...Right? Right?

Dropping a loaded round into the chamber and seeing the rim sitting flush with the barrel hood is NOT an indication of safe headspace. It is entirely possible to have the rim flush and still have dangerously excessive headspace.

Headspace gauge lengths are minimum .989 and maximum .920 inch. That means that if the gun will go to battery on the maximum gauge, it has
excessive headspace and is rejected for service. There are very good reasons for that maximum....Dave.

Regards,

Tuner

[1911Tuner]

Well...I went back to have a look at that "slight damage" to those lugs, and I noticed that you still insist that a loaded round in the chamber is a reliable indicator of ideal headspace.

Gotta call, ya on this one...again.

Rather than continue to argue the point, I'll have all the readers who are in possession of Kuhnhausen's #2 shop manual and turn to page 61 and go to section "F" midways down the page.

Quote:

GAUGE headspace and note chamber length for reference.(Replace barrel if headspace is excessive.)

"Gauge" being the operative word.

Then turn to page 100 and go to the very bottom.

Quote:

Actual chamber headspace is defined and the distance from the camber's cartridge heading shoulder to the breech face with the barrel in horizontal lug engaged position.

The breechface being the front end of the slide...Right? Right?

Dropping a loaded round into the chamber and seeing the rim sitting flush with the barrel hood is NOT an indication of safe headspace. It is entirely possible to have the rim flush and still have dangerously excessive headspace.

Headspace gauge lengths are minimum .989 and maximum .920 inch. That means that if the gun will go to battery on the maximum gauge, it has
excessive headspace and is rejected for service. There are very good reasons for that maximum....Dave.

It's academic anyway...The barrel is killed,and I suspect the slide is too.
You can clean it up and make it look nice, but if the gun is fired without
correcting the timing problem, the locking lugs will shear off very soon.
If the barrel has the same type of damage on the corresponding lug surfaces, the slide is also dead meat. Refer to page 82, example A. Example B would also likely apply, since the damage to your barrel greatly exceeds the damage illustrated in the drawing.

You seem to have bought a serviceable frame.

Regards,

Tuner

[Dave Sample]

Jerry writes books: I build guns. We test fired the Norinco. I don't know how it got on this thread, but so be it.
We fired 16 rounds for function and 16 rounds for a group. We had one stovepipe due to the TJ Trigger group. He uses a 26 lb mainspring and does a sear spring with double the tension on all three leaves that I would do, so that the disconnector is very hard to move. I expected worse, but was not unhappy with the results of the first test. I predicted how it work before we shot it.
The barrel is like new now with no flanging on the upper lugs, and no signs of new wear other than what was there when we bought it. The ammo was 200 grain lead semi-waddcutters cast by me and loaded in Federal once fired cases with 5 grains of Winchester 452AA, a very mild, but excellent target load. This powder cuts recoil by about 30% and is a very pleasant load to shoot. The max load is 5.3 grains with the other factors remaining the same. This was my IPSC load at it clocked at 900 FPS with standard deviations that averaged in the 8-10 range. Nice stuff, but no longer available for at least 12 years. ( I still have plenty of it) Ejection was OK with the empty brass landing in a two foot circle 5- 6 feet out to the right. There were no dented cases and the firing pin hit was adequate for a China Girl. I anticipated the low groups as the front sight from off the wall peg that I installed (MGW Stake On) ended up at .187 instead of the .185 I wanted. An easy correction when we settle in to what ammo we will carry in it. It is too soon to make any adjustments to the sight picture. I was pleased that I got the rear sight dead nuts on. Not bad for a first time. huh Tuner?

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/6018575/77958485.jpg
This target was shot at 10 yards and is two 8 round magazines of this ammo. My man Leo is an Ex Ranger and on my payroll for the 1911 Online Class finish work we do after the students have done their job. Then we do ours. He is a good shot and loves to test these guns for me when I am busy in the shop.

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/6018575/77958429.jpg

So far we have not spent one thin dime on this project gun. We have enough parts in our junk bins to do what we want to this thing. This trigger group is coming out today and another less expensive group is going to be installed as this group casts more than the gun and leaves a lot to be desired for my personal use. The pull is wonderful at 5-6 lbs, but you know me Tuner, I like about 56 ounces on my guns. It's a Blinger right now but Adios, Captain Bling. We are going on to bigger, better and cheaper things. I will report on the outcome if you are interested. Otherwise it will be posted on my forum.

[1911Tuner]

Quote:

>Jerry writes books: I build guns.<

mm hmm. mm hmm. I see. :rolleyes:

Just so happens that his definition of headspace coincides with the Army Ordnance Department, and about every other knowledgeable smith that I know of.

'Nother quote:

>> I don't know how it got on this thread, but so be it.<<

Through the link to your forum that you posted.

I'm gonna say it once more. Determining safe headspace is much more involved than dropping a factory cartridge into the chamber and seeing that it sits flush with the barrel hood. It involves the distance between the chamber shoulder...which stops the round from going any farther into the chamber...and the breechface...which stops the case from backing OUT of the chamber when it's fired. This is very important. If the cartridge backs out beyond a very limited distance, the case head loses chamber support, and can explode. This distance must be verified by standard gauges, which are called "standard" because they don't vary. Factory cases do vary, and therefore can't be trusted to determine what is safe and/or serviceable headspace, and what is not.

The chamber can be cut .030 too deep, and the hood filed down to look exactly like the one pictured on your forum...complete with the cartridge in the chamber. According to your giuidelines, that is "About as good as it gets." With a chamber reamed .030 too deep, and the hood filed flush, the gun will chamber and go to battery on a .920 NO GO gauge...which John Browning, a team of engineers at Colt, and the Army Ordnance Department all deemed as unserviceable and/or dangerous long, long ago...and those dimensions haven't changed since that time...to the best of my knowledge.

Please...Go ahead and tell the viewers that those people didn't know their business, and that they wrote those specifications down having never built a pistol, and without understanding how the gun functioned. They wrote those things down just because they thought that it seemed to be "about right."

For the record:

Correct headspace can only be determined by using a standard headspace gauge in the correct manner as outlined.

Regards...

[Old Fuff]

>Jerry writes books: I build guns.<

Jerry Kuhnhausen does indeed write books – shop manuals in particular. The series has covered a number of popular firearms besides the 1911 pistol, and in each case the principal manufacturer(s) of the particular firearm covered have fully and enthusiastically cooperated in assembling the material contained in the books. A lot of it came directly from the company’s in-house shop manuals, and from Jerry’s extensive personal experience.

The procedures explained in the 1911 manual are identical to those practiced by both major manufactures – such as Colt, and by military and police armorers who service and rebuild the .45 pistol. In addition most commercial gunsmith who have been formally trained – either in a manufacturer’s shop or the military services generally, if not exactly, follow what’s in the Kuhnhausen manual.

It can be said with certainty that trained personnel do not check the headspace of a pistol using a randomly selected cartridge. They use go/no go gages. The only cartridges allowed on a workbench are dummies, and they are used to check functioning issues and nothing else.

It may be further said that Mr. Kuhnhausen doesn’t go around “blowing his own horn” about various alleged accomplishments and supposed skills as a “professional” gun builder.

Because he doesn’t have to … :D :D

[Dave Sample]

Tuner: Old Fuff; Take the juice of two quarts of whiskey and call me in the morning. ROTF: LMAO.

[1911Tuner]

We'll all have a cup of cheer...but your outlined method for determining good headspace is wrong and possibly dangerous...and that's a fact, Cap'n.

Cheers!

[Dave Sample]

Bull !

[Jammer Six]

Bull !

Dave, what part is "bull"?

You're confusing me again.

Can you quote the part you're calling bull on, and explain what's wrong with it, please?

Thanks!

[1911Tuner]

I think what it means is that not only Kuhnhausen, but John Moses Browning,
Colt's team of engineers, the Army Ordnance Department, and thousands of armorers and pistolsmiths all over the country....have wasted their time
and money for nearly a hundred years. The tooling companies have scammed us by making and selling fairly expensive headspace gauges that weren't necessary...or maybe that's just the way I'm reading it.

This one will be closed in 5...No sense in letting it go on to meltdown unless
somebody can show a good reason to reopen it.